Firearms

Long Distance Personal Defense Guns

SIG Sauer MCX Rattler with suppressor attached

Most of us who carry daily make a choice between comfort and ease of shooting with our choice in EDC pistols. I happen to carry a full size M&P 9mm. As an early concealed carry person, I was sure carrying such a gun would be super uncomfortable and noticed by everyone. Over time, I gradually learned how to conceal my sidearm better and more comfortably. It has also become plainly obvious to me that while open carrying, many people don’t see a full-size gun on my hip.

My girlfriend is an LEO. She carries a full-size gun as her duty weapon—Glock 22. For her concealed carry option, she is much more comfortable with a Glock 43. She is a small girl and concealing a full size is not realistic, especially in anything resembling fashionable women’s clothes. She is also a few months away from becoming an School Resource Officer (SRO) for her Sheriff department. That got me thinking about her other duty weapon, an AR-15.

I am a reluctant convert to the AR-15. For the longest time, I didn’t want a rifle with a bullet less than 130 grains. With the purchase of my first AR (about 10 years ago), it really began to change my mind. My late wife was able to utilize the AR (5.56) platform with much more accuracy, endurance, and no recoil pain or flinch. Then, I discovered non-standard calibers for ARs.

My collection has grown like a bunch of unattended rabbits. I currently have many 5.56 configurations and at least one AR in .300 BLK, 9mm, and .45 ACP.

The Sheriff department that my girlfriend works at has an SOP of keeping the issued AR in the trunk of the patrol car. This is as much to do with not scaring anyone by walking it into the school each day as it is with the budget not stretching far enough to have a gun safe and an onsite AR in the school SRO office. As often happens, my mind mulled over the concept of appropriateness of the AR as the choice for the tight confines of a school.

It occurred to me that the familiar manual of arms for the AR makes it a great choice; but the 5.56 caliber might not be optimal. The ballistics of 5.56 are not great for close work and offers a huge chance of over penetration, incredibly loud muzzle blast, and dramatic performance losses with less than a 16-inch barrel. By switching to a pistol round, most of those issues will be mitigated while still retaining the familiar manual of arms.

In a school setting, most engagements will be within 25-50 yards. That is definitely a long shot in a high stress environment with a duty pistol. Transitioning to a 10-12” barrel AR chambered in 9mm would make a lot of sense, especially when her department trades their Glock 22s for Glock 17s. They could have ammo and magazine compatibility quite easily. Making this choice would increase accurate engagement range and decrease the size of the platform for easier maneuvering in the tight confines of hallways and classrooms.

My suggestion would be to use an AR-15 pistol that runs Glock magazines. Equip the pistol with primary 1-4 x 24 scope from Vortex, Sun Optics, Leupold and / or a 45° offset reflex or red dot sight with instant on capability: Aimpoint, Holosun, Primary Arms… and a pistol brace such as the Gear Head Works Tailhook Mod 2. The brace would provide an adjustable stock option. Officers of different sizes can adapt the firearm to them instead of the other way around. Having the 10”+ barrel would match point of aim / point of impact (with a 25 yard zero) out to 100 yards, with Speer 124-grain short barrel cartridges. Other loads would provide similar performance.

Distance (Yards) Velocity (FPS) Energy (FT-LB) Trajectory
0 1,300 465 -2.5 in
25 1,228 415 0
50 1,165 374 1
75 1,112 340 0.4
100 1,062 313 -1.9
125 1,029 291 -6.1

For tight confines, such as a classroom or hallway, the disadvantages of the standard 5.56 AR-15 stand out. By switching to a pistol caliber (specifically 9mm), most of those disadvantages disappear and no real disadvantages occur. Even if you leave the tight confines for the more open space of the recess field, the range of the shots taken would rarely exceed 50-75 yards.

This would almost directly transfer to home defense, especially for those who live on a lot larger than .20 acres. I currently utilize a .300 BLK pistol for that purpose, mainly because I do not have a 9mm suppressor and I do have one in 30 caliber.

What is your opinion of a pistol caliber carbine for engagements out to 100 yards or a .300 BLK? Share your answers in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (78)

  1. Wow, this has been the best Shooter’s log of all! I think we have to take a deep breath and realize that we are all in agreement for the most part that our 2nd amendment rights are vital. Secondly we agree way more then we don’t and we are nit picking details and discussing opinions. It would also appear that not a single one of us has ever been called into a situation of an active shooter. And lastly, ANY repsonder is better then NO repsonder!

  2. Jaron, My response is only directed at you, and your most recent post, as to where the idea of using an 300 blackout, chambered with a 200gr, subsonic round. That, Sir, was my Opinion on what I believe to be a more appropriate weapon, rather than a Ar15, chambered in, a pistol round. If you can find my original post, you will find that I never said anything about a Ar15 chambered for a 45 pistol round. Someone, other than me , may have put that out there, but, it was not me. AS far as your most recent post, I am in full agreement, with you. However, in response to your , other, reply, that was directed, at me. I would like to clarify a few points. I am also the one, that gave my opinion on several other points. Such as my opinion that a person be capable of placing any round that he intends to send down range, within a 1 inch area of the point of impact, that he expects. That is where I brought up the Issue of the MOA. Having said that, and not having a great deal of experience in writing reply’s, in such a way, that the knowledge and experience that I have, that is logged, only inside my brain, I may not have been good, with my ability to extract that back out, and put into written form, as I am in the building of weapons, or reloading Ammo. For that, I would like to apologize to the Blog. I made a couple of mistakes. The first mistake, was to have added a 1, in front of M.O.A,, as I can, surely assure you, and prove it, if needed, that I , not only understand what M.O.A means, am capable of shooting it. I never proof read my post, and , clearly, that created some confusion. For that, I will also apologize. As to another point, that I was trying to make, and the Statements, that I made, about training, being of a great deal of importance, I will, solidly stand by my post. Where the thing about 6 inch circle came from, was from some else. They were the one that said. If you draw a 6 inch circle, you would most likely hit a vital area. I replied, that my belief, is that if you are not capable of at least MOA, then you would be likely to miss. I did however, say that it is my belief, that one should be capable of shooting moa, even at 50 yards. I also, made the same mistake, and added the 1, in front of MOA. I will also apologize to the blog, again, for failing to proof read my post, prior, to hitting send. Now, sir, likes talk about the yardage stuff. At no time, did I ever say that most school shootings happen at 25 to 50 yards. That, statement, was taken from the Authors post. I also, am not the one that stated, that I thought the police were good shots, as that, is far from my belief. As too the statements on LEO’s that started to fly around, some of the shots that were taken at me, and in what I actually said, are also incorrect. I did, in fact say that we have some LEOs, border patrol. ETC, that shoot at the range that I shoot at, that can and do, shoot MOA. Then, I also stated, that when I was told to get into the real world, that in the real world, we , also have LEO’s , involved in shoot outs, that could not, even hit their own foot. Such as the incident, that happened in California, where I stated that there was a shoot out , at BLR, where 20, something, rounds were fired, and nobody hit, anything. now , that brings me to the conclusion, that SOMEONE, has been taking the statements, that they have made to me, and twisted a lot of crap around. You,, got any idea, whom, that I might, have been? As, I feel, that I may have been unduly, and purposely slandered. So, I would suggest, that before we continue this, that certain people, might want to recheck a few things, before, this goes any further. I, sir, am finished. This blog has nothing of value for me, and, apparently, I have nothing of value, that the blog, was asking for. As to my , Real World work experience, That, sir, is, only my business, and no one else’s. I have no obligation to prove, anything, to this blog. That, was never a requirement, from the Author, in the first place. So, Jaron, just, WHO, is kidding who. The Bottom line, is the shear fact, that I MANNED UP, and I apologized, like a man. I take people at their word, without, asking for proof gf anything. I will continue to do that, until, they prove to me, that I might want to change the way I am. Manning up, is a lot more than I can say, about some of the people, on this blog. Over, Done, and Finished.

