Are you aware that several states have laws in place to circumvent your Second, Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, relating to guns?
Are you aware that in most of those states it only takes one person to declare you as a danger to yourself or others to have your legally-owned firearms confiscated?
After the declaration and with no chance for consideration or rebuttal, the firearms are removed from your possession. Often, this is done with a surprise, no-knock raid in the pre-dawn hours.
Are you aware that this is being proposed on a national level?
In some states, these “Red Flag” laws may be called Extreme Risk Protection Orders (ERPO) or a Gun Violence Restraining Orders (GVRO).
In most cases, they can be best described as being slightly more selective than the Salem witch trials. Someone reported, therefore, you are guilty until proven innocent.
The dunk tank or the fire pit will determine your innocence.
Before you declare me as being over the top in my hyperbole, what are you going to do when your front door bursts open at 3 a.m., when you know for sure you don’t have any warrants, drugs or the like. I know I am going to assume home invasion and prepare to repel boarders.
In most cases, the SWAT team will have been sent to enforce compliance. They will crash through the door as a stack of armed and armored (mostly) men.
In the fog of a “home invasion,” people (most likely me) will die. Don’t even think about what will happen to my dog.
Maryland passed such a law in mid-October 2018. They have already used it at least 9 times as of the publishing of this article. In those nine seizures, one has already been fatal to a citizen.
I realize it is a small sample set, but two things concern me. First, the issuing judge and Maryland law enforcement community stated, “This is proof the law is working.”
Did we initiate a Bureau of Pre-Crime while I wasn’t looking? Second, at this rate over 350 people will have their right to possess a firearm removed through extra judicial means, in the first year and roughly 35 people will be dead because of it.
Even if you take the word of the partisan group Gun Violence Archive, a group that claims there have been 307 mass shootings in the first 312 days of 2018.
Of course, they include every incident of gang violence, bank robbery and drive-by shooting as part of their statistics. Even inflating the numbers like they do, only gets them to 22 “mass shooting” victims in Maryland in 2018.
If we exclude Baltimore from the rest of Maryland, that number drops to three. Have you seen the gang violence statistics for Baltimore? I digress.
So, by my math, they are willing to have roughly 50% more people die keeping “mass shootings” from happening? I guess, if the correct people (gun owners) are dying, it isn’t a bad thing to them.
Red Flag Laws’ Infringement
Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
As most of you know, the Fourth Amendment and to some degree the Fourteenth have been under assault. Supreme Court deference to the state and its investigatory powers is strongly documented.
- Terry v. Ohio – Basically the “frisk at will” exemption
- Florida v. Bostick – The “he didn’t stop us from searching” exemption
- Schneckloth v. Bustamonte – An uninformed citizen is a legally searched citizen
- Mapp v. Ohio – We got the exclusionary rule. In other words, if the search is illegal, then any evidence obtained is excluded from use in court.
This would be good news, except; Herring v. U.S. gives law enforcement the “good faith” exemption. Simply stated, if the police make a procedural mistake the fall out is on you, not them.
Conclusion
All of the above cases are my way of pointing out that the Supreme Court is unlikely to limit or strike down these new red flag laws.
My fellow patriots, constitutional conservatives, and gun people; get off your butts and make sure your state is not attempting to pass such laws.
If they are, get moving and work to pressure your (theoretical) representatives to follow the letter and intent of the Constitution and vote these travesties down.
As of the end of 2018, 13 states had passed red flag laws. Mostly the usual suspects on the left coast and New England; but, Florida is also on that list. Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio are currently considering such rubbish.
You have been warned.
Do you have red flag laws in your state? Do you consider red flag laws a necessary evil or simply an evil? Share your answers in the comment section.
