News

Congress Proposes Gun Control Legislation Broadening Meaning of Armor Piercing

.223 NATO Lake City M855 FMJ 62 Grain Steel Penetrator Ammo

So many platitudes come to mind, “How do you know a politician is lying?” “If you like your doctor…” Pro Second Amendment forces took a quick, but deserving, victory lap when the ATF admitted it had never encountered such a response to a call for open comment regarding a proposed action. Cheaper Than Dirt!’s readers as well as many of those from other pro-gun organizations rallied forces and our collective voice made a difference—to the ATF. However, there are others we need to be concerned with.

.223 NATO Lake City M855 FMJ 62-Grain Steel Penetrator Ammo
Two decades ago the ATF issued a report stating M855 ammunition was not more dangerous than other types of ammunition and did not need additional regulation.

During the comment period, The White House had its spokespeople out lobbying, spreading half-truths and misdirecting the public. This leaves little doubt that the President was likely behind the ATF’s action. Regardless of your political affiliation, a quick history check will show the current administration does not take a loss lightly. In fact, rather than listening to the voice of the people, the administration has shown a preference to double down by increasing the depth of legislation, harden its’ resolve and find an alternate channel to advance its agenda.

Recently, the Director of the ATF stepped down amidst the controversy generated by the attempt to ban M855 (Green Tip) ammunition. Whether it was due to the pressure of the people or the displeasure of the administration… Either way, within a week, U.S. Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) announced he intends to introduce legislation to “extend the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to include all bullets that can pierce body armor and be used in handguns.” This is not a surprise or something the antis have not tried in the past.

In fact, the Shooter’s Log predicted this weeks ago. The gun control crowd will not stop. With each defeat, they up the rhetoric and demand legislation that is more egregious in an effort to chisel away at our rights. This latest effort follows a pattern stretching back to at least the early 1980s. In the early ’80s, the anti gunners seized on new technology and mislabeled Teflon-coated ammo as “cop killers” to appeal to the uninformed public and pull at their emotions. Legislation quickly followed proposing a ban on any bullet capable of penetrating soft body armor.

This was during the Regan years and the Secretary of the Treasury and Justice Department weighed in. (Although it was the Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations are delegated to the Technology Branch of ATF). Gun rights organizations such as the NRA made the voice of the people heard as well. The truth came out—virtually all centerfire rifle ammunition will defeat soft body armor. The same is true of a significant amount of centerfire pistol ammunition.

The compromise was to pass legislation outlining the design and the materials used as the determining factors. The M855 ammunition was added to the list of banned ammunition, even though it did not actually fit the ATF’s own definition of “armor-piercing” based on its construction (That will be explained later in this article.) The matter was challenged and reviewed. The ATF compromised and made a sporting exemption, which made the M855 ammunition legal again. While the exemption was not a perfect compromise, and many did not want a compromise at all, the “Sporting Exemption” made allowances for future designs that an all out ruling on M855 alone would not.

British Soldier Wearing Osprey MK4 Armor Carrier
Body armor is rated to identify the caliber it would normally defeat. However, most all centerfire rifle ammunition will defeat soft body armor.

1994 brought us the Crime Bill also known as the Assault Weapons Ban. President Clinton (D) and Charles Schumer (D-NY) did not plan to stop there. Within the anti-terrorism legislation was a proposed performance-based bullet ban, and our rights were once again threatened. Interestingly enough, in this case it was the BATFE that came to the rescue of gun owners. The BATFE issued a report concluding, “…existing laws are working, no additional legislation regarding such laws is necessary.” The original definition from the 1980s, 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B), “The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill, primarily by the addition of “bullets intended to be used in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight.”

Incidentally, for those who may not know, the M855 ammunition in question uses a lead core with a steel cone. By definition, this means M855 ammunition never should have been subject to 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B). Lead is not on the list of metals.

This begs the question why, even though not a single incident of M855 ammunition being used unlawfully against law enforcement could be cited, would the ATF suddenly find it necessary to propose a ban against green tip ammunition? The excuse is the ability to fire M855 green tip ammunition from an AR-15 pistol—even though in nearly four decades the FBI statistics do not show a single crime being committed with a pistol capable of firing M855 or any other .223/5.56 ammunition!

As earlier stated, politicians, particularly under the current administration, are not persuaded by facts or the will of the people. Instead of realizing a mistake and letting it quietly die, they would rather double down and encroach on our rights even further. Instead of M855 ammunition, which would have only set precedent and been a steppingstone anyway, legislators are introducing legislation that would effectively ban most, if not all, centerfire ammunition—there is the double down!

Do Civilians Have a Need?

What about our Second Amendment freedoms? Anyone can order body armor off the Internet. While the FBI has not documented a single use of M855 against law enforcement for nefarious purposes, it has documented criminals owning and using body armor unlawfully. Law-abiding citizens still have a right to self-defense against such threats. If those law-abiding citizens choose M855 for self-defense or sporting purposes, no one should be stopping them in a backhanded attempt at gun control.

What’s Next?

It is hard to determine the chances of the proposed legislation gaining any traction in Congress. If history is an indicator, it will not go far. However, that is not a risk gun owners can tolerate. Even more concerning in that case, if the pattern holds true and the President’s agenda is not passed by the legislature, the President has promised to “go it alone and do it through executive order” with his pen and his phone. This is not going to go away.

That is an ominous threat to the future of the Second Amendment, but we can only respond to legislation as it materializes. Until then, we need to support pro Second Amendment organizations and remain vigilant.

Will M855 or all centerfire ammunition be banned? Share your thoughts or suggestions in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (214)

  1. If the Republicans are as pro-gun as they say, then there is nothing to worry about since they control both houses. If this bill or something like it passes, then you know where the “so-called” pro-gun party REALLY stands.

    1. Couldn’t agree more! Wish people would realize this. Worst thing is, they will just blame the president and re elect their same state reps.

  2. It is only a nation with no free speech when people like yourself run away because you are intimidated. The liberal media has abrogated their first amendment rights and I believe you are doing the same. If you don’t stand solid for what you believe in it will only make matters worse. If you saw some of the stuff that I send to the Politicians you would think I was writing you from a Gulag somewhere. I never threaten except to tell them I will not vote or donate to them but I tell them exactly how I feel and most of the time its not good. If they don’t like it, tuff.

  3. I quit writing for different conservative/ Constitutionalist news and message magazines because of the gradual takeover by elements of anti- Jew/Israel and racist organizations. I admit mostly from fear of Gov Listing me as being affiliated with not yet then hate groups.
    Having seen publications attacked for even the minutest criticism’s of anything Israel or of its peoples interest as well; I would hope that even this commercial would not have to be Federalized Any more than it already is.
    Lets remember this is no longer a land of free
    speech.

  4. Oh and for the record, I grew up on Long Island NY in a predominantly Italian/Jewish area and quite frankly I stand by my Jewish friends in all things.
    Good people with good values.

  5. Just curious how did a discussion on armor piercing rounds turned into a debate on Israel? Aren’t you folks a bit off topic?

  6. Jeff, once again I’m on your side. Morris sounds like another bleeding here demogogue. When Israel is turned into a radioactive parking lot who do you think those radical Muslims will turn their sites on next. Here’s a news flash for you. It won’t be on the rest of the Middle East. You’ll convert and be speaking Arabic or you’ll die.

    1. You sound like a jewlover. Why should we do ANYTHING for those jew ragheads? What have they ever done for US???

  7. I have been saying for years that Obama will fabricate a reason to declare Martial Law and attempt to keep himself in office beyond 2016. Big miscalculation by the way since military and law enforcement in general hate the guy for constantly throwing them under the bus and his comments that were directly responsible for the deaths of a number of police officers. Operation Jade Helm 15 is a good example of what he is trying to do. Research it.

  8. Dprato, I guess there’s no convincing you, but I keep trying because it should be so simple. Your own words show your erroneous thinking. You don’t care what I do with MY money, well good, if what I paid into social security is my money, I want it back, all of it right now. I could do that if were the bank example you use in your argument. I get it, you paid into it for 40 years and you want your money back. I do too. True, we don’t live in a full blown, socialist state (yet), but social security is a government mandated, tax funded, socialist program. There are degrees of just about everything and there is a significant degree of socialism in social security. If you like social security and agree with it, fine, just say that and argue for it’s merits and why you think we need it. But comparing it to a bank account and saying “it’s still my money” is just ingenuous at best or ignorant at worst.

  9. Obama will not give up his dream to destroy America, and he knows gun control legislation is the FIRST THING HE MUST DO. I am SICK, SICK, SICK of the damn democrats pushing this agenda, vote them out and show that America still cares about our FREEDOM!

    1. I am beginning to believe that Obama will REFUSE to step down as president… that he may even suspend elections come 2016. He will have to manufacture some kind of emergency in order to declare martial law. Keep your eye on the bottom feeding slimeball!

    1. Bill,
      That would depend on the language and context of the comment. We try to be as open with our discussion as possible, but links to competitors and certain types of speech are moderated. ~Dave Dolbee

  10. I think it is a waste of energy to be arguing amongst the group here about the issue. When ATFE asked for comments they were inundated by both House and Senate members telling them they opposed the ATFE proposal. This bill that is sponsored by Democrats in particular has no chance of passing in either house. So not to worry. We have beaten them down on every major issue and there are more guns and ammo in the hands of 2nd Amendment Supporters than ever before including our sisters, wives and girlfriends. Over 5 million strong and climbing. You should be more concerned about Jade Helm 15 and I would urge you to
    research it and make your own decision what the government is actually doing. Is it a real military drill being conducted for its stated purpose or an exercise to practice scenarios for martial law and the suppression of US Citizens should be have a civil war in this Country. That my friends is the real threat. I expect Obama will fabricate a reason to invoke martial law and try to keep himself in power beyond 2016. We all know where that will go if he tries it.

  11. It’s actually pretty depressing to see fellow firearms enthusiasts so terribly misinformed – if Israel is our “ally” can you name a single war it has EVER helped us fight? Korea? Nope! Vietnam? Nope! Gulf war 1? Nope! Gulf war 2? Nope! Afghanistan? Nope! Some ally, we give Israel billions of $, and in return they have Jonathan Pollard spy on us and then sell the info to the Soviet Union, and now they want us to let him go ’cause he’s a “good” Jew. Get a clue.

    1. In fact, ‘Israel’ is our number one enema. It will drag us into World War III. And for what?

    2. So, you want a country the size of Atlanta to defend the country of America which is probably 100,000 times Israel’s size. Israel may not jump into every conflict the American Government can sign us up for, but I’m certain that support this country more that Obama does.

    3. Other small countries send their armed forces to regional conflicts in the Middle East, ‘Israel’ never does.

    4. 100%UNTRUE ,in fact bashar assad and saddham hussein would have had nukes by now over 15 yrs ago if it WERE NOT FOR ISREAL .They alone destroyed both nuke programs on their own accord .They are the smart ones in this so called farce of a deal king Obama wants to work out with that lurch john kerry while at the same time Iran is slowly moving into half of the middle east right under our noses .If i were Netanyahu i would destroy them now while Kerry is kissing thier azzes in switzerland and end this crap now they can handle themselves and have proved it over and over again they can send every arab nation and isreal will destroy them all as they have 3 times before at all costs .That is the major diff btween us and them they will take w/e losses it taKES to keep isreal intact would obama do the same to save america? highly doubtful thats the plain facts sir .

    5. Netanyahu was the one who said, in 2002, “If you (the West) take out Saddam, I guarantee that this will have positive reverberations for the region.” Yeah, right. And now we’re supposed to believe his paranoia about Eye-ran?

  12. Myself ,,, I stand with the Israeli people….. Did not God give this land to Abraham ? I be-leave others should leave…. Then the rest Starting with Iran should be turned into a parking lot……

    1. There will only be peace in the Middle East when ‘Israel’ is turned into a radioactive parking lot.

  13. Jeff, you are spot on. These idiots are clueless as to what Obama stands for or is doing to this country, all they know Is they’re getting a free ride and an Obama phone. Were all arguing about whether this ammo or that ammo could be included. People wake up, once they get the first 5-6 various bullets abolished it won take long for the next 6 and the next 6 till we have nothing at all!!!!