    1. Emery, it seems you’re reading the comment posts in independent chronological order ( as though you’re just reading them as they come in email notices ). If you were to read them in thread view, such as viewing the web page in a full browser, you’d see that many posts are specifically replying to other posts, not each post replying only to the one immediately preceding it. Case in point, my most recent post on 300 BLK was addressed to two other users going by “Tom” and “John” and had nothing to do with you.

      This would explain why you seem to think every comment is directed specifically at you, which is quite false. Also why you think many users are lying about you and misquoting you, and why you spent multiple posts trying to prove someone else was wrong about you, even though they never mentioned you in the first place and you ignored their explanation of such.

      As to my two “other” comments, yes, those were replies directly to your comments. I also know full well what you said and what you didn’t. I’ve made no errors in the direct quotes I’ve taken from you nor the statements I attribute to you, though you may think otherwise. I never stated you said school shooting mostly happen at 25 – 50 yards, that training wasn’t important, or that you “thought the police were good shots.”

      Regarding the last, I said you made “statements like ‘we have LOTS of MOA capable cops and border patrol’ followed immediately by ‘LEOs and deputies shooting point blank hitting nothing.'” Your actual quotes on the matter are “We have LEO;s, Border patrol agents, and several other civilians, that shoot MOA, All the way out to 300 yards,” and “The vast majority of the people that make up our county, are, either LEO’s, Border Patrol, Sheriffs Deputy’s, Ice personnel, Swat personnel and a very large group of people who are trained.”

      Regardless who first brought up the 6″ circle idea, the fact is you commented on it, thus those comments are fair game for critique. Dprato was physiologically and geometrically correct when he first brought it up. A shot kept within a 6″ circle centered on a human’s head or center of mass ( let’s say the sternum ) has a VERY good chance of intersecting a vital organ. He was arguing the +/- 1″ precision you demanded was unnecessarily strict and that a +/- 3″ deviation would be acceptable. You can still believe a 6″ target is hard for non-MOA shooters to hit if you want. But a 6″ plate is still a 2 MOA target at 300 yards, so I’d say a 2 MOA shooter would have no trouble hitting it 90% of the time at that range.

      Finally, before you pat yourself on the back for apologizing, you only apologized for not being able to express well the knowledge in your head, for using “1 MOA” instead of just “MOA,” and for not proof-reading your own posts. The first and last basically amount to, “I’m sorry if you couldn’t understand me,” which is something I guess, but not a whole lot. The middle one is pretty pointless since “1 MOA” and “MOA” are typically grammatically identical, since leaving off a specific number descriptor defaults the term to its own singular nature, or one minute of angle.

      You haven’t apologized for your many wrong assumptions about others or the insults you’ve hurled around. So no, I wouldn’t consider that apologizing like a man. But I really don’t care about that. My point was never to get you to admit you were wrong. It was to provide facts and well-supported arguments for the benefits of others that may read these comments and might otherwise think your misinformation was the gospel truth of the shooting world.

  3. MJ, I am not trying to pick a fight, with any one. I simply offered what the Author asked for, an opinion, nothing more. As to your Parkland tragedy, I cant tell you how sorry I am , that that had to even happen. But, having said that, I , in fact, did call Peterson a coward. I just happened to have done it , in a different way. I am not in the habit of calling, any man a coward, that I have never met, I was not there, and I do not know the full story, but, I felt I was close enough to make the point. If I am going to call a man a coward, I am going to do it face to face. Hanging the coward logo on a mans head, is an awful heavy load, for him to carry, given the fact, that it is going to stick to him like glue, that is never, ever going to come off, even after he is dead. His family, is going to be destroyed, for something, they had no control over. When you add up all of the people that you could hang some blame on, it ends up to be a boat f]load of people. Add in the David Hoag thing, and you have a really ugly tragedy. I am truly sorry your community, and the rest of the nation had to go thru that. Good luck gentlemen. I really hope you find the answer to this problem, because I don’t have it !, only an opinion, and that is all I was asked for

  4. Gentlemen, I am going to back out of this, It just accured to me that the individual with 28 years as a school administrator, just trumped my 50+ years of building my own weapons, and a least half of that time loading my own ammo. I also just realized that I wasted an awful amount of range time, and money in getting to the point of being able to shoot MOA. I guess I shouldn’t have spent the last 15 years working as a defense subcontractor either. Because all you really need is a magic 6 Inch circle, that you are likely to hit a vital spot with., and you are good to go. Thanks for all the latest and greatest Intel.

    1. No, you’re bowing out because you spouted a lot of indefensible nonsense and you’re claiming that people calling you out on it are “attacking” you, despite you insulting them.

      You embarrassed yourself, twice, trying to correct Belcher on bullets but didn’t bother to notice he was responding to the article, not you.

      Then you flat out made a fool of yourself with your “1 inch at any distance” statement. ANY distance? You want +/- 1″ groups at 600 yards? 1000 yards? Even assuming you meant “You have no business taking a shot unless you know you can hit within 1″ of your intended target using whatever weapon you have at the time, at your current distance to target, and any other factors of your current situation,” that’s still ridiculous. These are beat cops armed ( at best ) with lightly customized carbines, not SEAL snipers with $5000 bolt rifles.

      Instead of clarifying your meaning, you doubled down by throwing out “1 MOA” everywhere. Yes, we have lots of MOA capable shooters in America. I’m one of them. The vast majority of them depend on at least four things in order to do it: specialized firearms with high magnification optics, specialized ammo, a stationary target, and a fully supported bench rest shooting position. You’ll notice that’s almost the exact opposite of how someone will likely engage an active shooter: standing, possibly walking, shooting off hand, reflex or low-level prism optic ( or possibly stock irons ), using issued bulk ammo, moving target, and possibly while under fire. But according to you, they should be able to do all that and still hit a lima bean at 50 yards every time. You first, chief. As interesting as it might be to have all our SROs carrying DMRs and be able to pass FBI HRT quals, that’s completely unrealistic.

