News

Will the U.S. Army Make the Switch to Hollow Point Ammunition?

It is still early and unofficial as far as the Shooter’s Log has been able to confirm, but it looks like the U.S Army is set to make a huge change with some pretty serious implications when it adopts hollow point ammunition. This is not completely unexpected or unheard of. Certain military police units have previously been reported as carrying hollow point ammunition as well as some use by snipers. Special operations units in Afghanistan have also reportedly used hollow point ammunition in the past, but the military make it the new combat cartridge?

According to ATK, “the HST hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.”
According to ATK, “the HST hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.”
The announcement came without warning during the U.S. Army’s Industry Day. Industry Day was held at the Army’s Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey with the intention of advancing the Army’s search for a replacement of the M9 with a new Modular Handgun System (MHS). During an Industry Day presentation, a military lawyer pointed out that the United States was not a signatory to Hague Conventions that outlawed “dum-dum” ammunition.

Expanding bullets were given the name dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay. There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft point and hollow point designs.

Hollow point ammunition offers multiple advantages to the military. Jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammunition offers more energy transference, increasing knockdown power. As the JHP opens and transfers its energy, it also slows and decreases penetration. There is little evidence to deny the fact that modern combat operations are increasingly conducted in urban environments populated with noncombatant civilians. Reducing the chance of causing an over-penetration injury to a noncombatant would be a significant plus for the Army.

As a cost saving measure, the Army would still use full metal jacket (FMJ) ball ammunition for training and reserve the JHP ammunition for deployed units. This would bring the Army (and potentially other branches of the military) closer to being inline with state and federal law enforcement agencies. However, it serves a greater purpose as well. The specifications for the new MHS do not have an upper or lower caliber limit. However, there is a requirement that the new cartridge must outperform the M882 NATO 9mm 124-grain FMJ ammunition by at least 10%.

The top three contenders would have to be 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The MHS contract stipulates the 10% additional performance over the M882, which would lend an advantage to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Of course, after significant testing, the FBI recently abandoned the .40 S&W in favor of the 9mm. With the new option of using hollow point ammunition, it looks as though the 9mm may be the favorite, but the .45 ACP has a rich history. However, the Army just announced significant troop reductions and the separation of thousands of civilians to meet new budget constraints. I cannot see how the Army could justify the extra cost associated with the .45 ACP compared to the 9mm given the financial constraints caused by sequestration.

Which caliber do you think the new modular handgun system will be chamber for? Which caliber and self-defense round do you carry and why? Share your thoughts and experiences in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (255)

  1. Times have changed. With the type of gear that soldiers wear today and will wear in the future, I’m not sure hollow points will be the way to go. Bulletproof vests are easier penetrated by FMJ, specifically 9mm. If they are wearing ceramic plates, they won’t even penetrate. The purpose of FMJ is that firing into a group of soldiers not wearing vests is that it will penetrate and possibly exit and get the person standing behind. This creates 2 injuries, causing a tie up for people trying to remove and save them, and remove to a medevac. In law enforcement, the purpose is to incapacitate immediately with the round not overpenetrating to hit an innocent bystander. This is what each round is intended to do. The Coast Guard carries both. Their purpose is.both military and civilian, the only branch with such a purpose. They use FMJ when doing out side of US waters on foreign national shipping or overseas. When doing smallboat boardings or law enforcement duties inside US ports they use hollowpoints. It prevents rounds from overpenetrating and riccocheting in the And in the smaller spaces of a small boat. And they switched over to .40 cal. So each has a science and a purpose.

  2. How many infantrymen in WWI and WWII packed a 45 1911, you would think by comments here they were issued to every grunt no matter the service, but truth was they were mainly issued to REMF’s, officers and senior NCO’s .TANK GUNNYS HAD THEM AND VERY FEW PILOTS IN WWI.
    I wasn’t at Bragg when some ealy test done but a lifer friends was,when 9mm versus 45, reason being Nato 9 was far hotter than US and the euros had armor piercing clear back in WWI. This was about 10 years before new SS ballistic nylon SS Panzer infantry Helmets issued to US.
    The 45 would not penetrate steel pots but 9mm would, Israelis were first to note and it was their kevlar and various steel pots used for targets.
    45 did not penetrate any except some WWI Frech pots.
    This was with standard 9mm nato that penetrated all but Israeli’s test
    kevlar or ballistic nylon..
    flunky watching and replacing pots on stakes but some of that 9 armo steel core and jacket almost destroyed an officers pristine 1915 Lugar and late war Walther and passed through both sides of helmets
    Netherlands always ahead as to armor piercin rounds, still are.
    There were other weapons of many nations but all Ihe said he did was”
    Good Shooting Sir” , even when he feard for people way beyond the berms, sweat and make sure they had ashtrays and cold water.
    I do not believe this was official military test but more Green Berets special weapons boys doing demos for brass..
    This goes go to show military was many years of looking before deciding
    on 9.