  14. Okay, so how much of our tax payer money has been wasted over the years with this crap ?? could have bought a School or two, a bridge , or a battleship —how about when the dem’s do a end run around our right—they pay for it out of their pockets !!

    1. The same could be said for all the money spent on lobbying, fighting AGAINST gay marriage, and incarceration of pot heads. In many cases a select few radical politicians hold far to much power and it stagnates the US’s progress. Let us shoot what ammo we want, let gays marry, let the pot heads smoke and grow as much as they want and we will save billions each year. Hell with legalized pot in the whole US we will bring in so much in the way of tax revenue, that it will wipe away all the money spent on the Iraq war.

      Lets also throw in there that the gun laws should be nation wide and not governed by the states. The right to arms, is a Constitutional right, not a state right. If I have a carry permit in Indiana, it should be honored in any of the 50 states.

  15. With a republican controlled house and senate, I don’t see this going far at all. And although I am not a fan of the current administration, history has shown his executive orders have changed nothing for the common person, and were just administrative actions. Not saying it’s right, but I don’t see this going very far.

    Don’t go emptying all the shelves of ammo and become part of the problem. If you already don’t have the ammo, and you aren’t planning on shooting it in the next 4 weeks, DON”T BUY IT. Some of us go to the range weekly or more, and DO go through lots of ammo, so don’t ruin it for everyone just because you are panic buying.

  16. Spam can 7.62×54 is steel core and ARMOR piercing my friend it will go as well if we let it .In fact it is way more capable of piercing ANY body armor than the 5.56 ammo we are discussing .

  17. I would like to know how many policemen have been shot with this ammo… It’s a safe bet it’s 0. Now if I were a criminal why the hell would I use a .223 when I can use a .30 Cal like a M1A or a Garand. I could even use my 30.06 Hunting rifle with 168gr HPBT and I’m sure they would do MUCH more damage then the 62gr penetrator. This is just the far left trying to take away our 2nd Amendment rights again. Like was stated earlier “we many have our guns but have to use them for clubs” I served 15 1/2 years in the Air Force as a Security Forces Supervisor/CATM instructor. This ammo is not classified as armor piercing, it’s classified as Light armor piercing. It’s a steel core wrapped is a copper jacket. To be honest, I’m not sure why we (the military) even when to this round. It’s a very bad choice to stop a person, There is little to no expansion, which you need to take someone out of the game. I would say getting hit by a 55gr FMJ would be worse then getting hit by the 62gr penetrator. The thing I think is ridiculous about this whole situation is that criminals don’t care if their illegal or not, they will still have and get them along with their full auto guns. So in reality it’s only making outlaws out of law abiding citizens. It’s like outlawing vehicles because DUI deaths are on the rise…This just makes no sense to me at all. This is just another ploy of the dumbest administration we’ve ever had….

    1. Tim,

      You are correct. There is not a single documented illegal use of this ammunition against law enforcement. ~Dave Dolbee

    2. There has to be a reason for this administration to not want the public to have this ammo… IF, and I do mean IF; that round would be the easiest to get your hands on if something ever happened in the U.S. I feel that so many people have .223’s that if it came down to; how do I want to put this. us against them, the .223 would be the most widely preferred weapon of choice of most Americans. And we would out number the Armed Forces and Police, and I think that scares the hell out of them. I have a feeling that something big is going to happen this year and it’s not going to be good.. Something financial, like the dollar being taken off the world currency leaving it worthless. Or the Federal Reserve collapsing. How do you maintain order when there are millions of .223’s out there? Make the ammo illegal so there is no opposition when Big Brother takes over… I know, now I sound like a nut but it’s the only reason I can come up with, because if they get away with this… What’s next???

  18. The 855 isn’t or at least hasn’t been considered an ammo piercing ammo. Now because of backdoor gun control thanks to the current administration, it has all of a sudden changed or at least it’s designation. The bigger problem is that this has stirred waves of others who are wanting to ban all center fire cartridge ammo as armor piercing. There have been bills put up for vote soon to do just that. If that goes through you’ll have .22 ammo and 7.62x54R left to shoot.

  19. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the use of armor piercing amo was the military’s mistake in Cosovo. The military was using the the green tip, but it was going through the enemy without “mushrooming” and doing any damage to the enemy. If this is true, then it would be safer for the criminals, for the general public to use green tip bullets. I have green tip, but I use them on the range, they shoot very well for long distances.

  20. I always thought if they can’t outlaw firearms, they would attack the ammo companies. I can’t believe how ignorant the administration and the media are to the results of such control. The freedom of our country depends greatly on the right of individuals to own firearms.

  21. Would anyone expect anything less from Barry Obama … he was raised by radical and devout communists,,, sat in church with the likes of the racist pig rev right or wrong which ever you prefer… I truly believe his biological father is and or was frank marshall davis… People the likes of him with his beliefs get into office through ignorant voters who know nothing about his back ground or do know and vote for him anyway….Ignorant cool aide drinking Sheep looking for a free ride thinking someone owes them something .. Makes Me Wanna Puke!

  22. Remember, our leader is a student of Saul Alinsky whose said if you have trouble pushing your agenda through, push even harder.

    1. I hate to admit it, but I was probably one of the last to come around on this issue. This one really bothers me because in my stint with the USMC I fired a lot of rounds but they were all 30 caliber, lead core anti-personnel. I know we had armor piercing ammo but I never had the need or opportunity to use them.

      I can see how the public could be fooled by this issue because the scare tactic is that it would jeopardize our police who have already gone military. But that’s a sore spot for me because my son is a cop and that’s why I bought this argument at face value it in the first place. As I see it they need better ballistic protection.

      To be perfectly honest about it, in my personal arsenal, I don’t have any armor piercing ammo and I can’t think of a reason why I would need it but I suspect the gun grabbers are just using this to keep ammo out of our hands. I think they won’t be satisfied until we’re down to using our firearms for clubs. If we can’t get the ammo what other choice do we have?

  23. I keep hearing from the NRA about hunting and sporting rifles and their ammunition. My thing is this. Why are we arguing about what is a “sporting round” or not? The Founding Fathers did not create the 2nd Amendment so the right to go on African Safari and shoot 3 gun would be perpetually protected, they created it as a system of checks and balances against the Tyranny of Government which they had just fought a Revolution against. CHANGE THE ARGUMENT! M855/SS109 is maybe MORE protected under the Constitution than other types of ammo because it’s a military surplus round. The Framers intended for us to be able to protect ourselves and our families. The only purpose for banning common .223 rifle ammo is to de-fang the American people. I would not be de-fanged.

    Malon Lave

    1. It goes even deeper than the 2nd Amendment. The right to defend yourself comes from Nature and Nature’s GOD. Even the smallest and humblest creatures will defend themselves, violently if necessary. Ants will do it, so will bees, even sweetly singing birds and cute little bunny rabbits. If these creatures will defend themselves, why not any of us?

      The Second Amendment does not give us the right to defend ourselves; it codifies what already exists. And no amount of posturing or speeches by empty suit politicians can change that

      Ideals Mastering Power Creating All Life GOD IS
      http://www.impcalgi.com

  24. I cannot say this enough to reiterate says until somebody listens to me all the rest of the American people just believe in our Bill of Rights and our Constitution!!! I’ve sent this and others things have to my congressman mayor and governor Chief of Police and I’m going to start sending out to all the conversation it’s not going to stop with one particular use of ammunition it will be a domino effect that’s what they’re counting on please don’t let this happen or America is done no more land of the free and the home of the brave the reason the Japanese did not hit the west coast with every American I want to rest because they knew you had firearms and we’re going to fight for God and country and their land now we are having to fight our own country and the UN for our freedoms if you think that’s right down to read this! ease stop going after our Constitution and the Bill of Rights like it is cannon fodder! Quit attacking our 2nd Amendment rights. if you can’t get it done through the proper channels basically through the front door you have shown and proven to the American people you are more than willing to use the back door!!! and that is not freedom that is not the United States that is not democracy that is fascism that is dictatorship let that not be your legacy! backdoor politics and the outrageous lies to the American people! and you try to pull one tipe of ammunition. that is a out right attack on the Second Amendment rights of Americans because there isn’t one person I know or have talked to on social media or in person and I talk to on a regular basis that are stupid these people are intelligent gun owners! I have spent my whole life training with weapons safety courses!  safety course after safety courses! I was raised that way so are my children!!! The 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with sporting 3 gun precision shooting any of that and you know it! once anyone gets the ability to outlaw even one tipe of ammunition that is the end and the downfall of our 2nd Amendment rights is that the legacy you want to leave our great country!!! I hope to God you don’t! do you care about our Constitution and the Bill of Rights and all the things that Martin Luther King and many people like him they fought so hard for there inalienable rights stop this before the flood gates open and then the America you grew up in and I grew up in starts to look like something real scary and terrifying out of control and radical government dictatorship and people in fear of the extreme government over reach… I hope and PRAY no one has the power to leed us down that snake filled path! So I implore you and all Americans to stand up now before we are forced to lay down! god bless america!

    1. Exactly the point ,they want it all banned period all ammo ,all guns ,all rights to free speech ,admining the press and only putting out what the govt wants us to know ,secret police in military style uniforms with military style weapons .HUM does this not sound very familiarmy fellow americans ? Sounds like 1980’s cold war russian gov tactics to me now beig pushed onto us Americam people at an alarmingly fast rate,presidential candidates with secret e mail servers in their basement ,familiar? should be sounds like mao,lenin ,stalin,Hitler,Putin,N K ,and red china to me is becoming the American govt’s plan for us ,total govt control ,total brainwashing our children ,etc.Time to wake up or be eaten by the DEMOCRATIc SOCIALIST PARTIES TAKE OVER TEAM for us all. They want total and absolute control over our lives may as well live in Red China if we let that happen once we give them up they will never be gotten back that means all rights ,all liberties ,all freedoms we now have and cherish will be gone 4 ever and it will not end with guns and ammo people that is just the start..Not what i want to leave for my children and grandchildren.Not what my Dad and Grandfather along with me n my younger brother served and fought to protect.

  25. This is crazy….. Mainly because I know I can drill holes in a 1/4″ thick steel plate at 50 meters with a regular .308 round… A .308 will easily defeat ANY soft body armor out for quite a distance. So, if they get m855 ammo banned, what stops them from taking away my .308’s? Then how can I hunt without a weapon that has ammo? Is is freaking stupid…, I hate to be the one to say it, but like Thomas Jefferson believed revolution needed to happen every 100 years or so, this government needs to be put in check…. The usurpation of authority is sickening…

  26. I am a retired police officer with 40 years of service with the same dept and during that time our dept as well as most all depts I was familiar with purchased body armor that would stop our carry handgun caliber as the main concern was someone taking our gun and using it against us. The only exceptions I was aware of was spec units such as swat teams who had armor for protection against rifle calibers. We did have ballistic shields to use when needed but only supv carried them in their cars because of their weight and expense. I’ve only been retired for six years and I stay in contact with fellow officers so I don’t think there have any changes in that regard.

    1. MR Morgan ,you sir then should know better than all ,remember when you first left the acedemy?when you first became a police officer 40 yrs ago? Are you going to say that we are not watching the militization of our local police depts ?Are you not seeing the tactics employed by these para military so called police in military vehicles in our streets? i do not recall when my father a cop in miami det at that were regular cops ,did what cops do served and protect ,todays police forces are becoming small paramilitary groups VERY WELL ARMED AT THAT you of all people should see the abuse of power by many many police depts in america now i remember when only the national guard had those weapons and vehicles and they wionder why most of us are now just as much in fear of our police as we are the DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS PARTY they are like jack booted thugs in1938 germany and post ww2 russian police than American police depts now .It is out of hand now too late to go back we have to put an end to it now or it will just grow like an aggressive cancer on us and destroy our way of life as we know it you of all people should see the writing on the wall. cmon man they want ALL OF OUR FREEDOMS

    2. Well said Damian! I would like to know where the police get the right and authority to arm themselves with fully automatic weapons… I mean where does that authority come from? I did 15 1/2 years in the Air Force as a cop and we carried full auto’s but that was an active military unit. Do the police depts. have to get FFL’s? The way I feel about it is that, if the police have it, so should the citizens. Just to keep the checks and balances in place. Telling us what guns and ammo we as citizens can have is a direct infringement of our Constitutional Rights. It’s time we let Washington know who this country belongs to, and it’s not the crooks in DC.