I am a former Marine, and a Life Member of the NRA. I strongly stand for the 2nd Amendment, and in my state of Washington our gun rights are recognized under state constitution (for now). But in our state a mentally unstable person is not allowed to own or possess firearms. I do not subscribe to the hysteria generated by ‘mass shooting’ events that affect a fraction of a percent of Americans, but I do believe there are situations where a person’s family or close associates know when a person is coming unhinged by a mental health problem or extreme emotional state that may lead to that person killing someone. Are we to expect that the victim must accept being dead so that we can then disarm the mentally unstable perpetrator? I say that is not a reasonable expectation, and if we know a person might be about to commit a homicide, we should take action. I am not talking about ‘Pre-Crime’ as the post suggests, and I can’t relate to any specifics about such laws in states other than my own. That being said, I will relate personal experience in this matter. My father is 80, has been diagnosed by multiple physicians as having dementia. It has progressed over the last 5 years. Because of his age and declining mental condition, including emotional control, his doctor had his driver’s license pulled. This made him very upset, such that for almost a year he talked about killing his doctor. We treated it as hyperbole, but one day he told my brother that he “didn’t have much time left, going to have to take care of that doctor very soon.” Up to this point, he hasn’t been convicted of any crime, but he was committing one every time he threatened to kill his doctor. At this point my brother and I felt, because of his dementia, that we couldn’t confidently say that Dad wouldn’t make good on this threat. He has guns, including a .357 Magnum revolver that can fit in a pocket. He could take it to his next appointment and make good on the threats. We decided that invoking the Extreme-Risk Protection Order law that just passed in Washington. I had to go before a judge with sworn statements from my brother and with the dementia diagnosis, and she grilled me for about 20 minutes before agreeing to the temporary order. The temporary order is only good for 2 weeks. We would have to appear again within two weeks for a hearing on a permanent order (1 year). The Sheriff served the warrant, but because this is a civil proceeding in our state, they cannot enter his property to enforce the order. No SWAT team is sent, no door broken. In fact, he could refuse to surrender his weapons to the police, and they have to walk away. We arranged for him to go to town with me, and the Sheriff stopped us a block from his house. They did this to be able to contact him outside the home to serve him the subpoena to appear in court and the temporary order. They do this to avoid a situation where a person becomes angry and responds by grabbing a gun in their home and that leads to a shootout where someone dies. They don’t want to shoot someone while serving this paperwork because they are cognizant that the individual has not been convicted of anything, and they are not in a position to forcibly enter the residence. They talked with him and he admitted to them what firearms he owns, and admitted making the death threats. The deputies asked him if he would agree to them entering his home and taking the firearms, as well as relinquishing his CPP temporarily. He wasn’t too happy about it, but agreed, and allowed us to collect the guns. This is an experience I did not enjoy. My Dad lives in a rural location where his home is not visible from the road or his neighbor’s homes, and I don’t like him not having the security of a firearm. But I also could no longer risk him killing his doctor and my brother and I joining him in prison because we didn’t report his threats. It all went peacefully, and he had his hearing in 2 weeks time to make his own argument against the order. As I stated before, the deputies stated if he refused to hand over the guns, there was nothing they could do. However, not following a court order may have it’s own consequences. Anyway, we went to court and the judge again questioned me extensively, then let Dad speak for himself and then asked him questions for some time before coming to a decision. I had told the judge that while his doctor had expressed the opinion my dad should be in a secure memory-care facility, I was not convinced that step was yet necessary and suggested some testing that would help Dad and the family really know where Dad is mentally. Dad initially was agreeable, and so the judge issued the 1-year order plus this testing. She told Dad that if he got the testing he could return sooner than a year to request the order be lifted sooner and get his firearms back. I feel this is a good example of a situation where this law is doing what it should be doing. My Dad’s case was one of the first in Washington. Everyone in the system is figuring out how to administer it. Since, Dad has now decided not to have the testing, and has just resolved himself to not getting them back. That is unfortunate. I was hoping that we could get a better diagnosis that might provide for the return of his weapons sooner. We have got him another doctor so hopefully he will lose his mental fixation at getting even with his old doctor. In a year, if nothing has changed, and his condition continues to deteriorate, we will be faced with returning to court to get a new order. At that point they may release the firearms to myself or my brother. Now our case involves a prior medical diagnosis of a progressive mental disorder, so it accomplishes the goal of preceding law against the mentally ill having firearms. There are going to be cases less cut-and-dried, and only the future will reveal how it works out in our state. But my experience was that the courts were not in a hurry to take away Dad’s guns. The judge seemed as concerned about his rights as she was about the risks he posed with his death threats + access to firearms. I hope that the law continues to be used with that concern for the gun owner’s rights.