  3. 1. Isn’t there an article in the Geneva Convention against the use of hollow point bullets?
    2. Why doesn’t the Gov’t switch back to the well known man stopping .45 ACP and put an end to the hoop-la?

    1. 1. No. There is nothing in the Geneva Convention about ammo or weapons. It is about the treatment of prisoners and civilians. Ammo was discussed in the Hague Accord in 1898. The US didn’t sign it. At least not then. Most pots here say the US never signed it, but honor it as long as the enemy does. Some have posted here that the US agreed to comply with the Hague Accord in 1907.

      2. The government went to the 9mm because of the availability of ammo. Availability of ammo in the gun, in their pack, and around the troops in case of logistics problems. No other country uses the .45acp so a serviceman’s only source of ammo would be his own supply line.

      3. This has all been posted here several times. You just have to read a few before you post.

  4. You are mostly correct. The U.S. did sign the Hague Convention IV of 1907 art. 23 (e). “It is especially forbidden to employ arms, Projectiles, or material calculated to cause unecessary suffering.” Declaration IV3 concerning expanding bullets ” The contracting parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which Expand or Flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.” Nobody signed. The status of this declaration has been so strictly adhered to that it has assumed “Status of Customary Law.” That means.the law is “Understood” by all. The closest to breaking it is the U.S. in 1985 when our snipers switched from 7.62 x 51 173 grained FMJ Boat tail to 7.62 Match King open tip Boat tail 168 grain and 175 grain after the Army and Navy JAG decided it was used for long distance flight, not for bodily damages. The same courts also allowed the Navy Seals to use 230SXT for use in the mk23 mod.0 only for taking out terrorists. (SXT is not legally sold in the U.S.)

    1. No we did not sign the hague in 1907 nor was Part IV3 ever ratified by congress. We used full metal jackets basically out of pear pressure. They did not shoot at us with hollw point and we would not use them on them. But times have changed and the dynamics of warfare have changed. So basically for over a 100 years we have held the right to use hollow points if we want too.

    2. And where did you get the SXT is not legal in the U.S. There is NO law prohibiting the ammo. I have a crap load of it. The original black talon.
      Not to mention The ranger SXT is the exact bullet without the lubalox coating,The stuff that made the bullet black..
      Please show me a LAW that makes ownership or sale of the Black talon,SXT, illegal.

  5. The U.S. did sign the Hague Accord of 1907 on the hollow point ammunition. At that time they were the only country that had mastered the hollow point. I believe if you read the accord you will find the U.S. was the only country that signed it. I believe they just don’t care about it. Hollow point just doesn’t penetrate like military ball does through bulletproof or military vests. Why not shoot through 2 or 3 guys at once? All sorts of advantages. The Coast Guard switched from 9mm Berettas to .40 cal Sigg 229R-Daks.
    When they are in CONUS they use .40 hollow pts
    When boarding foreign national ships, out of country like Middle east they use .40 military ball ammo. DOD forces ( does nt include Coast Guard), are not allowed to fight in the U.S. (INCONUS) are required to use military ball. Originally Special forces were required to use military ball,so stuck to this law the only thing they could do was crank more powder in. They had 9mm velocities coming out of the Berettas at 1700 to 1900 fps. That’s why so many Berettas broke their slides. Their was no major breaking problems in the rest of the military. In the C.G I taught on the Ber. from 87 to 05 with 0 breakdowns. That was 20 tp 60 guys every month,about 150 rds per person every month for 20 years. The only problem we had was in 2003, and i had about 7 guns break the lugs on the barrels, all at about the same time. That was.the barrels, not the slides or the lower halfs. There has never been any problem with the Beretta. And the Coast Guard was using the same guns on land and on Saltwater.