  27. Any ban on ammo is an unConstitutional attempt to take away our Second Amendment rights. This is an unbelievable attempt by the President and his antigun compatriots to railroad the public into believing more unconfirmed information and get Congress to pass something that any informed person would declare insane.

  28. I would assume so since the Supreme Court has upheld but defined what they consider the limits of the 2nd Amendment. For them to do that someone must have challenged pro or anti gun rights?

  29. I’m sure the people at Charlie Hebdo were wishing, after the first few rounds went through their front widow, that they hadn’t allowed their guns to be taken. Probably would’ve saved a few lives that day. No one there, including the police that responded, had and weapons and look what the terrorist were permitted to do. Only the people with cameras were shooting anything.
    Now it seems that the agenda of this president is to remove our guns by attacking the 2nd amendment. If we look at the terrorist attacks world wide and the threats these terrorists have made on this country, why would any level headed person want to disarm us. Look really close and pay attention to what goes on with the White House. The past 6 years has had us looking at the right hand while the left hand is undermining every right we have. The president of Iran, in a speech to the leading terrorist groups stated ” once they destroy the little satan(Israel), they were gonna deal with with the big satan( America)”! What really bothered me was the fact that he said there is already plans working here to destroy this country! Kinda makes you wonder why Obama wants to disarm us now! It’s time we wake up!!!!

  30. As long as we let the Liberal Agenda, (formally called Communism for all of you over the age of 40) run rampant in the guise of protecting our civil liberties, we will succumb to the fate of all fools; and be destroyed. If we as a nation are to survive, we must realize some very basic facts. The first and most important is that we cannot allow our country to be over run by the ideologies that are destructive to our core principles and traditions. I am not saying we cannot be sympathetic to other points of view, but we cannot let every immigrant group change us into the country that was so bad that they left in droves. The only way to protect our freedom is to hold onto what makes us the country we are; and as our founding fathers saw it. The primary, is protection against the slow blade of corruption and the “RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES”. Not only from foreign threats; including being over run by the hordes only interested in our providing protection and the never ending supply of our natural resources; but also from the corrupt politicians who put their own personal agendas I.E.) being re-elected, or climbing the political ladder, and attaining wealth above the oath they take “to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic”. Every time we turn our attention away from the legislation being proposed or being put into law we fail ourselves,and our children; and worse than that we put our country at risk. We must stand fast as a nation of free men and women to hold on to our God Given Rights, no matter how long or how hard the fight is; and no matter who is misrepresenting themselves as the voice of the nation; when they are clearly trying to destroy us at every opportunity they get. I will not rant about the “ANTI CHRIST” but we surely are under attack from people and persons that want to harm us. How can any man stand up in front of the world and declare that “AMERICA IS NOT A JUDAIO CHRISTIAN NATION”??? We as a nation were founded on the freedom of religion; but in reality it was directed primarily as the freedom of choice between the prevalent Christian including Judaio branch’s or forms of Christianity of the time. How many times can we as a people continue to re-elect people who have track records that are filled with lies, corruption, treason, greed, cowardice, and strings of unexplained dead bodies that would surely indicate murder by the shear numbers alone. Even the most naïve of us can reason out that we are tumbling as a nation; not only financially but morally as well. I urge everyone to support the worthy groups that support our way of life and the philosophies that we hold dear. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, SUPPORT OUR FREEDOMS, SUPPORT EACH OTHER IN OUR ENDEAVORS, AND SUPPORT OUR WAY OF LIFE. In closing I would like to say something my father said to me…..”Son, a prudent man will prepare for the struggles ahead”…………. (FOOD FOR THOUGHT)….

    1. This is so well written. I couldn’t agree more! The corruption of our government is appalling to me. How can we as a public nation set back and allow some of the things that go on in congress to continue. Any president who performs as our does should be impeached. He show’s no love of country, he agenda is quite obvious. He has no respect for our constitutional rights, our country, our independence. The American people need to stand up for what’s right and take back our country. Don’t let the government agenda take over what we know as the American way of life. As stated, support our troops, support our freedoms, support each other in our endeavors, and support our way of life! Support America!

  31. I do agree that “our”government needs to focus on more important issues . here is one example what about all the jobs that went to china ? nafta was passed and “we”did not even get to vote on it !!! they shoved it down the working man & womens throat . my job went there !!! I have never heard of a politician losing his job or getting laid off maybe I will vote myself a raise !!! look at the age of some of them (career politician) these are the people running “our”lives !!!!!!!!!!!

    1. MR Rich,
      who fathered and wrote the executive action and put it through and made NAFTA SIR?BILL CLINTON DID and now America thinks the wife of that very same lying president that sent thousands of jobs and millions of tax dollars no actually billions of dollars out of america in office lol. With her record of lying about anything that could hurt her chance at being queen? I wont even try and name them all .But Benghazi should haVE BEEN ENOUGH TO END ANY CHANCE SHE HAD BUT FOR SOME ODD STRANGE REASON HILLARY seems to be above the law and we have millions of voters think she should be our president lol? has the Democratic party lost its mind?Has millions of americans really been that brainwashed ? are they putting someting in the water in the blue states ?How can anyone support her with all the scandals and she is not even in office yet .WHAT THEN? It all started with NAFTA and BILL CLINTON and if we let it , it will be finished under his wicked, deviuos ,lying wife .

  32. Ok let’s be honest, the M855 ball is the standard military round used not only by us but military units around the world. The projectile has a steel core wich definitely falls within the ban from the 80’s. I love the round and it served me well for eight years while serving in the USMC! But let’s all be honest with ourselves, it is a steel core penetrator designed to defeat body armor as well as helmets at 500 meters. It is not steel tipped! It is a lethal round used by all in our military!! That being said, I beleive everyone has the right to own and shoot the round. If you want to get angry at anyone it should be SIG for introducing not just the pistol version of the AR 15 but blatantly scoffing at the ATF by including rubber arm braces to boot!!! This was a clear violation of the SBR law and SIG should be kicked in the nuts for stirring the pot. The ATF turned a blind eye in the 80’s when green tip first showed up because there really were no pistols other than the obamination that Olympic arms turned out. We all love green tip but the reality is if the ATF shuts it down then we will be forced to pay more from other manufactures who will make a similar round without the steel core. If we want to point fingers then look at SIG!

    1. M855 only has a steel “core” in that the tip itself is steel. A steel cored tip, if you will. Beneath that is a much larger lead core. The steel tip makes up less than 25% of the projectile which exempted it from the AP classification. It is not a true steel cored projectile. It is also not armor piercing … any more than 193. 193 will penetrate light steel, 855 will not. 855 will penetrate some Dyneema plates, 193 will not. Neither is consistently worth a shoot against windshield glass and won’t penetrate ceramic plate. See in which direction and to what end this can easily lead?

  33. It’s all about the Democrats getting these anti-gun freaks vote.They can protect you so therefore you don’t need anything but to give them your vote so they can make robots and dummies out of you.Yeah,right.They don’t want people to have guns that way when they go socialist you won’t have any choice but to give up and be their puppets.Harsh ain’t it?Sad but true.Wake up people.

    1. Unfortunately we as citizens can’t fully win when it comes to politics. I am a firm independent and I find where the right is good at protecting my 2nd amendment rights, they are terrible at protecting the rights of minorities.I find it very hard to get a balance of both sides when things are becoming more and more polarized in politics. Being a gun owner, hunter, and avid outdoors man I never want to see my 2nd Amendment rights erode away. However, I have friends that are in the Gay/Lesbian crowd and they are good people regardless of their sexual preference.

      Just last week in Indiana two bills were passed and signed into law.

      1: Effectively allows any business to discriminate against any person or persons, that they find in violation of their religious beliefs. I am a Christian and I believe that if Jesus was on foot today he wouldn’t discriminate against anyone. Not sure how a business can tell for sure that a person is gay anyway. I have seen people that you would think were gay but were just metro. Does that mean they would get kicked out of a flower shop owned by a overly religious person?

      2: Allows the use of short barrel shotguns and rifles in Indiana. Not sure why it was banned in the first place because Indiana has been republican run for a long time, but there you go for today’s politics. With the use of short barrel rifles, you essentially have a pistol shooting rifle cartridges with a stock. Not sure how the ATF classifies that one but it would be easier to shoot than an AR pistol.

      I’m not sure anyone can say one side is 100% right. It really depends on where your beliefs take you. If you are more for the rights of all citizens to not be discriminated against for any reason, your going to hate Republicans for bills like the first one.

      If you are more into clinging onto your guns than anything else, your going to hate the ATF and blame Obama for everything.

  34. If you look at all the ingredients they want to ban, then add in lead, what else is there to make bullets from? Graphene? Battle them, non-stop.

  35. There is only one main problem ! the president Dictator and his Administration that is not out for the interest of this country! The Ms destroying anything and everything need to go ! an Obamanation!

  36. Sounds to me like just more “turning the screw” gotta keep that energy level high and those Ferguson riots fizzled out…Just keep playing with that powder keg, I’m sure it won’t disappoint

  37. Hilarious!…thank you for pointing out a list of the evil Jews in our government. Bet you had to search long and hard, as they likely account for less than 1 percent of workers. Why not spout your venom on the religious group that is out to harm us?….it starts with an M you moron.

  38. When I was 17 years old, I swore an Oath while joining the US Army, that I would defend with my Life, The Constitution of the United States of America, against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

    I have never changed my mind!

  39. Geez, everybody is blaming the guns and now the ammunition for mass murders which is triggering this anti-gun battle. I think their next action should be to ban airplanes, since one was used recently to kill 150 innocent people. NONE of this stuff makes any sense, does it? Come on congress, lets get real. Leave the guns and ammo alone and do something about income tax and social security fraud. That’s something that affects ALL Americans far more than guns and ammo.

  40. This proposed law is just another example of liberal mindlessness and while it would not get far in either the House or the Senate an executive order by Obama(or God forbid, by Hillary Clinton) is a very real possibility.
    It would probably mean a fight all the way to the Supreme Court and hopefully it would die there. But as they say in the Navy, “Rig for heavy weather” because a big storm is coming.

  41. According to the government/ media there are terrorists behind every rock, tree & bush waiting to kill us and they (Gov) want to take our ammo/guns??? Whats WRONG with this picture? LMAO

  42. Legislatsion has made this issue far more complacted than it should be. Most likely any caliber above .22 could be lethal given the surcumstance. Plus, I feel that most people who are in the chriminal business probably don’t get picky about their ammo. Why not make the not so deadly easer to purchase and the rest harder to qualify for.

  43. Social Security is not an entitlement since you pay directly into it and are reimbursed accordingly. Welfare and other forms of entitlements are not directly paid into but come from tax monies distributed across a wide range of people and do not get distributed according to what you put in. That is English speak not government speak. The fact that this bone head President has violated the law and unilaterally declared illegals can get benefits does not mean that social security is an entitlement for those who have paid into the system.

  44. To carry your example to the extreme then every time we pay taxes you would argue that is socialism. I think not. If you want services you need to chip in like everyone else to have them. We are still a capitalistic society with free enterprise. Social Security is not basically a whole lot different than putting your money in the bank and withdrawing it when needed at a later time. Live in a truly socialistic country where people regardless of education are all paid relatively the same amount and you will quickly learn the difference between their way of life and ours.