I am glad to see that my post reappeared today. It was missing earlier in the morning. I post things that I know directly from my life experiences, I do not incite violence and I do not call for hatred.
The issue regarding firearms and related topics is very close to my heart as my elderly father is still alive and he remembers how the “armed communist Bolsheviks” came in the middle of the night and threw my father and his family out from the family residence and took the family business by force. The young communist officer was jewish and the enforcers were young uneducated thug dumbed down Russians. This young officer examined my grandfather’s brothers hands and determined on the spot that his hands were not worn down enough / calloused enough by hard labor and that alone made him the enemy of the communist state. This young jew officer ordered that my grandfather’s brother be torn apart and dragged by two horses and since the people of the small town / village were already disarmed nobody could do anything. The ones that tried to interfere had their skulls bashed in by the butt stocks of the heavy Mauser like rifles. When I look at the news and the names of our politicians that are constantly promoting gun-control (FEINSTEIN, BLOOMBERG, SCHUMMER, BLUMENTHAL, LEVIN, STEINBERG, etc., etc.) I as well as my elderly father have this strange uneasy feeling that the people of the same tribe are up to their communist shenanigans here in the United States. It would be great to see the regular jewish population go against these jewish politicians instead of voting for these anti-American clowns because they are the members of the same tribe. AMERICANS need to put aside their tribal loyalties and unite to drive out these social communists out of our government. Just because the crooked politician is a member of your tribe does not mean that you should vote or support that individual. It should always be America first. and foremost. This is the problem we are facing right now. People feel obligated to vote for their kind due to some perceived loyalty. Again, the only thing that should matter is America first no matter where people came from. Also we must keep a closer eye on these so called “Secret Societies” whether it be the Scottish-Rite Freemasons, the B’nai B’rith Freemasons, the Skull and Bonesmen, etc., etc. We must also do all that we can to do away with the excuse, “It is a Matter of National Security.” There is a time and place for such things but this is often times used as a TOOL to end any meaningful inquiry and thorough investigation. We are just told to accept things because the people in power said so. Not so fast, let us take a thorough in-depth look at things, especially these so called mass school shootings for instance, and determine for ourselves. No just some laughing parents like “Robbie Parker”, some yellow police tape, a few police vehicles with flashing lights, and alleged witnesses that do not suffer any hearing damage as a result of all this loud-decibel filled shots fired. I haven’t seen one alleged witness state that he / she has problems hearing things due to ringing in the ears from all the alleged shots. Yellow police tape, numerous lit candles and teddy bears, and an immediate call to eliminate firearms. Really??? God Bless America, Long Live the Republic.
You make my point about generalization. Were the majority of Bolsheviks Jewish? I know many of them were, but there were millions of Russian who were not, but were still involved in the Russian revolution. There were so many factions fighting for dominance at that time, who were allied against the Tsar, that after gaining control, they began to eat each other. Lenin won by murdering most of the other factions. And then again, you had Jewish thugs, criminals really, who assisted the Nazis in keeping order in the Ghettos and camps. And Jewish gangsters. But classifying all members of a certain religion or ethnicity as culpable, based on the bad conduct of some is just childishly simple and inane. I suggest your read THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION A New History By Sean McMeekin to develop a good insight and perspective or the diversity of the revolutionists. It will also enlighten you as to the many underhanded plots and schemes of some of the superpowers of the day. A most enlightening presage of the second world war. And who was bankrolling the revolution and the German army also. I don’t question your statements, I only suggest that you lack perspective on the matter, and hope to broaden your exposure to the facts.