  6. It seems kind of strange to have been lectured all these years about the Law of Land Warfare, only to find out the USA did not sign the Hague Conventions or the Geneva Accords. At least the parts that have to do with ball ammunition versus hollow points. It seems like all those JAG officers were pretty adamant about what the law was supposed to mean. Of course, I’ve never seen a lawyer walk point, so…

    I was also told that the DoD switched to the 9mm for supply and logistics reasons. The US is a member of NATO, and all the other members use the 9mm for pistol and submachinegun ammunition. All the other nations converted over to the 5.56mm round for individual infantry weapons. For an American in a firefight, being able to use ammunition supplied by the Germans or the French or the British makes sense and could possibly save lives.

    I would leave the debate over the 9mm versus 40 S&W versus 45 ACP to those better qualified to weigh in. But commonality in the supply chain seems to make sense to me, a retired infantry soldier and a taxpayer.

    I would not want to start a debate over expediency versus force protection, but running out of ammunition is a nightmare all of us that have been there can share. If a truck from another NATO country pulls up and starts kicking out crates of ammo, it would be good to know that it will work in our weapons.

    Just my two cents.

    Rock

  7. HEY GUYS, WHEN YOU’RE DEAD, YOU’RE DEAD. SOFT POINT, HOLLOW POINT OR FMJ. REMEMBER PRES. RONNIE NEARLY DIED FROM A LITTLE 40 GRAIN 22.

  8. Hey stupid, when they taught military ethics in basic, that is exactly what it was called. And since it is a treaty ratified by the Senate, it has the force of law moron.

    1. I noticed years ago, and it continues to be proven out that the less capable a person is of making an intelligent argument, the more they resort to insults and name calling. You have only to read a few posts in this blog to know you are wrong. There are many comments made here, by people much more intelligent than you or I, that clearly explain that the restriction on expanding ammunition was a clause in the Hague Accord. It was never signed by any representative of the US. It was never ratified by the senate or any other branch of the legislature, and it is not nor does it have the force of law. It has been our militaries policy for nearly a century(that’s means 100yrs.), but not law. The military is now considering changing that policy. Their reasons are both humanitarian and strategical. What they will do is still undecided. As I have previously stated, It is better to stand quietly and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove they are right.

  9. The Hague Accords do not specificly mandate fmj, what they did mention was to outlaw projectiles that expanded within the body.
    For you who “pour lead” youknow that hard cast compounds penetrate better othan most commercial hp and because of truncated cones and wadcutter designs cause huge cavity wounds.
    In 1800’s Swiss and Germanswere messing with jacketed and even solid metal but it was France that come up with proper designs that improved therounds ballistic potentials by pointted boat tail bullets of soft steel or lead witha jacket.
    One of the major gripes about the old soft lead bullets was thT they disintigrated into shreads and even if wounded survived they c.e down with vRying degreesof lead poisoning.
    The euros were scientific and fought to gain US who did not and still does not give a flyn f how we kill or how our .ilitary is treTed aaftrr their usefullness is over. A BRAIN DEAD LIFER SUFFERING FROM LOW INTEL CULD NOT AFFORD TO LOSE ny of his facultys due to old lead wounds but American lives have always been cheap, we like it that way as we are real men.
    Hornadys new forms of Hp ( specificly the ftx rounds) may well be the way to go.:as are a few solid coppers that retain 99+%of bullet without dhedding fragme ts.
    With lead lodged in joints especially one will find lead poison terminal eve after accumulating to criticality after 50 years.
    As to correct forum of course not we want macho flag waving only, we don’ t need no fn reasons told us of why we war, President Bush said he had gotten God on our side and 200 million gang bangers mounted up while singing the Battle Hymn in and Dixiel in unison. WEe geocided a nation that had never nor ever had any ill will towards us.
    The wars of occupation of Afghanistan Iraq and Libya were criminal and now in order to finish what we began we must for ge erTions to come kill ever more.
    Our political and military leaders are real good at killing and making money for corporate and political coffers but they have fn bungled every military undertaking since end lf WWII and only by genocide as we did to Iraq can we now even pretend we won.
    Trouble is brutality no matter the source seeks a balance that neither side can attain. The cause had no logic and the consequences have none either they like the war we wanted exist.
    A war that has now grown so fn big we have more Nations inCombat thatn in either WWI &WWII.
    THANKS TOTHEM WE NOW HAVE WHAT FOR 200 YEARS WHAT NO OTHER SOVEREIGN NATION COULD ACCOMPLISH, WENOW HAVE
    WAR UPON OUR HOMELAND STREETS AND PEOPLES LIVES.
    THANKS A FN LOT AND PASS THE AMMO CAN.

