News

Will the U.S. Army Make the Switch to Hollow Point Ammunition?

It is still early and unofficial as far as the Shooter’s Log has been able to confirm, but it looks like the U.S Army is set to make a huge change with some pretty serious implications when it adopts hollow point ammunition. This is not completely unexpected or unheard of. Certain military police units have previously been reported as carrying hollow point ammunition as well as some use by snipers. Special operations units in Afghanistan have also reportedly used hollow point ammunition in the past, but the military make it the new combat cartridge?

According to ATK, “the HST hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.”
According to ATK, “the HST hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.”
The announcement came without warning during the U.S. Army’s Industry Day. Industry Day was held at the Army’s Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey with the intention of advancing the Army’s search for a replacement of the M9 with a new Modular Handgun System (MHS). During an Industry Day presentation, a military lawyer pointed out that the United States was not a signatory to Hague Conventions that outlawed “dum-dum” ammunition.

Expanding bullets were given the name dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay. There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft point and hollow point designs.

Hollow point ammunition offers multiple advantages to the military. Jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammunition offers more energy transference, increasing knockdown power. As the JHP opens and transfers its energy, it also slows and decreases penetration. There is little evidence to deny the fact that modern combat operations are increasingly conducted in urban environments populated with noncombatant civilians. Reducing the chance of causing an over-penetration injury to a noncombatant would be a significant plus for the Army.

As a cost saving measure, the Army would still use full metal jacket (FMJ) ball ammunition for training and reserve the JHP ammunition for deployed units. This would bring the Army (and potentially other branches of the military) closer to being inline with state and federal law enforcement agencies. However, it serves a greater purpose as well. The specifications for the new MHS do not have an upper or lower caliber limit. However, there is a requirement that the new cartridge must outperform the M882 NATO 9mm 124-grain FMJ ammunition by at least 10%.

The top three contenders would have to be 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The MHS contract stipulates the 10% additional performance over the M882, which would lend an advantage to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Of course, after significant testing, the FBI recently abandoned the .40 S&W in favor of the 9mm. With the new option of using hollow point ammunition, it looks as though the 9mm may be the favorite, but the .45 ACP has a rich history. However, the Army just announced significant troop reductions and the separation of thousands of civilians to meet new budget constraints. I cannot see how the Army could justify the extra cost associated with the .45 ACP compared to the 9mm given the financial constraints caused by sequestration.

Which caliber do you think the new modular handgun system will be chamber for? Which caliber and self-defense round do you carry and why? Share your thoughts and experiences in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (255)

  1. Times have changed. With the type of gear that soldiers wear today and will wear in the future, I’m not sure hollow points will be the way to go. Bulletproof vests are easier penetrated by FMJ, specifically 9mm. If they are wearing ceramic plates, they won’t even penetrate. The purpose of FMJ is that firing into a group of soldiers not wearing vests is that it will penetrate and possibly exit and get the person standing behind. This creates 2 injuries, causing a tie up for people trying to remove and save them, and remove to a medevac. In law enforcement, the purpose is to incapacitate immediately with the round not overpenetrating to hit an innocent bystander. This is what each round is intended to do. The Coast Guard carries both. Their purpose is.both military and civilian, the only branch with such a purpose. They use FMJ when doing out side of US waters on foreign national shipping or overseas. When doing smallboat boardings or law enforcement duties inside US ports they use hollowpoints. It prevents rounds from overpenetrating and riccocheting in the And in the smaller spaces of a small boat. And they switched over to .40 cal. So each has a science and a purpose.