IF…..your 2nd Amendment right can be nullified because of what you might do, then why cannot your 1st Amendment right be nullified for what you might say? With the recognition of “hate crimes”, why cannot one loose his /her right to speech because they MIGHT denigrate a particular race and/or religion.
This is only the beginning of the final stage of decline for the Un-United States of America, what a shame.
Unless you happen to be a member of the tribe of so called (((chosen ones))). I know of somebody first hand, have known this individual for many years. This individual has several degrees including a post graduate. This individual does not work and has everything purchased by well to do parents. The house, the luxury car (third vehicle as he crashed two vehicles and caused property damage to other people in the first two DUIs), many toys and items, etc. About 2 to 3 years ago this individual while under influence sent a text message to parents stating that they would be met with death at his hands. The police Dept. arrested this individual, confiscated this individuals weapons, and filed charges. By the way this was this individuals third DUI / DWI and multiple arrests for trespassing, harassment, assault and related issues. He paid the bail because this individual had memorized the co-applicant credit card number and was let out. Never spent a full day in jail!!! Always got released the next morning or bailed out using the co-credit card that this individual holds with his parents. The parents actually wrote a letter to the police and specifically indicated that, “their son has a history of psychological issues since childhood and that they believe that their kid could actually be a perpetrator of a mass shooting, etc.” So the parents finally did their job by informing on their precious little one after so many years of letting this individual slide on this rather serious issues. Guess what, he eventually got some years summary probation with some monitoring in the beginning, parents paid and installed the DUI blow device in his luxury car so that he can drive and commute like any of us. The icing on the cake is that Law Enforcement gave this individual back all of his firearms less magazines, ammunition, and they stole One very expensive Optic worth several thousands of dollars. By the way he is a member of the (((chosen tribe))) not observant as far as I know but who knows what goes on behind the scenes. The point is that if this happened to any other person they would be rotting away in the jail or prison and most certainly no firearms would be returned given the circumstances. Not to mention that California passed a law several years ago that requires a 2nd DUI offender to serve time in jail. None of this applied to this individual!!! The courts and law enforcement threw out all the rules and basically this individual is driving around with the DUI blow thing as if nothing. I will not disclose this individuals name because this individual helped me in time of need some years ago for which I am very grateful. It just makes me sick to my stomach how differently the people of the (((chosen tribe))) are treated than the rest of the population!!! No hatred here just the facts that show what kind of justice system we live in and the people that run this corrupt system.
It is my contention that these kinds of laws need more than one reporting party. I think it should require a minimum of three reporting persons and then once reported the gun owner should be interviewed by a qualified psychologist to determine if the reporting parties are correct before ANY action is taken to remove a person’s guns. This kind of law without those extra steps is subject to abuse, someone can make a report just because they have a vendetta or just didn’t like something the person said or looked like against the person, something like a lefty seeing someone wearing a MAGA hat.
The incidence with these bozos that go out and create mayhem have caused a great deal of frustration to the public in general; I can see why they go off half cocked and pass such draconian laws. They could make it much better if they simply asked a person suspected of losing it to meet an LEO at another location where both feel safe, and detain them there until the firearms are removed. BUT the catch should be that this is a TEMPORARY condition until the sanity or presence of mind of the individual is fully determined, and put an automatic time limit on how long the LEA can hold the weapons. Then they should automatically go back to the individual when no legal reason is determined why they shouldn’t have all their rights. I know this is walking a thin line of freedom vs despotism, but as long as a very firm wording of the law leaves no room for taking someone’s rights without due process, then at least it could be said to be. more fair than what we have now.