    1. Social Security is an entitlement and it is a tax; That is the only it could be made mandatory. I would have gladly “opted out” through my entire life if given the choice. Hundreds of thousands of people suck way more out of social security then they ever put in and likewise, many high earners pay tremendous amounts in, continue working and not drawing until their 70s then die soon after but their estate is not paid back the money paid in. Hell even the name tells you it is a SOCIAList program. We have fallen very far away from a capitalistic society with free enterprise. There is not a single free market left in the states. Everything is highly regulated by governments (local, state and federal) that think they can manage capitalism better than a free market can.

  45. Large Republican majority in House, fillibuster-proof Republican majority in the Senate … does anyone really think ***ANY*** firearm/ammo legislation is going to get any traction in Congress? Please!!! 8-{

    Stop buying into the intentional panic spread by “purveyors” – and I’m talking to you Cheaper Than Dirt!!! – as a way of increasing sales.

    1. Concerned citizen,

      Please read the entire article once again. I clearly stated I did not feel the legislation had much of a chance of passing. The fear is that the legislation is just the step President Obama uses before going it alone with executive action. It is important to list all of the facts – and to read the entire article! Here is a quote from the article.

      “It is hard to determine the chances of the proposed legislation gaining any traction in Congress. If history is an indicator, it will not go far. However, that is not a risk gun owners can tolerate.”

      ~Dave Dolbee

    2. One issue that is often overlooked in this discussion is that many state, local and tribal law enforcement agencies depend on the open (civilian) market for their ammunition needs. To ban M855 ammo for law-abiding civilians is to make it unavailable to law enforcement when they need it to defeat criminals’ body armor. Remember the North Hollywood, CA bank robbery and shootout 18 years ago, when responding LAPD officers had to depend on a civic-minded gun dealer in the neighborhood to lend them AR-15s and ammo for them.

  46. how can you tell when a politician is lying?????? WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR M******** F******** MOUTHS!!!!!! DUH!!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!

  47. Funny, while living in the UK I had to have a special endorsement on my gun lic. to own soft point ammo for deer stalking. Now Im back in the US and they want to ban FMJ ammo. In the UK, FMJ was seen as more safe than soft point, as creating less damage and more likely to wound than kill. The US seems to think just the opposite, that FMJ should be banned and that soft point or expanding point ammo is the safer choice. Seems to me that people without real knowledge are just trying to write self serving laws and regulations. Maybe one day they will realize its the criminal and or irresponsible finger on the trigger thats the problem and not the type of projectile fired.

  48. What purpose would such legislation serve? I cannot figure it out. I see it as only a first step in controlling firearms in general. This aint gonna happen in the good ole US of A. EIGHTY MILLION ARMED AMERICAN PATRIOTS, they have to be kidding them selves if they think the government is going to violate The Constitution of the United States of America. DREAM ON.
    First of all, body armor doesnt cover your entire body. Second, many other rounds can penetrate body armor especially since most is only designed to protect against handguns. If I was going to be shot, I had rather have a clean pass through wound by a hard round like the one they are trying to outlaw. Are the people who are supposed to ‘know’ about this kind of stuff just stupid or what?
    I have always said, you take away the firearms and they will build indiscriminate weapons like roadside bombs. And why would a government want to disarm their nation with the world in utter conflict? Its simply the UN edict of 1992 and the NWO who knows we are the only thing standing between total world slavery and liberty. I may be slow but Im ahead of you.

    1. It would benefit the communists within our so called government. They have been at this for many years and now have plenty of inside assistance to aid in the goals. Cannot have a populace have weapons and ammunition when you seek to control all aspects of their lives! Read a 1950’s book written by J. Edgar Hoover, Masters of Deceit. Eye opener!

    2. Mr cherokee,80 mill was the umber 6 yrs ago before obama and the buy up’s and ammo hoarding started ,that number has risen a lot since to over 100 mill gun owners ,ccw permits are being issued in right to carry states in astounding numbers add 20 mill to that number and you may be closer lol,jus sayin. I say keep buying America.Build our own i have started building them for myself. do all you can and stay vigilant as long as you do it right and peacefully and not go lets have a war with the gov crazy .Could never win that if we wanted too.We have to vote smarter ,reasearch the candidate before casting a ballot ,read up on his ideas and views and gun ownership opinions .That is how we win this there is no other way . We let our lawmakers do their jobs and we vote way smarter than we have been in America just because they are good speakers and it is the CORRECT thing to do is not the way,i am sick of hearing that. The correct way is to put the right leader in office in or the senate or housein the first place .BY GOING OUT AND VOTING smarter.

    3. Damian is correct. We need to vote smarter. Bush and and Cheney laid the groundwork for this African American in disguise to get elected. Eventhough Bush and Cheney were progun the American people had enough of the Republican party for awhile and so this is what happened. I think it is absolutely wonderful that a African American was elected President. This showed how far our country has come. But this guy has no swag. I’m thinking the Republican’s run Danny Glover for President and Mel Gibson for Vice President.. Obviously those guys have swag and are pro-gun based on their movies. It would’nt be the first time we had an actor President….Ronald Reagan I’m beginning to wonder if this Obama Bin Laden is someone Disney might want to consider to play one of a Sith Lords in upcoming Star Wars movies.
      This whole ammo thing is distraction from the fact that the government is bankrupt. The whole economy is about to come crashing down. The dollar has the value of a handful of toilet paper and soon will be worth even less. The government bailing out the auto companies.. what a joke. The government is the one who needed bailing out. You can’t fix things by just printing more money …I believe they call that counterfeiting. Whatever happened to the great leaders of the past like FDR, JFK, Truman, Eisenhower Reagan. These leaders were trully historic Presidents that put the nation before themselves or their party. Since Reagan it’s been pretty much below average.

  49. The anti gun morons in the government and otherwise will stop at nothing in their attempts to take our ability to defend ourselves away from us. This is exactly why we have the second amendment, to fight against tyranny and despots, and those that would attempt to take what is ours. They are afraid, of what, I do not know. Except for the government that would attempt to enslave the entire population, in a sense, for without arms, we cannot fight them. We can, and must fight them in the election booths, and through petitioning. It may seem to be a losing battle, especially with the most belligerent, obnoxious, non compromising (when he doesn’t get his way) President ever. We must keep up the good fight, and continue to be prepared for the worst. Stock up on supplies and such, for there is coming a day, we will need everything we can get.

    1. Harold Roberts – you surely hit the nail on the head with your insightful remarks. We must do our very best to resist the ‘creeping tyranny’ that gradually enslaves those who lack the will, tenacity, and inclination to seek the truth and realize that the enemy encroaches upon our liberties in a Marxist cadence of two steps forward, one step back. Let’s strive to educate the younger generation of the great efforts our Founding Fathers made to protect our liberties against the tyrannical forces we face. Long Live Liberty!

  50. The ammo is taken but no gain is made as others exist which will perform the same. And this leaves the move where? Yes, to take all of it, simple and repetitive discussion. They’ll tell you a thousand times not to worry, they will not take your guns, more ammo, but they lie.

    There is no gain in placing greater restrictions on firearms as none address the criminal use or acquisition more than laws already on the books.

    The anti-firearm/ammo people are in fact and function anti-American and anti-Constitution. They will argue and don’t want to accept this fact but then how else can they explain working against the foundational framework of what constitutes the USA?

    1. Every gun ban has resulted in another gun ban. Every bullet ban has resulted in another bullet ban. Full automatics limited to a practical ban – no need since you cannot “hunt” with them – but was there a need for the ban? Short barrel rifles?

      It will not stop. A victory for anti-gunners is rare to be reversed (unless it has a “timed” fall) and a victory for gunners is a flag for more anti-gun demands.

      Solution? People need to get off of their butts and start protecting their rights!!!

  51. Hello new to site but I feel that the government is wasting time and money that should be helping the people that they steel from every day.
    My issue is there are several bullets out there that can pierce armor it is a waste to try to ban ammo when nuts are the problem not law biding citizens trying to just grow old happily.
    We have a god given write to defend our lives and property and no person or government should inter fear with that.
    No incidents of this ammo on a cop killing or anything of this sort. The government thinks it can just change laws to fit there needs as they see fit. We are the government and they seem
    to have forgotten that. WetheWe the the people have got to remind them that they work for us as a hole not the other way around.
    Cheep ammo is what a sportsman looks for to target or just shoot not for malicious purposes and to ban that based on one persons opinion is a dictatorship not a free government as we so called have in the us. I will continue to buy ammo as long as I can to prepai for the apocalips like everyone else because when the government falls who will protect us no one but ourselves. Really just like modern days thanks

  52. I really don’t care what you do with your money but if you have paid into social security and are 62 or older and apply for it, you get it. I have no idea what you mean that people don’t get it. If dead no, if they don’t apply no. Do what you like. That still isn’t socialism. If I put my money in the bank and don’t take it out for40 years, its still my money. You were right, don’t get off the topic. Social Security is not an entitlement.

    1. In government or legal speak when regulations or the law says a person is qualified for something they are entitled to it and that is an entitlement so you are arguing about word definition or usage.

  53. You need to educate yourself about what you call armor piercing ammo in the contexts of the discussion on that topic. Almost any large caliber rifle ammunition will pierce level two body armor worn by most law enforcement and or military. Most of that stuff is designed to stop handgun ammunition traveling at less than 1000 ft per second. The body armor deteriorates after each shot it takes.and this includes the shield you see on TV. I saw a video where a guy shot M855 at an Armor 500 steel plate and it took him almost 60 shots to penetrate the steel. Military vests for combat are designed to stop 7.62 rifle ammo but the vests made with ceramic plates crack if they take too many hits. Do a bit of research and you will find the entire topic of armor piercing rounds and body armor quite fascinating.

  54. Socialism goes far beyond what you have described. I had suggested to look it up. Handing out a few things is not socialism. This is still very much a capitalistic society.

  55. The need for firearms’ control is upon us. Are we going to fight it and eventually lose? Can responsible gun owners ever be able to police themselves? These are viable questions that need to be discussed. I don’t know of anyone in the U.S. that needs armor-piercing, tracer, subsonic, or exploding ammunition.

    1. Larslake, You seem to be trolling, or you truly have no idea what you are talking about. Subsonic ammunition? Do you know how much of our ammo is subsonic? Nearly every 22lr is subsonic. Nearly all o pistols are subsonic. It just means below the speed of sound.

      I probably shouldn’t have engaged…

    2. You’ve started with the inane fallacy that the second amendment is there to protect hunters. From there you’ve made the wildly illogical leap that rights are there to protect only that which people “need”.

      Do you “need” religion? How about free speech? Do you “need” journalist that are free to say and print what they like?

      You claim these are “viable questions” that need discussion. I see no further need to discuss or debate ANYTHING with you because you’ve started with false pretenses and then leaped into wildly inaccurate assertions.

      Debating liberals like you is a lot like playing chess with pigeons. They have no grasp of the subject matter, but they will knock over pieces, defecate all over the board, and then strut around like they somehow won the game.

    3. The second amendment is very clear except to those who trust government more than their neighbors. There is no reason the government should be able to use my money to buy things I can not unless they are planning to subjugate the citizenry. It is already a crime to commit murder, robbery, rape etc. Laws to control weapons only control those who obey laws in the first place. These restrictions are clearly aimed at law abiding citizens not criminals.

    4. No one can be that simple….No one cares what you believe…If you don’t want AP ammo or tracer, subsonic, or exploding ammo, don’t get any…

      I certainly don’t want you making decisions for me or anyone else for that matter…

  56. As an attorney and having studied constitutional law, I have to say that the Second Amendment has NOTHING to due with hunting and sporting ammunition. Our founding fathers were not concerned with hunting but rather with the ability to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government. In their minds, even though they separated the country from King George there was always the possibility of another tyrant coming along. Don’t buy into this sporting and hunting ammunition smoke screen.

    1. As a history major, I find that the anti-gunners tend to interpret the 2nd to mean that only militias are authorized weapons, but in truth, the founding fathers intent was to relay that all citizens in this country were the militia and that in the case of an invasion, they expected every citizen to be capable of picking up their military grade weapons and defeating whatever threat this nation faced.