  2. How many infantrymen in WWI and WWII packed a 45 1911, you would think by comments here they were issued to every grunt no matter the service, but truth was they were mainly issued to REMF’s, officers and senior NCO’s .TANK GUNNYS HAD THEM AND VERY FEW PILOTS IN WWI.
    I wasn’t at Bragg when some ealy test done but a lifer friends was,when 9mm versus 45, reason being Nato 9 was far hotter than US and the euros had armor piercing clear back in WWI. This was about 10 years before new SS ballistic nylon SS Panzer infantry Helmets issued to US.
    The 45 would not penetrate steel pots but 9mm would, Israelis were first to note and it was their kevlar and various steel pots used for targets.
    45 did not penetrate any except some WWI Frech pots.
    This was with standard 9mm nato that penetrated all but Israeli’s test
    kevlar or ballistic nylon..
    flunky watching and replacing pots on stakes but some of that 9 armo steel core and jacket almost destroyed an officers pristine 1915 Lugar and late war Walther and passed through both sides of helmets
    Netherlands always ahead as to armor piercin rounds, still are.
    There were other weapons of many nations but all Ihe said he did was”
    Good Shooting Sir” , even when he feard for people way beyond the berms, sweat and make sure they had ashtrays and cold water.
    I do not believe this was official military test but more Green Berets special weapons boys doing demos for brass..
    This goes go to show military was many years of looking before deciding
    on 9.

  3. 1. Isn’t there an article in the Geneva Convention against the use of hollow point bullets?
    2. Why doesn’t the Gov’t switch back to the well known man stopping .45 ACP and put an end to the hoop-la?

    1. 1. No. There is nothing in the Geneva Convention about ammo or weapons. It is about the treatment of prisoners and civilians. Ammo was discussed in the Hague Accord in 1898. The US didn’t sign it. At least not then. Most pots here say the US never signed it, but honor it as long as the enemy does. Some have posted here that the US agreed to comply with the Hague Accord in 1907.

      2. The government went to the 9mm because of the availability of ammo. Availability of ammo in the gun, in their pack, and around the troops in case of logistics problems. No other country uses the .45acp so a serviceman’s only source of ammo would be his own supply line.

      3. This has all been posted here several times. You just have to read a few before you post.

  4. You are mostly correct. The U.S. did sign the Hague Convention IV of 1907 art. 23 (e). “It is especially forbidden to employ arms, Projectiles, or material calculated to cause unecessary suffering.” Declaration IV3 concerning expanding bullets ” The contracting parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which Expand or Flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.” Nobody signed. The status of this declaration has been so strictly adhered to that it has assumed “Status of Customary Law.” That means.the law is “Understood” by all. The closest to breaking it is the U.S. in 1985 when our snipers switched from 7.62 x 51 173 grained FMJ Boat tail to 7.62 Match King open tip Boat tail 168 grain and 175 grain after the Army and Navy JAG decided it was used for long distance flight, not for bodily damages. The same courts also allowed the Navy Seals to use 230SXT for use in the mk23 mod.0 only for taking out terrorists. (SXT is not legally sold in the U.S.)

    1. No we did not sign the hague in 1907 nor was Part IV3 ever ratified by congress. We used full metal jackets basically out of pear pressure. They did not shoot at us with hollw point and we would not use them on them. But times have changed and the dynamics of warfare have changed. So basically for over a 100 years we have held the right to use hollow points if we want too.

    2. And where did you get the SXT is not legal in the U.S. There is NO law prohibiting the ammo. I have a crap load of it. The original black talon.
      Not to mention The ranger SXT is the exact bullet without the lubalox coating,The stuff that made the bullet black..
      Please show me a LAW that makes ownership or sale of the Black talon,SXT, illegal.

  5. The U.S. did sign the Hague Accord of 1907 on the hollow point ammunition. At that time they were the only country that had mastered the hollow point. I believe if you read the accord you will find the U.S. was the only country that signed it. I believe they just don’t care about it. Hollow point just doesn’t penetrate like military ball does through bulletproof or military vests. Why not shoot through 2 or 3 guys at once? All sorts of advantages. The Coast Guard switched from 9mm Berettas to .40 cal Sigg 229R-Daks.
    When they are in CONUS they use .40 hollow pts
    When boarding foreign national ships, out of country like Middle east they use .40 military ball ammo. DOD forces ( does nt include Coast Guard), are not allowed to fight in the U.S. (INCONUS) are required to use military ball. Originally Special forces were required to use military ball,so stuck to this law the only thing they could do was crank more powder in. They had 9mm velocities coming out of the Berettas at 1700 to 1900 fps. That’s why so many Berettas broke their slides. Their was no major breaking problems in the rest of the military. In the C.G I taught on the Ber. from 87 to 05 with 0 breakdowns. That was 20 tp 60 guys every month,about 150 rds per person every month for 20 years. The only problem we had was in 2003, and i had about 7 guns break the lugs on the barrels, all at about the same time. That was.the barrels, not the slides or the lower halfs. There has never been any problem with the Beretta. And the Coast Guard was using the same guns on land and on Saltwater.

