Growing up as the first grandson of an immigrant Sicilian family in Brooklyn, I was regaled with tales of adventure endured in the new country by my grandfathers. One of the often told and famous tales was how my maternal grandfather, Vincenzo foiled a Manu Niuru, (that’s the Black Hand in Sicilian for those not brought up in NY). It was a kidnapping for extortion plot. He foiled it single handedly, at midnight, one dark night on the Brooklyn Bridge with nothing but “chutzpah,” and a small, cheap, pot metal .22 caliber Liberty Revolver in his vest pocket.
He went in place of his very frightened brother-in-law who was the father of the two daughters who were the focus of the attempted extortion plot. Fortunately, he did not have to resort to gunplay on the bridge that dark and lonely night. As it turned out, he was “Paisano,” of the henchmen’s boss and owed a favor.
Being “men of honor,” the plot was derailed as a returned favor to my Grandfather Vincenzo. That was how Sicilians did things in those turbulent times. Anyhow… if I was a well-behaved youngster, I would sometimes get to see that ‘very illegal’ little pistol. It was illegal because of New York’s Sullivan Law.
The law was passed to prevent immigrants (such as my grandfather) from possessing firearms in the “Big Apple” during the early 1900s. When my grandfather passed away at 93, I became the beneficiary of the legendary little revolver. However, other than the tie to him and the story, I really had no interest in pipsqueak pistols at the time.
Things took an unexpected change during the mid ’80s when I decided a smaller carry gun than my Browning Hi-Power might be a good idea. AMT had come out with its Back Up in .380, and I thought that would be just the ticket. As fate would have it, a friend (who was very knowledgeable about firearms) was visiting. His occupation was that of a professional gambler. However, I suspected he was really on retainer from one of those alphabet government agencies people talked about in hushed tones due to the innuendo in his anecdotes.
One day, I asked if he wanted to take a ride with me to the Pony Express Gun Shop which was close by and one of the largest and best firearms emporiums and hangouts for gun guys in the Los Angeles area. He agreed, and off we went. On the drive over, he asked what I was looking for. I mentioned the AMT. His response took me by surprise.
He said, “You should get a Seecamp.” I, of course, had no idea what a Seecamp was — let alone that I should buy one. He explained, “It’s the smallest and best undercover pistol in the world. It was designed after a special request from the (insert ‘three letters here’) for their ‘deep cover agents’ to carry. I am so sure you will like it that if you buy one and don’t like it, I’ll give you twice what you paid for it.” That was an offer I could not refuse.
I have carried a Seecamp off and on ever since. Currently, I own three and believe it is the finest, smallest, undercover, ‘vest pocket’ pistol one could possess. With that statement, I should probably tell you why I feel that way. So, let me start with a little history.
The Seecamp
Ludwig (Louis) Wilhelm Seecamp, after whom the company is named, was born in 1901 and was trained as a master gunsmith in pre World War II Germany. Having survived the war after having served as an elite Gebirgsjäger, he brought his family to the United States in 1959 by way of Canada. From 1959 until his retirement in 1971, he designed guns at O. F. Mossberg.
As a result of his experiences, Ludwig had become a believer in double-action auto pistols — especially after a Walther P38 saved his life in WWII. That incident left him with a cheek-long scar and some missing teeth from a bullet wound. It also convinced him of the value of point shooting, rather than sighted fire, during close combat. That perspective greatly influenced his future designs.
After coming to the U.S., he also became a big fan of the 1911. It was a natural progression that he meld his advocacy of ‘double action’ with the 1911. His solution was the Colt 1911 in .45 ACP that he converted to double action for his personal protection.
In 1973, the L. W. Seecamp Co., Inc. was founded by Ludwig and his son Lueder (Larry) as a family business. It specialized in Ludwig’s patented double-action conversions of the Colt 1911 semi-auto pistol. His conversion was designed when the single- versus double-action controversy was at its peak. Seecamp’s offering was the first commercially-available, double-action .45 ACP pistol. Nearly 2,000 such double-action conversions were made from the early ’70s through the early ’80s.
Fortuitously, the Gun Control Act of 1968 made small, high-quality pistols impossible to find. Additionally, the concept of double-action-only (DAO) had been neglected and was due for a reintroduction. Ludwig saw the opportunity and his gunsmithing was abandoned to specialize in manufacturing.
Building on the concept that a larger pistol requires greater effort to hide from public view — and therefore becomes less accessible — was the guiding philosophy. In 1981, the LWS .25 was introduced to fill the niche that had been neglected. I can’t help but recall what my friend told me (about the motivation for the design) was true.
A short time later, the LWS .25 was discontinued and the LWS .32 superseded it. The larger-caliber pistol maintained the same size as the .25, which was considered an amazing feat of engineering. One of the unique features that made the miniaturization possible was that the .32 ACP uses a Chamber Ring Delayed blowback action. The Seecamp is one of few modern pistols which use this system. It is essential and makes the small size of the pistol possible.
The first known use of the Chamber Ring Delayed system was on the Fritz Mann pistol in 1920, and later, the High Standard model T3 experimental pistol. Other pistols that have used this system were the AMT Automag II and Kimball .30 Carbine pistol.
How it Works
Let me, briefly, try to describe the concept of how the Chamber Ring Delayed system works. When a metallic cartridge is fired, the cartridge case expands slightly and seals off the chamber, preventing gas from escaping to the rear. Therefore, in all breechloading guns, the diameter of the firing chamber is slightly larger than the unfired cartridge case’s diameter, so cartridges fit easily into the chamber.
In a Chamber Ring Delayed action, the firing chamber has a ring or grove cut around it on the inside, which makes the front of the firing chamber slightly larger in diameter than the back of the chamber. In the LWS .32, the cut is a U-shaped cut at the forward end of the chamber.
When the cartridge is fired, it expands to fill the chamber. Because the front of the chamber has a wider diameter, the front of the cartridge expands more than the back. When the cartridge is being pushed backward by the expanding gases, the front of the empty case, which is now expanded to a larger diameter, rubs against the ring, and slows due to the increased friction.