  57. Paying into social security and then getting paid back is not socialism. I think you need to look up what socialism is all about and it goes far beyond the items you have mentioned. You hit a bit of a nerve because it is inaccurate to refer to social security as though it were an entitlement program. We paid into that and the only reason it is constantly in trouble is because the government took the money that was in escrow and used it for other things. If you research that you will see it is true. They never paid it back.

    1. Not all social security payments go to old age pensions. Some monies go to people unable to work and various other needs. If I understand correctly, social security benefits are going to illegal aliens. If they have not paid into SS, they should not benefit.

    2. I hate to add to the distraction from the article topic, but…

      Not everyone who pays into the S.S. slush fund gets all of their earned money back. Some don’t get ANY back. While some people consider the S.S. system a socialist policy. I call it theft, as is much of our collected taxes, including the income tax and of course, ObungleCare. In fact, the entire tax code is designed to SOCIALLY engineer and otherwise control the American people. Socialism comes in varying degrees, and S.S. is in DIRECT opposition to capitalism and free enterprise.

      I need the money I earn for more important things, such as eating food RIGHT NOW, not after I turn 65, 67, 68 or any other age there is a real possibility I may not attain.

      Why don’t you do with your money as you see fit, and I’ll do with mine as I see fit? I am free, aren’t I?

    3. We have a democrat president, LBJ, and a democrat congress to thank for the raid on Social Security funds. They were to be used to fund the “great society”. Wasn’t that a resounding success?

    4. The NOT SO Great Society: At least $10 Trillion down the rat hole, poverty higher now than in 60’s , black family destroy red and generations of Americans that know of nothing but government dependence to such an extent that it is now considered a right.
      This my friends is the result of fascist liberalism. The goal of progressive liberals is complete government control of all Americans – except for of course the liberal fascists in charge. The fascist liberals and their government stooges are chipping away at our constitutional rights every day of every year of every decade.

    5. It’s socialism. Redistribution from those who can to those who won’t. That is the very definition of socialism.

    6. partially true dprato, there was really never any lock box… The government appropriates the money for SSi and it should be budgeted along with the rest of the so called entitlements. That is if Harry Reid(thank god he’s gone) ever put forth a budget in the last 6 years.. How come we never hear that Welfare is running out of money? hmmm.

  58. I’m finally prepared and in place for whatever comes down. It costed a lot of money and about 2 years to be able to say that. My meat is all around me on hoof and I’m learning more about harvesting from the field and where it’s located.
    But, this attack on gun rights has me concerned more than ever. I do not think I’m a doomsday model.. I do know that this country will fail as others have and those who aren’t prepared will be doing anything that whatever power is left demands of them. I choose not to be among them. This article caught my eye because it further convinces me to buy much more ammo than I have already, even though those who are sitting on their arse, wringing their hands and nay-saying, will call me a hoarder. They can cow-tow to the new order. I will not. I will survive in the wild, or die trying.

    1. To Clay above:

      I too align my thoughts with yours regarding the possibility of some catastrophic Doomsday & aspects of the ‘Prepper’ mentality. While it feels as though the Government will surely self-destruct ~ and comes awfully close ~ the worst we seem to endure periodically is a crashing economy, the devaluation of the dollar, and the ongoing loss of respect from the rest of the world – including some of our allies. Etc., etc.

      The long and the short of it is that; if I find you dying in the woods while trying to go it alone, I will cut off a finger to bait a trap for meat – for us BOTH to live – as I too will not live under the yoke of tyranny!!

      NO SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH AMMO.

    2. I appreciate what you are saying, but what are you doing beside hunting? Are you raising vegetables and fruit? Do you have fish? Do you know how to preserve and can and dry foods? Do you have some goats and sheep? Do you have horses? Then consider the medical aspect and medicines.
      It is unusual for a modern-day man/woman to have all the skills and knowledge necessary. I guess it is best of luck to all of us when the unthinkable happens. Be safe and good shooting!

    3. I totally agree with you, Clay. This administration has tried everything in vain, so far. You are not a hoarder, but a wise and concerned parent, husband, etc. The people who denigrate you are the ones with the “wool pulled over their eyes”. They are the very ones who would love nothing better than to allow the Gov’t (or someone) to take care of them from cradle to grave. They are mindless sheep, or as some call them, sheeple. The S.S.that people draw could be quite a help in assisting retirees or disabled who qualify if it was left alone. When the Gov’t gets involved, things go to Hell. I commend you and others like you who see a dark future. God bless you and good luck.

    4. It’s not the government that worries me as much as the impending civil unrest. Not sure we will ever see it, and I pray not, but my children or grandchildren may and that is why I brought them up to know Gun owner ship is a God given right. This country will survive but not sure what it will look like in 40 or 50 years. I’ll be gone by then but my children won’t… This president and even bush and Clinton have forever changed our country with their lawlessness or indecisive actions against illegal immigration and the like. Someone stated on this forum that we all need to get out and vote and vote smart. This is true but with the 5 million new immigrants about to get amnesty and voting rights the conservative or moderate will have a tough time beating the left. The president nationally won 65.9 million votes against Republican challenger Mitt Romney, who took 60.9 million votes “Bloomberg Business January 4, 2013” is that a coincidence? I look 5 million hmm.

  59. This bill is as good as dead. Even though the (G)utless (O)ld (P)uss*** usually bend over and betray their voters for the sake of playing nice with Chairman Obamao and his commie horde, gun control measures of any kind are apparently a bridge too far even for those RINO cowards. With that said, I agree with Tom, and realize that what is coming is inevitable. Give it 10 years, and the gun issue will become like everything else; a loss due to mass brain washing of the youth. The fact is, these commie SOBs run the school/university system, the pop culture/entertainment complex, the media, and the monetary system. We are screwed because most Americans refuse to “unplug” from the life that is considered “normal” and return to traditional American life. The only thing you can do at this point, is buy every round you can, while you can and prepare to face your own government one day. And gold and silver are a waste of money. Food, water, fuel, guns and ammo are the only things that will have any real value at that time when SHTF. Besides, the Bible says if you do not take the mark of the beast, you will not be able to buy, sell, or trade, no matter how much money or gold & silver you have.

  60. The treasonous pigs that elected themselves care not for we the people. We have been lied to, cheated, victimized by all their liberal bullsit I for one am sick of it all . Maobama is a psychotic narcissistic puppet that really thinks he in charge until he gets that call on the big boy phone that gives him his next order to quash another freedom of ours. He and the others are all pimps and they fo what they do for money and power. Come on folks do you really think this is the end of it? Or is it really the final beginning. God Bless America Land that I Love

  61. Anyone else having flash backs to the 1990’s with Janet Reno and her Black Talon Fetish?

    The entire argument then is the same as now: MYTH supported by non-existent facts. It is all based of hearsay and lies.

    1. LMAO yea lol the Obama admin is frightened of this ammo lol the most powerful military in the world but why did we not arm every soldier in both gulf wars and afghanistan with m85 aMMO ? if it is that deadly and such a menace this would be over long ago if all this bs the liberals are spoutng of it .Good 1 Eric that was great lol.

  62. If the People’s Militia, the ones in the Constitution that are to have the Power over the Govt, are denied ammo and guns capable of defeating a Treasonous Gestapo, then we become Subjects of a Monarchy, Communist, Socialist, or whatever Govt.. Why are they worried about bullets that can pierce their vests, unless they are coming for our Constitutional rights, freedoms, arms, etc. on our Own Property? I understand, but do most American citizens? If you know your Bible, and Revelations prophecy, you probably understand end times conditions.. Believe me, it’s going to get really bad and ugly.. Killings, wars, disease, famine, religious persecution, water pollution, meteors, an asteroid that destroys 1/3 of the Earth’s land, and a bunch more stuff.. Coming to a continent near you, real soon..

  63. If they do this then it will pretty much kill all hunting in AMERICA. ALL ammunition used in RIFLES are capable of piercing body armor. I know of several types that “handguns” have been created for. The mistruth about this though is that in a handgun the ammo is very hard to properly aim and the gun is almost impossible to control and keep on target. These democorrupt idiots in congress need removed by recall elections now. Or at least let know they are being watched by those of us that do hunt either for sport or food (I eat what I kill).

    1. Hate to burst your bubble MegaMouse but they could care less if you are watching them or not because Electronic Voting assures them reelection as long as they do their masters bidding so thy will get the Electronic nod.

      A return to Ballot Box Voting in this country is the only way we will ever get this traitorous scum out of office.

  64. I strongly believe that they are planing to bring the military and police force in the near future to put an attack on the American people and don’t want us to have ammo to defend ourself. So people when you are at the range if you are worried about having ammo that will penetrate body armor practice head shots

  65. Thank you for your service and I know I speak for many on here. We live, unfortunately, at a time where Government is dysfunctional at the Federal Level, have a President who fooled people into thinking that someone with no significant background at all could run this Country other than into the ground.People might think he is incompetent but the truth is he knows exactly what he is doing and that is to implement Saul Alinsky’s plan for turning a country into a socialistic state. On top of that our President is clearly a Muslim sympathizers at the least, and if fact has no love whatsoever for a Country he did not grow up in during his formative years.
    Those are only a few of the reasons why things are as they are today and it is up to all of us to turn this around.

    1. We were a socialist country before Chairman Obamao. He’s just making it worse. Technically, we were socialist as soon as the government started taking tax money from people to keep other people up. That started around…1930’s (Socialist Insecurity) and got ramped up in the 1960’s (War On Poverty/Great Society) and continues to this day.

  66. Thanks for your service and I know I speak for many on here. You might want to look up Operation Jade Helm 15 and see how that grabs you. Your insights as a former solider would be appreciated with regard to how you feel about the need for a so called training exercise of this type. I would be particularly interested in your take and opinion. Thanks again for your service and for protecting the rights we all enjoy.

  67. It appears that some people miss the point. To deny citizens FMJ ammunition is just another step to disarm us. That means that any milsurp ammunition cannot be sold. This is a cheap way to practice and yes, it can be used for self defense.
    Hunting is not the point of the 2nd amendment.

    Chucky Schemer has been lying about guns since the ’80s.
    The lie du jour is armor piercing bullets, before it was “assault” weapons, “undetectable” handguns and before that “Saturday Night Specials.”

    Antigun nuts with no logic or facts, just raw hatred of firearms and their owners.

    It’s the object, not the criminal they hate, it’s our firearms freedoms that they despise.
    True progreSSive fascists.

  68. I’m sorry but you people are spiritually ignorant at best and maybe just plain stupid. Do you keep wondering why the anti-gunners keep doing this stuff, or why they do it at all. It isn’t about firearm SAFETY, it is about and has always been about removing the ability of the ‘good’ guys to defend themselves from the evil of the usual criminal types and all the way to the coming takeover of America which is already well on its way to being accomplished.
    Every law restricting or removing the use of any type weapon whatsoever has as its sole REAL intention the destruction of good-the good guys. These are Satan’s laws that serve Satan and you serve Satan if you propose, vote for or enforce ANY of them whether it is a ‘switch blade, brass knuckles all the way to any type of firearm, ammunition, whatever.
    It has been very well documented that many of these persons calling for gun control are liars (that may or may not know they serve Satan) and the rest would simply be spiritual idiots duped by their rhetoric.
    Satan is real and it is happening NOW!

  69. So, the anti gun folks should have no problem being proud of their stand and have a sign posted in thier front yard stating that:

    “I AM ANTI-GUN & THERFORE UNARMED”

  70. Listen to what the man is saying. It doesn’t matter if someone is stupid enough to use m855 ammo for hunting it’s the point of them trying to ban us from it. If they win on the ballot ammo then the next step is they will ban ALL CENTERFIRE AMMO. If saying to keep it for hunting or sporting is bull or the truth we need to use every angle to fight for it just as they are using every angle to ban it.

  71. Have no fear, Democrats have no chance to get anything related to gun control passed. Both Democrats and Republicans reamed ATFE for trying to do this in the first place. The uproar convinced them to cease and desist for now as it would have been illegal anyhow. That is why they are trying to get Congress to deal with it.