  6. It seems kind of strange to have been lectured all these years about the Law of Land Warfare, only to find out the USA did not sign the Hague Conventions or the Geneva Accords. At least the parts that have to do with ball ammunition versus hollow points. It seems like all those JAG officers were pretty adamant about what the law was supposed to mean. Of course, I’ve never seen a lawyer walk point, so…

    I was also told that the DoD switched to the 9mm for supply and logistics reasons. The US is a member of NATO, and all the other members use the 9mm for pistol and submachinegun ammunition. All the other nations converted over to the 5.56mm round for individual infantry weapons. For an American in a firefight, being able to use ammunition supplied by the Germans or the French or the British makes sense and could possibly save lives.

    I would leave the debate over the 9mm versus 40 S&W versus 45 ACP to those better qualified to weigh in. But commonality in the supply chain seems to make sense to me, a retired infantry soldier and a taxpayer.

    I would not want to start a debate over expediency versus force protection, but running out of ammunition is a nightmare all of us that have been there can share. If a truck from another NATO country pulls up and starts kicking out crates of ammo, it would be good to know that it will work in our weapons.

    Just my two cents.

    Rock

  7. HEY GUYS, WHEN YOU’RE DEAD, YOU’RE DEAD. SOFT POINT, HOLLOW POINT OR FMJ. REMEMBER PRES. RONNIE NEARLY DIED FROM A LITTLE 40 GRAIN 22.

  8. Hey stupid, when they taught military ethics in basic, that is exactly what it was called. And since it is a treaty ratified by the Senate, it has the force of law moron.

    1. I noticed years ago, and it continues to be proven out that the less capable a person is of making an intelligent argument, the more they resort to insults and name calling. You have only to read a few posts in this blog to know you are wrong. There are many comments made here, by people much more intelligent than you or I, that clearly explain that the restriction on expanding ammunition was a clause in the Hague Accord. It was never signed by any representative of the US. It was never ratified by the senate or any other branch of the legislature, and it is not nor does it have the force of law. It has been our militaries policy for nearly a century(that’s means 100yrs.), but not law. The military is now considering changing that policy. Their reasons are both humanitarian and strategical. What they will do is still undecided. As I have previously stated, It is better to stand quietly and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove they are right.