      Add to this your idiotic idea that you have to be a 1 MOA shooter to hit a 6″ target ( see a 6″ target at 100 yards is actually 6 MOA, meaning a 5 MOA shooter would have a really good chance of hitting it ), and statements like “we have LOTS of MOA capable cops and border patrol” followed immediately by “LEOs and deputies shooting point blank hitting nothing” and you could see why someone might doubt your knowledge and experience on the topic.

      There may be a small chance you have the experience you claim you do and are hampered by not being able to express yourself clearly. But as is, you’re coming off like a keyboard warrior that’s played too much CoD and watched too many wannabes on YouTube.

    2. Great reply to a guy whose ego is far larger than his ability to apply what he has learned over the years in a common sense way. He is obviously more interested in his opinions however indefensible then those who can look at a situation and come up with a reasonable solution and explanation.
      Great job!!!!

  5. PTR PDW fitted with an modified HK91 collapsible stock. While requiring a NFA, You have an MP5 size .308 win. Accurate well beyond 200 yds with muzzle energies that exceed any 5.56, 7.62×39 or enimic 9mm.
    The recoil is suprisingly light, with the only draw back being muzzle flash.

  6. I am trying not to dive into this thread, but somehow I get the feeling that “1 MOA” is being misapplied here.

    At one hundred yards one MOA shooting means all rounds fired are found within a circle somewhat smaller than 1.1 inches in diameter.

    1. You are correct about the 1 MOA and that is precisely why in my own comments I totally disagree with Emery Rice III.

    2. HW, I am not sure that it is being misapplied, as much as it is not understanding what I am referring to. With a few individuals twisting anything I give input on, into something that I never said, its kinda hard keeping up with all the bullshit, that’s going on here. The only point I wanted to make, is that if I was going to have someone, other than myself protecting any of MY children, then, I wanted that person to be capable of placing that round, where is was intended to go. Not, just a guess, or likely to go. If your willing to let just anybody out there, going for the good oll spray and pray. Then by all means, go look at your 99%, but, just not around our local school, as we feel that we have a few better options. The vast majority of the people that make up our county, are, either LEO’s, Border Patrol, Sheriffs Deputy’s, Ice personnel, Swat personnel and a very large group of people who are trained, and conceal carry licensed. Nice problem to have.

    3. The point that I keep getting hung up on is a situation where distances are unknown, targets require sorting, identification, and confirmation, and you might be subject to hostile fire from the original intruder(s) and possible incorrect identification of you by another responder– and trying to apply known ranges, distances and target fully identified beforehand, the rounds to be fired at your leisure with no one shooting at you.

      I am just unable to translate that one minute of angle taking your time in comfort at the range to apply to99% unknown situations where a few seconds of doubt might wind up with another one or two of the persons on site dying.

  7. I wonder about the initial question, especially from a “school protection officer” standpoint.
    Inside a school, I would prefer to see .45ACP or 10mm rather than 9mm, even with the new Honey Badger ammo.
    Outside the building, why are you engaging at 100 yds?
    The only time I could see that would be at a football game, across or down the field…and maybe at track and field events. At that point, larger caliber and maybe even a bit slower moving might fit the bill.
    Your job should be training the teachers to barricade in place, and making the perp come to you. If the perp is 100 yds out, that is a job for the LE.

  8. FN answered this question a long time ago, 5.7 in a P90. Its what all the Euro police use. Much shorter than an AR, very low recoil, 50rds per mag, and LE ammo can penetrate low level armor. There are more guns out there than ARs and Glocks…

    1. My first quibble with the P90 is the proximity of the muzzle blast to your face. It is one weapon that should have had that as an SOP option. The second quibble is the light weight of the rounds, and a serious downslide in velocity.

      Semi is much easier to handle than full, but you either need a suppressor or a sixteen inch barrel, both of which detract from the small size advantage. I got to watch a Sheriff’s Department demo of the P90 where the Sheriff was less tech and more demo. The FN guy thought they were going to a range, but the Sheriff headed out to a farm where there had been major wild hog issues.

      The 5.56x45mm was marginal, the little super light 31 grain bullet out of the P90 really was not enough.

      On the other hand, I sincerely doubt any of us will find ourselves defending students against a herd of wild hogs, so that might be moot.

    2. The reason the Euros use the P90 is because it’s a local company, not because it’s so much better than the AR-15/M4 platform ( they’re both great in their own ways ).

      A big reason listed here in favoring the AR, and a reason I agree with, is the manual of arms. A lot of Americans and LEOs already know how to handle an AR. Safety switch, magazine swap, charging, etc. That’s not to say a P90 is difficult to use, but it still takes some training time to adjust proficiencies.

      Most law enforcement agencies also already have a stock of ARs. Their armorers can rechamber a few into SRO SBRs much cheaper than buying multiple new P90s.

  9. I once was, but now I’m no longer fond of pistol calibers in long guns. If you are trying to put people down quickly, especially with multiple threats, or, a bullet at a velocity of 1300fps will not induce hydrostatic shock, and a CNS hit is necessary to immediately stop the threat. A drugged up or determined suspect can do a lot of damage hit with an eventually lethal round of handgun caliber in a non-CNS hit. When I switched our AR’s at the airport over to shorter barrels I did chronograph testing. In an airport across a tarmac or in a concourse we might engage at 100 yards, even more quite possibly. I wanted 2500 fps muzzle velocity to ensure impact velocity of a minimum of 2,000fps, with 2,200 being the ideal minimum at 100 yds.

  10. Ladies, and Gentlemen, The main point, is not the weapon. It is, not possible to find the perfect weapon, to use for all of the different mass shootings. Look at Vegas, the bar, and sandy hook. All very different. The point, is, if you cannot hit within 1 Inch of you point of aim, at any distance, then you have no business taking the shot. The last thing you want, is to be the person who cause’s collateral damage. I have said it before, train with a weapon, that shoots straight, and train and train and train, some more. If you cannot understand this, then you should not be carrying the weapon, in the first place

    1. Well if you can’t shoot unless you are one inch within your point of aim you have just eliminated 99% of the people that I see shoot at the shooting ranges I have attended and that is a lot of people. Furthermore, if you aim center of mass or center of head, if you draw a four inch to six inch circle you are very likely to hit a vital organ. That being said I think your comment is off base and totally out of the reality of what has happened in the real world. I do agree one always has to be concerned about collateral damage since you are responsible for the bullets and where they go. Also, if you over penetrate even in that one inch guideline you have set for us, you can have collateral damage. I am just wondering what your own personal experience has been to give us advice like that.