    1. Hide Behind is a fitting screen name for you. Won’t you go learn English before you post all this Islamic BS. Your are so full of it. The three countries you mentioned have hated and had ill will towards us for decades, if not centuries. And it is all because of one thing. We are friends with Israel. Ishmael tried to kill his Isaac, his little brother, and Abraham sent him and his mother away for it. Every since the Muslims have been trying to kill the Jews and anyone who befriends them. As for war on our streets, we still don’t have war here. We have terrorism. terrorists are not warriors. They are cowards who aren’t brave enough to take on a nations trained fighters. Instead they make surprise attacks on unarmed civilians. Yes civilians have died in war but it’s because of attacks on military targets that contain civilians such as factories, dams, and power plants. Terrorists don’t attack military targets because they are defended. They attack targets that kill civilians and get them attention because it makes them feel brave, even though they aren’t. They are no different than the drunk in the bar who waits till the guy with the cute girl is not looking and sucker punches him and brags about whipping his @$$.

  10. There’s not a proper forum for the comment I want to make, but this one is close enough.

    Isn’t it pathetic that 4 US Marines were not even allowed to carry a gun while on the job, and they were gunned down like sheep in a pen? Who decided this, that soldiers in recruiting offices cannot carry guns? They are representing the ARMED forces, and their offices are targets, and they are UNARMED!!!! How sad is that? What has become of our country? Is this just more Obamanation?

    Donald Trump may be saying some rough things in the media, but maybe we need a strong leader like this to make America strong again. I don’t think Donald Trump would let US Marines be unarmed like this. I don’t usually watch the national news channels, but I’m going to keep my eye on Fox News and see what (if anything) the people running for President are saying about the massacre in Tennessee.

  11. Your source has his head up his ass. For anything besides security stateside, the use of anything but FMJ ammunition is strictly prohibited by the Laws of Land Warfare.

    1. John, I don’t know where your head is, but your source is mislead. There are know Laws of Land Warfare. Like all international law it is really just an agreement or contract between nations. That is just a phrase used by trainers to emphasize the point to recruits. The bad part is, you just have to read a few posts to know the facts. The Hague Accord forbid the use of expanding bullets in warfare. The US did not sign the Hague Accord. It has abided by it’s articles when in battle with other nations who abide by it’s articles.

  12. I am biased towards 9mm for several reasons:
    My wife and I both compete in monthly IDPA matches and like the lower recoil and reloading cost of 9mm.
    We both have CCP and can carry smaller single stack weapons in 9mm.
    We have both learned that if you practice to shoot accurately, then you do not need the extra knock-down power of ,40 or ,45 cal.
    We both agree that 9mm is the perfect caliber for both practice and self defense. Not many spouses can agree on that many things!

  13. Sorry about this late comment,but here goes.Didnt any of you guys see a brave Jordanian pilot get burned to death inside of a cage? If there is a round that goes in an enemies ear a comes out his ass well then bring it on. Those ISIS animals will rape our women soldiers to death and torture our guys to death. what do I care about Rules of War when my enemy decapitates an 8 yearold girl.They need to die or they will murder us.Get it?

  14. There has been numerous complaints from troops that the 5.56 caliber lacks knock down power.I think that using JHP ammo is a reasonably cost effective solution.

  15. Uh, Bob….paper targets don’t shoot back, nor bowling pins or golfballs. What at are you betting your life on? Maybe that your occasionally jamming .45’s don’t explode on you?