  72. What moron uses ball ammo or fmj to hunt big game .Funny in the 5 states i hunt in it is 100% illegal to use anything but a soft pointed or hollow point to hunt said game .You sound dumber every time you type my man ,along with that as an ethical hunter should be i want to make sure my 1ROUND does the job as quickly and painlessly as possible not shoot right through and do little damage where that animal is now in pain and still on the hoof that is total crap .you sir should just stop typing you sound dumber every time you post again .BALL AMMO FOR HUNTING???? LUDICRUS.

    1. YES lol ,to the Texas big game hunter says we have no usefull purpose for anymore than a 10 rd mag for any firearm and CLAIMS he has used regular BALL AMMO AMD FMJ ROUNDS to hunt big game with for 2 decades lol. Wonder if i emailed the Texas dept of fish and game and asked how legal and their thoughts on hunting with fmj or ball ammo in texas for big game besides maybe feral hog if at all. Srry should have addressed said post to the typer of that post APOLOGIES gents but it was very laughable and threw me off topic lol.

    2. Damien, where in the article is the word “hunting” used? This isn’t about hunting, and neither is the 2nd ammendment. This is about our right to defend ourselves and our loved ones from ANY threat. The “sporting” reference is in relation to target shooting and practicing. Going of half cocked and calling the author names for sounding dumb about something that you don’t even grasp yourself is pretty dumb. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.

    3. Scroll back another page sir and read his post and BTW ,it is DAMIAN with an A no E in my name sir he typed it not i go read it .

    4. Totally agree with you, ball ammo has no place in hunting, totally unethical. However, the point seems to be missed. This isn’t about hunting, it’s about our second amendment right. We all know this was a precursor to banning all ammo that can defeat soft body armor. Our rights to arms ( and the ammo to use in those arms) wasn’t ever about hunting.

    5. You sir, are an imbecile. Not once in the article was M855 suggested for use in hunting. “Sporting Purposes” may include target shooting, 3 gun competition, or simply plinking at the range. The author is addressing attempts by gun control proponents to ban commonly used and relatively inexpensive target ammunition. Take the time to read the article before insulting the author.

    6. OH YES IT WAS Mr Z,scroll back before you start casting stones my man and learn a little common sense you are the one looking like an imbecile now for not reading ALL THE POSTS on the subject my point was it will lead to banning all centerfire ammo in the end it all will penetrate soft body armor and it was MENTIONED using it for hunting , now who looks like the imbecile dude? Keep it cool i am on your side my man and am not insulting anyone does not make moronic staements like that one he made was .

    7. Hold on Folks, I do not believe Damian was commenting about the author, see his earlier posts in reply to mastgnysgt. Here is part the idiots quote about ball ammo and hunting “when ball ammo is perfectly fine for hunting and target shooting. I have no need to shoot out a vehicle engine block”.

    8. Hey Damien,,,,
      What moron, obviously besides you, uses high dollar hunting ammo
      for target practice?
      “Congratulations” on your admirable hunting ethics.
      But,,,, Not every one is interested in going out and following what your pursuits are.
      Target and Skeet are all that I and many others are interested in shooting.
      My opinion is that we, and especially the arms manufactures, actually kind of brought this problem on ourselves.
      What the hell do we need AR-15 (5.56) pistols for????
      Bet no one can name any form of shooting competition that allows this type of useless weapon to be used.
      Whatever happened to the interest in traditional sporting arms?
      Every shooting magazine that I get, now is full of nothing but cover to cover ads for military grade appearing weapons carried by men dressed up I SWAT garb.
      If we as shooters don’t police our own image, I guarantee the “real ignorant morons”,,,, like the one in the White House and that flaming ass hole (Bloomberg) from New York., will continue to make life tough for us all.
      And,,,Lets be sure to put another Socialist Democrat in the White House in 2016.
      I can’t begin to imagine what life would be like in this Country with it under the control of the Hillary-beast with her pedophile old man tugging at her skirt.
      Oh,,,,, And let’s be sure to send Obama to the UN (his words) to rep the USA when his term is up.

    9. Hilde-beest would be terrible, no doubt, but the (G)utless (O)ld (P)uss*** will just give us someone just as bad like Jeb.

    10. EXCUSE ME i do not target practice with hunting ammo ,i did NOT post i hunted with ball ammo or fmj ammo . He did sir so before you start to insult scroll back to his post sir t/y. And before i hunt with any ammo yes i go make sure my rifle and scope are on and it works in said rifle for that particular hunt and the game i am hunting and it will not be ball or fmj rounds i hunt with ever. .SO you are a tad out of line sir but n/p i have thick skin . And you could use a few grammer lessons as well partner so how about lets move on to the topic at hand sir.

    11. Built a very nice SBR out of an ak pistol myself great little rifle now . so they have their uses ,again you sound gun dumb sir srry.I carried an M4 in the army i do not now and never did care for the ar platform my concern is all mil-surp ammo is next along with my hunting ammo being banned by total lies and back door schemes my fellow American.

  73. Actually, a majority of Congress has spoken out against this, but a few people in Congress are still trying to get this through. Not much of a chance though. Too much opposition around the country, by gun owners, in law enforcement and in Congress.

  74. The theory being pushed is “There are too many guns on the streets”, but the ‘guns on the streets’ are not the problem.

    The problem stems from TOO MANY CRIMINALS are on the streets of America, many placed their by the revolving prison doors that, for no logical reason, dump violent criminals back onto the streets without so much as a thank you.

    The revolving doors are a direct result of switching from a PUNISHMENT system of incarceration, to one of “rehabilitation”, to a system where ‘comfort’ of the prisons became more important to the justice system than the SAFETY of the Law Abiding Population.

    IF we have a ‘crime problem’ on Americas streets, then perhaps the problem lies with the legislatures that bend over backwards to see to the comfort and safety of the violent criminals instead of their SWORN responsibility to see to the Safety of the Citizens.

    Rehabilitation has been proven to be an abject failure, and the murders, rapes and all other violent criminal acts lie solely at the feet of the legislators that REFUSE to correct BAD LAWS.
    All first Responders need to be armed and fully competent in the use of their weapon.

    As a side note, the Victim is ALWAYS the First Responder.

    1. As a follw up comment.

      Earlier this week DHS bragged about dum,ping 30,000 more reason American Citizens need to be armed AT ALL TIMES.

      The government CREATES the crime problem, then opunishes the LAW ABIDING to make it look good for the stupid voters.

  75. M855 was targeted because it can penetrate lightweight polyethylene plates and helmets that can stop even .30-06 FMJ. I saw this coming years ago.

    It cannot be emphasized enough: BOTH mainstream parties represent the ruling oligarchy. Their goal is to make YOU helpless to resist them, whether it’s Democrats trying to take your guns, Republicans funding new military R&D to make your guns obsolete, or both parties supporting mass surveillance by the FBI, NSA, DHS, and the test of the alphabet soup fascists.

    The military does NOT protect our freedom! No one overseas destroyed our Bill of Rights — our own government and their enforcers did. You have NO rights other than those you are personally ready to defend with your very own life. Remember that!

  76. When is Congress going to move to throttle down the anti-Constitution’ers? Putting President Obama at the top of the list – it baffles me that Nixon was forced out of office yet the current POTUS and his mongrel hords are left to their own devices. What has happened? If nothing is done to throttle these folks and Obama is left for the balance of his term, Lord knows where we will wind up. WW3 will not begin in the middle east, nor Russia, nor the far east…. it will begin in Washington, DC and make no mistake about it. Sic.

    1. I would also like to throw in one other comment; over the generations our family have variously sworn to support and uphold the Constitution of the United States having served in its armed forces. Some have paid the supreme sacrifice and others have suffered until The Great Architect of the Universe (not Obama), whomever he is to you, conferred final peace on them. Nightmares. Undiagnosed illnesses. You name it. We have honoured our pledge. Why is it that some of our elected officials, having taken the same oath, cannot seem to find it in their hearts to do likewise? I do not pretend to be politically savvy but it seems to me that with the Republicans in control of Congress, that they should be able to wield a large enough hammer to bring some semblence of sanity to government and to the justice system. While we sit and talk with IRAN about Nuclear weapons, they laugh and spit at us and go on their national TV swearing “death to America; death to all infidels (not just the Jewish folks); death to Israel. Etc. Time to take a look around you and if you love your family it is time to push your elected representatives (at ALL levels and in all branches) to support the Constitution and introduce some sanity to what is going on here. ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR EVIL TO TRIUMPH IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING.

    2. Here is the reason these selected officials dont obey the oath is because they are NOT AmericansAMERICAN POLITICIANS who hold DUAL Israeli and American citizenship:
      Jews in the US government
      Past and Present:
      1. Attorney General – Michael Mukasey
      2. Head of Homeland Security – Michael Chertoff
      3. Chairman Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Richard Perle
      4. Deputy Defense Secretary (Former) – Paul Wolfowitz
      5. Under Secretary of Defense – Douglas Feith
      6. National Security Council Advisor – Elliott Abrams
      7. Vice President #$%$ Cheney’s Chief of Staff (Former) – “Scooter” Libby
      8. White House Deputy Chief of Staff – Joshua Bolten
      9. Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs – Marc Grossman
      10. Director of Policy Planning at the State Department – Richard Haass
      11. U.S. Trade Representative (Cabinet-level Position) – Robert Zoellick
      12. Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – James Schlesinger
      13. UN Representative (Former) – John Bolton
      14. Under Secretary for Arms Control – David Wurmser
      15. Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Eliot Cohen
      16. Senior Advisor to the President – Steve Goldsmith
      17. Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary – Christopher Gersten
      18. Assistant Secretary of State – Lincoln Bloomfield
      19. Deputy Assistant to the President – Jay Lefkowitz
      20. White House Political Director – Ken Melman
      21. National Security Study Group – Edward Luttwak
      22. Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Kenneth Adelman
      23. Defense Intelligence Agency Analyst (Former) – Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
      24. National Security Council Advisor – Robert Satloff
      25. President Export-Import Bank U.S. – Mel Sembler
      26. Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families – Christopher Gersten
      27. Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs – Mark Weinberger
      28. White House Speechwriter – David Frum
      29. White House Spokesman (Former) – Ari Fleischer
      30. Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Henry Kissinger
      31. Deputy Secretary of Commerce – Samuel Bodman
      32. Under Secretary of State for Management – Bonnie Cohen
      33. Director of Foreign Service Institute – Ruth Davis
      34. Federal Reserve Chair – Janet Yellen
      35. Federal Reserve Vice-Chair – Stanley Fischer

      Current (and past) Members of Senate:
      Representative Gary Ackerman (New York)
      Representative John H. Adler (New Jersey)
      Representative Shelley Berkley (Nevada)
      Representative Howard Berman (California)
      Representative Steve Cohen (Tennessee)
      Representative Susan Davis (California)
      Representative Eliot Engel (New York)
      Representative Bob Filner (California)
      Representative Barney Frank (Former) (Massachusetts)
      Representative Gabrielle Giffords (Arizona)
      Representative Jane Harman (California)
      Representative Paul Hodes (New Hampshire)
      Representative Steve Israel (New York)
      Representative Steve Kagen (Wisconsin)
      Representative Ronald Klein (Florida)
      Representative Sander Levin (Michigan)
      Representative Nita Lowey (New York)
      Representative Jerry Nadler (New York)
      Representative Jared Polis (Colorado)
      Representative Steve Rothman (New Jersey)
      Representative Jan Schakowsky (Illinois)
      Representative Adam Schiff (California)
      Representative Arlen Specter (Pennsylvania)
      Representative Allyson Schwartz (Pennsylvania)
      Representative Brad Sherman (California)
      Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz (Florida)
      Representative Henry Waxman (California)
      Representative Anthony Weiner (New York)
      Representative John Yarmuth (Kentucky)

      House of Representatives:
      Representative Gary Ackerman (New York)
      Representative John H. Adler (New Jersey)
      Representative Shelley Berkley (Nevada)
      Representative Howard Berman (California)
      Representative Steve Cohen (Tennessee)
      Representative Susan Davis (California)
      Representative Eliot Engel (New York)
      Representative Bob Filner (California)
      Representative Barney Frank (Massachusetts)
      Representative Gabrielle Giffords (Arizona)
      Representative Alan Grayson (Florida)
      Representative Jane Harman (California)
      Representative Paul Hodes (New Hampshire)
      Representative Steve Israel (New York)
      Representative Steve Kagen (Wisconsin)
      Representative Ronald Klein (Florida)
      Representative Sander Levin (Michigan)
      Representative Nita Lowey (New York)
      Representative Jerry Nadler (New York)
      Representative Jared Polis (Colorado)
      Representative Steve Rothman (New Jersey)
      Representative Jan Schakowsky (Illinois)
      Representative Adam Schiff (California)
      Representative Allyson Schwartz (Pennsylvania)
      Representative Brad Sherman (California)
      Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz (Florida)
      Representative Henry Waxman (California)
      Representative Anthony Weiner (New York)

    3. seanoamericano, you are right on the money here. These are the core crowd assaulting our Second Amendment rights Front and center. With their control of the media and total infiltration of our government we have a major problem on our hands.