Since the case is the one pushing the bolt back, slowing the backward movement of the empty case also delays the bolt’s corresponding motion. This design can usually only be used by very compact weapons, such as the Seecamp series of pistols.
Prior to the introduction of the LWS .25, firearm manuals did not address the issue of self-defense. I’m sure it was on the advice of attorneys, that it was implied in the included instruction manuals that every pistol was a target pistol. Seecamp was the first manufacturer to acknowledging self-defense as a legitimate reason for owning a firearm. As a completely novel concept at the time, it was almost as shocking as the pistol without sights.
Continuing its nonconforming approach, Seecamp does not put sights on the LWS because it does not seek to encourage the misuse of the firearms or suggest a non-existent capability. The LWS is designated as being strictly for self-defense. Additionally, almost all crimes happen at night, under bad lighting conditions, and at short range.
Assaults and robberies are also conducted at touching distance. The theory behind the system goes something like this… If you can’t hit the target by ‘point shooting’ at spitting distance, you better have a good lawyer explain why your life was threatened by someone so far away that you needed sights. It can be argued that sights are an offensive tool, and the LWS is not an offensive weapon.
Final Thoughts
What I can tell you about every Seecamp is that they are one of the finest made and thoroughly tested firearms on the market. While some manufacturers only shoot sample guns, Seecamp shoots every gun. So, if you notice some internal powder residue on your pistol, it is because it was test fired. The slight residue will not affect your gun.
Should you ever have a problem, send the gun back and Seecamp will repair it. I had one that I obtained at a bargain price because it had been abused and neglected. I took possession and sent the gun in for repair. It was returned in brand new condition, and that speaks well to its customer service.
If you want a small, deep cover, reliable, and accurate pistol, there is no finer choice in my opinion than a Seecamp. Stay safe. Train often. And practice, practice, practice!
Given a choice, If I had to shoot to defend my life or the life of my family, my .32 Seecamp would not be my first choice. My 12 guage would be, then 20 gauge, then 30-06, then 30/30, then .410, then 10mm, then .45acp, then .357 magnum, then 9m, then .380, then 38 special, then .32acp, then .22 long, and .22 short last before I pulled out my Gerber pocket knife. 😉 All of that said, the only guns I own that fit comfortably in my front pocket are my old (1993) Seecamp in .32acp and a much newer POS Seecamp in .25acp. Frankly, my old .32 Seecamp is what I have on me daily, so it is the weapon I would likely use, and I feel very comfortable that 7 rounds from inside 20 feet would do the job just fine. My newer .25 Seecamp was made by the current vendor, Whalley Precision. I would not trust that jammomatic to be much more than a decent paperweight to be thrown at a bad guy. For those looking for a Seecamp, I suggest getting one made by Larry Seecamp! These are great weapons!
As a physician, myself, ableit in the Caribbean, I would have to respectfully disagree with SOME of the conclussions of the other doctor on this posting. I dont doubt his experience, both military and health care. And my own limitations; I dont see as large a variety of calibre nor firearms as in the US. However, our islands can get quite violent with such close proximity to South American drug cartels.
Here, it is not the practice of our EMS ambulances to transport dead bodies that have died on the spot and ER reources, skill, and time is too limited to spend on dead bodies they cannot help.
I have great respect for this physician and his health care team’s ability to stabilize and save their gunshot victims. It is a testament to his training, experience, and skill. However, I do question the number of dead bodies that he does NOT see, since ambulance and ER resources are not (at least in our city) spent on rapidly transporting a dead crime victim. Typically, it is shunted to a medical examiner, coroner, or other mortuary service to take the body from site to death to proper storage.
So, it’s my opinion that 32 caliber wounds can be treated with a high percentages of successful and victims may not always be rendered harmless, but these same 32 caliber bullets that successfully killed victims on the spot are rarely seen by ER personnel, so the data may not be complete.
Please do not see disrespect where none was intended, but I would like to offer a differing opinion on the subject.
Excellent article on an excellent pistol.
Remember folks, the company specifies the type of ammo to use.
I last ran a seecamp with ‘cheap’ pmc ammo as it was what was available. Ran flawlessly. And contrary to what some may say its a pretty accurate little pistol… granted my point of aim was nearly a foot from poi. In my opinion thats just fine as i was shooting at ranges FAR beyond what it was meant for. I disagree with comment that a slow careful pull leads to failures. I have not had that experience. Poor grip may be something to look at.
There’s always comments about how a tiny pistol is hard to hold and i never understand them. In 32acp it is very controllable. Yes its a bit small for ultimate comfort, but the comfort of having it, not hand comfort is the point of a tiny pistol.
Thanks to Ed and CTD for another classic article.
Good explanation of chamber design.
Apologies if this posts twice… had issues few days back when i first attempted.
Excellent article on an excellent pistol.
Remember folks, the company specifies the type of ammo to use.
I last ran a seecamp with cheap pmc ammo as it was what was available. Ran flawlessly. And contrary to what some may say its a pretty accurate little pistol… granted my point of aim was nearly a foot from poi. In my opinion thats just fine as i was shooting at ranges FAR beyond what it was meant for. I disagree with comment that a slow careful pull leads to failures. I have not had that experience. Poor grip may be something to look at.
There’s always comments about how a tiny pistol is hard to hold and i never understand them. In 32acp it is very controllable. Yes its a bit small for ultimate comfort, but the comfort of having it, not hand comfort is the point of a tiny pistol.
Thanks to Ed and CTD for another classic article.
Good explanation of chamber design.
In response to these discussions, I found myself doing research on The Thompson-LaGarde Report. It was a 43 page typed double spaced report on standard 8½ X 11 paper with accompanying photographs and “skiagrams,” which we refer to today as x-rays.