  16. .45. 9mm. Both effective in making us murders of children’s father’s whos kids are hungery. Making widower of husband’s and bastards dead dads. The owners of the military industrial complex. These words spoken here is music to there ears or money? Our rights are systematicaly becoming less effective by the very power we give to our government to protect us. How is this working for us. .45 or 9mm

  17. Look at other possibilities. What if it’s intentions are to be used against the American public. So be it? A good advantage? The US military is the best.period. but the way things are happening with lack of jobs due to out souring over seas. The Eminence of civil unrest and marshal law to take anyone of us without due peocess. Well you get the picture.

  18. The military will very likely stay with the 9mm and go Hollow Point.
    I on the other hand , am old school , when possible will carry a .45 !

  19. I find this idea extremely plausible to when it comes to the National Guard carrying live rounds. Well, just not when it comes to Obama’s sons in Ferguson, Baltimore, etc. We wouldn’t want rioters, looters, and domestic terrorists hurt now would we?

    1. That’s what I thought too. As a matter of fact, that’s what we were taught in the Navy’s GM “A” school at Great Lakes, IL when I served back in 1986-91. It’s possible that could have changed since then, but I never heard about it.

    1. Can you or anyone else please direct me to where I could find the specs on how many layers of tin foil it takes to stop hollowpoint round? I don’t think my hat is thick enough yet.

  20. Ok, just my thoughts here, so don’t jump down my throat for them. I didn’t serve in the military, so I couldn’t say what types of weaponry would be best. My thoughts are on the use of HP and/or JHP ammunition. And I would have to say my thoughts are mixed on the topic. In most current situations our troops find themselves in, it would seem that this type of ammo would be preferable. They face non military personnel, at least most of whom are not going to be wearing any type of body armor. They’re facing them in areas that increase the risk to nearby innocents due to over penetration. On top of that, many of them are more than happy to die, or leave their companions to die if wounded, believing they’ll be rewarded for their sacrifice. So, they’re not going to be tied up trying to help them. So, they should probably be taken down in as effective a manner as possible, decreasing the risk to our own troops.
    However, under war conditions with another country or countries, such as in WW1 & 2, it’s a whole different thing. For one, we will want our troops, injured or captured, to be treated well. Just as our opponents will expect of us. And besides that, in a modern war, any major country’s troops will likely be wearing armor.
    From what I’ve read, it would seem the the US is not technically bound not to use HP ammo, even though it’s been basically a given that we’ll abided by the various treaties and conventions. I have a difficult time with the thought of NOT using the most effective ammunition against an enemy who will torture and mutilate anyone they feel doesn’t conform to their views. Short of using chemicals, biologics, or nuclear weapons of course. But as far as basic ballistic weapons, non explosive, but using basic physics to advantage… If the situation calls for it, then it should be considered. The world was a much different place when those rules were created, and there should probably be some changes. Our current enemies will use whatever means they can manage to kill, without regard. If we can remove their threat, while simultaneously decreasing the risk to nearby non combatants, it just seems logical to me. But, as I said, I didn’t serve, and my brother who did doesn’t talk about his time in Iraq, so I’m really only seeing my own personal logic, which may not fit with the reality of combat. But having both types of ammunition available would seem appropriate to me.

  21. The 45 cal. FMJ is going to leave a 1/2″ hole in whatever it hits. The two 1911 pistols I own have both jammed on rare occasions using hollow points. They NEVER fail using 230 grain FMJ. What would you prefer to bet your life on?

  22. This is the dumbest thing I’ve read this week. Hollow point doesn’t work on armored targets, so Using it in combat is stupid. It is crazy expensive compared to ball ammo and the military is facing budget cuts. the political backlash for abandoning the Hague Conventions (Geneva had nothing to do with ammo) would be catastrophic to our efforts in the middle east. In fact, the only logical reason for the military to switch to using JHP is if it planned on tuning its guns on the US citizenry.

    1. Wait…what???

      Here’s a news flash for you Cameron, M882 NATO 9mm 124-grain FMJ ammunition doesn’t work on armored targets either. You do realize that essentially ALL body armor is designed to stop effectively ALL types of handgun ammunition. Further, the types of body armor worn by combat troops is typically designed to stop much higher velocity rifle cartridges as well. It won’t matter one Hill O’ Beans weather your side arm is firing HP or FMJ if your target is wearing armor.