  9. The Hague Accords do not specificly mandate fmj, what they did mention was to outlaw projectiles that expanded within the body.
    For you who “pour lead” youknow that hard cast compounds penetrate better othan most commercial hp and because of truncated cones and wadcutter designs cause huge cavity wounds.
    In 1800’s Swiss and Germanswere messing with jacketed and even solid metal but it was France that come up with proper designs that improved therounds ballistic potentials by pointted boat tail bullets of soft steel or lead witha jacket.
    One of the major gripes about the old soft lead bullets was thT they disintigrated into shreads and even if wounded survived they c.e down with vRying degreesof lead poisoning.
    The euros were scientific and fought to gain US who did not and still does not give a flyn f how we kill or how our .ilitary is treTed aaftrr their usefullness is over. A BRAIN DEAD LIFER SUFFERING FROM LOW INTEL CULD NOT AFFORD TO LOSE ny of his facultys due to old lead wounds but American lives have always been cheap, we like it that way as we are real men.
    Hornadys new forms of Hp ( specificly the ftx rounds) may well be the way to go.:as are a few solid coppers that retain 99+%of bullet without dhedding fragme ts.
    With lead lodged in joints especially one will find lead poison terminal eve after accumulating to criticality after 50 years.
    As to correct forum of course not we want macho flag waving only, we don’ t need no fn reasons told us of why we war, President Bush said he had gotten God on our side and 200 million gang bangers mounted up while singing the Battle Hymn in and Dixiel in unison. WEe geocided a nation that had never nor ever had any ill will towards us.
    The wars of occupation of Afghanistan Iraq and Libya were criminal and now in order to finish what we began we must for ge erTions to come kill ever more.
    Our political and military leaders are real good at killing and making money for corporate and political coffers but they have fn bungled every military undertaking since end lf WWII and only by genocide as we did to Iraq can we now even pretend we won.
    Trouble is brutality no matter the source seeks a balance that neither side can attain. The cause had no logic and the consequences have none either they like the war we wanted exist.
    A war that has now grown so fn big we have more Nations inCombat thatn in either WWI &WWII.
    THANKS TOTHEM WE NOW HAVE WHAT FOR 200 YEARS WHAT NO OTHER SOVEREIGN NATION COULD ACCOMPLISH, WENOW HAVE
    WAR UPON OUR HOMELAND STREETS AND PEOPLES LIVES.
    THANKS A FN LOT AND PASS THE AMMO CAN.

    1. Hide Behind is a fitting screen name for you. Won’t you go learn English before you post all this Islamic BS. Your are so full of it. The three countries you mentioned have hated and had ill will towards us for decades, if not centuries. And it is all because of one thing. We are friends with Israel. Ishmael tried to kill his Isaac, his little brother, and Abraham sent him and his mother away for it. Every since the Muslims have been trying to kill the Jews and anyone who befriends them. As for war on our streets, we still don’t have war here. We have terrorism. terrorists are not warriors. They are cowards who aren’t brave enough to take on a nations trained fighters. Instead they make surprise attacks on unarmed civilians. Yes civilians have died in war but it’s because of attacks on military targets that contain civilians such as factories, dams, and power plants. Terrorists don’t attack military targets because they are defended. They attack targets that kill civilians and get them attention because it makes them feel brave, even though they aren’t. They are no different than the drunk in the bar who waits till the guy with the cute girl is not looking and sucker punches him and brags about whipping his @$$.

  10. There’s not a proper forum for the comment I want to make, but this one is close enough.

    Isn’t it pathetic that 4 US Marines were not even allowed to carry a gun while on the job, and they were gunned down like sheep in a pen? Who decided this, that soldiers in recruiting offices cannot carry guns? They are representing the ARMED forces, and their offices are targets, and they are UNARMED!!!! How sad is that? What has become of our country? Is this just more Obamanation?

    Donald Trump may be saying some rough things in the media, but maybe we need a strong leader like this to make America strong again. I don’t think Donald Trump would let US Marines be unarmed like this. I don’t usually watch the national news channels, but I’m going to keep my eye on Fox News and see what (if anything) the people running for President are saying about the massacre in Tennessee.

  11. Your source has his head up his ass. For anything besides security stateside, the use of anything but FMJ ammunition is strictly prohibited by the Laws of Land Warfare.

    1. John, I don’t know where your head is, but your source is mislead. There are know Laws of Land Warfare. Like all international law it is really just an agreement or contract between nations. That is just a phrase used by trainers to emphasize the point to recruits. The bad part is, you just have to read a few posts to know the facts. The Hague Accord forbid the use of expanding bullets in warfare. The US did not sign the Hague Accord. It has abided by it’s articles when in battle with other nations who abide by it’s articles.

  12. I am biased towards 9mm for several reasons:
    My wife and I both compete in monthly IDPA matches and like the lower recoil and reloading cost of 9mm.
    We both have CCP and can carry smaller single stack weapons in 9mm.
    We have both learned that if you practice to shoot accurately, then you do not need the extra knock-down power of ,40 or ,45 cal.
    We both agree that 9mm is the perfect caliber for both practice and self defense. Not many spouses can agree on that many things!

