Due to the increased numbers of concealed carry holders, the .380 ACP as a convenient carry option is generating a lot of new interest. New models are appearing almost daily? Why? The demand placed on the industry from new shooters buying handguns at record numbers to protect themselves from the crime and anarchy gripping our country. Who can blame them?
Newcomers to firearms must first overcome the fear of the noise and recoil, not to mention developing the hand strength required to operate this strange new device safely. Those are all real concerns for new shooters, and they make the .380 caliber an easy choice due to its mild exhibition of those traits. .380 pistols are also small in stature, making portability easy. Their size notwithstanding (when compared to other choices) they can provide a viable option for self-defense.
.380 ACP
The .380 ACP (9×17mm) (Automatic Colt Pistol) is a rimless, straight-walled pistol cartridge that headspaces on the mouth of the case. It was developed by firearms designer John Moses Browning. It was introduced in 1908 by Colt in its (then new) Colt Model 1908 pocket hammerless semi-automatic blowback pistol. It has been a popular self-defense cartridge ever since. The .380 ACP has been known by other names, including .380 Auto, 9x17mm, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, and 9mm Browning Court. However, it should not — under any circumstances — be confused with .38 ACP.
The .380 ACP has experienced widespread usage since its introduction in the United States (1908) and Europe. It was adopted by the armies of at least five nations as their standard pistol cartridge before World War II. Additionally, the popular commercial models, such as the Walther PPK, were popular with civilians and a certain ‘British Agent’ who popularized it.
While the .380 ACP is considered by most to be a moderately-powerful pistol round, it is compact and light. Admittedly, it has a relatively short range and less stopping power than other modern pistol cartridges. However, depending on the load, it nonetheless remains a popular self-defense cartridge for shooters who want a smaller, lightweight pistol with manageable recoil. The .380 ACP is slightly less powerful than a standard-pressure .38 Special. It uses 9mm (.355) diameter bullets. The standard bullet weights are generally 80-, 85-, 90-, 95-, 100-, 115-, and 120-grain, though 90-grain is the most common.
I was no different that anyone else and 9mm and .45 ACP were the ticket until the reality of carrying daily settled in. Then, something smaller looked like it might be a better choice. Admittedly, in the old days…, crime was not as bad, and I weighed the odds. My activities rarely, if ever, took me to high crime areas.
As a civilian, the chances of me getting hit by lightning were better than me having to use a gun for self-defense. I decided that I shot well enough that a .380 might just be what the doctor ordered. Now, the year was 1974, and the Gun Control Act of 1968 was in full affect. So, all small, concealable handguns of foreign manufacture were restricted from entry into the U.S. What to do, what to do?
Browning
At that time, I was a good and consistent customer of the local sporting goods shop, Canoga Sporting Goods and had ingratiated myself to the owner. He knew of my quest and called to let me know he had what I was looking for — even though I was not yet aware of what it was. It turned out to be a Browning (always a sign of quality) Model 1910/22 Semi Automatic Pistol that had been altered for importation after passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
That semi-automatic pistol had target sights a flared, thumb-rest grips added, a longer barrel, and a new designation — 1910/71. I, of course, could not resist it. It was my first .380 ACP. It was stylish and fit perfectly in my “man purse.” I even liked the grip safety, so it assumed number one position as my EDC.
The gun shot well. The only thing that I did not like was the thumb safety. It was a flat, round disk that was difficult to operate. So, off it went to Master Pistol Smith Jim Hoag for him to work his magic. And, he did! Hoag tuned the action and fabricated a new safety. I carried it that way for many years. It was comfortable to shoot, with mild manners, and surprisingly accuracy. So, maybe the target appellation was correct.
Walther
Having been a fan of the James Bond 007 franchise, I took notice of the pistol he carried — Walther PPK. The thought of me being as cool as 007 had crossed my mind. I thought it would behoove me to investigate acquiring one. At my favorite gun emporium of the day, I was informed that because of the good old Gun Control Act, PPKs were as rare as “unobtainium.” However, they did have the slightly larger, but still cool, new PPK/s in stock. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you what happened next, so here is a little history.
In 1930, Walther released a smaller version of the PP, which it called the PPK (Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell or “Police Pistol Detective Model”). It featured a shorter grip, barrel, slide, frame, with reduced magazine capacity. The PPK was more concealable than the original PP and more suited for plainclothes police, intelligence agents, and undercover work. So much so, that during World War II, PPKs were issued to the German military, Luftwaffe, and various police agencies — including the SS and Gestapo.
Following World War II, the Allied powers prohibited all arms manufacture in Germany. Given the lack of production capacity combined with the prohibition of manufacturing, Walther decided to grant licenses to produce its various products. In 1952, Walther licensed production of the PP series pistols to a French company, Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin, also known as Manurhin.
Manurhin made the parts, but the pistol was assembled either at Saint-Étienne arsenal (marked “Made in France”) or by Walther in Ulm (marked “Made in West Germany” and having German proof-marks). In 1978, Ranger Manufacturing of Gadsden, Alabama was licensed to manufacture the PPK and PPK/S. These versions were distributed by Interarms of Alexandria, Virginia. Currently, they are produced at its U.S. manufacturing plant in Fort Smith, Arkansas.
The firearm is a double-action/single-action with a decocking safety. It operates in the following manner. The external hammer is cocked by either thumbing it back or when the slide is pulled rearward to chamber a round. Pushing the safety lever downward releases the hammer and rotates the firing pin block into position to separate the hammer and spring-loaded firing pin. Moving the safety lever upward takes the gun out of safe mode and allows the pistol to be fired double-action by simply pulling the trigger.
The slide moves rearward with the energy of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear. This happens due to the expanding gas created by the ignition of gunpowder. This blowback action ejects the empty case and re-cocks the hammer to allow the following shots to be fired in single-action mode. The slide remains open once the last cartridge is fired.
As mentioned, the Walther’s popularity in the U.S. was based on the Bond series. However, here is a little something not everyone is aware of. Initially, Bond was woefully under-gunned with a .25 ACP Beretta Model 418 semi-automatic pistol that he carried in a shoulder rig. On the advice of British firearm expert Geoffrey Boothroyd, who felt, “this sort of gun was a lady’s gun, and not a really nice lady at that,” author Ian Fleming re-armed Bond with a Walther PPK in its original 7.65 mm Browning (.32 ACP) chambering.
Fleming was grateful for Boothroyd’s advice and replied to him in a letter. Fleming wrote, “As Bond’s biographer, I am most anxious to see that he lives as long as possible. I shall be most grateful for any further technical advice you might like me to pass on to him.”
Prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, the PPK was imported into the United States without restriction. The gun came in a sturdy cardboard box embossed with a faux-lizard-skin surface. Also included were a factory target showing a five-shot group, owner’s manual, spare magazine, and brass cleaning rod. The PPK/s is another example of a firearm being designed by Government fiat. Under the GCA legislation, a pistol intended for import had to earn a minimum number of points for various “sporting” features.
The PPK failed to qualify. Size, weight, and magazine capacity issues resulted in the GCA prohibiting the PPK from being imported — it was an ounce too light and carried too few rounds in the magazine to satisfy import restrictions.
In order to continue PPK sales in the United States, Walther overcame the restrictions by developing the PPK/S, which teamed the frame of the PP with the slide and barrel of the PPK. This added 1.8 ounces, 0.2-inch height, and an additional round in the magazine. Therefore, it met import requirements and allowed the PPK/S to be legally imported. It is presumed that the “S” added to the PPK designation stands for “sporting,” which was the intention of the restrictions.
The PPK’s prominent placement in the James Bond franchise, and other spy films, has contributed greatly to its high visibility and popularity. Among its millions of fans, The King himself, Elvis Presley, owned two PPK/S pistols — one was gold-plated and intricately engraved, while the other featured a nickel finish with ornate engraving on the slide, frame, and portions of the grip. The grip included his name, Elvis’ trademark “TCB” (Taking Care of Business), and lightning bolt.
It is easy to like the PPK/s because it is an all-steel gun, built tank tough, absorbs recoil nicely, and settles in your hand. It’s double-action/single-action works well for concealed carriers who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked. I found the ones that I have owned to be very accurate with more than acceptable sights for a carry gun. I carry mine with a round in the chamber. After decocking takes the gun off safe, I rely on the double-action pull as I would with a revolver. Easy peassy!
Colt
The third, and possibly my favorite, .380 is a Colt Mustang Pocketlite Plus 2. As you must know, Colt has been in the .380 pistol business since the introduction of the cartridge with its “Automatic Colt Caliber .380 Hammerless” of 1908. However, in 1983, Colt introduced the Colt Mark IV Series 80 Government Model – .380 Auto. This pocket pistol was similar in appearance, but not design, to the Colt M1911.
The Government Model .380’s obvious difference is that of being scaled down to 78 percent of a full-sized M1911 Government Model. In 1988, the Mustang Plus II was introduced with a longer grip frame. The Mustang Plus II derived its name from holding two more rounds than the original Mustang.