One thing I found while engaged in that research was a couple of photographs, labeled Figure 48. The caption provided was as follows: I am quoting here. “Fig. 48- Antonio Caspi a prisoner on the Island of Samar, P.I. Attempted to escape Oct.26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter with a .38 cal. Colt’s revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt-end of a Springfield carbine. 1. Bullet entered chest near right nipple, passed upward, backward and outward, perforated lung and escaped through back passing through edge of right scapula. 2. Bullet entered chest near left nipple, passed upward, backward and inward, perforated lung and lodged in back in subcutaneous tissues. 3. Bullet entered chest near left shoulder, passed downward and backward, perforated lung and lodged in back. 4. Bullet entered palm of left hand and passed through subcutaneous tissues and escaped through wound on anterior surface of forearm. Treated at military hospital, Borongan, Samar. Turned over to civil authorities cured, Nov.23, 1905. Reported by L.P. Lewald, 1st Lieut. Medical Corps, U.S. Army.” There are two pictures of the man, in a sitting position with scars from the wounds he received from the pistol.
This is further documentation of the failure of sub-par weaponry. This man was shot four times, with both lungs punctured, left lung more than once, but was not stopped from his escape attempt until someone provided a butt stroke to the forehead of a wood stocked carbine. This coincides with what I have seen multiple times in the ER, where people were shot and went on to kill their shooter before they began to suffer sequelae from the wounds sustained from the GSW.
As an aside, I never did like the idea of using an M-16 to deliver a butt stroke to an opponent’s head when it is a life-or-death situation and for me to apply that technique would have to be a life-or-death situation. I felt fortunate that I did not carry an M-16 when I was overseas, nor did I ever witness anyone who did who needed to use that technique. The 1911 I carried was adequate for everything it was called upon to do without resorting to clubbing anyone with it.
@John: Thank you. I try not to seek out conflict, regardless of what others think. I just have very strong feelings on the matter of self-defense weapons as I have seen so many fails in that regard. I do not like to go on the offensive but when folks assail my points with misinformation, I will call them out. I do not enjoy conflict and because of that, when there is conflict, I try to end it quickly. So right or wrong, I have a tendency to take an approach that was summarized on a sign posted on a wall 50 some years ago. That sign was KTA, LGSTO. It stood for Kill Them All, Let God Sort them out. Other people have called that a Take No Prisoners approach. Part of this is due to my time in the Army, trying to avoid conflict but when it was there to meet it with firm, unrelenting, directed force when encountered. And my ADHD does nothing to mitigate that, even with the Adderall.
For me, when this topic comes up, I kind of feel like a parent of a teenage daughter, doing me best to not hurt her feelings when I tell her that a man she met online that she has a crush on, but will not even come to meet you, is not reliable nor desirable, that if he will not, that is a red flag. She has not physically laid eyes on him, but she knows him through her chats with him. Tell me if this sounds familiar to anyone.
Now, the parent, who has been through many more life changing events than the teenager, can recognize major impending disasters. But, the teenager, who lacks as much life experience “knows” so much more about who that man she loves “really” is inside. I have just described how many young girls end up being trafficked. The girls have not seen the man and will not listen to those who can see danger signs.
Now, what is the parent to do? You sound the alarm about what you see. That is what I have been doing when it comes to using self-defense weapons. I have experience that few others have, and I do not want anyone to die as a result of following a path that I see will probably lead to their demise if they stay on that path.
We saw those in the ER who used the calibers I described and were killed as a result as well as those who were shot. It is disheartening to work them both and the thug is the one who gets saved. I have gone in with the doc many times to tell the family that “We did everything we could, unfortunately it was not enough.”
But unfortunately, there are those who, like the teenager in love, cling to false hopes that their chosen weapon will deliver them from evil. In my experience it will not. And like the parent I described, I receive all sorts of condemnation from those who have never walked the path that I have, have never gone with a doc to tell them that their family member is dead. I have seen too much to stay silent and let people die. People who have not been there, want to believe, they know more about what is going on that those of us who have. Sounds like teenage behavior to me.
@John: Thank you. I have never sought out conflict, regardless of what others think. I do have very strong feelings on the matter of self-defense weapons as I have seen so many fails in that regard. I do not like to go on the offensive but if there are those who assail my points with misinformation, I will call them out. I do not like conflict and because of that, when there is conflict, I have a tendency to take a what we had posted on a wall 50 some years ago kind of approach. That was KTA, LGSTO. It stood for Kill Them All, Let God Sort them out. Other people have called that a Take No Prisoners approach. Part of this is due to my time in the Army, trying to keep away from conflict but meeting it with firm, unrelenting, directed force when encountered. And my ADHD does nothing to mitigate that, even with the Adderall.
This next comment is not as tangential as some will think when they begin to read it, but it gives a perspective on why I am so adamant and focused on using the wrong weapon. One thing that has amazed me over decades of practice in the ER is how many women who, after having been beaten, sometimes almost to death, would blame themselves for what their partner did to them. I cannot tell you how many times I have been told by the victim, ‘You don’t understand… He really loves me… He promised he won’t do it again… It was my fault because I was the one who made him mad…’ as they turned down an offer to go to the women’s shelter or someplace, any place where their partner could not find them. They could not accept the evidence that was plainly in front of them that their life was in danger.
And more times than I can count, the victim returned to the abusive partner. I will add, that in too many of these cases, the next time we saw these women, they arrived dead at the hands of the man who “loved” them. One time is too many, but I have seen scores of these cases. Each one is heartbreaking. But these women had the mindset that things would be different the next time. They all died holding on to a hope that could never materialize.
I have been told by more cops than I can count that domestic abuse cases are often the most dangerous calls they make, because even in the face of horrible abuse, the abused woman will frequently attack the cop who is arresting their abuser. I have known a number of cops who were seriously injured in cases like this. Ask Bob Campbell if I am off base.
I say this because from all those years of seeing human tragedy and humanity at their worst, I see no difference between the abused woman (who believes she can change her man and that he will not do it again, despite all evidence to the contrary) and those who believe that certain calibers will do the job, not believing that they will most likely get the shooter killed if that weapon is used in self-defense. They have no data to support this blind faith, but they attack anyone who challenges them with facts.