  13. Sorry about this late comment,but here goes.Didnt any of you guys see a brave Jordanian pilot get burned to death inside of a cage? If there is a round that goes in an enemies ear a comes out his ass well then bring it on. Those ISIS animals will rape our women soldiers to death and torture our guys to death. what do I care about Rules of War when my enemy decapitates an 8 yearold girl.They need to die or they will murder us.Get it?

  14. There has been numerous complaints from troops that the 5.56 caliber lacks knock down power.I think that using JHP ammo is a reasonably cost effective solution.

  15. Uh, Bob….paper targets don’t shoot back, nor bowling pins or golfballs. What at are you betting your life on? Maybe that your occasionally jamming .45’s don’t explode on you?

  16. .45. 9mm. Both effective in making us murders of children’s father’s whos kids are hungery. Making widower of husband’s and bastards dead dads. The owners of the military industrial complex. These words spoken here is music to there ears or money? Our rights are systematicaly becoming less effective by the very power we give to our government to protect us. How is this working for us. .45 or 9mm

  17. Look at other possibilities. What if it’s intentions are to be used against the American public. So be it? A good advantage? The US military is the best.period. but the way things are happening with lack of jobs due to out souring over seas. The Eminence of civil unrest and marshal law to take anyone of us without due peocess. Well you get the picture.

  18. The military will very likely stay with the 9mm and go Hollow Point.
    I on the other hand , am old school , when possible will carry a .45 !

  19. I find this idea extremely plausible to when it comes to the National Guard carrying live rounds. Well, just not when it comes to Obama’s sons in Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. We wouldn’t want rioters, looters, and domestic terrorists hurt now would we?

    1. That’s what I thought too. As a matter of fact, that’s what we were taught in the Navy’s GM “A” school at Great Lakes, IL when I served back in 1986-91. It’s possible that could have changed since then, but I never heard about it.

    1. Can you or anyone else please direct me to where I could find the specs on how many layers of tin foil it takes to stop hollowpoint round? I don’t think my hat is thick enough yet.

  20. Ok, just my thoughts here, so don’t jump down my throat for them. I didn’t serve in the military, so I couldn’t say what types of weaponry would be best. My thoughts are on the use of HP and/or JHP ammunition. And I would have to say my thoughts are mixed on the topic. In most current situations our troops find themselves in, it would seem that this type of ammo would be preferable. They face non military personnel, at least most of whom are not going to be wearing any type of body armor. They’re facing them in areas that increase the risk to nearby innocents due to over penetration. On top of that, many of them are more than happy to die, or leave their companions to die if wounded, believing they’ll be rewarded for their sacrifice. So, they’re not going to be tied up trying to help them. So, they should probably be taken down in as effective a manner as possible, decreasing the risk to our own troops.
    However, under war conditions with another country or countries, such as in WW1 & 2, it’s a whole different thing. For one, we will want our troops, injured or captured, to be treated well. Just as our opponents will expect of us. And besides that, in a modern war, any major country’s troops will likely be wearing armor.
    From what I’ve read, it would seem the the US is not technically bound not to use HP ammo, even though it’s been basically a given that we’ll abided by the various treaties and conventions. I have a difficult time with the thought of NOT using the most effective ammunition against an enemy who will torture and mutilate anyone they feel doesn’t conform to their views. Short of using chemicals, biologics, or nuclear weapons of course. But as far as basic ballistic weapons, non explosive, but using basic physics to advantage… If the situation calls for it, then it should be considered. The world was a much different place when those rules were created, and there should probably be some changes. Our current enemies will use whatever means they can manage to kill, without regard. If we can remove their threat, while simultaneously decreasing the risk to nearby non combatants, it just seems logical to me. But, as I said, I didn’t serve, and my brother who did doesn’t talk about his time in Iraq, so I’m really only seeing my own personal logic, which may not fit with the reality of combat. But having both types of ammunition available would seem appropriate to me.