Let’s face it – the public has been whipped into a frenzy by these incidents. and the media is partly at fault for giving otherwise unstable people the idea to gain notoriety at any cost on the news. And really how many times have we found out someone who is armed isn’t legally supposed to be that way; so at least this would give a safer determination system to help in pubic safety. Don’t get me wrong, it think most of these laws should be abolished, but I also think they need to improve the NCIC reporting system so that verified nut cases can’t slip under the radar, and some form of control of the questionable suspects made available to LEOs with as little interruption of 2nd Amendment rights in violation.
Waco was a good example of how it could have gone down better when the county Sheriff, who had the trust of the Branch Davidians made an offer to go and talk to their leader and detain him, and separate him from his followers so no escalation of tensions would occur. The outcome would have been much more peaceful and the BATF could have investigated any arms violations without an escalation of tension at the compound. Historians have been in agreement with that for decades.
JCitizen, I think when you or anyone else justifies people taking draconian measures because they are frustrated with these bozos who go around shooting people is just plain wrong. Most of this nonsense is media driven because people simply want to take away our guns. No one seems to get nearly as upset by illegal immigrants coming to this country selling drugs which destroy people’s lives, raping, murdering etc etc. To the contrary those same people and the media don’t even want to address the fact that many of these folks are multiple offenders and have been kicked out of the Country more than once. No one seems to get overly wrought about far more deaths by both prescription drugs, illicit drugs and car accidents than die in all of these mass shootings. People also don’t realize that most gun deaths are suicides not homicides. There is absolutely no excuse for this type of focus when most people agree that this is a mental health issue, that as long as due process is provided there can be effective mechanism put in place to reduce these types of crimes which are not excessive compared to the many other illegal acts resulting in people dying yearly. Sorry this is just more BS
This is an Infringement on our God Given Rights, any attempt to Confiscate my Firearms will be met with Brute Force. I will not sit idly by as my rights are taken away from me by a Government turned Tyrannical. Going to start a Revolution. Show no Quarter to Traitors. Put them all to the sword.
No such law in TX …. yet. I am not completely clear on it, but I think the Veterans Administration may have such a policy though .. which I assume would have nationwide jurisdiction(?) Lot’s of veterans with PTSD. I am considering hiding my guns. Considering it very seriously.
The red flag laws of today sound a helluva lot like how the Nazis operated in Europe back in the 30s. I really see no difference at all. These laws, by default, make judges into juries and LEOs into executioners. Not American. On another note, what happens to a false accuser who has forced the removal of weapons and/or death by cop of an innocent person? Nothing? Seems like a ‘conspiracy to commit murder’ charge would be appropriate at a minimum.
Illinois unfortunately has had the red flag law in effect since 1/1/2019.
I challenge every single one of the enforcement agencies to carry out these pre-dawn, no-knock raids on the demonrats that have pushed for, funded and passed these grossly unconstitutional laws. I DARE you to carry out these raids on their mansions!!!! I DARE YOU!!!
Hey, I like that attitude. You could be my wing man any day. They already came to my residence twice but they were looking for different subjects. Wrong info on their part. My head sticking out while the rest of my body behind the door with a .44 Magnum.I did cooperate with all means. Really scary situation. Good luck and be safe to you my friend.
This development is absolutely frightening. With the number of new policing and investigative control agencies being established almost daily in the US The right to change, control,and protect yourself from our own chosen system of government, has already slipped away. Representation was never meant to be a permanent occupation. Time to get rid of these evil controlling elete people,and their complicit propaganda media monopolies. Support, inform and organize like minded people and vote. If we could only acquire an un-corrupted powerfully dedicated media platform to support absolute truth and freedom. Even the NRA has become corrupted by ineffectual leadership and GREED.I know that there intelligent freedom minded people, capable of saving our freedom and our country. PLEASE please unite and HELP!