The semi-automatic, single-action, recoil-operated Pocketlite has an aluminum frame. It copies the lines of a miniature Combat Commander, including the rowel hammer. The pistol is small, a mere 11⁄16-inch wide, 4 inches tall, and 5 ½ inches long. It weighs 13.7 ounces (unloaded).
The finish of the frame is brushed matte. Its grip angle and controls follow those of the M1911, with some differences internally. The tang is an integral beavertail that keeps the hammer and recoiling slide well away from the shooter’s hands, even with a proper high grip. Stocks are black checkered plastic, with a silver-tone Rampant Colt escutcheon on each side.
It is of a locked-breech design (many .380s are blowbacks) and has two lugs on the 2 3/4-inch barrel that engage corresponding recesses on the underside of the slide. Under the barrel, a kidney-shaped cut guides barrel travel around the slide stop. Lockwork is of the Series 80 style. There is a passive firing pin safety system to prevent an accidental discharge, should the gun be dropped on its muzzle.
An internal extractor is fitted inside the ejection port on the breech face’s right. The aluminum trigger is anodized black and grooved on its front face. The average trigger pull weight is about 6 pounds, 11 ounces. Mounted on the frame’s left, behind and below the trigger, is the magazine release in the familiar M1911 position.
The body of the detachable, box magazine is of steel, as is the follower, The baseplate protrudes slightly, providing a rest for the ring finger, as most will only be able to get two fingers on the frame below the trigger guard. The tensioned left-side-only manual safety blocks the sear when pressed upward into the “on” position. However, it still allows the slide to be manipulated when the hammer is cocked.
As I said earlier, it has become my go to when a .380 is part of my load out. Primarily, because it is very light, comfortable, and surprisingly manageable to shoot despite its small size and light weight. Because of its excellent grip frame design, its short single-action trigger, and good manners it makes an excellent choice for a new shooter —especially the ladies. Try one. I guarantee you will like it.
Stay safe, train often and practice, practice, practice!
Of the 3 the Walther PPKs has my vote, smooth, accurate and reliable, nice rounded edges for carry and 8 rounds, I’ve had the little Colt mustang and it was great as well, but had some reliability issues.
@Dave E., Christian D. Orr, I’m with you guys and “Fold”.
I enjoyed Ed’s article, I shared my feelings and opinion about the Pistols highlighted and shared my personal experiences with one I’ve owned.
To elaborate further or engage in pointless debate was never my desire nor the Intention of the Author.
Glad to have such level heads in the “Right Camp”. And keep in mind.
“There are None so Blind as they that Refuse to See.
Over and Out!
What was simply a well written article describing 3 favorite pistols has been hijacked by the caliber war mafia once again. Such diatribes will only persuade writers to not submit articles. At the risk f being attacked by some some of the caliber fanatics, I want to free a few observations.
According to one of the experts, 1) if I can’t carry and effectively use a major caliber pistol, preferably 40 S&W or more powerful, then I’m better off carrying nothing and meekly submitting to muggers, rapists, etc. 2) Similarly, anyone who tries to defend themselves with a minor caliber will end up severely injured or killed, no exceptions.
I would like to point out that not everyone has the upper body or hand strength to use a 9mm pistol or something larger. And not every robber or mugger will be satisfied with just taking your wallet, phone, keys, etc. Some will injure or kill their victims whether or not they resist. Telling us not to carry a smaller caliber pistol or revolver is similar to telling people they can’t have/carry more than 10 rounds of ammunition, hollow point bullets, a backup gun, a semiautomatic firearm or any of the other ludicrous restrictions that the anti self defense crowd will impose on everyone if given the chance.
Lastly, arthritis and other physical limitations force me to carry a small, minor caliber firearm. I recognize the additional risk. However, I WILL CARRY AND USE a 22, 32 or 380 rather than meekly submitting to a violent attack, mugging, etc. Maybe I’ll be the first defender who survived in spite of their choice.
@Bo: Right-o then, cheers mate, have a Happy New Year 2024!
—CDO
I am done as well, nothing to add when someone else knows EVERYTHING. At least he wasn’t like the last “.45 or death” guy on another gun forum, I disparaged his 1911-fetish, and he deleted the entire thread….Just take the ball and go home because others don’t agree with their opinion.
@Mr. Orr; In spite of our obvious and passionate disagreement, I will still wish you well and an enjoyable holiday season. I do not hold ill will toward you or your comments. I meant no offense toward you, nor do I harbor the feelings you seem to project onto me.
There are few that inspire antipathy in me, those would be child molesters, domestic abusers, drug dealers, and terrorists. You are none of those. So will say again, I wish you well, during the holiday season and beyond .It is possible that you and I could have much to agree on, apart from this specific topic. We will bury it at this time. Our life experiences are divergent enough that we view this with entirely different perspectives. Because of the path that I have walked, there are some things I am passionate about.
I have not tried to insult anyone in my comments. If anyone has perceived that I was conveying insults, it was never my intent.
@ KANIKSUKIDD: Fair enough, good sir, touché. I’ve said my piece on this issue and have nothing more to add on this beaten dead horse. Cheerio, everyone.
@Christian D. Orr: I am not angry, and I have a rather happy life, it is joyful (Joy is one of my wife’s names). I am more interested in saving lives than watching people die believing they are protected when they are not. If you saw teenagers frequently speeding down a residential street and you knew their parents, would you not talk to those parents rather than let the teens run over kids who may run out in those streets chasing a ball? I have seen that too many times.
Anyway, I did look at the studies. One study you presented used data collected over 10 years. My data was collected personally over 30 plus years. What those studies did not address is whether the incapacitation occurred before or after that victim killed or injured their shooter. Or did I miss that? I have seen too many cases where the shootee was incapacitated, but only after they killed their shooter. So, if the shooter dies from being beat to death before the shootee is incapacitated (seen that a number of times), it is a fail (and I have seen no studies address that.) And if the shootee took the gun away from the shooter and killed him with his own gun, would that not skew the data. I have seen that happen a number of times. That is not covered in the studies.
Most of the patients we saw in the ER, were incapacitated, that is why we saw them, but more than a few had still killed or severely injured their shooter before that incapacity was reached. Incapacity is a non sequitur in this discussion if incapacity occurs after evil deeds are done. That is what I have seen, over a span of 30 plus years. That is why the cops I knew despised those calibers.
I have stated that frequently the cops reported to us that the now dead shooter most likely would not have been shot, beaten, or otherwise injured and would have survived had they not drawn a weapon and shot their robber. Sometimes having a weapon and bringing it to bear is not the best choice. It is their right to do so, but they need to know that the act of drawing it may lead to their demise and accepting the loss of personal property is preferable to going to the morgue.
It is harder than hell to engage another person unless one is a seasoned veteran of such incidents and the vast majority, (read 99% +) of people engage in spray and pray during that first encounter, including well trained individuals, like soldiers and even cops who are experts with their pistols. Talking shot placement for the first-time encounter is a non sequitur. I have not known anyone who has been there to disagree with that. For those who say not so, there was a Murphy’s Law Of Combat, I believe it was #1. Remember, you are not Superman, meaning we are all subject to the limitations placed on us by our own physiology. When Fight or Flight kicks in, we have no control over it.
Mr. Orr and Bo: you guys need to lower your hackles. I usually enjoy reading articles by Mr. Campbell and the resulting comments. Stop the fighting, NOW! This board is for information and discussion, NOT vitriol and insults. You two are behaving like libtards. We have enough problems without level-headed gun owners behaving this way over such inconsequential matters. Merry Christmas .
Mr. Orr and Bo: you guys need to lower your hackles. I usually enjoy reading articles by Mr. Campbell and the resulting comments. Stop the fighting, NOW! This board is for information and discussion, NOT vitriol and insults. You two are behaving like libtards. We have enough problems without level-headed gun owners behaving this way over such inconsequential matters. Merry Christmas .
@Bo:
Wow, you truly are a closed-minded arrogant blowhard. You asked for data, I gave it to you, I gave you citations FROM ONE OF THE VERY SAME SOURCES THAT YOU YOURSELF QUOTED (you g*ddamn hypocrite) and you continue to go on your mouth-frothing rants. You not only have serious anger management issues, you’re also reading comprehension-challenged.
I don’t recommend the .380 ACP (or .38 LC, .38 S&W, etc.) as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice…BUT I WOULD STILL RATHER HAVE IT THAN NO GUN AT ALL!!! Capisce?
Go take a flying fornication at a rolling donut, you insufferable jerk. You clearly a truly miserable person who lives a joyless existence, and what’s worse is that you feel compelled to foist your misery on everybody else and drag them down to your level of muck. And for good measure, at your age of 73, that means you’re also sucking up my Social(ist) (in)Security tax dollars like the oxygen thief that you are.
Seriously, just bugger off. I utterly despise people like you.
Have an Airborne g*ddamn day, jackass!
@Bo:
Wow, you truly are a closed-minded arrogant blowhard. You asked for data, I gave it to you, I gave you citations FROM ONE OF THE VERY SAME SOURCES THAT YOU YOURSELF QUOTED (you g*ddamn hypocrite) and you continue to go on your mouth-frothing rants. You not only have serious anger management issues, you’re also reading comprehension-challenged.