    2. Well, I think your 99%, is off base. I sure don’t see that at the ranges, that I use. Did it ever occur to you, that the people at your range, were practicing, so they could shoot 1 MOA ? We have LEO;s, Border patrol agents, and several other civilians, that shoot MOA, All the way out to 300 yards. But, that takes practice, and a lot of it.Further more, if you draw a 6 inch circle, on a mans head, if you cant shoot 1 MOA, your very likely to miss him. So, how many shots are you willing to take, guessing on where your bullet is going, in a school full of children and adults ? I am sorry that you have a problem with my advice on training and practicing, but, that is how you have to do it, if you want to shoot better. As far as the real world goes, we have LEO’s hiding behind trees, State police shooting Sheriff’s Deputy’s and point blank range shoot out where 23 rounds were fired, and NOBOGY, hit anything.
      My point is, that if your not capable of shooting 1 MOA, at least 50 yds,, then keep your weapons away from my kids school. You, just missed the whole point. The schools don’t need special weapons, what they need are people who can shoot straight, hit what they are aiming at, and have the balls to face the shooter. I resent the comment that I set a bar for you. Every man and women who chooses to EDC, sets there own bar. War can teach you some very ugly things

    3. That, dprato, is exactly what I am getting at. Using your statement that 99% of the people you see at the range, cannot shoot 1 MOA. Those people do not belong in a school with a gun. Having said that, it still leaves the other 1%. There are 347 million guns in the USA. 40 million more that people. So, taking that 1% that can shoot less 1 MOA, or better, gives us a 1 million person bank of people to make SRO;s out of them. Those are the people that I want protecting my children. It takes a lot more than a good shot to be a qualified SRO. I would love to continue this, but, there are some things , you just cant fix.

    4. Well, mj, if that’s the way you look at it, I would be wearing body armor, if I were you. because if you cant shoot 1 MOA, you had better hope, that he cant either, But, to an extent, I would most likely agree with you. Why do you think the LEO in Florida, hid, Most likely because he knew he could not shoot straight, or that he knew he was going to get shot, himself. Unfortunately, you are never going to have a school shooting, exactly the same way. The majority of the shooters, are taking their own lives. All I tried to do, was offer the author an alternative. NOT advice, as one has said. But, I thank you for your opinion.

    5. Emery, your statements aren’t quite accurate about Florida, if you’re referring to my backyard, Parkland.

      LEO was allowed to either enter or not thanks to the piece of shit Sheriff Israel who literally changed their directive from “Shall” engage to “May” engage.

      The pussies there that day especially Officer Scot Peterson (what is it about people named (scott peterson/lacy, drew peterson etc)…
      Scot decided he’d rather NOT engage letting kids die so he can collect $10k a month in his pension. Just like the following other BCS’s. A bunch of PUSSIES!!!

      Coral Springs arrived, pushed them out of the way and ran in to fully engage the spineless worthless shooter whom already left the building.

      Had they engaged, missed, even hit an incorrect target, the outcome surely could have been much more favorable. We’ll never know, but NOT engaging is never an option when you take an oath…uh, unless your weakling Sheriff makes it an ‘option’.

    6. First off I think you need to get into the real world. The fact that a person is a police officer doesn’t make them a better shot. Check out the video where the cop was teaching a firearm safety class and shot himself in the foot or the video of the Vietnam Veteran who killed a cop who did everything wrong on a traffic stop.
      Then consider what usually is going on in a school shooting with the chaos and confusion and tell me that a cop shooting under those circumstances and most likely form a standing position shouldn’t shoot unless he is sure of his 1moa. I worked with school resource officers when I volunteered for my local police department over a 4 year period of time. My background was as a school administrator for 28 years so I worked with them on things like school security. I doubt seriously that any of those folks would agree with you that they had to be able to shoot 1moa during a shooting emergency or wait for someone who could which is ridiculous. I bet there are plenty of people including myself who can shoot better than most cops. You never mentioned what your own experience or background is or where you get your information from. So in essence you are saying if you can’t shoot 1 moa then let the shooter keep shooting. Where did you get this notion that most situations involve a 25 to 50 yard shooting distance? Personally, I don’t think you have a clue about what you are talking about. I would love to see those border patrol people get that 1 moa in a free standing position with people running all over the place. Who are you kidding?

    7. @ Dprato, you nailed it. Active shooter ain’t about hitting a piece of paper. As taught in self defense, do something, not nothing.

    8. dprato, or what ever your name is. I have a quick question, for you, before I dropout of this. WHERE do you get the pure crap, that flows out of your mouth, so easily? You learn that as an administrator? You, really, need to learn to read, again. No where did I ever make the comment, that I thought Police officers were good shots. As an awful lot of them, cant hit anything at PBR. NO Where did I ever say that most school shootings happen at 25 to 50 yards. So, twisting some ones words around to make you look brighter than you are, is insulting. But it does reinforce , not only mine, but an awful lot of people around this country, on our views of just what we think of some of the School administrators, that have managed to slip into their positions, under the radar, one way or the other. However should you ever feel the need to test my experience with fire arms, then feel free to stop into our range, for your very own demonstration. Just, bring a lot of cash, cause this, sir, is gonna cost you now. So, Who is kidding who, now ?

    9. Still haven’t identified yourself or your credentials to give us your expert advice on something you know nothing about. Diversion doesn’t work nor your BS. Have a good day and save us the pontification. Obviously the number of people on here who disagree with you should be enough to convince you we don’t agree with your nonsense.

    10. Still no comment from you as to offering, nothing of your own to the Author, or is your claim to fame spreading false and misleading statements about quotes I have never made. I also see, that you still haven’t learned to read. I did offer up my credentials, just not to your dumb ass, given the fact, that you cant read. There on the blog. I also noticed that you didn’t accept my invitation for a little demonstration? What’s the matter, having a problem putting your money where your mouth is? Mr. Administrator/expert on SRO’s, that you have only talked to. Don’t your local deputies seek you out at your range, to zero their service AR’s, like mine do ? You, talk about Diversion, your badgered replies to me are so full of shit, I am surprised that you found the room in your reply to fit that in. When you get the balls, and the cash, get back in touch. I will give you the time and location, but until then kYFMS
      Like I said before, You just cant fix, some things, like being stupid. As far as not knowing what I am talking about, your simple mind couldn’t hold half of what I know about weapons, and that doesn’t even touch shooting ability, or knowledge on building them, or repairing them. instead of badgering people who try to offer their opinion on things, without offering anything of your own, try reading up on a few things. never mind, that’s going to be a problem because of your reading ability. Before you attempt to take me up, on my offer, you might want to check out some ballistics on the Ar15 10.5 running the new Speer 308150blkgdb. pretty impressive. When its chambered up in the 16 INCH, its pure Gold. Oh, one last thing. I found out where you came up with all of the crap, that you said I said. You picked the 25-50yd up from the author, you then picked the 100yd thing up from another post reply, from someone. I believe that you just made the shit up in your head about saying that I thought all cops were good shots, cause you sure as S–T didn’t get it from me. Guess we all know who’s kidding who ! I do. I would add a little more, but my side is starting to hurt, from LMAOAY

    11. You know, acting like the victim of slander while you’re completely badmouthing someone back tends to be hypocritical. “How dare you not respect me and my legendary knowledge, you ignorant, insignificant maggot?!?” Yeah, real productive and convincing.