  21. The 45 cal. FMJ is going to leave a 1/2″ hole in whatever it hits. The two 1911 pistols I own have both jammed on rare occasions using hollow points. They NEVER fail using 230 grain FMJ. What would you prefer to bet your life on?

  22. This is the dumbest thing I’ve read this week. Hollow point doesn’t work on armored targets, so Using it in combat is stupid. It is crazy expensive compared to ball ammo and the military is facing budget cuts. the political backlash for abandoning the Hague Conventions (Geneva had nothing to do with ammo) would be catastrophic to our efforts in the middle east. In fact, the only logical reason for the military to switch to using JHP is if it planned on tuning its guns on the US citizenry.

    1. Wait…what???

      Here’s a news flash for you Cameron, M882 NATO 9mm 124-grain FMJ ammunition doesn’t work on armored targets either. You do realize that essentially ALL body armor is designed to stop effectively ALL types of handgun ammunition. Further, the types of body armor worn by combat troops is typically designed to stop much higher velocity rifle cartridges as well. It won’t matter one Hill O’ Beans weather your side arm is firing HP or FMJ if your target is wearing armor.

      Also…

      As the author points out in the article, with the vast majority of combat missions taking place in urban areas, around civilian non-combatants, a hollow point round has far less chance of overpenetration which helps limit the chances of civilian casualties.

    1. Sorry Kurt. If you continue to read more posts you will see I tend to get to wordy. Most of mine are pretty long. In this case I just got tired of hearing the same misinformation over and over again. To many people like Cairo are commenting on a subject they nothing about. If they would just read a few posts they would see where other people tried to comment with the same misinformation and had to be corrected. My dad use to say it is better to keep you mouth closed and let people think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and confirm their suspensions.

  23. If my nations Alphabet internal security forces under Homeland Security believes they need hollow points to protect themselves against some future internal (american) terrorist then why are we americans not respected as much as foreign combatants?
    Then again our WAR ON TERROR DRUGS AND FOREIGN FEMALE BASHERS is not war as in Hague Nuremburg or Geneva Accords, No we are an expanding Empire that beings our own “Do As We Say, not”As We Do” rules and regulations to nations we oversee.
    We fight no Sovereign Powers that can have any chance of defending themselves from our economic and military power
    The World Bodies now take orders from a combination of economic and political factions backed by US military prowess.
    In order to retain our position as worlds top guns we need the best most destructive weaponry Vailable to us while denying it to any but our most loyal and subservient allies.
    As to one persons worry about foreign nationals replacing US native born in military forget it it is a fact of life and extends even into officer corps.
    At Bush Wars upon Iraq there were over 20,000 non citizens in Navy and Marines alone and more than double that in Army.
    That they were mandated into citizenship is no worry as they come from nations where crime and corruption are as accepted as is crime within this nation.
    Its all about the bucks and the pay is good no matter what private or national mercenary forces.
    What we began by constant war will soon find outlets within US borders wether real or false flags the powers need full spectrum control and if it takes hollow points to enforce it here or elsewhere it has not one damn thing to doi with Patriotism.
    So mentaly masturbate over what you have no control over as your opinions are but sounding shots.

  24. The MHS will probably be chambered for the .9mm Caliber round as the armed forces is already trained and geared to use this ammunition. It is suited for both combat and garrision (on base or urban) applications. One could easily argue when it comes to knock down and terminal damage to the aggressor, the .45 Caliber round is the best option. It had been a staple of U.S. firearms for decades and is seemingly making a come back in some branches and special units of the armed forces. But, in these days of bedgetary restrictions, it could become cost prohibitive. For decades, the Air Forces carried .38 Cailber weapons such as the S&W Combat Masterpiece for Security Police (I carried this combat proven reliable firearm until the change over to the Beretta M-9) and a snub nosed version for aircrew members. For that era and the time, it was sufficient enough to do the job it was designed for. That was before ballistic vests, helmets and other armor wear applications were brought into the mix. As for myself, I presently carry Federal Guard Dog ammunition chambered for the .40 Caliber round carried in a S&W M&P Shield. I carry this particular Caliber and round for its proven stopping power to eliminate the threat. On occasion, depending on clothing options, I carry a Bersa Thunder .380 Combat pistol with the Invictor (projectile looks like the tip of a drill bit head) round. A very effective round for self-defense use.