I don’t recommend the .380 ACP (or .38 LC, .38 S&W, etc.) as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice…BUT I WOULD STILL RATHER HAVE IT THAN NO GUN AT ALL!!! Capisce?
Go take a flying fornication at a rolling donut, you insufferable jerk. You clearly a truly miserable person who lives a joyless existence, and what’s worse is that you feel compelled to foist your misery on everybody else and drag them down to your level of muck. And for good measure, at your age of 73, that means you’re also sucking up my Social(ist) (in)Security tax dollars like the oxygen thief that you are.
Seriously, just bugger off. I utterly despise people like you.
Have an Airborne g*ddamn day, jackass!
@Bo:
Wow, you truly are a closed-minded arrogant blowhard. You asked for data, I gave it to you, I gave you citations FROM ONE OF THE VERY SAME SOURCES THAT YOU YOURSELF QUOTED (you g*ddamn hypocrite) and you continue to go on your mouth-frothing rants. You not only have serious anger management issues, you’re also reading comprehension-challenged.
Go take a flying fornication at a rolling donut, you insufferable jerk. You live a truly miserable, joyless existence and what’s worse is that you feel compelled to foist your misery on everybody else. Seriously, just bugger off. I utterly despise people like you.
Have an Airborne g*ddamn day, jackass!
@Christian D. Orr, et al; I have asked many people for examples of when the .380 or the .32 did the job as was expected. No one, not even you, Mr. Orr, has provided that. Cognitive dissonance is present when people say it should perform with NO examples to cite of it having done so. They want to believe based on faith. I have not said the gun fails every time as you infer. I have acknowledged that it can kill. I have seen it kill people, very few, but almost never before the shootee was able to kill or severely injure the shooter. That is not a successful encounter and I have never seen it succeed in the last 45 or so years. I do not claim to know everything, I just don’t want someone to draw their weapon only to find out, it won’t work.
I don’t really give a d@&* about numbers on paper when it comes to ballistics in a carry gun. I quoted those to make a point. I don’t give a d@&* about what people say a weapon is capable of IF they have never seen it perform exactly as they say it SHOULD. I have asked for cases where people have seen it work and no one can provide an example. Don’t give me numbers or “this should”, “it probably…” Give me examples where it worked. You have not done so. You want to give me studies of what the “EXPERTS” say it woulda, coulda, shoulda.
I have learned that sometimes the Experts are wrong., The experts told us in 2019-2020 that Covid would wipe out ten percent of the US population. The experts told us the vaccine would protect everyone from getting Covid… Well, the second vaccine will protect you… No, really the third one will protect you. As it turned out, one percent of the people who were confirmed to have contracted Covid died, and it was not even a majority of the population who could be confirmed to have contracted Covid. There many who were asymptomatic and had it. The experts who told us what would or could happen got it WRONG. I don’t want statistics or numbers on a page, I want examples, and no one has given that.
The local cops in two different metros where I have worked were the ones who first told me of the failures of the .380, .32, et al. As I stated when I got home, I thought they would work. I was quickly disabused of that notion by cops who had seen it fail. They were the ones who called these weapons The Last Bad Choice of Dead People Everywhere. They were the ones who inspired me to spread the message that they don’t work. If there was cognitive dissonance, I would be on the side for these weapons.
Another thing, I have been trying to say, and has been missed by many is I have been an observer to many situations where people drew a weapon, shot someone and that shooter was killed by the shootee. I hope you would acknowledge that is a fail. Over my time in ER, I have talked to more officers than I can count who stated that had the shooter handed over his valuables and let the perp walk away, the shooter would still be alive. Instead, the shooter drew his weapon, shot the perp who turned on the shooter and killed him. They died for stuff that could have been replaced. There are times that bringing a weapon into a situation is the wrong choice. I have seen people who were carrying seemed to feel a level of, I don’t know, invincibility, a sense of power, emboldenment. I don’t know what to call it. They felt emboldened because they had a weapon, and because of that they took measures that were beyond the capabilities of their weapon and themselves.
There are so many people who think that being in a firefight is like on TV. Spoiler alert: It is nothing like anything anyone can imagine before they go through it and then many vets spend the rest of their lives trying to forget it. One cannot engage another human being with a weapon the first time and perform like a seasoned soldier. One must engage multiple times to become seasoned. I know of no one who did not resort to spray and pray on their first encounter, and that was on both sides. There are many vets alive today because of that. Even cops on the pistol team found it to be harder than they thought it would be. And once that box is opened, one’s world will never be the same, and frequently NOT in a good way.
I have heard almost a lust for a drawing a weapon on someone from people who frankly scared me because of that. Recently in Norman, Oklahoma, there were two men who became embroiled in a road rage incident. One of these men, was a firearms instructor, had multiple certifications as a peace officer, et al. He pulled over to engage the other man and ended up killing him. He got out of his vehicle, bearing a weapon with the intent to confront the other driver and killed him. He is in custody awaiting trial for first degree murder because he entered this “discussion” appearing to anticipate that this would turn ugly. The D.A.’s premise is he could have ignored it and avoided the situation. Unfortunately, I have seen a number of situations similar to this; someone is carrying, a situation arises that the carrier views as a reason to engage and ends up destroying multiple lives, his own, IF he survives, his family’s lives, and the lives of the other party’s and their family.
If you saw a friend’s daughter who was driving a car with tires that you consider to be unsafe, would you say something that might save her life? If you did not, and one of those tires blew at highway speed killing her and others, would you feel that you could have saved their lives by saying something. That is all I am doing here. Now add to that, a weapon that is less than optimal. I could pretend I believe it will work out if people use these weapons, but in my heart, I would know that if I do not warn them, their blood is on my head. See the Watchman scenario in Ezekiel 33. This is not about ego. It is about saving lives.
I will end with this with one question. Knowing the inadequacies of the .38 LC, would you carry that weapon on you for self-defense? It was responsible for the deaths of too many American soldiers because it failed to stop the threat. The weapons that I am decrying do not have numbers as good as the .38 LC. Would you ever recommend for your loved one to carry that weapon into a possible engagement with a bad guy? If not, then why would you do that for anyone?
@Bo: Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima. No, I admittedly have never been in a gunfight; in my 7 years in USAF Security Forces, 5 years in Federal civilian law enforcement (CBP Officer and ICE Special Agent), and 5 years as a damn dirty mercenary, er, privateer, er, private military contractor (PMC) in Iraq, none of the bad guys I encountered ever had the common courtesy to shoot at me and thus give me the opportunity to “field-test” (so to speak) ballistic capabilities.
And no, mea culpa again, I haven’t seen gunshot wounds up-close-and-personal, and the only dead bodies I’ve seen have been the embalmed corpses of deceased friends at their funerals.
So, I’ve had to settle instead for viewing still photographs and videos of gunfights and autopsies instead, as well as 33 years’ worth of secondhand research reading the works of world renowned experts on gunfights and wound ballistics, from Massad Ayoob (funny you should mention him) to Dave Arnold (R.I.P.) to Chuck Taylor (R.I.P. again) to Ken Hackathorn to John Farnam.
And while on the one hand, NONE of those guys consider the .380 ACP to be an ideal self-defense round (and by the way, neither do I), the flip side of that is that NONE of them consider the round to be completely worthless either, unlike you, Mr. Know-It-All. They label it “marginal,” “minimal,” and so forth, but that is still a more complimentary assessment than you are willing to concede.
Okay, you want data? Here’s some damn data, so read it/watch it/listen to it if you’re actually open-minded enough to do so and not hopelessly overcome with cognitive dissonance:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/questioning-the-effectiveness-of-the-380-auto-cartridge
https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc?si=Bx1WPV5_mI8iTizF
Since you’ve quoted Mas Ayoob, I shall do the same, courtesy of his book “The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense”: “Fortunately, the .380 is accepted to be a last-ditch weapon used by undercover people who need to appear unarmed, by off-duty officers in the lowest possible threat scenarios, and by officers who are acutely conscious of size and bulk in a backup weapon and, absent the small, flat .380 auto, might carry no backup at all.”
Okay, Bo, I get it, you’ve got a crap-ton of gunfight experience and firsthand observations of gunshot wounds. God bless ya for that, good sir, I respect that, truly I do.