People who cling to a false hope in these calibers will attack and vilify anyone who tries to burst their bubble of hope. They take on a ‘take no prisoners’ attitude, close their ears and scream ‘Blasphemy!” when someone tried to inject some reality into their fantasy world. They also become angry when their fantasy is labeled fantasy. Just saying. Their blood is on their own head. I did my best to warn them; it is not on me, but on all those who did not listen or those who said, ‘He doesn’t know what he’s talking about… This will do the job…’
There is a house fire! I’m just trying to alert the occupants before they get burned.
Bo, by way of respectful reply, I do not intend to engage with you regarding your experience or expertise on GSWs other than to thank you for your service. I have no such experience to draw on, the only thing that is remotely comparable in my experience is the recognition that bullet placement counts in hunting. My point is that I think we can disagree respectfully, without being disrespectful. I think we all may have fallen into the trap of quoting from unverified sources, myself included, and I do not disagree that this should be pointed out when we see it. My point is that when we disagree, it is always more constructive when we do so tactfully and respectfully. Our opponents will utilize every opportunity to rob us of our freedoms. All the best to you, Sir.
@John and Budgie:
You both have missed my point in all of this, so let me ask you a question. If you were driving down the street at night and saw a house on fire, and you saw that no one seemed to know, should you stop to check if there was anyone inside and possibly alert the occupants to get out? If one would not, then from my perspective, that one will have the blood of those people on their heads (Ezek 33:6) I am trying to tell people if they carry these weapons, their house is on fire
I would hope that the true common ground we can agree on we do not want people to be just prey on the street, to be killed while trying to protect themselves with a weapon that CANNOT deliver what is expected.
I am sure many of the smaller caliber guns are fun to shoot and reliable when out on the range. But there are too many people who believe that having a gun, ANY gun is better than no gun. Over more than three decades in the ER seeing GSW patients, I have seen the results of too many of those someones using .22, .25, .32, and .380 to defend themselves. In the vast majority of the cases, we saw the shootee (and saved their miserable @$$ so they could go to prison, or at least we worked the few that didn’t make it until they were pronounced) but as I said, the majority of the time, the shooter died. The shootee killed them after being shot, more than one was beaten to death, but sometimes the shootee took the gun away from the shooter, put the gun, either in the shooter’s mouth or up against the shooter’s head and emptied the gun, killing the shooter. That is a story I heard from the cops working those cases DOZENS of times, with just about all of those calibers.
Now, I ask you, if you knew that you were two to three times more likely to be killed if you presented the weapon you were carrying, would you present it? According to the cops, the majority of those dead people probably would not be dead IF they had not shot their attacker; they would have had their stuff taken but they would not be DEAD. They had faith in a weapon that DID not deliver. They were dead AND had their stuff taken. Sounds like a FAIL to me, Whatcha think?
To me, this is all about people STAYIN’ ALIVE, Ah, ah, ah, ah (Sorry, just had a BeeGees moment.) I am not against those guns as shooters and plinkers, just against them being used for self-defense as I (and dozens of cops I have known over more than three decades) have seen since those people are more likely to end up DEAD. I saw too many who died to stand by and pretend everything will be ok if you carry a .32 or the other calibers I mentioned. Don’t want their blood on my head.
I have asked this of many people in these discussions; how many GSW victims have either of you seen? For me, it is in the hundreds, if not more. How many families have you known who buried a loved one who died from senseless violence? Me, too many to count. And, carrying a subpar weapon increases the chances that the bearer will die. I have known too many cops for too long who have told me, these weapons are The Last Bad Choice Of Dead People Everywhere. Because in too many cases, their choice killed them.
Prove me wrong.
Ed, I must agree with “BUDGIE”. Great article, great little pistol within its obvious limitations. The conflict is unfortunate. We in the 2A community have enough enemies, it would be great if we focused more on our common ground than our differences.
Ed.
I had no idea that complimenting you on a well written article and sharing my personal experiences would result in so much conflict.
It would appear some CTD readers simply insist upon being Right, whether it takes hours of Research or composing multiple paragraphs of Correction.
I guess everybody needs a Hobby. Regardless of all that nonsense, I still think that the Seacamp is a well made and reliable Pistol and I thank you for the article.
@Dacian: I did some research. There was NO 1900 Stockyards Slaughter testing as you state. There was the 1904 study which resulted in the publication of The Thompson-LaGarde Report. I don’t know where you got your information but either you have been taken in by false reporting or you have been complicit in spreading misinformation.
In reading several articles concerning the Report and how the results were derived, it appears that you have either failed to do due process as far as your own investigation. The .45 ACP was designed to meet the inadequacies of the 1904 (Not 1900) ammo testing. That means the .45 ACP was not around to be compared to other rounds for that testing. I could not find anything to validate your statement about soldiers complaining about the .45 ACP.
While doing my research I found pretty much your statement verbatim written by one Vlad Tepes on May 22, 2019 (really? I thought he died in the 15th century) on a website called The Truth About Guns. Vlad wrote, “Your repeating the same old gun writer myths. Jan Libourel the gun writer did and exhaustive in depth study on America’s mass murder in the Philippine Islands. He found not one shred of evidence in U.S. Army Documents that stated any pistol calibers worked any better than the .38 long colt, including the 45 Long colt and the .45 acp. This was propaganda dreamed up by prostitute gun writers trying to sell Colt 1911 pistols after the war”
Not only is the timeline wrong for that statement, as I stated before, the .45 ACP was not around then. I remember Jan Libourel and read a lot of his articles. I do NOT remember anything he ever wrote that was anti .45 ACP or the 1911. And you know what, there is NOTHING online that I could find to support your statement about his findings. That makes me question any (all) of what you have written.