      For those of you in the Second amendment community who do not realize the danger this Bolshevik virus poses to you, your family and our future generation of Americans, you had better open your eyes real quick and take a hard fast look.

    4. Scotty, you can say anything you want about the Jews and Israel but remember one thing, Israel will turn the middle east into glass while America is still arguing about what it should do to protect itself when Iran is close to having a working nuclear device.That is why Israel is our best defense against the treachery of the middle east. Israel is not afraid of how it looks to the rest of the world.

    5. Niteprowl2, turning the Middle East to glass is the very thing we DO NOT need. We need stability in the Middle East and Israel makes every effort to keep it destabilized while using OUR tax dollars to do it.

      When is the last time your neighborhood received 3 billion dollars PLUS a year for infrastructure maintance ? Even from your own hard earned tax dollars?

      These useless parasites need to be pryed off the American taxpayer nipple and all this dual national trash needs to be deported. American revenue needs to service American public needs first and foremost. Starting with the “Jewish Piggybank” misnamed the Federal Reserve.

      NO MORE FOREIGN AID…..Period.

    6. Umm… In looking at your list, you have duplicated your list of congressional members twice. Besides that, you make accusations without posting one shred of proof. It’s easy to make accusations but without proof you have a bunch of empty assumptions.

  77. History reveals the consequences of disarming the people. Any limitations on the 2nd Amendment infringe upon the ability of the people to resist the tyranny of the same government that acts to reduce the people’s right to self defense and defense of the constitutional republic. If tyrants wear armor, free men and brave need armor piercing ammunition.

  78. ease stop going after our Constitution and the Bill of Rights like it is cannon fodder! Quit attacking our 2nd Amendment rights. if you can’t get it done through the proper channels basically through the front door you have shown and proven to the American people you are more than willing to use the back door!!! and that is not freedom that is not the United States that is not democracy that is fascism that is dictatorship let that not be your legacy! backdoor politics and the outrageous lies to the American people! and you try to pull one tipe of ammunition. that is a out right attack on the Second Amendment rights of Americans because there isn’t one person I know or have talked to on social media or in person and I talk to on a regular basis that are stupid these people are intelligent gun owners! I have spent my whole life training with weapons safety courses!  safety course after safety courses! I was raised that way so are my children!!! The 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with sporting 3 gun precision shooting any of that and you know it! once anyone gets the ability to outlaw even one tipe of ammunition that is the end and the downfall of our 2nd Amendment rights is that the legacy you want to leave our great country!!! I hope to God you don’t! do you care about our Constitution and the Bill of Rights and all the things that Martin Luther King and many people like him they fought so hard for there inalienable rights stop this before the flood gates open and then the America you grew up in and I grew up in starts to look like something real scary and terrifying out of control and radical government dictatorship and people in fear of the extreme government over reach… I hope and PRAY no one has the power to leed us down that snake filled path! So I implore you and all Americans to stand up now before we are forced to lay down! god bless america!

  79. The M855 business is simply the next stage of the tactic to whittle away the least expensive ammo supply first.
    First was the almost extinction of .22LR that STILL exists from shore to shore. If you want it now, the price is approximately 2.5 times the average price common paid but three years ago.
    There was a big mistake made by the activists and industry lobbyists when the 7N6 ammo ban was allowed to take place with barely a whimper. When I had to stock pile to make it affordable to wear out my three new barrels of 5.45×39 caliber I could see the writing on the wall, the only thing that amazes me is that it took the traitors this long to set their sights on the next candidates.
    Next in line will be .308/7.62 calibers, and then 9mm – .45ACP – .38/.357 – and on,and on.
    Once they drive the shooting sports into a strictly rich-man’s past time they will commence squeezing those of us that show up on all those 4473s that have been collected for the past several years, and announce a national registry as the NEXT rule. And we all know what happens to those law-abiding folks that capitulate……..

  80. obummer might have a pen and a phone but I have a re-loader and a mold. Also, 26k rounds of clean brass, primers and powder which should last the rest of my life if he is successful. But, last time I looked the 2nd Amendment is under the bill of RIGHTS, not the bill of needs!!

  81. I have never wanted an ar or m855 amo… But the government wanted to outlaw ars so guess what I bought one… I never heard of m855 amo but the government told me about it so I went to go get some every local gun store I went to said “good luck” so first off let me thank cheaper than dirt for having 5 boxes for me but also for the government letting me no about it….what’s the real reason for bringing it to light sales,or to get it into the hands of everyone

  82. If you gentlemen would read the article you’ll find more is at stake than the 855 ammo;
    “U.S. Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) announced he intends to introduce legislation to “extend the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to include all bullets that can pierce body armor and be used in handguns. This could and may lead to all center fire cartridges.

  83. ISREAL? Since when did isreal become our enemy?Since the 1st day in office our wanna be king has pushed isreal into a corner they will come out of fighting and it will not be us they are fighting unless suddenly we are IRANS ally? Are we? And if so why? they would destroy us all if they could and just may someday if we do not wake up to what is going on in world .Russia is just sitting back watching it all happen .What happens when Putin and Iran ally and it blows up right in our faces and we have a nuke armed IRAN ? i agree with the last 2 names but Isreal thats just crazy . And very anti sematic as well.

    1. You can throw the anti Semitic card down anytime you want but the facts still remain the facts.

      Israel, Schumer, Feinstein, their all with the same Tribe dude, and make no mistake about it, they want to disarm us and they are working harder every day to accomplish just that.

      They have money, media control and they are doing us a lot of damage.
      You need to stop denying the white elephant and get a grip son.

    2. I don’t usually comment in forums like this but I will make an exception this time. To judge a large group of people by a few individuals is what gives people who make these generalizations a bad name. I do not categorize all white christian males as murderers because of Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh. There are many Jews who are strong supporters of our constitution and what it stands for. It sounds more like you are an anti-semite, which unfortunately is becoming all to common again in today’s society. I judge others by who you are and what you believe. Maybe you should do the same.

    3. Niteprowl2, I stand by my statement 100% and all the facts support my statement both stated and implied.

      The ENTIRE gun control / ammo / magazine / assault rifle ban, gun registration push is either drafted by this ilk or pushed by them via greedy political proxies on their behalf.

      Even superficial analysis of the agenda and the groups behind the lip service, disclose Tribe money funding the game. Just what do you call Bloomberg? Feinstein?, Schumer ?, Israel ?

      America has a REAL problem because the enemy IS already in the house. You can sputter anti-Semite all you want until your lips turn blue.
      The facts are still the fact regardless how you want to deny it.

  84. I knew the comment I posted would get a response from some wantabees. Why do you need armor piercing ammo and a magazine that holds over 10 rounds. I don’t see any logic in it other then fulfilling a wantabees fantasy.

    1. well SGT, I was a SGT also and since you were in the arty sounds like the only time you had need for M885 was in training….30 years is impressive service, I hope you are enjoying your retirement I only served four active and two inactive, but we took the same oath and it was for life! To defend the Constitution and to do that, I have the right to own the same type of weaponry that may be used against me. Personally I believe that we should do away with ATF tax and make it easier to own fully automatic and silencers etc. The criminals get them without any problems, and do not go through a background check. I will agree that there are a lot of “wannabes” out there but I’d rather that be the case than have me be the only one around willing to defend against an invading force from outside or an illegal government from within. American citizens whether they served or not have those same rights as you and I so I am inclined to believe you are either getting senile or possible were forced out after 30 and are disgruntled because of that and have become a anti-gunner, that’s kinda funny to me since you were a gunny at some point.

    2. No I retired honorably after returning from “Desert Storm” and I own a dozen firearms and have no need for armor piercing when ball ammo is perfectly fine for hunting and target shooting. I have no need to shoot out a vehicle engine block. Making Sgt under 4 years is nice if you are the best man to serve more likely you had a Winnie MOS that is why I responded to your rant. Oohrah!

    3. Actually 40 years ago in the ARMY it was common to make SGT in less than 4 years if you weren’t lazy and continued your education and training while on active duty. Weenie MOS? kinda like being miles away from the front shooting big guns? I carried an M16A1 while running com wire and lead a platoon of cable dogs. You like ball ammo, your choice, why does it matter to you if others choose differently? I currently have the right to buy what I choose, why are you against that? Maybe you are the wannabie with a fake military sounding id that is really a troll liberal/progressive just sinking up this board.

    4. artymgysgt- Do you understand that the proposal was not to ban AP ammunition but to reclassify a NON AP round as AP? Or that if U.S. Rep. Steve Israel’s proposal becomes law your “perfectly fine for hunting and target shooting” ball ammo will also be banned?

    5. I agree that there are some posers out there, but as for my self I did not spend 12yrs in service to my country, to have some politician control what weapon or ammo I can use in said weapon. Yes I have an AR platform rifle….why? Because that is what I carried everyday and that is what I am familiar with just like so many of my brothers and sisters. We spent Our time serving to protect the rights and freedoms that were given to all people of this great country by our forefathers. If we allow the current administration to attack the simplest of rights even thru a back door means it will only allow them to continue till all our rights are lost. That fact that anything is being questioned is a slap in the face to this man who was willing to sacrifice anything and still is, to protect any right of my fellow Americans. Legal gun owners, Veterans and Patriotic Americans are not the enemy of the state. I think our current administration has lost sight of that.

    6. Because as a law abiding ,ccw holding insured for that i may add with the uscca .AND THE LAW AND 2ND AMEN SAYS I CAN OWN THEM the 2nd amendment assures me that right as long as i do not COMMIT A FELONY or beat my tiny 4 ft 10 99 lb wife like some animal or woman abusing wacko would . Or become a drug abusing moron another thing i outgrew 30 yrs ago and i have never ever been arrested nor threatened anyone in any way with any of the very many firearms i own. we are collecteors as well as sporting shooters we can own wth we want in the USA as far as constitutional law goes so what buisness is it of your’es if or what buis what i own or want and i have a reloader and an endless supply of everything now i will never be caught with my pants down again by a tyrannical admin like we have in office now they get 1 little win they will go for more and more and more till all our rights are non exisitent and then we may as well live in china at least they let you make money . And if you want a gun plenty floating around that are easily gotten as in any so called anti gun ownership country .The gangs and thugs STILL HAVE THEM ie the triads etc..Always have always will no matter if you pass 1000 laws against it .you sir make o sense at all .JMHO.

    7. BTW i as well served 14 yrs plus with 2 deployments to protect those rights as well as a guy like yours even tho you are talking like another liberal democrat that is willing to let them peck away at our rights ,i sir shall never comply MOLONE LABE i say .I reload ,i buy cases of components .and i have stocked up for the rest of my life at 50 plus yrs old now .