What I do NOT respect, however, is your condescending, blowhard know-it-all attitude. For you to claim that the .380 (1) literally fails every time (wow, a 100% failure rate since 1902, really??) and (2) is truly worse than no gun at all is simply is in defiance of all logic and common sense. For the longest time, it was been acknowledged by the experts that even a .22 LR or .25 ACP is better than no gun all, and a .380 is certainly more powerful than a .22 or .25! Let me quote Captain Ayoob yet again:
“The trend-setting editor (now editor-emeritus) of the nation’s first and most famous police professional journal, Law and Order, is Frank MacAloon. Few people know that Frank was paralyzed from the neck down due to a swimming accident in his teens. He had just enough use of his hands to shave and handle a cup of coffee. He didn’t have the strength to pull a revolver’s trigger double action, or to work the slide on an auto pistol. When he asked me for references on a suitable defense weapon during the time I wrote for him, I suggested the tip-up Beretta model 950 series automatic. This was an auto pistol of .25 or .22 Short caliber with a single-action trigger; he could easily flip off the safety and fire, even with debilitated hands. Also, the slide didn’t have to be actuated to chamber a round. Instead, the light touch of the thumb on the tip-up button would flip the rear of the barrel upward to a cartridge to be inserted by hand. ***When Beretta updated that design to their .380 automatic, I recommended he upgrade to it***. [emphasis added]…I recommend this Beretta design most strongly for senior citizens, cops off on work-related disability, and other ‘Good Guys’ who have need to be armed and do not have the strength to operate a conventional revolver or autoloader.”
But since you, Bo, obviously know sooooooo much better than anybody else, I suppose you would gainsay Capt. Ayoob and advise those some demographics of “Good Guys” to go completely unarmed instead of carrying a mouse gun.
With all due respect, good sir, get over yourself and get off your high horse. Merry bleeping Christmas, Happy bleeping Boxing Day, and have a Happy effing New Year.
@ Bob Campbell, Dave E. & Christian D. Orr. Thank you for your civil comments and astute observations. I believe in taking this article for what it is. A simple, straight forward review of three exceptional Handguns.
I read no recommendations on the caliber they’re chambered in as being anyone’s Best Choice for Self Defense. Neither did it encourage anyone purchase them.
As an Open Forum for opinion and experience this, like similar forums tends to attract the odd Gadflies like the “45 ACP and nothing else” or “Right at any cost” crowd, and will share past history and experiences in Encyclopedic form to prove their point. Even resorting names, labels and challenges. Not to worry, what a total stranger thinks or sez about you is of no consequence in the least.
Buy, Shoot and Enjoy what you like!
P.S. Hey @Bo, you still want data? Okay, here’s some effing data:
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc?si=hZZppa8LxxRq-1Y6
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/questioning-the-effectiveness-of-the-380-auto-cartridge?fbclid=IwAR2aQ770kwnaj0alB56GJH3AT40Rj8DuVAHw2Bv4CM_HRf_iDdtkWjD4oZg_aem_AUbw7B-cFHtA8zZyVyyC8-KNJHpxALdVhZPjZcP87nk9LmIB3VC0_B_aEpIDmWmfR0s
Have an Airborne g*ddamn day.
Well, Bo has schooled us all. Long rambling diatribes, can’t even wade through them all, I guess your opinion is the only one that counts…good day, sir.
@Christian D. Orr: I notice you did not answer my questions when I asked, “…how many victims of GSWs have you seen in real life? Have you ever been on the receiving end of incoming fire?” Let’s put things in perspective, eh? Is that by design?
When I returned from overseas back in the 70’s, and even into the early 80’s, there were many, me included, who thought those calibers, .32 and .380 should be effective. As far as the .32 and .380, I changed my mind, when I started seeing so many fails with my own eyes. I saw too many cases where those who used .380 on down died as a result. Count that as data collection. Chuck Taylor had an opinion, and many agreed with him on that statement. It was not based on data. From what I have seen after decades in the ER, anything less than a 9 is far more likely to fail than succeed.
The first gun I bought on my return to the States was a Smith Model 59, 9 mm because I thought it would be effective. I sold it when I began to see fails with 9 mm. Now, I wish I had kept it, because it was fun to shoot, fun to play with. Even then, the few fails with the 9 do not come close to the number of fails I saw with those lesser calibers.
The FDA recently announced that, after 40 plus years of use, data shows that.OTC decongestants do NOT work. They thought they worked way back when, but data did not back it up. Literature and opinion on any subject lose their luster when data shows what was thought no longer works anymore. Sometimes, after an indeterminate period of time, we find that what was once given as gospel, turns out not to be so.
Massad Ayoob said, “The .380 simply doesn’t have enough power in most loads to drive it to the depth of 12 inches that the FBI considers to be the necessary minimum.” He went on to say there is a possibility that a round by Lehigh will be adequate, but to my knowledge there are no confirmed uses on human subjects where it has been used. Until then, it is conjecture, similar to your statements. You have offered no data as yet on cases IRL, which tells me that if you had data, you would have led with that. You did not, so anything you add now is suspect. I have always told what I have seen at the outset of these discussions. No one has provided a rebuttal, just derision, sarcasm, and insults, a sure sign they have no data, and they are trying to save face by trying to insult me.
I have seen dozens of fails with both the .32 and .380. So, tell me about successes you have seen IRL, not someone else’s opinion about what might work or what Uncle Bob’s second cousin’s, brother-in-law’s uncle saw fifty years ago, or an article from 25 to 30 years ago. So, tell me, give me perspective, how many victims of GSWs have you seen IRL? Have you ever been on the receiving end of incoming fire? How many success stories with the .380 have you seen IRL?
As far as being on the receiving end of incoming, BT, DT long ago and far away; and speaking of the .380 and .32, all I have seen is fail, dozens of times, with each. Cannot think of a time where either one delivered in time to save the shooter. I cannot imagine drawing a weapon, firing on someone, and realizing that it is not doing the job and I, or my family, will die as a result. I have already seen too many dead people IRL.
I dont think Ed’s posit was to provoke a debate about the cartridge but to point out how nice these guns are. They are very good guns. The Browning is especially reliable.
Bob
@Dave E: How many times have you seen a .380 round used with effective results IRL? For me, that is a very low number, like none that come to mind when I look at effectiveness in a handgun. What I have seen with the .380 is a complete failure to perform. It is not a manstopper as you proclaim. It was very effective in pissing off the shootee, usually enough that many of those shootees further attacked the shooter, leaving many dead or severely injured to the point of permanent disability. There were occasions when the shootee took the gun away from the shooter and used what rounds were left in the magazine for shooting the former shooter. From what I have seen, the .380 is only really effective when placed against the head of someone and shooting them. We did not see those people, but the cops told us about them.
From what I have seen in treating hundreds of GSW patients, there is little stopping power in any caliber below the 9 mm, and I am not really a fan of that caliber, but that is just me. I have seen too many cases where people shot someone with a .380 and were killed or severely injured by the shootee after being shot. I took care of a number of shootees, and the cops would tell us about the shooter who was usually DRT at the scene of the crime. Most of the patients we saw were saved and went to prison. Most of the life ending was on the part of the shooter, and it was life altering for the shooter (even if they survived, some with TBI or other life altering traumatic injury) and the shooter’s family who are now dealing with the aftermath. It was also life altering for the shootee, only because they are spending the rest of their lives in prison. That sounds like a 110 % fail to me.
I did a quick search for the round you tout. The majority of ammo of that weight does not reach the velocity you give. I could not find any with those specifics, however, Remington makes several of that weight but none of them breaks 1K fps leaving us with muzzle energy hovering around 200 ft/lbs. That is on a par with the .38 LC which failed to get the attention of most of the Moros who were shot with that round which was shown to be one of the biggest failures of ammunition used by the US military.
As I have stated before in other threads, in many of those cases, according to the cops, if they shooter had acquiesced to the assailant’s demands, they probably would have lived. It was only when they brought a weapon to bear did the situation become life threatening and it was the shooter’s life that was threatened. There are times when a weapon is NOT the answer.
@Dave e.: BIN-GO!! As no less an old-school dyed-in-the-wool .45 ACP aficionado than the late great Chuck Taylor (R.I.P. and God bless) said in “The Complete Book of Handgunning,” “This is NOT to say that the bigger calibers always work or that the smaller calibers always fail…I would rather have a woman carry a .32 auto in her purse than leave her .45 auto at home! Case/Point.”
And mind you, ol’ Chuck, as a Special Forces officer in Vietnam, had plenty of gunfight experience, and what’s more he was quite knowledgeable about wound ballistics and stopping powers, particularly the Thompson-LaGarde (sp?) tests and Hatcher’s Relative Stopping Power (RSP) formula.
Perspective, eh?
I see the “.45 because they don’t make .46” crowd is out in force. Believe me a. 380 88gr JHP moving @1100fps is going to get any perps attention immediately with life altering or life ending consequences. I don’t really care how effective you think your .45 is, the small .380 pistol you actually CARRY is a 110% better man stopper than the big caliber heavy pistol you left at home because it’s a pain in the ass to carry.
Architect
I dont often comment on the absurd but I hope good people are well armed. Your posit of arming yourself with something over 450 fps and .22, 25, 32, is just that absurd. It is a recipe for disaster even if hunting something as small as bobcat or coyote. The form and structure of animals and humans is the same. Your thoughts and flights of well whatever they are are in contrast to every valid study from Colonel Thompson, WB Smith, Hatchette, Taylor, and so many other not to mention modern shooters. A man is about the size of a deer and about as hard to put down, save deer dont know they have been shot, men are more subject to shock. The 9mm is a good medium for most shooters. I cannot imagine a grown man or woman of average strength and bone structure finding a 9mm in a Glock 19 or FN 509C too offensive to master. Small caliber head shots are problematical. Skull structure is tough and tends to cause standard velocity pistol bullets to skid. All readers conduct your own testing on the firing range, read valid test results, resist unverifiable drivel, and get training.