There was also a comment echoing your comments in 2015 by one Petru Sovan in a Guns America Blog, Shooting History that stated the tests were in 1900 (they were not) and talks about some of your other points although Petru asserts the 9 mm is more reliable. Try as I might I could not find anything about the alleged Pistolero article back in 1980. They only went out of print back in the 80’s so not much of a surprise. But I don’t believe the study ever took place. Prove me wrong! You said “(the only differences being pigs are better behaved)” There is one more difference you failed to address. Pigs do not get online and spread misinformation.
Now if you can provide validation (website, book, whatever) of all your assertions, I would be more than willing to read them. But I find it disheartening to hear someone besmirching the reputation of a well-respected journalist and fellow citizen in the gun community for decades especially when it does not coincide with what I remember of the man. That verges pretty close to slander to say he said that, IF he, in fact, did not, and I am starting to not believe he ever did say, or write, anything remotely like that. If you can validate your statements, I will apologize to you, but until then, your veracity, in my book, remains severely in question. The ball is in your court, Dacian (Or is it Petru? Or is it Vlad?)
@Dacian: at the risk of being accused of being snarky, I would point out that pigs do not have autonomy as do humans. They do not engage in self-rule or even govern themselves. To wit, the definition of autonomy: 1. the quality or state of being self-governing, especially the right of self-government. 2. self-directing freedom and especially moral independence. So, autonomy is not present in any pig population, with the possible exception of George Orwell’s Animal Farm.
Now, as to the anatomy of pigs compared to a person, their heart is very similar to a human heart. But when it comes to shooting an animal compared to a human, there are more differences that need to be taken into consideration. As far as working on animals, when I was in my advanced medic training, we did a stint through the Army Goat lab at Brooke Army Medical Center back in the early 70’s. I believe it has since been moved to what was Fort Bragg before they changed the names of different Forts. The goats were shot in the front and rear quarters, one with an M-16 and the other with an M-14. We practiced wound debridement, cricothyroidotomies, stuff like that. There many have been more things but in the more than 50 years since that time, I have forgotten what all we did.
From the standpoint of a retired healthcare professional, the differences between human and pig anatomy are greater than the similarities and what is true in pig anatomy does not always translate to human. I have personally butchered scores of deer in the last forty years. There are principles that remain the same, but one cannot extrapolate that what will take a human down will always work for deer or pig or vice versa.
@Dacian: Ah yes. Your pearls of wisdom. My first question to you is how many GSW patients have you actually seen or taken part in the care of them. For me, it well into the triple digits, if not 4. I was an Army medic overseas, not playing nice with people some 50 years ago, doing SAR/Recon. Then I was an ER nurse playing in large busy metro ER’s for more than 30 years. I have noticed how many people think what they read online is of higher value than real life experience in the field. It was Henry Rollins who said, “Knowledge withOUT mileage equals B***S***.” I concur.
I find it interesting that there was data in 1900 for those rounds you mention because the .45ACP was not around to complain about or compare to those other rounds until 1911, years after the Spanish American War in the Philippines. That is like complaining about the lack of effectiveness of Star Trek Phasers. Did they have a time machine to go into the future to get rounds to compare. They could NOT have been compared at the time you claim. I call HOGWASH. If you got that wrong, that would make the bulk of your assertions to be very suspect.
The Pistolero study did not compare human targets hit with those rounds. I have seen more people with GSWs than anyone I know in just about every caliber other than .40, and I have seen multiple real life examples that discredit that study to the point of embarrassment. In my 30 plus years in ER, I saw multiple people hit with .25, .32, .38 Sp, and 9 mm who were not put down, some at point blank range, and some in the head. One man killed a cop after he was shot in the head with a 9. I have seen a number of people shot with a .45. I have never seen a center of mass or head shot with a .45 fail to go to ground right there. And I have seen a number of them.
It is true that the .45 ACP slug would bounce off enemy soldiers’ helmets. What you fail to mention is that it was documented that more than one enemy soldier whose helmet was hit, died from a broken neck. It is similar to being hit in the helmet with a baseball bat. So, let’s see, can any other round make that claim? If so, I have not heard of it.
As far as the .38 Special, back in the late 60’s, I believe it was, LAPD did a study and found that the standard .38 Sp police load failed to penetrate the windshield of a car a majority of the time. Too many manikins in the seat of the junk cars were untouched by the fired rounds or even broken glass. That is when LAPD went to .357.
I have seen dozens of GSWs from a .32 who not only survived, but killed their shooter before they were found by EMS or the cops. We saved almost all of them so they could go to prison. What have you seen, not read about, or looked up data online, what have you actually seen as far as GSW patients?
You are correct about guns used in Africa that many hunters used smaller calibers. Walter Dalrymple Maitland “Karamojo” Bell comes to mind. Shot placement is absolutely essential.
Now, as far as shot placement; have you ever been in a situation where you had to draw down on someone? I have, more than once. It is different than anything you have ever done before, and it changes you in ways you cannot imagine, and not always in a good way. As I said, we did not play nice in the Army some 50 years ago. This is a topic that most people do not understand until you are there, when you actually do so. Until you have done it a number of times, Fight or Flight kicks in and that is not something anyone can control; it is the Sympathetic Nervous System branch of the Autonomic Nervous System. Your heart rate picks up, as do respirations. As adrenaline and cortisol are dumped into your system, there are multiple responses that take place. One critical change is the muscles in the eye contract to cause tunnel vision to occur, making it almost impossible to acquire the sights of one’s weapon and the target simultaneously. Only after one has been through the real thing multiple times does one’s body decide that things are under control and that one can now acquire the sights on one’s weapon and deliver good shot placement and take out the target. Think of Buck Fever magnified by tenfold or more.
What is your REAL LIFE experience with GSWs of any caliber? If the number is not in the hundreds, how is it even consequential, let alone valid in this discussion? If you are just going on your online research, I go back to my Henry Rollins quote.
I carried a seacamp .25 for about 22 years as a second or sometimes a third backup and or off duty weapon when concealability was difficult with any other pistol. If I thought there was any other kind of Hassard I said the hell with it and carried at least a 9mm, usually larger.