  25. The .45 was developed and well served in many actions and for many years. It would still provide the best service to our military and LE. The 1911 is not political correct – but is “the pistol.”

  26. While they report reduction in troop numbers sir, under the table they are adding illegal aliens to replace the troops the discharge, that is not a reduction it is a no doubt in my mind a transference of power to an uninformed person that has no vested interest in this country or loyalty, our military is being transformed into a blindly following no questions asked gang of thugs. Americans are being edged out so that mindless illegals will do the bidding of those in charge including firing on American citizens without compunction.

    1. Oh fer cryinout loud. Any evidence, other than that email from your crazy uncle? Didn’t think so.

    2. So what you’re saying…is you have absolutely no reason to believe this is happening. Absolutely nothing to indicate there are plans to do this or that it’s underway and absolutely nothing to show anyone has the intention of doing so but because it is within the realm of possibility (which is to say ONLY that all the constituent parts of it are in fact real things) anyone who doesn’t believe the conspiracy has their head up their ass?

      Perhaps you should reconsider what it means to have one’s head up their @$$? Meanwhile, while you’re using an enema as mouthwash the rest of will be worrying about things happening in the real world.

      Just remember, just because you saw it on the internet…doesn’t make it true…

  27. One question — how are we going to get around the Geneva Convention that outlaws the use of dum-dums & expanding ammo

    1. The Geneva Convention didn’t outlaw dum-dums, that is a misconception, it was the Hague convention(s). According to the above article the US was not a signatory to those portions of the Hague Conventions.

    2. And yet, for 20 years I have been required to take an annual Law of Armed Conflict refresher which clearly states that hollow-point/dum dum rounds are prohibited. Granted, LOAC is less “law” and more “custom”, but our adherence to it is what sets us apart from our enemies…it is our recognition that the purpose of warfare is to END the war as quickly and humanely as possible. To that end, the purpose of “ball” ammo is to remove an enemy combatant from the battlefield, not (believe it or not) to inflict massive wounds beyond the reasonable help of medicine.

      Having no inside knowledge, I’m personally in the camp of believing this to be another Internet rumor. Someone tell me that the British, Germans, and French are moving to hollow point ammo, and I’ll give this more credence.

    3. Also, the Hague only applies to uniformed soldiers in war.

      As the other comment notes, we never actually ratified the accord and precisely the same reason our Federal LEO’s are able to use HP ammo is because it’s not used against uniformed soldiers involved in war between states.

      We could use it in Afghanistan as it is. The main reason I suspect we don’t (and I’ve always wondered if some Special Forces units in fact do, maybe counter-terrorism teams) is likely concern over international condemnation.

  28. Some sniper ammo is of “open tip” design — not so much a hollow-point as simply having an empty opening in the front end of the jacket so as to move the bullet’s center of mass further back. Moving the bullet’s center of mass back improves long range accuracy — and that’s the reason for the so-called “hollow-point” ammo currently in use. True hollow-point ammo designed to expand upon impact would certainly improve combat efficiency, but we’d better be prepared to get a lot of flak from around the world…

    1. 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP ……. these are “long range” that would benefit from “open tip” design?

  29. Para ordinance makes a 14 shot magazine .45 that is basically a 1911 with a fat grip and it holds 14+1, not bad for a .45. The reason the FBI is going back to the 9MM is there isn’t much of a difference between the two energy wise. Anyone who remembers the 1986 Miami shootout which killed and wounded a bunch of Feds even though that had shot the bad guys with their 9MMs know why they moved away from the 9MM. The problem the feds then had was they were hiring a bunch of female agents and the girls and the wimpier guys couldn’t handle the 10MM recoil so the feds down loaded the 10mm to the FBI lite load, which is similar to the 9mm. Foolishly believing it would somehow work better than the round the had abandoned, with similar ballistics. The 10MM, a MUCH more powerful cartridge was the answer they were looking for but they blew it to make sure they were more Politically Correct. So P.C. trumped agent safety. AS far as the military goes an up loaded .45 caliber hollow point round in a modern .45 cal pistol would work fine, maybe even the .45 Super pushing the 230gr JHP at 1100 fps instead of 850 fps would add a tremendous amount of energy to the round, it would be over 600 ft/lbs. not a bad man stopper.