@The Architect: You talk as if you have personal experience in getting shot. I have been shot at but was never hit. (And, not for lack of trying on the part of those shooters. Almost everyone resorts to spray and pray in their first firefight, even the other side, just saying.) Anyway, when I was overseas some 50 years ago, I knew a lot of guys who got shot. None of them reacted as you describe. I knew guys who, for them, being shot was the real start of the fight. They became an extreme threat to those who were not playing nice. More than a few of our guys were not even aware they had been shot until the little dustup was over and someone said something like, “You’re bleeding.” Fight or Flight does that.
What you think you know about being shot is based on very limited experience. You should forget what you think you know about it and stick to only what you yourself have gone through, or personally observed. What you describe does not match anything I observed during my time as an Army Medic overseas back in the early 70’s. If you have been shot, well, there is an expression, YMMV. What you describe does not match the experience of most veterans I know, and I know a bunch.
You say, “I’ve never seen an aggressor get shot and continue attacking the person.” I have and I question that you have seen it happen. Again, you clearly have limited experience in the matter so you should look up a dozen or so of the Medal of Honor Citations awarded for actions in the Southeast Asia War Games in a place called Vietnam (They lasted from the 60’s into the 70’s.) Almost all these men sustained multiple injuries to include GSWs, but continued to fight valiantly until the battle was over or they succumbed to their injuries. Some of them organized counter attacks AFTER being shot and they were shot with more reliable rounds than .380.
You state, “Some folks say a drug induced maniac can withstand the .380 load but it’s rarely the case.” I have seen patients (too many to count after all these years) shot with just .380 who killed or injured their shooter after being shot. (We had a doc who kept a list of the calibers that did not do the job and the .380 was on the list.) We saved most of these guys so they could go to prison. The local cops stated that they considered .380 and others to be more dangerous to the shooter than to the shootee as many of the people who were shot with the .380 were pissed off enough to kill the shooter. As I said, we saved the vast majority of those who were shot with the .380, but we seldom saw the shooter as they usually went to the M.E.’s office, AKA morgue.
In my mind, and in the minds of dozens of cops in multiple jurisdictions, .380 is NOT a viable option for SD. Those several dozen officers all felt that people who carried a .380 (and any of the less powerful calibers) were in more danger of dying than anyone they shot. It was from those cops that the expression The Last Bad Choice of Dead People Everywhere arose. Those bad choices included .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP and the .380. Any of those guns CAN kill people, but in the experience of those cops and myself, they seldom did, and even if the shootee died, it was frequently after the shooter was dead.
If you look at the numbers for the .380, they do not rise to the level of the .38 LC as far as muzzle energy. They cannot really expand enough to cause the kind of tissue damage that is needed. That means they just punch a hole and if no vital organs or vessels are hit, they can continue on with their villainy. I have seen more than a few patients who had chest hits, some even dropped a lung but still managed to kill their shooter before they collapsed. We saved their @$$.
I have seen quite a few people who were shot with all these calibers who did not suffer permanent harm. Some of them went to surgery, some were just patched up, wounds dressed and were released to the local constabulary. I realize that my experience is limited as I worked busy metro ERs for only more than thirty years, and only saw several hundred GSWs, maybe more. Now, there may have been some who died from .380, but just very few anywhere close to where I have been or where any of the cops I knew were. Oh, I have never seen anyone lose a lung from a single gunshot, from cancer, yes, gunshot, uh, no, regardless of caliber. And I helped put in a bunch of chest tubes in people who were shot in the chest. None of them lost a lung. That’s over a span of 30+ years.
The increasing value of my Colt Mustang made me change and flip over to a Diamond Back 380. Which I actually had better groupings with on target shooting! Then decided to change to a DB9 to help with cost and availability of Ammo! All are Extremely Comfortable to carry and Easily Concealed!
The increasing value of my Colt Mustang made me change and flip over to a Diamond Back 380. Which I actually had better groupings with on target shooting! Then decided to change to a DB9 to help with cost and availability of Ammo! All are Extremely Comfortable to carry and Easily Concealed!
It depends what you prefer, can handle well and afford. In addition, I believe folks should put in enough time and effort to practice with whatever they carry. I am of the opinion that one does not need a gun until they need one very badly. I have had a CCW permit since 1967 and have carried various guns at one time or another to include either a S&W Model 60, a Model 1911, a Beretta Model 84 or 85 or a Browning Hi-Power. I never felt under-gunned or over-gunned. When needed they did the job because I had confidence in the gun an my abilities. All the best…
Gil
@Budgie: I have been gone for several days on the Oklahoma Holiday Doe hunt and sow as out of pocket. I must say that your comment is more typical coming from Liberals who realize they have no intellectual standing in a discussion but feel they MUST save face and so resort to insults or sarcasm that has no bearing on the discussion.
I am 73, and I have been shot at and have come close to dying in the next few minutes more times than I can count, and only some of those times were in the Army. My wife will tell you I have no time for getting my feelings hurt by insults and sometimes she doesn’t believe I have feelings. I have been insulted by better men than you. My response then usually was a more socially acceptable version of Foxtrot Yankee, the intent was there even if the words were not.
Some things I saw in the ER were patients who came in with unrealistic expectations and would verbally attack the ER staff, nurses and doctors with this kind of petulant behavior when the doctor or nurses tried to explain why the Reader’s Digest article on a particular problem was not considered to be a legitimate resource upon which to build a treatment plan. I also saw it in mostly female teenagers who responded in this manner when they were informed that decisions they had made were ill-advised. They were incensed that anyone who had more life experience would try to inflict some reality onto their life and try to help them avoid more pain and suffering. The nerve of those girls’ parents and the ER staff to interject a little of our life experience to help them stay alive. That is all I have been doing, trying to interject reality into this discussion and save some lives.
I have some questions for you. If you choose not to answer, I will understand. (1) How many people with real GSWs have you seen IRL? (2) If any, what calibers or gauges were the cause of those injuries? (3) What was the outcome of those cases?
My answer to each of those questions is: (1) Well into the triple digits, if not more. (2) In handguns, everything from rimfire to .45 typically found in the US, with the exception of .40 and 10 mm. I have also seen some NOT commonly seen in the US, although that was a very long time ago and very far away. In rifles, rimfire to large bore rifles. In shotguns, teeny tiny birdshot up to rifled slugs. (3) The outcomes were all the way from treat ‘em and street ‘em (they went home or to jail) to the ICU, to the morgue.
Do you have any relevant experience that could lend to a real discussion other than sarcasm or insults? What have you experienced to lend credence to your belief that your chosen round will be effective in a time of crisis? How many times have you seen it work IRL? I have just told what I have seen and realize there are people who the truth to be disconcerting and causes rage at having bubbles burst and inducing those people to figuratively kill the messenger.
BTW, I found your sarcasm to petulant and juvenile. Next time, leave it to the experts. Bill Maher does a much better job, and he can actually be funny.
The reason I have spoken up is most of the time I care about people and do not want anyone to die because of a poor choice in caliber selection. So, I tell people what I have seen so they will not die. For me, it is so their blood is not on my head, ala the watchman in Ezekial. I have spoken; your blood is not on my hands. I hope you never have the chance to draw your weapon on another human being. But if you do, and it turns out poorly, your family will be torn up with grief, but I will not care, or even say I told you so.
I inherited my late father-in-law’s Remington Model 51 .380 pistol. It is a dream to shoot. Beautifully balanced and like pointing your finger. The sights are miniature and relatively useless, but this is definitely a pocket gun. Short range use. Mine was a late production unit. Based on the S/N it was manufactured in 1927. The previous owners must have all taken good care of it because the bluing is pristine. I inherited it in 1970. He had gotten it from one of his brother-in-laws as a gift. That was before CA became paranoid about gun ownership and transfers. I’m planning to leave it to my son.
I inherited my late father-in-law’s Remington Model 51 .380 pistol. It is a dream to shoot. Beautifully balanced and like pointing your finger. The sights are miniature and relatively useless, but this is definitely a pocket gun. Short range use. Mine was a late production unit. Based on the S/N it was manufactured in 1927. The previous owners must have all taken good care of it because the bluing is pristine. I inherited it in 1970. He had gotten it from one of his brother-in-laws as a gift. That was before CA became paranoid about gun ownership and transfers. I’m planning to leave it to my son.
Big advocate for the .380 cartridge for many firearms users. Of course the 9mm is most used it simply discourages some from guns because of the recoil and violent sound they can chime out.
The .380 or AKA 9 mm shorty is enough to drop any would be attacker. I know this from experience. It will fell even the biggest of men.
It does require head and chest shot practice drills to be most affective.
Some folks say a drug induced maniac can withstand the .380 load but it’s rarely the case. The point is to stop the threat. If the attacker is loaded up on pcp or crack etc. they leave little choice of where to shoot them at. They generally will keep coming until you plant one or two in the chest or head area.