      And despite your bravado and smoke screens, the only credentials you’ve provided are vague:
      50+ years building your own firearms
      25 years hand loading ammo
      15 years as defense contractor

      Just like most everything else you’ve said, these are pretty meaningless w/o extra context. Building firearms does not automatically translate to firearm shooting skill. It doesn’t guarantee the quality of the arms you built, good or bad. It doesn’t say how many you’ve built or how many different types/platforms. And just because you may have been doing it for 50 years doesn’t mean you’re better at it than someone who only built their first AR last year. I’ve seen college sophomores with better technical insight and instincts than 30 year database veterans.

      Same goes with hand loading. Just because you’ve been doing it doesn’t mean you’re particularly good or bad at it. It could mean you have advanced knowledge of pressure, burn rates, free bore, and ballistics. It could also mean you do nothing more than follow Hornady recipes in Quick Load.

      A “defense contractor” is a nebulous term that could mean anything from a PMC commander stationed in downtown Mosul to the volunteer night security guard at the local assisted living center. It doesn’t guarantee any leadership abilities, tactical expertise, marksmanship, or really anything else.

      Now, since I have a hunch you won’t try to verifiably prove your experience, I suggest, if you want to be taken seriously, you demonstrate your expertise by putting forth and demonstrating points with logically reasoned arguments backed up by supporting facts. Simply yelling, “This is how it has to be and how dare you question my brilliance!” isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself.

      Whether or not you’re actually a sub-MOA shooter is irrelevant, and I don’t think anyone is questioning that. What we are questioning is your requirement of being a 1 MOA shooter before engaging an active shooter. Just because someone is a good shot from the bench doesn’t mean they’re a good shot while standing and moving around. Just because someone can shoot a precision rifle with a huge scope doesn’t mean they’re proficient with an iron sight carbine. Just because someone’s a good shooter at a calm, leisurely range doesn’t mean they can do it quickly in high stress situations. Expecting someone to shoot MOA or better off hand while standing is already unrealistic ( if you want me to explain the biomechanic reasons why, I’d be happy to, but right now I’d rather save the time and space ). Expecting them to do it all the time, every time, under pressure, when lives are on the line, and they’re possibly taking fire is absolutely asinine.

    12. You are right on once again. The interesting thing is that the philosophy of dealing with an active shooter has changed from the police departments no less. Back a while they would say call the police and then realized in most cases it was impossible for them to respond in time to do anything but clean up and investigate. Now the philosophy is to engage the shooter if at all possible to minimize the damage. And just for the record, I have an uncle, and four cousins in law enforcement and when I volunteered for the Longmont, CO PD one of the things I did with them was to be an observer of their in school building training for dealing with active shooters. I wonder if our friend Emery can say the same and by the way the issue of being a 1 MOA shooter never came up in any of that training. So your analysis of Emery is right on target.

  11. Mr. Belcher, If you would take the time, and research the CORRECT bullet, that I am referring to, you will find you a wrong ! The Bullet that I was speaking about is the NEW Speer 308150BLKGDB. That stands for ” 308 caliber, 150grain bullet, made, especially for 300 Black out, and it is Gold Dot Bonded. It is NOT a 3″ short barrel cartrage.

  12. Another Kel-Tec fan here. Recently purchased a Sub 2000 Gen 2 in 9mm M&P using much the same line of thought as the author. I find this to be an extremely reliable, light weight, highly accurate, and easily concealable weapon that can be quickly deployed. And it’s a great suppressor host!

  13. There’s a reason the the Bureau (after extensive testing) decided to replace their 9mm and .40 S&W submachineguns with 5.56 NATO carbines and that reason was overpenetration. With ammunition appropriate to tactical use (i.e. not ball), 5.56 NATO is significantly less likely to overpenetrate than subsonic 9mm or .40. As a result of the FBI testing, DEA recalled all of their Colt SMGs and replaced them with Rock River LAR-15s. While pistol caliber carbines do have significantly less muzzle blast, the trade-off in potential overpenetration isn’t worthwhile.

  14. Would like to know what components you use for your edc full size M&P. 9.
    Not happy with my cc set up…

    Enjoyed the article I don’t own an AR but I do like the theory presented. Sure has me thinking.
    Look forward to your reply.
    Thanks in advance
    K Daniel

  15. Probably get laughed at, but my up close rifle is the KelTec Sub 2000 gen 1 in Glock 17. Dead on at 50 yards with the Kel Tec sights, over 2000 rounds without a FTAnything. Am going to change out the plastic feed ramp for metal, and am contemplating a pic to mount a red dot to, but I love it as is.

  16. If you have never shot a 9mm AR, believe me it is a whole different animal than both a 5.56 and a 9mm pistol. You have a great defense round with minimal blast even in a 8 or 10 inch barrel and the ability for great repeatable accuracy versus a pistol. I say this because I have shot at a steel range with both my inventory of 9mm pistols and a AR in 9mm and the difference is night and day. At 25 yards I can make hits with every one of a 33 rd mag, even the 4” (feet) on the silhouette target). With my pistol I’m lucky to get all of the 10” plates in a row. That may not sound impressive but the hits are also a lot quicker. In fact I much prefer a 9mm AR for my home defense over the 5.56.

    1. Absolutely agree.. as everything he mentions about the use of a 9mm vs 5.56 AR is wrong. His selection of optics, dots and 45* offsets. Is just baffling at best. One MOA etched dot.. works when batteries don’t. Greater precision than open sights.. PROPER ammo for classroom shooting.. semi jacketed frange. Oh.. and since it’s on LE letterhead. You can go ahead and use a stock!

  17. It is, really, very, very simple. You practice, practice, and practice, with a weapon, that will shoot straight. Then, WHEN, , you can shoot straight, you become an RSO. But, You, still, have to practice, practice, and practice ! Then, practice, some more.

  18. All good points. The compatibility issues would be resolved, single magazine use. 33 round mags available for a higher capacity. with the red dot, if the person is wearing body armor, a head shot would be significantly easier.

    And for persons with rooms that are longer than 25 feet, you have greater chance of hitting what your aiming at.