    1. With a barrel change and a slightly heavier spring they could even convert the old .45s to .45 Super. The difference in energy between the two would be significant the .45 230gr round at 850 gives you about 369 ft/lbs of energy, where as the .45 Super 230gr JHP at 1100 fps gives you about 618 ft/lbs of energy. Not a bad punch.

    2. John it is true that the FBI reduced the load on the 10mm because of the recoil, but it had nothing to do with girls or wimpy guys. If you believe such people were a problem in the FBI then get your facts straight and present an intelligent argument. The problem the FBI had with the 10mm was that the guns couldn’t handle the recoil. Both Colt and S&W submitted pistols to the FBI for there study of the 10mm. Both made fine guns for the civilian use, but the FBI had to keep sending them back for repair. I guess it was the difference between 1000rnds/day and a box a month. Any way it was the equipment, not the people that couldn’t handle the recoil. Also recoil is a valid concern for a defensive or offensive weapon. Even if the shooter doesn’t object to the recoil they have to be prepared for a quick second shot. I’m 6’3″ and 300lbs. I can shoot a 500 S&W, but I wouldn’t carry one. Every officer is not Dirty Harry and the bad guys don’t have a director telling them when they can shoot back. If the bad guy is trying to shoot you when you pull the trigger the first time you don’t to have to recover from severe recoil before you fire the second shot. Yeah I know we like to think the first shot is what counts, but in a combat situation, civilian or military, it is a rare bird that can …… firm grip .. sight alignment .. squeeze .. while being shot at. Even if they can, there might be two bad guys. Or more. Speaking of Dirty Harry, I know there is the seen about the “.44magnum blowing your head clean off”, but there is another movie, where he explains to a rooky cop that he carries the .44magnum because he likes the weight but uses .44specials because in the magnum they have less recoil than the .357. Even Dirty Harry knew recoil was a factor in a self defense gun. You are right that the FBI kept reducing the load of the 10 until they got a load liked, but it was still well above the ballistics of the 9mm. Once they arrived at a load that had both the ballistics and recoil they wanted they realized they didn’t need the case capacity of the 10mm. So they worked with S&W to develop a cartridge that was shorter than the 10mm. This allowed them to reduce the grip of the firearm from front to rear and make it a little fatter which made room for a double stack mag. Now they had power, controllable recoil, and capacity. All they needed was a name for the new cartridge. They called it the .40 S&W.

    3. Thanks for that history, very interesting. Funny how a story that’s so logical and plausible can get turned into utter BS (“we had to get rid of the round because of the wimpy guys”) once it hits the Internet.

    4. Thanks Tim, I love shooting and cherish my firearms and only the truth will protect them. I try to keep it factual and accurate, but it is getting harder and harder on this post. So many commenters whose fingers aren’t attached to their brain. Inaccurate post are bad enough. Repeating what some else has already said is inevitable. But when so many people keep repeating so many incorrect things that have already been posted and corrected, it is just a waste of time and I am seriously considering unsubscribing. But thanks again for your kind words.

  30. The .45ACP JHP is the only way to go. As for the 1911 there are more modern designs that retain many of its desirable features while eliminating its flaws. It was a landmark pistol design in its day, but that day has come and gone. The basic design has been improved upon by several outstanding manufacturers providing greater capacity in some cases, plus improved reliability and life of the weapon. The HK45, or HK45C would be an excellent choice to carry in .45ACP and is being carried by some special units. They can also be had with threaded barrels for sound suppressors.

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