For most however, getting perforated deeply by a screaming hot piece of metal, will certainly change their mindset completely.
Getting shot is a very unnatural feeling. It’s like being stabbed with a bright white hot poker. The brain tells the body it can’t handle the pain and so many will pass out from shock or blood loss. This renders them a non threat.
I’ve seen a seasoned thug drop like a bag of potatoes instantly after taking one in the chest. He survived but is missing a lung now.
I’ve seen a kid get two in the back and still manage to scurry off until of course he succumbed to his wounds.
I’ve never seen an aggressor get shot and continue attacking the person.
It happens but is rare. The brain does not like being rattled by gun shot wounds in the body. It’s default to flee or shut down entirely.
Mind you I’ve seen cases where a man took three rounds of .38 special in the back and he killed the man whom shot him and survived his ordeal.
I’ve seen cases of men getting shot in the chest and stomach by a 9mm and confidently still protected his family by ending multiple perps lives before succumbing to his own wounds sadly.
Is the 380 cartridge viable in an SD situation? You bet your ass it is.
Any projectile flying over 450fps is a viable option. 22,25,32,380 etc. they all will permanently mess up someone’s life.
The best .380’s. Walther ppk is as good as they get. Accuracy can be had up to 75 yards. I’ve done it and seen many do it too. It’s recoil is nada. The weight mitigates most and the reliability is 100%.
Colts mustang (I own the xsp) is stellar and again reliable and accurate.
For bigger iterations the Ruger 380 is fantastic. It’s heavy and tames all recoil to minimal levels. It’s accurate and it’s fun to shoot.
The various clones are ok too.
But, Berettas Cheetah is top notch but some may find the grip to be a little rough on the edges.
Noted slide bite until I changed the way I drew and hold it.
Today .380 is better and cleaner with good stopping power. Also in subsonic guise, it’ll save your hearing in a CQB situation when ears and eyes aren’t available in a pinch.
Throw a suppressor on your rig and your not disturbing the kids asleep or the neighbors when some would be asshat decides to break in.
It’s a way to handle business without alerting the entire block.
I have carried a PPK/S for over 40 years, and on one occasion, needed it for self defense. The individual was stout in stature. . .and initially, appeared quite determined in liberating me from my wallet. Fortunately, I not only had the time and space in which to react, but I had also spent considerable time on the range. And while i didn’t kill him, I decidedly changed his mind about wanting my wallet. He spent 3 plus weeks in the hospital before becoming a resident of the states institutions.
Is the PPK/S the best .380 CC weapon? I’m not qualified to answer that question. But I can tell you that it is a very reliable, dependable, and easily concealable gun. And isn’t that what we want in a CC weapon?
When people have asked for my recommendation for a personal defense weapon, I’ve told them all the same thing. Find one that comfortable in your hand, and then spend time practicing with that gun.
With good personal defense ammo, and time spent practicing, the PPK/S in my opinion is a good CC weapon.
My original concealed carry choice–many, many years ago–was my prized PPKs. James Bond and all…. It served me well for a few years without–I’m thankful–any need to prove itself.
I still have it: it is now a “safe queen”. Currently, I carry other firearms that are both more reliable and seasonally flexible.
Meanwhile, I still love to shoot my first choice.
To all – No handgun is a “One Shot” manstopper! Someone on drugs can be shot numerous times, and never show any signs of being shot once. Once worked with a coworker that was hit (7) times by a 7.62×25 wielding VC. and for decades afterwards complained every time the weather changed. Best guess is that almost everyone shot with a handgun round will survive, regardless of caliber, with quick and proper medical care. As for me – I have shot everything from a 25ACP to a 50AE and am now at an age where shooting any large caliber handgun creates problems. I would rather carry a 380 that I can hit my target consistently with, than a 357 or 45, and consistently miss. Even a 38 S&W (not the 38 Special) made someone with a baseball bat think twice before taking a swing at me.
@Larry, Grumpy 49 & Christian D. Orr. We must concede that we are in the presence of Greatness and have all been taken to task for our Misstatements and Ballistic Transgressions.
The time has come to light Incense and bring Burnt Offerings to the Altar.
Humble and Contrite we ask Forgiveness. Amen.😞
Interesting guns. I have never carried a .380 ACP pistol as a primary. I have a Springfield 911 380 that is very accurate and reliable. I need a .380 for the occasional ammo test. I sometimes carried it to back up my Springfield 1911 .45, but went back to a snub .38 for backup. I have carried a Colt 1903 in .32 Jeff copper forgive me! Under the shirt in torrid weather, better than nothing. It shoots very well indeed. A friend, a judge, was ambushed in a phone booth. The guy raised a .380 ACP and fired. The judge’s hand was in front of his face Thank G– . The FMJ bullet entered the heel of R’s hand and stopped just under the knuckle of his small finger. A second shot skidded across the ribs. The guy ran. Not the gun for me. The PPK Browning and Colt guns are very accurate and easy to use well compared to the modern ultra light guns.
@Larry. You state, “when someone has a hole put in them, you stand a better chance of getting out of there.” I knew a bunch of guys when I was in the Army who got holes punched in them by others who took exception to our presence. Their response was to do everything they could to bring those guys down. Very few of those other guys, if any, got away. We did not play nice with people who did not play nice with us. Remember the expression Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em. They got smoked.
If you read some of the things I have posted, in this thread and others, you will note that in my ER experience, I treated dozens of people who were shot, some with multiple holes in them, and they still killed their shooter. There was no chance for those shooters to get out of there.
You are right about it being an unfortunate experience to shoot at someone. What is more unfortunate is to shoot at someone, piss them off, and they kill you, either with your own gun, or they beat you to death. I have seen too many of those two scenarios. Even a .22 can kill you quickly IF it is placed against your head, after the perp takes it away from you. Otherwise, I have seen a number of people shot with .22 up to .38 Sp, some in the head, who survived with no discernible deficits. I did see one person shot in the head with a 9 mm but he had some deficits; as a side, he killed himself in jail shortly before he was to go to trial for murder.
Shot placement is important but if the weapon is underpowered, as in insufficient muzzle energy, and no major organs or vessels are punctured, there is seldom sufficient tissue damage or bleeding for the perp to succumb to the injury in a timely manner. And if they have drugs on board, they may just get pissed and escalate their attack on our shooter. I have seen a number of center of mass hits with those underpowered calibers who were saved in the ER, so they could go to trial for murder.
This is what I referred to when discussing the .38 LC. Some of those people had multiple mortal wounds, so shot placement was good, and they died, just not before they killed their shooter. In the ER, a good percentage of the few people I have seen who did actually die from these wounds still managed to kill or at least severely damage the shooter, some to the point of maiming them, leaving some in a chronic vegetative state status/post severe TBI.
“Budgie”
No worries because “The Pony Express” was located “temporarily” on the south end of the Runway, but only for a short time until they moved to the Schoenborn St Location.
As for getting together after the Holidays, how do you feel about Wood Ranch BBQ & Grill?
Reach out to me in the Comments Section of my most current Article and we can work out the details.
Merry Christmas And To All A Good Night!
That is why I carry a compact 1911 45acp JHP
@Grumpy; My reason for eschewing the lower caliber handguns for self-defense began in the ER when we were seeing people who brought their weapons to bear, shot an attacker, and were KILLED by that attacker. In dozens of cases, over more than three decades in the ER, the police who were investigating told us that the only reason the shooter died was they produced a weapon while they were being robbed, mugged, whatever you call it. The police further added that if the shooter had allowed themselves to be robbed, they probably would not have been killed. In the minds of the officers, the only reason the shooter died was they produced a weapon, shot the assailant, enraging him, and then died because of that decision to shoot. Can you say FAIL?
This is not a one-time scenario. This played out too many times to count over decades (and I have no reason to believe it is any different today.) That is why the cops were so disparaging of the calibers I have mentioned. I had innumerable officers tell me that the only reason the shooter died was they brought a gun into the mix. A hit with an insufficient caliber that leads to the death of the shooter is not better than a miss with a larger caliber if one’s shootee kills the shooter because he is now pissed. That is what I call a FAIL.
I see a lot of people who carry calibers that I know are more dangerous to them, the shooter, than to anyone from whom they must defend themselves. They have never been in a situation where they have drawn weapons, and they seem to think it will be like in the movies or on TV or that they got this. and they are cool. One of the many Murphy’s Law we had in the Army was, “No battle plan survives initial contact.” That is more true than anyone can imagine.
In my mind, talking about shot placement means nothing if people do not spend more time practicing with their weapon than they do on their phone. I have known officers who were on the pistol team and were nationally ranked in that arena who were engaged in a firefight with a suspect, and they all emptied their high-caps mags. More than 40 rounds were fired at a suspect, in a restaurant, at a distance somewhere around ten feet. Fewer than half the rounds hit the suspect and of those, only a third were mortal wounds. The only people I have known who practiced with their weapons more than these officers, were either on a SWAT team or Spec-Ops types in the Army. These officers told me that they could not believe how everything played out because it did not happen in a manner that any of them had trained for. They could not see the sights on their guns, etc. Most vets understand. No battle plan survives initial contact.