  19. Gentlemen and ladies, the answer to all of this is just to change ammunition in the CAR 15. Go to something from DRT ammunition or from Glazer and use a frangable projectile. Range would be more than adequate and penetration of walls, thus possible collateral damage, practically non-existent. Do keep some conventional ammunition on hand for barricades, though. With the ammunition change, the weapon would be good for close shots and longer shoo=ts as needed, and a simple magazine change would give the user penetration should the assailant hide behind cover.

  20. Great points from the article to the comments. I’ve been itching for a very lightweight 9mm carbine/AR type platform.

    In the articles scenario, school shooter, I think this would be best choice. Less stress to good shooter being less recoil, less flash etc. Remember, she is LEO, not SWAT.

    Biggest concern though might be bullet proof vest, but I still think direct hit would be enough to incapacitate until further rounds etc.

    I think the SBR are pretty optimal for regular LEO unless they are highly proficient in the AR platform which plenty are.

    My Brother/inlaw uses the 9mm rifle over AR as a US Marshall, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that.

    He also stated a concern for penetration against a ‘vest’ but also agreed a well placed shot in the vest would likely incapacitate a shooter…while not permanently, likely enough to subdue or use further rounds to stop the threat. Great article…

    Please NAME your favorite Lightweight 9mm carbines/SBR/long pistols that you recommend.

  21. Appreciate your opinion on 9mm platform. I retired from LE I was a handgun, subgun, and rifle instructor. I taught team tactics and was on cqb team for 10 years. Over penetration was always a concern. To solve this problem our tactical team used defrag bullets in .223 calibre. I believe 9mm bullets have just as high a risk of over penetration as do 5.56, .223 etc. As a school recource officer, the AR Pistol platform with frag bullets would be optimal for cqb and distance engagement. Thanks

  22. Another alternative, would be, to use a 7.5 inch 300BLK Pistol, loaded with a 200gr sub sonic round, and tipped with a suppressor. Quiet, deadly, and has the range. Add the Light under the barrel, that includes the laser.

  23. I wanted to echo HW Stones comments and add that shooters are starting to wear ballistic vests now, which prevents penetration from most handgun rounds. Rifle caliber rounds will still penetrate and get the job done.

  24. You know absolutely nothing about 556 performance and have obviously never killed anything with one. Therefore you shouldn’t be writing, making statements nor recommending anything.

    1. I always thought a pistol carbine was a “PC” answer to a serious question. Accurate, long/ short range lethality. Pistol cartridges just do NOT consistently fit those parameters. NOT even close.

      That being said. Pistol caliber carbines are a great answer to cheap practice.

      Of course, the ULTIMATE “answer” is the operator of WHATEVER chosen weapon system.

    2. Instead of making a baseless claim, why don’t you try explaining what you mean and why the author is wrong.

      Yes, bullet choice in .223/5.56 can mitigate over-penetration risk. But it’s always going to be very loud ( especially if fired indoors ) and the shorter you cut the barrel, the bigger the muzzle fireball. It’s great for outdoor engagements at 100+ yards, but you have much better options available if your focus is defending a school campus.

  25. I like the pistol cartridge use in the AR or similar platform for SRO use in a room-to-room enclosed combat scenario. The only suggestion I would make would be to replace the 9mm with the .45 Auto. That would actually suggest than an ideal platform would be the venerable Thomson with a 50 round drum. The duty pistol could also be .45. I’m not seeing any real need for the service pistol and long gun having interchangeable magazines.

  26. I’m thinking that if you have a rifle in hand, you should have a caliber that can dump rifle level energy into the assailant to stop the fight as quick as possible. 300 BLK would seem to be ideal for this situation with heavy quick expanding loads. If a pistol caliber, then hot 10mm 155gr (Underwood 1500fps) should prevent excessive penetration while providing nearly 1000 ft/lbs out of a short barreled rifle

    The saying goes, a pistol is used to get to your rifle, not your pistol is used to get your other pistol with a shoulder stock. My two cents.

  27. From the standpoint of a large database of military close quarters encounters I will disagree with your conclusion regarding pistol calibers for a high density environment.

    All of the pistol calibers have serious over penetration on the materials used for those buildings and retaining walls. There are some who feel the pistol caliber would be less likely to pass through a normal wall, but the actual stats show less over penetration for FMJ 5.56mm rifle rounds than “normal” pistol bullets in soft point, hollow point, or FMJ.

    All rounds will penetrate some walls, but the 5.56x45mm in the same bullet types as the pistol round being compared to it is less likely to carry through several of the walls the building at seven meters than the pistol rounds– again of the same bullet type.

    Very close quarters defense of a building by single or multiple attackers is a less than two meters to more than one hundred fifty meters range scenario. If the defender is at ground level and the attacker is across the playground on top of a two story building the distance is greater than most people expect.

    Without an intervening wall the 5.56mm has shown it will quickly incapacitate a close and a very close quarters attacker, and in a school you are not trying to blast through walls, you will be almost desperate to ensure your target is fully and clearly established and identified before pulling the trigger.

    A good 5.56x45mm weapon is able to handle all of those distances out of an eleven inch, fourteen inch, or sixteen inch barrel.

    The weak point is the person trying to defend the students and staff, and a quick search will show you that several different weapons are available in 5.56x45mm, all with extremely high rates of reliability in both function and stopping an armed attacker.

    There is a new forward piston system upper for the AR-15 lower that uses the design features of the AR-180 and allows for function with the stock folded on the side of the weapon with a sixteen inch barrel in extremely confined areas, and a quick flip to open it for longer range response.

    A lot of us think of it as “what do I bet my life on” in one of these situations but it really goes deeper, and is more about what is the best method of ensuring the highest survival rate for the students and staff.

    My conclusion would not be a larger weapon using a less effective pistol caliber cartridge with a greater danger of over penetration.

    1. Thanks for typing all that – I completely agree with you! Old FBI study showed 9mm had more over penetration than 5.56.
      The other option for carry is 14.5” bbl in which you still get full performance.
      LE switched to carbines for a reason. If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it

  28. @ J. Bibby. I like where you’re going with this. For the school setting though, why not an HK mp5, or the P90? Something along those lines? Maybe one of the newer Sig PDWs. Forget the duty sidearm. I mean, if you had something like the p90, you have an extra layer of safety because all you have to do is secure the magazines. You cant just go down to your local dealer and pick those up. But you’re right, adding a few inches to a 9mm barrel gives you excellent ballistics.
    Good thoughts.

  29. Meant to add that my brother’s CAR-15 was in the police cruiser beside him. But to reach for it meant he had to break cover and take the risk of multiple hits from an SKS.

    It would have been no more accessible in the trunk, so he used what he had with him and used it very effectively.

  30. Anywhere I’d take a SBR 9mm AR for defense I’d rather have the 300 BLK. Several options in that platform that work great, and it is no more difficult to shoot than a 5.56..