These laws have brought fear to the educated. We moved homes recently and my girlfriend was wondering why I moved my collection at night and then convinced the Safe movers with an extra grand to do the same with my safe. While I am friendly with my neighbors and on good terms with people I no longer let anyone know that I am a collector because all it takes is one person to assume the wrong thing and you have problems.
Sad because part of the joy of having a collection is being able to share it with others. Not hiding it in the dark for fear of others.
You should own as many as you want. Just cooperate and give up the hardware they want to take away from you. Be tactful about these situations and keep your other Hardware some place else where only you know where they’re at?????????
I have moved a lot with my long guns collection over the years I move mine in old golf bags the ones from the 70s like rodney danferfield used you can get en at garage sales for 5$ the new neighbors think your crazy because of the 15 sets of golf clubs but that’s better then them seeing 20 long gun cases going up the stairs into the apartment
One time a friend helping me decided to leave a set of “golf clubs “in his truck I noticed this but did not say anything he got them home and called me to tell me he would be right back and he had no idea what he was moving
I get weird looks when I go to the range some times but usually people laugh as I use a big wheeled bag right out of caddy shack and start pulling rifles out
Very cleaver and even funnier!!! You must get a real hoot out of the looks you get at the gun range. Great post.
In the old Soviet days, they would declare you insane and make you disappear. Now we declare you dangerous and make your guns disappear.
I’m not sure how taking guns away neutralizes somebody – seems to me if you steal a “dangerous” person’s property, they’re just going to be enraged and become more dangerous – and still have access to cars, knives, ball bats, claw hammers, … You could drive a truck through the holes in Red Flag logic.
A gun grab by any other name.
In the old Soviet days, they would declare you crazy and make you disappear. Now we declare you dangerous and make your guns disappear.
I’m not sure how taking guns away neutralizes somebody – seems to me if you steal a “dangerous” person’s property, they’re just going to be enraged and become more dangerous – and still have access to cars, knives, ball bats, claw hammers, … You could drive a truck through the holes in Red Flag logic.
A gun grab by any other name.
What the hell ever happened with a “Police Stakeout”? Arrest on the way into work etc.? Due to the possibilities of a good armed citizen, I would not want to participate in a No Knock raid if I was a LEO. Po Po’s need to be de-militarized as we already have a standing military in place. Do the proper Police work to take a suspect out in the open when he probably is not heavily armed. Oh, but wait, they are protecting the individual from himself, right?
[] It’s Janet Reno and Waco all over again – Could Have nabbed him @WaLMarT but let’s make a show-of-force because it suits Our Socialist Narrative Agenda!!!! You Are AfterALL – Guilty UntiL Proven Innocent In ALL Aspects If WE Deem iT SO! [how many sheeples as of today would take a page from the Nazi SS and Turn Against Their Neighbor? – I Dare To Shutter At The Thought of Those Being LED Astray By False Narratives – It’s Actually Quit Frightening! The Young’ns Continually Being Propagandized To – And They Are Buying Into The Fallacy – HoW Do We As Constitutionalists Fight This????
Janet be looking across at Stalin, FDR, Bush, Adolf, Woodrow, …, awaiting her turn to jump into the Lake ‘O Fire. Have to thank God for His judgement when I think of those who shed other’s blood for no just cause, but for greed and brief power.
Utah was just considering this BS also!!!! Really? Utah? Yup Commifornia is coming to a state near you!!
This is an extremely complex problem to be sure. But these “Red Flag” laws are an abomination, subject to huge abuse. If the person filing the allegations is to be anonymous (?), even more so. Complainants should be required to testy before a judge, under oath, swearing to facts which support their suspicions or concerns. They should be required to convince the court, in advance, that the process should begin.
I spent 26 years in law enforcement, and am fully aware of the ends people will go to to get even with another person for perceived slights or defeats. There must be due process before taking steps which may be detrimental to or infringe on an innocent persons rights.