These are all things I have talked about. It is hard. When one engages a person for the first time, it is far more life changing than anything one can go through, more so than going into the military, getting married, having a child, or burying one’s child. I have done all of those. Burying a child was the worst thing I have ever experienced, but I do not believe it was any more life changing for me as some of the situations I participated in while overseas. Engaging a weapon on a person in real life is nothing like one can see on either the big screen or small one. People watch movies and do not realize that when they walk away from there, their life will not have changed to any great degree. Engaging a person changes people in ways they cannot imagine, and for some it is not a good change, especially if they are dead.
I don’t want to get into an argument about the. 380,but the one thing you left out in the diatribe about it being ineffective is shot placement. Many shootouts, (for lack of a better term)are relatively close and hitting center mass, will slow down anyone but the biggest of assailant. The head also comes to mind. I have been in the unfortunate position of having to use a firearm in self defense and
when I shot back at the person who was shooting at me, I saw him go down, and got the hell out of there. Here in the people’s republic of NY, less is best. This happened many decades ago and that particular firearm is been dissolved in sea water, the point is that it worked, and I had adrenaline squirting out of my ears, I was young and stupid enough to be collecting rent in bad neighborhoods.
And this happened with a round nose lead round. So for whatever my two cents is worth, when someone has a hole put in them, you stand a better chance of getting out of there.
Ed.
Your invitation sounds like a delightful way to share some time together, and although I’ve actually migrated to Bakersfield I do still have Family there in the “Valley” and make the Pilgrimage whenever possible (Besides, “Oak Tree” is right there in the pass off the 5 and has a good Kitchen. Unless you prefer Bear Pit).
BTW. My Dyslexia was showing in my previous comment. Pony Express moved “North” of Roscoe and the Van Nuys Airport near Hayvenhurst.
Thanks Bo – Most people don’t realize nothing smaller than a 75mm High Explosive round is truly a “One Shot” man stopper. (YES – Such a round does “blow away” major body parts.) Any bullet going under ~2,300 fps doesn’t create enough hydraulic shock to cause it to be a man stopper just by the temporary wound channel created by the bullet’s passage through the body. Ask any hunter, and they will agree that a hogg or a deer can be shot with a high-power rifle, destroying the Heart/Lungs, and still run off some distance. I will say that a solid hit with a 380 beats a miss with a 45. I also agree that any handgun used for self-defense needs to be of a high standard of reliability. Question is still – What is the largest caliber handgun can you handle successfully?
@Christian D. Orr; You state: “Let’s keep things in perspective for the sake of intellectual honesty, shall we:” First, the article you reference is one that you wrote. Could there be any bias there?
Yes, Let’s… And I would ask you, as I have many others, how many victims of GSWs have you seen in real life? Have you ever been on the receiving end of incoming fire? I have BT, DT on both of those, more than a few times. As far as treating GSWs, for me, it would easily number into the hundreds, if not more. In the name of intellectual honesty, how many have you seen? If that number does not range into at least double digits, or you have never seen anyone shot with a .380, who is being intellectually dishonest here? I have seen many people shot with a .380. Using the premise of intellectual honesty, I have seen almost no one who was shot with a .380 who was stopped from their commission of whatever crime was being committed. Most of them survived to go to prison for killing their shooter after being shot. That is what I call a FAIL!.
The .380 was one caliber that a fair number of local cops added to the list of calibers that they called The Last Bad Choice of Dead People Everywhere (TLBCoDPE) because in their experience, individuals who used those calibers were more likely to die than the people they shot. That coincides to what I saw in 30 plus years working ER in busy metro hospitals.
You seem to think that drugs and external pain measures keeps people from dying when shot with guns. You are in error. All the drugs do is blunt the pain so the drug addled mind can continue on with their villainy. I have seen many such people here in the US who continued with their assault after being shot. Spoiler alert: There are a lot of bad guys out on the street who are on drugs while they commit crimes against law abiding citizens. Drugs do not keep people alive when they are shot. There are a lot of urban myths about people on drugs being shot and what happens to them; none of those myths are intellectually honest. Those who think the Moros continued fighting even after being shot was because of the drugs and the copper wire, do not understand anything about human physiology. For the record, when I retired from ER, I taught nurses and nursing students for several years, and Critical Care was a favorite subject of mine to teach.
The brain only needs two things to function, oxygen and sugar (glucose) and blood is the mechanism of delivery of those essentials. If the brain is deprived of those two things, it ceases to function, and death will ensue.
When people are shot, what kills them in the immediate aftermath, is one of two things, blood loss (hypovolemia) or extensive neuro trauma. In cases of severe bleeding, hypotension occurs and limits the body’s ability to perfuse the essential organs. As far as neuro trauma, I have seen multiple people shot in the head with 9 mm. .380, .38 Sp, .32, .25, and .22 who were not killed, and some had no discernible deficits when they were discharged from the hospital. As far as blood loss, I have seen multiple people who were shot with .380, et al. who continued with their assault in progress on their shooter, as no major organs or vessels were affected. Those who did die, albeit a vast minority of those cases, still were more likely to kill their shooter before they succumbed to the injuries, according to the investigating officers. Calibers that have limited energy cause less tissue damage and generally just punch holes. If no organs or vessels are hit, there can be minimal bleeding.
Now, in the Thompson LaGarde Report, there was a section which had a photograph of a man who was in confinement in the Philippines when he attempted to escape. He was not on drugs. During his attempt, he was shot 4 times with a .38 LC, 3 of which were chest wounds that punctured both lungs, the 4th wound was in one of his extremities. He was ultimately stopped by a butt stroke to the head with a Springfield Carbine. He was treated and about a month later, when he was healed, he was turned over to civilian authorities.
To be intellectually honest, the argument that drugs were the only reason the .38 LC failed to stop the Moros is faulty on so many levels. It does not consider what happens to those who have been shot, the physiologic responses to being shot, or even that many calibers do not provide the energy to damage tissue enough where exsanguination can occur in a timely manner.
Great article considering I own 2 out of 3 of these 380s. I would own the other one the author recommended if I could get it..Thanks, for a great article.
Budgie,
It sounds like we grew up around the same time and in the same place, when the West Valley was “Gods Country”. You are correct, Canoga Sporting Goods was in fact on the north side of Sherman Way across the street from the Green Thumb Nursery next to the Historic Canoga Park Post Office. Do you remember Adams Gun Shop on Owensmouth just north of Sherman Way. I had a part time job there before they closed down. Additionally, you mentioned Greta’s Guns so it sounds like we still inhabit the same area. If you would like to meet for lunch sometime after the Holidays let me know in the comments section and we can arrange something.
Regards,
Ed
WALTHER PPK is the benchmark for every 380 handgun. Have a THUNDER 380 and a 95 CARPTI, both PPK/S style clones in 380. The Bersa has a take-down lever, and the 95 CARPTI has the pull-down trigger guard, just like the PPK/S, for disassembly. Both have had numerous rounds fired through them. Does a Walther PPK/S type clone handgun function well? Certainly. Can a PPK/S style clone handgun be accurate? Certainly. The issue with any handgun boils down to shot placement. What makes a 380 acceptable for self-defense is that most people shot with any caliber firearm don’t want to be shot a second time. What makes most 380 handguns not acceptable is the rough triggers typical of these guns. Understand that is why so many of the newer 380 handgun models have had their triggers improved so that they break at a reasonable level. A 15 pound DA trigger is not acceptable on any handgun.
Thanks Ed. I always liked the size and overall feel of the .380 and recall one of your previous articles about lack of stopping power with the .380 being a concern if the holder is not accurate with placement. For someone like myself I just might give up the comfort of the .380 size for something larger with.a.little more pop.
Sig p232 is another great one.
Thanks for another informative and engaging article Ed.
Back in the early 90’s I purchased an FEG/Interarms PPH in .380 ACP and found it to be a Handsome and Well Made example of a Walther clone.
Clean lines, dependable function and accurate within close-combat range.
While considered an Anemic caliber in many circles, the Ballistic Testing I conducted with a variety of Factory Cartridges demonstrated acceptable velocity, penetration and expansion to give me confidence in to to make it my “Back-up”.
I kept it easily accessible in a BianchI “Askins Avenger” OWB that I bought from the “Second Hand” Bin at Pony Express after they moved from Ventura Blvd in Encino to the industrial park on the south side of Van Nuys Airport.
It was lost in a Burglary around 2005 but low and behold I found another one at Greta’s Guns in Simi Valley for the same $139 that I paid for the first and have it to this day.
BTW. Correct me if I’m mistaken but wasn’t Canoga Sporting Goods on the north side of Sherman Way across from Green Thumb nursery?
I have shot a number of 380’s and the one I decided to carry was the Taurus Spectrum. It had the best recoil and feel of all of them and it’s easy to shoot and conceal. It is almost identical in size to the S&W Bodyguard which is hurtful at best to fire a full magazine. I’ve also had the Glock 43 but was a little big for concealment.