    But as usual there is no single right answer. For the right person, the 458 SOCOM might even make more sense on two and four-legged assailants. Some campuses have a greater risk of rabid dogs, coyotes, and even mountain lions than they do for shooters.

    When it is time to use it, it is time to stop the fight. And despite the 9mm’s amazing ammo choices and stopping potential, it isn’t anywhere near the ballistics and energy of a 300 BLK or 458 SOCOM.

    As with anything, that carries a level of extra responsibility, so practice drills using the sight of choice under multiple lighting conditions. I prefer reflex with backup flip up irons for speed and to minimize broadcasting my presence.

    However, there is something to be said for a laser/flashlight combo that diverts a shooter’s attention from the victims/targets. Just make sure you have a minimum level III vest on (not just IIIa).

    You can pretty much put all the sighting tools you want on it if you practice using them.

    I am conflicted about the AR in the trunk issue. Absolutely not practical to carry it around all the time or advertise its presence. But in the trunk when you need it is marginally better than not at all. I don’t have an answer for that.

    Several years back as a patrol officer, my brother took out an assailant who had an SKS and had already wounded an officer. His weapon? A Glock in 40 S&W. Range? About 75 yards. Five shots of seven connected. Two in the head, two in the torso, and one in the femoral artery.

    I used to hunt with him as a teen and he was never that good. I have to assume he trained to fight and it paid off.

  31. Nicely done article. I like the pistol caliber logic. I would go with just a lightweight red dot to keep weight and bulk down. What bullet would you use in the 300BO? I have a 300BO and a 6.8mm SPC pistol. The 6.8 is by far superior in kinetic energy, bullet selection, and magazine feeding reliability.

    1. I personally use either Barnes 110 gr or Maker Bullets 190 gr depending if I want super or subsonic. The Barnes opens up at +1450fps, The Maker at 750 fps IIRC.

    2. Those round are also my top choices in the 300BO. Both rounds will overpenetrate, however. Also consider, the 190 subsonic is the equivalent of a 45 caliber pistol in kinetic energy. Still, the 6.8 trumps in supersonic performance.

    3. I don’t know where this idea that 300 BLK subsonic = .45 ACP started, but it needs to die. Typical 300 BLK sub is 200 – 220gr @ 1000 – 1050 fps, or 440 – 540 ft-lbs, while most .45 loads are 230gr @ 870 fps or slower, or under 390 ft-lbs. Yes, you can find hot .45 loads in specific circumstances ( like +P ammo out of a longer SMG barrel ) that matches certain BLK loads in energy ( 230gr @ 950fps does equal 190gr @ 1050fps ), but then you’re using exceptions to argue a rule.

      And energy alone is not the biggest factor in ballistic performance. The BLK retains velocity much better so has less drop and less energy bleed off at distance. Many BLK subs can even penetrate IIIa armor, something .45 can’t ( though, yes, that can mean overpenetration risk ).

      In almost every instance, 300 BLK will have greater energy at 100 yards than .45 ACP will have at the muzzle.

    4. As for the 300 Blackout versus 45 ACP– please remember that velocity is a major player in “foot pounds of energy” so a lighter bullet going fast has more potential energy than a heavier bullet going slower.

      Mass momentum transfer is a measurement of how much is left within the target, so anything exiting out the back of the target is subtracted from the numbers.

      If you take a recently killed and unbled 180 pound hog and hang it on a slider to allow transfer to show the actual transfer, the numbers do not always match the behavior of the target.

      Interestingly, 230 ACP FMJ at 850fps and 300 Blackout 200 grain hollow point both seem to move the hog about the same at the same distances.

      That is where the “blackout’s about the same as acp” comes from. In the middle of a gunfight the calculators don’t win, no matter how great the numbers look, and the blackout hollowpoint and acp hollowpoint more or less match up, the fmj loads match up, and numbers aside, the effectiveness is about the same with the acp having less penetration than the blackout.

      Doggone it, somebody needs to create a magic bullet that does whatever it needs to do when it hits so we can all just carry that magic bullet and not worry about it.

    5. I understand ½ mv^2 quite well. My point is I find the .45 to 300 BLK comparison wrong because it’s a huge oversimplification. First, equal kinetic energy does not always mean equal terminal performance. Bullet weight, shape, design, and velocity do. Second, even if two particular loads do have similar energy and terminal results, how they shoot, how they get to the target, and how they do the terminal damage more often than not are quite different.

      I get what you’re saying about the hog slider, but saying both rounds “SEEM to move the hog ABOUT THE SAME at the same distances” is quite unscientific ( emphasis mine ). Such an experiment involves a relatively large mass combined with a small amount of energy. Assuming perfect conservation of momentum in an inelastic collision between said hog and your given .45 with no other resistance, the pig would be moving 1.86 inches per second afterward. The 300 BLK would result in 2.0187 in/s. To the naked eye that’s going to appear “about the same” but it’s not. And that doesn’t include the weight of the slider that’s moving with the pig, the static and dynamic friction in the slider, or possible differences in impulse length between .45 and 300 projectiles ( which has a difference on overcoming friction ).

      I’m saying there are a LOT of variables impacting final results. It’s possible each round has a very similar set of variables. It’s just as possible that each has a very different set, but all still lead to similar outcomes. As I said, it’s gross oversimplification to assume most .45 and most subsonic BLK are about equal just because a few loadings in each have similar muzzle energy. More often than not, subsonic BLK will have 100 ft-lbs, or 25%, more energy. I’m not trying to say the .45 is a bad round for this application. Paul Harrell has demonstrated ball .45 ammo has plenty of punch for even medium game hunting. You’re not going to make something “more dead” between either of these rounds if you hit it right.

      I also disagree with you that in a gunfight, they’re going to match up. You admit the BLK has better penetration. That means shooting through barriers, and yes, a lot of BLK subs will shoot through IIIa body armor. That’s something .45 simply can’t do. The BLK retains its velocity better, meaning less drop and better impact at distance. Admittedly at close range, that doesn’t mean anything. But if you have to engage farther out, it makes aiming easier and faster. I’ve set up my carbine’s sights so it’s zeroed +/- 1″ from 10 – 80 yards using the subs of my choice. The BLK also allows switching between subs AND supers depending on the situation.

      Is the BLK better than the .45 at everything? Of course not. It’s louder, more expensive, has bigger risk of overpenetration, the rounds can bind in some mags, and it can be finicky in tuning the gas system to operate correctly with different loads if you’re not careful. Can they do some jobs equally well? Yes. But I don’t treat my BLK as equal to my .45 and I don’t treat my .45 as equal to my BLK. Just like I don’t say two automobiles have the same performance because they have the same horsepower or that two TVs are basically the same because they have identical resolution.

      Though as soon as you find that magic bullet, let me know so I can buy a couple hundred.