I do wonder if the low results are due to a one shot scenario. If you know you are using a sub pistol you sure should not train or just shoot once. The seacamp is a contact weapon for no more than 10 feet. If you don’t train to shoot as fast as you can for as long as you can you would most likely lose the event or end up with a most unwelcome tie. Any gun when you need it is better than no gun at… Wake up people.
Good article Mr. LaPorta but for me, I still prefer to carry my Flash Gordon laser gun from the 50’s.
Simple and easy to use. Cheers….
I wish I’d have known about the service policy. I’ve had two seecamps and neither one would function properly. FTF, FTE being most common as well as just not firing. I cleaned lubed/ not lubed and diagnosed as far as my moderate gunsmithing talents would allow and then had two very good old smiths look at both and they couldn’t get them to run either with any consistency. One was better than the other but even it couldn’t get through a mag without a failure and Many of those being 1st or second shots.
Given the size being almost impossible for me to even hold in my large hands and my lack of confidence in the stopping ability of the .32 I’d have never used them for their intended purpose even if they did work except perhaps as a backup to a backup backup gun.
The Seecamp is very similar to the Czech CZ45 .25 acp pistol.
The Seecamp is available in ,380
Jan Libourel former now retired gun writer thoroughly researched the U.S. war in the Philippine Islands and found zero evidence that the .38 Colt, or 45 long Colt were inferior to the 45 Acp. The Troops complained about all of the U.S. pistol calibers being anemic, including the mythical .45 acp.
In the Famous Co. Thompson 1900 Stockyard slaughter trials Col. Thompson found that when killing 1,200 lb steers that the .30 Luger and 9×19 Luger killed the big steers every bit as well as his .44 and .45 cal revolvers. Not wishing to prove himself wrong about how lethal the big bore cartridges were he panicked and cheated by then using expanding bullets and failed again to prove that the large revolver cartridges were more lethal but he then lied between his teeth when he recommended to the U.S. Ordnance board that the U.S. Military should chose an auto pistol chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge.
In 1945 the U.S. Army found that the .45 acp would bounce off a helmet at only 35 yards while the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and may have been able to do that even further away but no one that day was able to hit the helmet beyond 125 yards.
The German Army adopted the .32 acp over the .380 because the .380 bounced off of a helmet while the .32 acp penetrated it.
Pistolero Magazine in the 1980’s shot live domestic farm hogs in Mexico whose autonomy is astonishingly similar to Human autonomy and found zero difference in killing power when using the .38 Special,, .357 Mag, 9×19, and 45 Acp. Pistolero said the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9mm but none of the calibers was superior over the other calibers.
Most of Africa’s big game was not exterminated by Ivory Hunters using monster double barrel rifles in .577 or .600 Nitro express but were killed off both by poor white farmers using surplus military rifles in 6.5, 7mm , 8mm and .303 British and Black Game Wardens being issued these same weapons proving that it was not caliber size but bullet placement and penetration that was most important.
Agnes Herbert,perhaps the most famous of women hunters back in her day said she saw zero difference in killing power when dispatching big dangerous wild game when comparing her 6.5 Mannlicher caliber rifle to her big double barrel .450 express. Agnes hunted dangerous big game all over the world and shot more big game than 1000 hunters shoot today in a lifetime.
to Bo
quote————Let’s look at the numbers for the .32 ACP and compare them to a colossal failure for the US military, the .38 LC. The .38 LC had muzzle energy of 198 ft/lbs from a 150-gr slug and did not have enough energy to qualify as having stopping power according to the US Army. It failed to stop innumerable bad guys in combat and got a lot of American GI’s killed. That failure led to the creation of the .45 ACP.————–quote
Jan Libourel former now retired gun writer thoroughly researched the U.S. war in the Philippine Islands and found zero evidence that the .38 Colt, or 45 long Colt were inferior to the 45 Acp. The Troops complained about all of the U.S. pistol calibers being anemic, including the mythical .45 acp.
In the Famous Co. Thompson 1900 Stockyard slaughter trials Col. Thompson found that when killing 1,200 lb steers that the .30 Luger and 9×19 Luger killed the big steers every bit as well as his .44 and .45 cal revolvers. Not wishing to prove himself wrong about how lethal the big bore cartridges were he panicked and cheated by then using expanding bullets and failed again to prove that the large revolver cartridges were more lethal but he then lied between his teeth when he recommended to the U.S. Ordnance board that the U.S. Military should chose an auto pistol chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge.
In 1945 the U.S. Army found that the .45 acp would bounce off a helmet at only 35 yards while the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and may have been able to do that even further away but no one that day was able to hit the helmet beyond 125 yards.
The German Army adopted the .32 acp over the .380 because the .380 bounced off of a helmet while the .32 acp penetrated it.
Pistolero Magazine in the 1980’s shot live domestic farm hogs in Mexico whose autonomy is astonishingly similar to Human autonomy and found zero difference in killing power when using the .38 Special,, .357 Mag, 9×19, and 45 Acp. Pistolero said the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9mm but none of the calibers was superior over the other calibers.
Most of Africa’s big game was not exterminated by Ivory Hunters using monster double barrel rifles in .577 or .600 Nitro express but were killed off both by poor white farmers using surplus military rifles in 6.5, 7mm , 8mm and .303 British and Black Game Wardens being issued these same weapons proving that it was not caliber size but bullet placement and penetration that was most important.
Agnes Herbert,perhaps the most famous of women hunters back in her day said she saw zero difference in killing power when dispatching big dangerous wild game when comparing her 6.5 Mannlicher caliber rifle to her big double barrel .450 express. Agnes hunted dangerous big game all over the world and shot more big game than 1000 hunters shoot today in a lifetime.
to Bo
quote————Let’s look at the numbers for the .32 ACP and compare them to a colossal failure for the US military, the .38 LC. The .38 LC had muzzle energy of 198 ft/lbs from a 150-gr slug and did not have enough energy to qualify as having stopping power according to the US Army. It failed to stop innumerable bad guys in combat and got a lot of American GI’s killed. That failure led to the creation of the .45 ACP.————–quote
Jan Libourel former now retired gun writer thoroughly researched the U.S. war in the Philippine Islands and found zero evidence that the .38 Colt, or 45 long Colt were inferior to the 45 Acp. The Troops complained about all of the U.S. pistol calibers being anemic, including the mythical .45 acp.