‘The who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it,’ or some such. Remember your history; confiscation squads of Nazi Germany, kicking in doors, taking all firearms, arresting, or killing those foolish enough to resist. Don’t say; “This is America, it could never happen here!” WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!! It is happening. And as the article says; ‘People are going to die.’ Law enforcement, sent to rob (yes ROB, taking your property by force is ROBBERY!,) you of your weapons and gun owners who will resist the INVASION of their homes and the ILLEGAL confiscation of their property. It isn’t; Welcome to 1984, its: welcome to Nazi Germany, or Fascist Italy!
Our Law Making Politicians are pushing this country daily closer and closer into rebellion and civil war. One day there will be an uprising by the millions and those on the left will have entered the “OH SHIT” moment, unprepared and defenseless. The 2 million “Armed” man/woman march is written on every towns political walls pushing to disarm the people of our country. Personally I would not like to be sitting inside “every towns” government buildings with 10’s of to 100’s of thousands of armed gun owners standing ground to fight for our constitutional rights. Everyday they impose new laws to take away our rights is another loss to our freedoms! We need to come together in solidarity to fight for our freedom’s people! As the Beatle’s sang Come Together Right Now!
Your map may not be accurate.
https://www.thetrace.org/2018/03/red-flag-laws-pending-bills-tracker-nra/
This was updated today according to the note
Thanks, my state only has a proposal, so you are correct, it hasn’t been passed yet. I read the proposal and the protection orders have to be proven in a court of law before the protection orders can be given, so the plaintiff better have good reason and proof and witnesses before the judge will execute such an order. The proposal seems well written and all 2nd Amendment rights preserved by due process.
JCitizen, you didn’t mention if the proposal allows the person being reported to be represented before any determination is made to remove their firearms. If not, I woiuldn’t consider that due process because the person being accused has not had the opportunity to defend themselves before a decision is made regardless of what other people claim or say.
I live in Colorado where they are now considering Reg Flag Laws. Colorado is also a Make My Day State and anyone who comes into my home without being invited and puts two feet inside the threshold of my doorway will be dealt with under the provisions of Make My Day and there will be no exceptions. So we will see if one law tops the other.
Even people with who are judged to be mentally incompetent get the opportunity to be represented before they are so judged. This is nothing but a gun grab and if necessary we should be willing to go to war over this transgression. This is exactly one of the things the British did in a similar way that caused the Colonists to rebel. So now we are back at it with our own people disavowing the Constitution and why it was written in the manner it was.
My front door has been reinforced heavily to prevent being kicked in. It would take explosives to bust in. By then, my dogs would have barked out warnings, my motion detector cameras would have sounded the alarm, my shotgun and others would be at the ready. No knock people coming in uninvited get welcomed heavily, at their peril. Home invasion not welcome in my home, by anyone.
Welcome to 1984.
I have been a cop and I have been a prosecutor and have seen lots of crazies. My comment is that if the person is so dangerous, they should immediately be stripped of any guns that they have, they should also not be allowed on the street, but put into a 30 day institution for observation and mental assessment. I vividly recall a fellow that attacked a barking dog with a ball bat, because the dog was barking. He broke dogs jaw, then chased it down the road and beat it to death while nearby children watched. He looked the judge in the eye and said it was totally appropriate to beat dogs to death will ball bats for barking. Point is, he should not be on the street and should not have access to things like ball bats or guns or knives. I agree we should be very cautious about red flag laws and should instead strengthen mental health laws.
As a law enforcement officer you probably took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. I assume you are including due process when you are advocating to lock up these crazies. There is an old saying that it is better to let a guilty person go free than incarcerate and innocent person and we see the damage done to folks where the so called justice system fails to take the time needed to get it right. In the case of Red Flag Laws think of all the things that could go bad for an innocent person if for no other reason than someone wants to get even with them for something. Puts all innocent people in a potentially precarious position. Due process can help sort out the right from the wrong decisions.