    6. “SEEM to move the hog ABOUT THE SAME at the same distances” is a way of saying preliminary testing was done but more resolution is required. It just costs money. Lots and lots of money.

      There are a lot of variables in the targets, and what the target is wearing may make one bullet look better than another in the same caliber.

      I was halfway waiting for someone to add the new plastic compound bullets to the pot, and thankfully we did not get out into that. What I was trying to say is that in the preliminary testing without bullet resistant overlays that the only two rounds that seemed almost identical in how much they slid the target were the 300 and the 45, and from that the huge wave of “then they are the same” got started. The numbers look one way, the preliminary testing did not support it for un-shielded targets, and I checked and my wallet did not have the funds available to do the statistical three hundred plus comparisons to see what one set of bullets would say, then expand it to a dozen more bullet sets.

      I feel the 5.56mm would be a better choice than the 300, but that also seems to depend on the phase of the moon and if the butterfly effect is included or not.

      I’m careful to not over claim it, but doggone it, we need that magic bullet.

    7. Ah, I see. I thought you meant you just plinked at some hog carcasses just to see what would happen, not that you were trying to do it in a controlled environment. Didn’t mean to lay into you, my apologies if I came off that way.

      But I agree with you, the 5.56 has better options for frangible, non-penetrating bullets and loads, which may be the trump card in an SRO scenario. Does the BLK’s extra versatility matter in such a situation? I don’t know. I would much prefer an SBR in 5.56, 300 BLK, or 277 Wolverine than any pistol caliber carbine, though. Apart from potentially sharing mags with a service sidearm, I can’t think of an advantage the PCC brings.

  32. Opting for a pistol round instead of a rifle round in this situation is unmitigatedly ridiculous. There’s plenty of choice in rifle cartridges to mitigate over penetration while maintaining the benefits of range, soft armor defeating, hydraulic shock, and reliability in the platform. Also, you realize those Speer loads are for short barreled pistols, and not short barreled rifles, right? A designed 3″ barrel bullet in a 10″ barrel isn’t optimal by any means, and a 9mm load is highly likely to over penetrate with the extra velocity of a longer barrel.

    1. The Speer bullet, 308150BLKGDB, IS NOT a shot barrel bullet. It was designed, just for the 300 Blackout. The only difference between a 10.5 inch short barrel rifle, and a 10.5 pistol, is the stock

    2. Taken directly from the article, “Speer 124-grain short barrel cartridges.” That load is designed for 9mm pocket pistols with barrels around 3″. The author seems to think it makes sense to put these through a 10.5″ PCC/SBR. It does not, even if I accept that a PCC is optimal for this purpose, which I do not. Right platform, wrong chambering, wrong load.

  33. Follow up to prior post. That round has less than 1.1 in elevation change, over 125yds, when sighted at 25yds. Its flat shooting with all the punch you will ever need. Swap out your upper to a 16inch barrel, and you get the same results, all the way out to 250 Yds.

  34. Take a serious look at the 300 blackout with a 10.5 inch barrel, and a 1.7 twist. Load it with Speers new 308150BLKGDB, and you have one awesome self defense weapon. That combo will produce 1950 FPS at the muzzle, and 1266 ft lbs of energy. At 125yds, you still have 1757 FPS and 1024 ft lbs of energy, Lighter powder loads offer even more value, in tight quarter engagements The Speer bullet is a 150gr with a .463 BC Lil gun loaded at 21.0 grs and bullet seated to 2.180 lightly crimped, and the fight is over !.

  35. The disadvantage of a pistol caliber AR (other then the 556/223 )would be the over penetration. The 556/223 is designed to tumble at close proximity shooting making it a far better choice for a school setting. The noise factor is a very big disadvantage however.

  36. I agree. I use a AR40s&w suppressed for home defense due to its small size, controlled muzzle flash and not a huge over penetration concern when using hollow points.

  37. Right on, Just publish a booklet on that same solution. But I am getting 300 yards out of it and potentially 450, versatility is king

  38. I question where the author got the statistics that most engagements will be at 25 to 50 yards in a school setting. Most of the stories I have read about people who disarmed shooters was by grabbing their magazines, tackling them and whatever. I can’t imagine trying to take down an active shooter in a crowded cafeteria, gymnasium, auditorium with a firearm at a distance of 25 to 50 yards. Some of these shooters have even turned their weapons on themselves. I am continually amazed at some of the articles on here where people either don’t really have the experience they are talking about or try to translate a military or police mentality. I also think the article is titled incorrectly as personal self defense and long distance don’t really seem to match up. Why would someone who has 20 acres and have a long range weapon think that at long distances they are talking about self defense? That’s like being in a war not a self defense situation.

  39. You will get 40 opinions from the first 40 commenters. I have 24 years military and wore 5 different badges and I too do not care for the AR platform in close quarters. When given the choice I carried either a shotgun or mini-14. I have also owned a 9mm rifle (Camp Carbine) for 30 years, simply not enough power. I also own the cool little KelTec Sub 2000, with mags that also fit my Glock 19, cool little gun, just not enough power if you are facing some fool with an AR 15 with a bump stock.

    In a crowded school, you may get only one shot before the shooter moves on or shoots you. A 9mm carbine only gives you about a 15-20% increase in velocity. Maye 400 foot pounds or less at the muzzle.. My suggestion is think like a sky marshal. I use frangible bullets for my ARs. Think about it, if you hit they explode into the target, if you miss the come apart on the first wall or floor they hit. I have also a 300BLK and a 7,62 x 39 AR, way too much penetration for indoor use. I killed a big white tail with the 7,62 x 39, Remington Core lock soft points. Bullet went completely through the deer’s chest (measured at 48 inches) and left a 2 inch exit wound on the far side, same as with a 30-06 or large caliber. Also, if you need to take a long shot across a school yard, the 9mm is going to drop 8-10 inches at 100 yards, and really will not have much power at say 100 yards. From a 10 inch barrel, the 9mm will start a little over 400 foot pounds and be down to about 250 foot pounds at 100 yards, with standard ammo. No agency is going to let you use Plus P Plus in a school. And on another note, while the MP5 with full auto ability was cool in police departments, they will never be issued to school resource officer, not accurate enough, for shooting at a moving person in a school. No major police department I am aware of is using what you suggest, they all went to frangible ammo in an M4 type platform starting around 2008 or so. Not to rag, just think you are overthinking what many of us tried a decade or so ago. Ruger tried to convert us all to pistol caliber carbine I 9mm and 40 SW about 15 years ago, then stopped production in 2007 due to low demand. Then suddenly they have brought a similar one back to market. So, I think SWAT teams have concluded they need to power of the 5.56 and have concluded frangible bullets are the best option. FWIW. If you think about it, even the 30 caliber carbine would be far superior for that use than the 9mm. More power, range, and the little things weigh nothing. Slap on a sight and laser and good to go.

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