In the Famous Co. Thompson 1900 Stockyard slaughter trials Col. Thompson found that when killing 1,200 lb steers that the .30 Luger and 9×19 Luger killed the big steers every bit as well as his .44 and .45 cal revolvers. Not wishing to prove himself wrong about how lethal the big bore cartridges were he panicked and cheated by then using expanding bullets and failed again to prove that the large revolver cartridges were more lethal but he then lied between his teeth when he recommended to the U.S. Ordnance board that the U.S. Military should chose an auto pistol chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge.
In 1945 the U.S. Army found that the .45 acp would bounce off a helmet at only 35 yards while the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and may have been able to do that even further away but no one that day was able to hit the helmet beyond 125 yards.
The German Army adopted the .32 acp over the .380 because the .380 bounced off of a helmet while the .32 acp penetrated it.
Pistolero Magazine in the 1980’s shot live domestic farm hogs in Mexico whose autonomy is astonishingly similar to Human autonomy (the only differences being pigs are better behaved) and found zero difference in killing power when using the .38 Special,, .357 Mag, 9×19, and 45 Acp. Pistolero said the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9mm but none of the calibers was superior over the other calibers.
Most of Africa’s big game was not exterminated by Ivory Hunters using monster double barrel rifles in .577 or .600 Nitro express but were killed off both by poor white farmers using surplus military rifles in 6.5, 7mm , 8mm and .303 British and Black Game Wardens being issued these same weapons proving that it was not caliber size but bullet placement and penetration that was most important.
Agnes Herbert,perhaps the most famous of women hunters back in her day said she saw zero difference in killing power when dispatching big dangerous wild game when comparing her 6.5 Mannlicher caliber rifle to her big double barrel .450 express. Agnes hunted dangerous big game all over the world and shot more big game than 1000 hunters shoot today in a lifetime.
Here are the problems I have found with the Seecamp
The recoil is horrendous and the back of the trigger guard will rap you right on the knuckles.
Without any sights a person is forced to raise up the muzzle of the gun to see where you are aiming the pistol resulting in a shot going very high, often enough for you to entirely miss the target.
The Seecamp will only chamber the lighter weight 60 grain projectiles which is the worst ammo you can shoot out of a .32 because it lacks the penetration of the standard 73 grain factory rounds.
This gun operates on the margin of reliability. If you doubt this try slowly squeezed the trigger to make a precision shot and the weapon will misfire every time because the hammer does not snap all the way back giving it not enough forward momentum to ignite the primer of the chambered round. Only by pulling the trigger quickly will the hammer snap all the way back when firing the weapon.
to Bo
quote————Let’s look at the numbers for the .32 ACP and compare them to a colossal failure for the US military, the .38 LC. The .38 LC had muzzle energy of 198 ft/lbs from a 150-gr slug and did not have enough energy to qualify as having stopping power according to the US Army. It failed to stop innumerable bad guys in combat and got a lot of American GI’s killed. That failure led to the creation of the .45 ACP.————–quote
Jan Libourel former now retired gun writer thoroughly researched the U.S. war in the Philippine Islands and found zero evidence that the .38 Colt, or 45 long Colt were inferior to the 45 Acp. The Troops complained about all of the U.S. pistol calibers being anemic, including the mythical .45 acp.
In the Famous Co. Thompson 1900 Stockyard slaughter trials Col. Thompson found that when killing 1,200 lb steers that the .30 Luger and 9×19 Luger killed the big steers every bit as well as his .44 and .45 cal revolvers. Not wishing to prove himself wrong about how lethal the big bore cartridges were he panicked and cheated by then using expanding bullets and failed again to prove that the large revolver cartridges were more lethal but he then lied between his teeth when he recommended to the U.S. Ordnance board that the U.S. Military should chose an auto pistol chambered for a .45 caliber cartridge.
In 1945 the U.S. Army found that the .45 acp would bounce off a helmet at only 35 yards while the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and may have been able to do that even further away but no one that day was able to hit the helmet beyond 125 yards.
The German Army adopted the .32 acp over the .380 because the .380 bounced off of a helmet while the .32 acp penetrated it.
Pistolero Magazine in the 1980’s shot live domestic farm hogs in Mexico whose autonomy is astonishingly similar to Human autonomy (the only differences being pigs are better behaved) and found zero difference in killing power when using the .38 Special,, .357 Mag, 9×19, and 45 Acp. Pistolero said the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9mm but none of the calibers was superior over the other calibers.
Most of Africa’s big game was not exterminated by Ivory Hunters using monster double barrel rifles in .577 or .600 Nitro express but were killed off both by poor white farmers using surplus military rifles in 6.5, 7mm , 8mm and .303 British and Black Game Wardens being issued these same weapons proving that it was not caliber size but bullet placement and penetration that was most important.
Agnes Herbert,perhaps the most famous of women hunters back in her day said she saw zero difference in killing power when dispatching big dangerous wild game when comparing her 6.5 Mannlicher caliber rifle to her big double barrel .450 express. Agnes hunted dangerous big game all over the world and shot more big game than 1000 hunters shoot today in a lifetime.
The author does a great job explaining the versatility of the Seecamp! Great read!
@Rob, there is no reason to disparage armed forces that use calibers other than the .45. And statistically, not all calibers perform the same. The US Army went to the .45 ACP because the 38. LC was underperforming and US GI’s were dying as a result. As far as the 9, it is not my preference, but I had friends some 50 years ago who were British Royal Marines, and I would put them against just about any military unit anywhere. They carried 9’s.