Mr. “I AM THE LAW Old gringo”, does or would that include kitchen knives, chainsaws, lawnmower blades (removed for sharpening), machetes, tree limb removal blades, hammers, pipes, BaseBall bats, softball bats, 2×4’s, axes, axe handles, meat tenderizers, heavy as trays, large rocks, stones, bricks, cinder blocks AND OF COURSE SHARP POINTY STICKS ?
I echo the call for due process. It is the foundation of our justice system and MUST be adhered to in all cases. A single accusation must not be the cause of a person losing his or her rights. A court hearing is a must. The accused must be given a chance to dispute the charge. A “innocent until proven guilty” approach must be followed. A false accusation must be punished severely to dissuade folks from malicious or false accusations. Unless we treat people with respect, this country will head into tyranny.
Red Flag Laws, should they be passed, should be so encumbered with the protections provided by the Second, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments that they cannot be used.
Most every state has some form of ‘red flag’ type law on their books, but as you suggest they are encumbered by pesky details like due process and such. This new version makes it much simpler to have the order written. Most anyone can make the claim of you being a danger, you get no chance to defend yourself and will be subjected to a lengthy and expensive legal battle to get your weapons back. Meanwhile the accuser gets to walk away scott free, and I imagine snickering.
The title of Gordo Liddy’s second book is, “When I Was a Kid, This Was a Free Country” and as a 1945 vintage, it was when I was a kid too.
Our Founders did provide a solution though:
“That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.”
the Government, and local law enforcement will be making a huge mistake, in undermining its citizens and stripping them of their constitutional rights. They should be worried, as their are several times more professional civilian shooters and even more very experienced former vets that could make very short work of a tyrannical government. Perhaps that’s the angle they are using to pursue red flag laws. Either way I’ve always told my spouse, the moment I decide another man is worth my going to jail over, that man will cease to exist.
I agree wholeheartedly, our children are and have been trained by libral thinking teachers. Politicians and radical leftist groups supported by globalist money have been attacking our rights for decades. When is enough, enough. We each try to protect our own homes and families but how do we protect our country? We all seem to think we can protect our homes, is this really possible? Think SWAT teams with the latest tech at their disposal, drones, thermal imaging, night vision, flash bang and such. We are going to be killed off one at a time …..legally….and there will be nothing each one of us can do about it individually. The scenario above is reality now, sure its just a few here and there but ask yourselves where we will be in 5-10 yrs if liberals win all chambers of government. We are citizens in denial, the tsunami is coming as sure as the sun comes up. Seriously, think about it.
I’ll take a couple with me before I go down have to come up my stairs before you can reach me and my family very narrow corridor. You break my door down I’m gunning for ya will protect my family with my life. Red Flag Laws basically makes Police useless no more investigating and protecting citizens because now they can predict crimes before they happen and come get you. Now I feel real safe and cozy…..
wish I had such a choke point in my house … I’d arm a motion sensor at the bottom as the last one up for the night and wire it to a shotgun aimed at crotch level for the bottom step, with another alarm control panel at the top, of course, to disarm it in the morning before anyone goes downstairs …. maybe a couple claymores under the floor too
All it takes is a disgruntled neighbor or ex girlfriend to want revenge & you wind up on a slab in the morgue alongside the first wave of SWAT team members. The police are forced to either become #1 Jobless, for dereliction of duty (for refusing to skirt the Constitution of the United States of America). …and behind #2 we have Judge Dredds (Judge, Jury & executioner.)
WHAT’S NEXT? FARTING COWS?
When I queried my local police chief (I know him well), about how he and his men would approach my house. His reply ” It depends on why WE were there”. I said, “chief here is a warning for you, show up after sunset and before daylight and you had better patiently wait at the door until I open it. Otherwise at the sound of the battering ram hitting the door, some one is going to die before you get me.” I have maintained that if we should lose any part of the first 4 amendments, the rest will follow shortly.