  85. In USMC boot camp we used armor piercing ammo on pre-qualification and qualification day with our M-1 rifles. I believe the ammo was black tipped then in 1961. I know scare tactics are being used to keep M855, but why do Civilians need armor piercing ammo. If the answer is accuracy that’s a bunch of bull. I served in the USMC for 30 years and have attended many gun shows here in Texas and most of the gun nuts who want an M-16 type weapon are wantabees of military men . They are stupid and are not cool. If you want an AR join the military.

    1. MGySgt,

      The reason we the people need armor piercing ammo is to pierce armor. The second amendment was not established for self defense, hunting or target shooting; It was established for the sole purpose of allowing the people to rise up against a potential, future, tyrannical govt as the Founders had just finished doing. We have a right to AR’s and their ammo because our government has them.

    2. In reply to your 30 years of service thank-you. In regards to your opinion of what kind of ammunition or weaponry I choose to own that Sir is my business and only my business. You are sounding like the people overseas(and in Washington D.C.) that you were enlisted to fight. Wannabes( as you see them) have every right to seek out the kinds of weapons that are in common usage and are up-to-date. Maybe you feel that the average citizen should be limited to single shot black powder muskets. Just remember this. if things ever go all to hell it may be some wannabe that lives on your block that ends up having your six. You might want him or her to have at their disposal the best that they can acquire.

    3. Dear Hasbeen, Thanks for your service but I am a Navy vet and I do not think it is any ones business what I choose to have in my “AR”.. As long as I am legal. up yours and the politicians that keep coming up with this ridiculous garbage…No law will stop a criminal and if ya can’t buy it someone will figure out how to make them. And many thanks to the “wannabees” cause I am positive you will have my back and I will have yours….and please remember hasbeen, can you afford a security force to protect you and your family and loved ones like our politicians do??? Well I can’t, and I depend on ME to take care of my family and friends and neighbors.

    4. Well for one M855 isn’t actually an AP round, and two if you feel citizens dont need certain types of ammo or rifles you’re part of the problem.

    5. You need to rethink what was proposed. M855 does not meet anyone’s standard of “armor piercing ammunition”- not the BATFE standard and certainly not the USMC standard. It is no more or less effective against SOFT ANTI-BALLISTIC gear than any other CF rifle ammo. As for your statement, “If you want an AR join the military”, how about this?
      If you want a car with a lot of horsepower, become a NASCAR driver.
      If you want a really sharp knife, become a meat cutter.
      If you want a set of copper cookware, become a chef.
      If you want a beer, become a brewer.
      If you want your words to be published online, start a blog.
      BTW, your use of black tipped ammo in an M1 in 1961 is a non sequitur. Not only was the M1 chambered for a totally different cartridge (.30-06) but like almost every CF rifle round any .30-06 round will penetrate the soft anti-ballistic vests worn by police.

    6. If the 2nd amendment was established to keep the government from running roughshod over the people (which it was) then it makes sense for the people to have access to many of the same weapons and munitions that said government possesses. Hope this clears it up for you Media Matters troll.

  86. If any of these criminal lawyers did their homework and research they wouldnt be pushing non-effective legislation, the true american people demand they go after fraudulent programs, faulty immigration laws and shore up security and our military. Only the paranoid politicians wany to remove any firearms or ammo from the civilian population.

  87. The argument that M855 ammo is needed by civilians because criminals might possess body armor not only makes those of us opposing a ban of M855 ammo appear paranoid (any average Joe Citizen who actually worries about being attacked by an armored criminal IS paranoid) but also furnishes the antis with an argument about “utility”. It does not matter if we *need* M855 ammo, AR15s, large cap magazines, or more than one firearm. As law abiding citizens we have a *right* to those things whether we *need* them or not,

  88. Perhaps a more appropriate question would be, who do both the Democrates and Republicians now take their marching orders from? Obviously the Speaker of the House takes his from his new master Bibi.

    We know who has always pushed this anti-second amendment rhetoric and the big white elephant in the room needs to come out of the closet.

    1. I would welcome bonner taking marching orders from BiBi rather then rove. A true leader that fights for his country, something every American should be looking for

  89. The right to BEAR ARMS WILL NOT BE INFRINGED the writing is pretty clear and the intent if you read the 2nd amen is exactly as it was meant to be to protect ourselves from any one wanting to harm us ,OR ANY TYRANNICAL GOVT from forcing us under an oppressive government that is wht the founding fathers fought and died to protect and implement this amendment and the entire constitution for .It has worked for 240 plus yrs ,CRIMINALS and violent crime are proven to drastistcally drop in right to carry states as has been proven over and over again, this is why they attack with lone wolves in Europe they are hitting the soft targets first for PRACTICEfor the BIG attack they are planning and will try to carry out in some GUN FREE KILLING ZONE in America at some point and Obama and the liberals want that to happen ,another maasacre ,another mass shooting lets ban em all will be the cry from the liberals AGAIN they want us to be cattle ,death panels ,obama care ,benghazi ,secret e mails ,fast n furious, ban guns ,ban ammo the list just goes on and on how can any American want to go along with that ?have we gotten that stupid ? really? i have to wonder.

  90. Israel, Schumer, Fienstein, we all know what tribe they belong to and who they really represent….and it’s not America.

    Hello out there……

    1. Not all members of the tribe approve of these idiots. I am a conservative, pro 2nd am. American with no loyalty to other countries.

  91. “Regardless of your political affiliation” should read “As usual, Democrats never relent on their gun confiscation schemes”.

    No more tip-toeing around the truth!! No more lying for traitors!!

  92. Think PeteDub hit the nail on the head in his assessment of the lone politician who “Wants” to introduce legislation to ban the M855 from public use. Politicians will jump on any movement that will bring attention to themselves in an attempt to raise their status within their own party. This particular one seems to want to endear himself to Bloomberg, perhaps in the hope of receiving some of his endless antigun funds for future goals.

  93. As with Hitler late in WWII, Hitlers Generals could see that the war was lost and that Hitler had lost focus on what was best for the German people. But The Nazi leader demanded that his Generals press on in a futile attempt. Hitler had become a crazy madman.
    The same is the case with our leader who has lost focus of the big picture. There are so many more issues for our country that are of much higher priority that demand his attention. Not sure he is a crazy madman or is this a distraction tactic to draw attention away from other looming problems, such as the predicted collapse of the dollar and our economy? Whatever the case I believe it is time to consider impeachment before he destroys what is left our country.

    1. Aw! So sad to see another gullible American voter who actually believes that everything Barry Sotero has done is strictly accidental! Wake up and smell the Manchurian President already.

  94. 50 years ago lawn forcement officers were respected members of the community. But this is changed, statistically speaking over 90% of Americans have a distrust of law-enforcement today. Why is this it is because our government has systematically been taking our civil rights away and using law-enforcement to enforce these policies. It is also because law-enforcement officers of been increasingly becoming more aggressive toward Americans and everybody is a criminal in their minds. It’s also because law-enforcement in the imprisoning of Americans is become an Industry that employs more people than any other single industry in the United States. The government and law-enforcement do not want people armed or with the capability to resist them. Gun laws haven’t been about keeping people safe they have become a way to disarm the American publicinto quell our ability to fight an unjust or tyrannical government as the Constitution gives us a right to. Yes I said it a right to. As Americans we all need to stand up and protect our constitutional rights and our ability to defend ourselves in any situation necessary. Even if that means protecting ourselves from the government itself.

    1. Overbearing government is the biggest threat to our democracy today. If we don’t standup to the politicians we will eventually lose our liberty!

  95. No surprise. The antis are not going to give up on this or any other scheme to erode the Constitution and the rights of lawful citizens.

  96. Another liberal lie told by unhappy democrats who’s annointed too soon Queen Hillary got caught with her hand in the cookie jar of bs in DC at this time . They are virtually handing us conservative republicans the 2016 election by contuing to piss off us law abiding Republican gun owners with totally useless and bs legislation . None of this will go far the people are fighting back and we must stay vigilant this is a direct attempt to ban all centerfire rifle or pistol ammo rendering our firearms useless.It will go on until the election and will just get more desperate Obama has nothing left to lose his entire presidency is proven to be the worst and most wanna be oppressive admin in power in my 55 yrs of life and his main and only goal now is to disarm america for ever if you are not a law enforcement officer or work for them and do away with more than 1 of our constitutional aMendments like 1, 2 and 4 and 5 all he would like to just erase from the bill of rights and constitution they want a 100% gov ruled America and if we let another DEM liberal into office we can kiss gun ownership goodbye for good .Remember that in 2016 november people .Hillary is the biggest threat to America freedoms since Obama 1 tyrant leaves we put the female version in ? c mon America wake up we are giving away our rights if we elect another liberal at this time .Hilary is a lying ,crooked ,fact hiding and distorting evil woman .ONLY A TOTAL MORON COULD VOTE FOR HER !! jmho.

    1. You’re kidding yourself if you think for one minute that the GOP establishment will allow a real conservative to win the nomination. The GOP is just as bad if not worse than the Dems. At least the Dems tell us what they are. The GOP just uses us to get elected, and then they sell us out every time.

  97. Hey Steve-Buddy you bring up a critical point-one I have been preaching for a long time-WHY ? It seems that Obamas crew wants to turn America into a Marxist-Socialist society friendly to Islamic radical dictatorships.He is driven by an “economic original sin -ie.slavery” ideology that dictates this country must pay for his perceived wrongs of America against the Third World.In other words he wants to destroy our society.However people like you and I present a clear and present danger to his power structure. That is how I see it. Regards Brother!

  98. Actually, I find the whole affair, kind of amusing. We give these people pretending to be our Voice of the People, into office with our Votes. And what happens, They give use “The One Finger Salute” and “A Swift Kick In the Ass”. LMAO, LOL.

  99. It’s one thing to have the liberal/left side of the political spectrum under the guise of “gun control”….

    But the deeper question is “WHY”?

    Why do they want to control civilian gun ownership????

    Is it for safety of the community or is it to meet some other “goal”????

    Such as disarm the general public and eliminate the ability of the general public to be able to defend themselves should they decide to take a more radical control of the government ….????

    Crazy??? Is this a delusional idea?

    Or does the left/ultra liberal side have an agenda that 99.999% aren’t even aware of????

    Obviously they need to get their “game plan” in order within this administration’s being in office and before the next election taking place.

    Call me crazy/nut job? or whatever else you wish to…that’s fine…I honestly could care less what one thinks….but what I’m seeing is of great concern…

    It’s like the train has left the station, and is heading down hill and the bridge is out and there is no one at the controls to stop the train….

    What happens next ain’t going to be pretty….

    But I’ve worked over 30 years within the law enforcement field at various levels from local to federal and over the past 12 or so years there has been a radical change from “public safety” model to a “militaristic” model which began about the time I retired….and has accelerated over the past 15 years to where it’s at now….

    Just my humble opinion….and yours may vary….

    1. @Steve Cullen:

      Some of the questions you posed are very interesting, but I’m really confused about your “radical change from public safety model to a militaristic model” comment. Can you explain that more with some examples? I’m not an expert in this area, but my first impression is that law enforcement would need to become more militaristic because of the more violent nature of gangs and cartels, and even street criminals who may use more dangerous guns nowadays.

  100. Dave,

    “Congress” has not proposed anything. A single Member of Congress, who is a discredited member of the discredited minority out-of-power party, has said he “intends” to propose legislation. Democrat Steve Israel is not “Congress” and he does not speak for the US Congress.

    Your headline could just as easily (and much more accurately) have been “Another Discredited Anti-freedom Idiot from New York Shows Why We are Winning the Fight for Gun Rights.”

    Stop crying “wolf” at the drop of a hat. You are giving these freaks exactly what they want — which is to upset people who believe in freedom.

    The more these wackos try to go after commonly-used arms like M855, the more the courts are going to circle the wagons in defense of the Constitution, and the more clear it will be to the American People that left-wingers have no respect for freedom and the Constitution.

    Learn how to recognize a victory when you see it.

    1. PeteDub,

      When I see a “victory” it will be the collapse of the Democratic National Convention building onto their heads simultaneous with similar collapses of the homes inhabited by 99% of the rest of that party’s members … c’mon veteran special forces folks, the country needs your skills now at home, not overseas !

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