In response to Bo re: “Let me see, back at the end of the 19th century that US Army was issuing their troops a handgun chambered in .38 Long Colt. This weapon used a .357–.358-inch (9.07–9.09 mm) bullet and generated 198 ft/lbs muzzle energy. The US military got rid of this weapon because more times than should have EVER happened, soldiers who used this in combat to shoot an enemy soldier failed to stop the attack and the soldier died. This is very well documented and led to the Army conducting tests which led to The Thompson LaGarde Report. There were issues with that report and people find many things wrong with it. That is not what I want to talk about. I just want people to know I am aware of those issues.”
Um, okay, those were the crazed Moro warriors who bound their testicles with cooper wire to jack up their pain tolerance and get into such a super-intensified fighting rage that even RIFLE rounds couldn’t stop them, let alone handgun rounds of ANY caliber!! Let’s keep things in perspective for the sake of intellectual honesty, shall we:
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/5-worst-u-s-military-guns-ever-to-fire-a-shot/
Early in my shooting career I fired a Walther PPK. I hated that little skin peeler. It was replaced with a brand new to the market Colt Pocketlite. That is a sweet little weapon and with modern Underwood ammo a formidable self-defense weapon. It is complementary to my EDC Colt Commander .45 ACP another lightweight masterpiece.
I think the best logical explanation, I have ever heard, for if/when to use a .380 was: In warm weather, when the common attire is a T-shirt, a .380 might work, but in colder weather when maybe a leather jacket over a sweat shirt is the attire of the day, you might want to rethink the .380.
I believe in the heat of a firefight for your life, the last thing anyone remembers is how punishing the recoil was.
One reason I don’t care for the .380, and therefor do not want one, is when reloading it is annoying when finding .380 brass, mixed with 9 mm brass. 🙁
One thing I never liked about the Colts, is those really tiny sights on them, which are limited for upgrades.
The sig P938, fits the pocket or a holster, easy to rack the slide, and for some reason the perceived recoil just isn’t that much. To me a CC firearm that really pushes the level limit for recoil is the 2.25″ barrel Ruger SP101 firing full house .357 Magnum. Now THAT is recoil, but even then, in a L or D situation, I doubt anyone would notice.
Seems a lot of people have the same view of the PPK. That is; it is their favorite firearm (probably because it makes them feel like 007), followed by the admission that due to functionality issues, it is also the worst POS they own, but still LOVE it. LOL
Excellent article and some interesting choices. Personally, I think 380 pistols fall into two categories, pocket pistol and belt gun, with some overlap. Pocket examples would include the Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P3AT, Kahr P380, etc. Belt pistols (for me) are the PPK, Ruger LCP MAX & LC380, S&W Shield 380, Bersa Thunder series, etc. In my limited experience, 32 is a better pocket pistol and 380 is better used as a lightweight, concealable belt pistol if 9mm is too much. My LCP has more felt recoil than a Ruger LC380 but I can’t conceal the larger one in a pocket.
Let me see, back at the end of the 19th century that US Army was issuing their troops a handgun chambered in .38 Long Colt. This weapon used a .357–.358-inch (9.07–9.09 mm) bullet and generated 198 ft/lbs muzzle energy. The US military got rid of this weapon because more times than should have EVER happened, soldiers who used this in combat to shoot an enemy soldier failed to stop the attack and the soldier died. This is very well documented and led to the Army conducting tests which led to The Thompson LaGarde Report. There were issues with that report and people find many things wrong with it. That is not what I want to talk about. I just want people to know I am aware of those issues.
I want to talk about the failure of the .38 LC as a weapon to use for self-defense. It was a miserable failure. There are documented cases of persons shot multiple times in the chest, puncturing lungs and that person was not stopped from what they were doing. There were multiple cases where enemy soldiers sustained multiple mortal wounds but continued their attack and killed the soldiers who shot them before they died. These were trained soldiers who were aware of shot placement, provided those shots in the appropriate areas but still died because the .38 LC did not have enough energy to create the kind of wound that would stop the attacker.
Now, I want to compare that to the .380. The Federal Punch .380 ACP is 85 grains and has 189 ft/lbs of energy. The Hornady .380 Auto 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense generates 200 ft/lbs of energy. Looking at ammo sold by CTD, there is Armscor USA Zombie Terminator .380 ACP, 95 Grains which generates 179 ft/lbs. Sellier & Bellot XRG Defense .380 ACP 77 Grain slugs generate 213 ft/lbs. Winchester Silvertip .380 Auto JHP 85 Grains generates 189 ft/lbs.
I could go on, but it would be more of the same. Using any weapon for self-defense should be able to deter someone and as history has shown, the .38 LC did not deter the enemy from killing their shooters even when they were dealt mortal wounds that killed them TOO LATE. The .380 generally does not have numbers that even come close to the effectiveness of the .38 LC.
I am not opposed to using this caliber as a gun to play with, go to the range and just shoot. I am opposed to this being used for self-defense as this does generally not even rise to the level of the .38 LC which has been proven historically to NOT deliver on its promise to stop any attacker. I have seen people shot with a .380. I have never seen anyone who was shot with the .380 that was dropped with one shot, or even multiple shots, who in turn, was deterred from turning on their shooter and killing or severely injuring them. I do not want anyone who carries a gun to find out when they actually use it that it was ultimately the instrument of death for the shooter.
I hear people say it works for them as they can handle it. When I look at the numbers, those numbers say it will not work as well as the .38 LC, which was a dismal failure. From my professional experience in dealing with GSWs, everything I have personally seen says the .380 has not shown itself to be efficacious and has led to the demise of too many people who relied on it for self-defense. And like the .38 LC will be a failure for most of those who call on it in the time of need.
I have shot all the 380s mentioned and most of them mentioned by the people commenting. I think the Mustang was built way ahead of its time back when 9mm was looked at as the not enough better yet 380 . I have shot 238 Sig and the cult Mustang I would honestly give the Mustang the edge. The Kahr 380 is also a good choice but the trigger resets too long for me. Ed, I think you nailed it once again with a fantastic article. Your knowledge of firearms is second to none in the industry..
Beretta 70/70s or Sig Sauer P230/P232 anyone? As well made, with better ergos and more easily shootable than anything else in their class.
My favorite 380s are made by Star, the cutest being the tiny Starfire. It’s a nifty little SA pistol from which the FIE Pony, Iver Johnson Pony, and Colt Mustang were developed. I don’t carry any 380 pistols these days but I used to carry a Walther PPK/S. Frankly, I never found the Walther 380 all that pleasant to shoot or innately reliable in this caliber. I prefer them in 32 ACP, with the PPK/L being my favorite because of its aluminum frame. For sheer steampunk good looks, it’s hard to beat the Savage 1907 with its staggered nine-round magazine. If you prefer the Casablanca coolness of Humphrey Bogart, then the Colt Pocket “Hammerless” 1908 is the way to go (okay, it was really a 1903 in 32 ACP, but who can tell on screen?). The Browning 1910 is about as sleek as they come and the Remington Model 51 is about as thin and flat as it gets. Then there’s the European styling of the Beretta 1934. I could go on and on, but you get the picture. I really do like the older 380 pistols the best. The modern crop are more practical, but lack any romance.
I thought the Ruger Security 380 would of been a good choice. But myself I carry a Colt 1911 Defender Lightweight 45acp. It’s nice and small it has a 3″barrel with a 7 of magazine
I would be interested in how the author feels about the HK4– one of the few choices that needs a brass case for the delay in blowback.
My wife prefers the SIG Sauer P238. She has small hands and it’s a perfect fit for her. After shooting a rental, she purchased a “Lady 380”, in 2014 and is still her EDC. Great little pistol!!
I’ve been carrying a PPK/S for almost 50 years–bought mine in about 1976. It’s a great gun, thin left-to-right, no unsightly bulge when you have it in an IOW holster, and nicely curvy with few jagged angles to get caught on your clothes when you need it in a hurry. But…
“fear of the … recoil … make the .380 caliber an easy choice due to its mild exhibition of those traits.”
Yeah, the recoil of the PPK/S is not bad, but it’s a snappy little beast and unless you hold it very firmly it stings your hand a lot when you fire it.
The first few picks I never hear any one ever carry due to being too heavy
The colt mustang is also one of my favorite pistols and also the kahr cw380
Most of the plastic guns are horrible to shoot but anything is better than nothing
I have to agree with your choice of the Colt Mustang. Maybe you should have included the Sig P238 as a reincarnation of the Colt. I would also included the Kel Tec 3AT in your choices for a .380 carry gun. The Ruger products are great as well.
Another one along the lines of the Colt Mustang but not a pocket gun is the RIA Baby Rock in .380. It is slightly smaller than the Kimber Micro 9 package but easily controllable with defense loads.
Why does everyone skip over the Beretta 85 when discussing either .380 or CCW pistols? It’s my personal favourite to carry.
My sister carries a SIG P365 380. With some good self defense ammo it will keep someone off of you.