Shot placement does count; in that you are correct, but you are wrong; NOT all calibers are lethal. What kills people from a GSW is loss of blood or neuro damage. The brain only needs two things, oxygen and glucose, to survive, and blood is the delivery mechanism for those two things. If it is deprived of either of those for any extended period of time, death is a strong possibility. I have seen many people shot in center of mass with smaller calibers who were saved by good EMS and ER personnel. Quite a few of those patients killed their shooter because there was not enough energy to provide real stopping power. Calibers smaller than 9 mm have less energy which translates to less internal damage even if major organs or vessels are hit. When someone is shot, even if the heart is punctured, they can survive with prompt medical intervention. I have seen that more times than I can count, as an ER nurse and as an Army Medic. I have seen heart shot patients who were saved.
But the rub that very few get is that shooters in their first-time live fire conflict go through what is known as Fight or Flight. It is something over which NO ONE has control. I have spoken about it many times in various threads on The Shooter’s Log. Just one of the challenges is visual changes make acquiring the sights and target nigh unto impossible and that affects shot placement. Those who have not been there cannot know the depth of these changes. Drawing a weapon on another person changes one’s world more than being on the receiving end of incoming fire. I have done both. I have known many who later admitted that they were not adequately prepared for what they went through. I am talking GI’s and cops who went through this.
Reality in a firefight sucks, especially when one discovers nature does not make exceptions for them. There were many GI’s who “knew” they were different and not subject to the same rules of nature that the rest of us were. Too many of them went home in a box covered with a flag. I have heard people say they will be different because they have been under other stressful situations. They are wrong. Not all stress is the same and it takes several times going through this type of Fight or Flight to become inured to the effects of it. Then one can actually acquire the sights and the target with some precision, allowing for better shot placement.
Here we go again! The eternal caliber fight. They all are lethal. What counts is shot PLACEMENT! Statistically all calibers perform about the same. Me, I love .45 A.C.P.. The military used it for over 100 years. In my opinion, the military went to the 9mm was because the new bread of soldiers couldn’t handle the recoil of the M1911A and maybe the round capacity. Same reason the FBI went to the 9mm, the pussies couldn’t handle firing the weapon effectively.
I’ve carried one of my two Seecamps ( .32 & .380) for over 35 years. I’ve carried it as a third back-up in uniform and as a back-up to my 1911 as a detective. I also carried it as my sole firearm working undercover. I also carried it as a supervisor in a suit & tie civilian supervisory job. I’ve carried it in a pair of swim trunks because as Leroy Thompson remarked when he was a bodyguard it’s the only firearm that can survive such carry and still be relied on.(BTW if you’re going into the water fill the mussel with a plug of some sort)
@Budgie: you made a statement about criticism of the .32 ACP as if it is unwarranted. You also state you have found it to be satisfactory. My question is how many people have you seen who were actually shot with a .32, let alone actually being stopped from their activity? I am talking about someone actually being ventilated, perforated by a bullet, with real bleeding, from the .32 round and not just deterred by the sight of a weapon. I have never seen a case where the .32 was used to defend the life of the shooter with a satisfactory outcome.
In more than 30 years of working in a number of metro ERs, I have seen at least a couple of dozen patients who were shot with the .32. One of our docs kept a list of all the calibers that failed the shooter and should not be used in a self-defense situation. The .32 ACP was on that list because we saved a bunch of guys shot with a .32 (and other calibers) so they could stand trial for homicide (they killed the shooter). Very few of those shootees were stopped from their activities and more than half were incensed enough at their shooter that they killed them. We saw the shootees in our ER and, more often than not, saved their miserable @$$ so they could go to prison for the rest of their life. Their shooter got a nice (?) funeral out of the deal. The information on the shooter was given to us by the local cops. None of the cops I ever knew believed the .32 was the least bit efficacious, but more dangerous to the shooter than the shootee.
Let’s look at the numbers for the .32 ACP and compare them to a colossal failure for the US military, the .38 LC. The .38 LC had muzzle energy of 198 ft/lbs from a 150-gr slug and did not have enough energy to qualify as having stopping power according to the US Army. It failed to stop innumerable bad guys in combat and got a lot of American GI’s killed. That failure led to the creation of the .45 ACP.
Let’s look at the .32 ACP Hornady round which weighs in at 60-gr and has only 133 ft/lbs of energy. The Winchester Silvertip weighs the same but only has 125 ft/lbs of energy. Speer Gold Dot also weighs 60-gr but shows even less at 123 ft/lbs of energy on the scale. The .38 LC was far superior to the .32, but it was still a colossal failure as a man stopper per the US Army. As an aside, I spent some time overseas in the Army as a medic some 50 years ago. I have seen ammo that really does qualify as having stopping power.
I have seen more GSW patients than anyone I know. So, again, I would ask, how many real-world cases have you seen where someone was shot with a .32 (or any caliber for that matter) who was stopped from the commission of an act of violence. I have seen NO ONE who was deterred after being shot with a .32, but I have seen dozens who killed or severely injured the shooter of that .32. So, go ahead, pay no mind to the real-life experiences of those who have seen that round result in the death of those who trusted in it to protect them (and died holding on to that belief.)
The only thing hard to beat in this kind of situation is surviving it. Anything else if a FAIL.
I wish I hadn’t read this. Now I NEED a Seecamp .32 to augment/replace my trusty NAA mini revolver.
Ed. I’m sure you’ll get a fufusillade of criticism over the ineffectiveness of the .32 ACP cartridge from the usual cadre, but pay no mind.
Personally I find it to be quite satisfactory with proper shot placement and the Seacamp is an excellent “Platform” to launch it through.
The Original (Aluminum Jacketed) Winchester “Silvertip” and current Speer “Gold Dot” both expand impressively with sufficient velocity to produce adequate Stopping Power.
Bigger is Better many will argue, but for Deep Concealment and ease of use the Seacamp is hard to beat.