      Also…

      As the author points out in the article, with the vast majority of combat missions taking place in urban areas, around civilian non-combatants, a hollow point round has far less chance of overpenetration which helps limit the chances of civilian casualties.

    1. Sorry Kurt. If you continue to read more posts you will see I tend to get to wordy. Most of mine are pretty long. In this case I just got tired of hearing the same misinformation over and over again. To many people like Cairo are commenting on a subject they nothing about. If they would just read a few posts they would see where other people tried to comment with the same misinformation and had to be corrected. My dad use to say it is better to keep you mouth closed and let people think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and confirm their suspensions.

  23. If my nations Alphabet internal security forces under Homeland Security believes they need hollow points to protect themselves against some future internal (american) terrorist then why are we americans not respected as much as foreign combatants?
    Then again our WAR ON TERROR DRUGS AND FOREIGN FEMALE BASHERS is not war as in Hague Nuremburg or Geneva Accords, No we are an expanding Empire that beings our own “Do As We Say, not”As We Do” rules and regulations to nations we oversee.
    We fight no Sovereign Powers that can have any chance of defending themselves from our economic and military power
    The World Bodies now take orders from a combination of economic and political factions backed by US military prowess.
    In order to retain our position as worlds top guns we need the best most destructive weaponry Vailable to us while denying it to any but our most loyal and subservient allies.
    As to one persons worry about foreign nationals replacing US native born in military forget it it is a fact of life and extends even into officer corps.
    At Bush Wars upon Iraq there were over 20,000 non citizens in Navy and Marines alone and more than double that in Army.
    That they were mandated into citizenship is no worry as they come from nations where crime and corruption are as accepted as is crime within this nation.
    Its all about the bucks and the pay is good no matter what private or national mercenary forces.
    What we began by constant war will soon find outlets within US borders wether real or false flags the powers need full spectrum control and if it takes hollow points to enforce it here or elsewhere it has not one damn thing to doi with Patriotism.
    So mentaly masturbate over what you have no control over as your opinions are but sounding shots.

  24. The MHS will probably be chambered for the .9mm Caliber round as the armed forces is already trained and geared to use this ammunition. It is suited for both combat and garrision (on base or urban) applications. One could easily argue when it comes to knock down and terminal damage to the aggressor, the .45 Caliber round is the best option. It had been a staple of U.S. firearms for decades and is seemingly making a come back in some branches and special units of the armed forces. But, in these days of bedgetary restrictions, it could become cost prohibitive. For decades, the Air Forces carried .38 Cailber weapons such as the S&W Combat Masterpiece for Security Police (I carried this combat proven reliable firearm until the change over to the Beretta M-9) and a snub nosed version for aircrew members. For that era and the time, it was sufficient enough to do the job it was designed for. That was before ballistic vests, helmets and other armor wear applications were brought into the mix. As for myself, I presently carry Federal Guard Dog ammunition chambered for the .40 Caliber round carried in a S&W M&P Shield. I carry this particular Caliber and round for its proven stopping power to eliminate the threat. On occasion, depending on clothing options, I carry a Bersa Thunder .380 Combat pistol with the Invictor (projectile looks like the tip of a drill bit head) round. A very effective round for self-defense use.

  25. The .45 was developed and well served in many actions and for many years. It would still provide the best service to our military and LE. The 1911 is not political correct – but is “the pistol.”

  26. While they report reduction in troop numbers sir, under the table they are adding illegal aliens to replace the troops the discharge, that is not a reduction it is a no doubt in my mind a transference of power to an uninformed person that has no vested interest in this country or loyalty, our military is being transformed into a blindly following no questions asked gang of thugs. Americans are being edged out so that mindless illegals will do the bidding of those in charge including firing on American citizens without compunction.

    1. Oh fer cryinout loud. Any evidence, other than that email from your crazy uncle? Didn’t think so.

    2. So what you’re saying…is you have absolutely no reason to believe this is happening. Absolutely nothing to indicate there are plans to do this or that it’s underway and absolutely nothing to show anyone has the intention of doing so but because it is within the realm of possibility (which is to say ONLY that all the constituent parts of it are in fact real things) anyone who doesn’t believe the conspiracy has their head up their ass?

      Perhaps you should reconsider what it means to have one’s head up their @$$? Meanwhile, while you’re using an enema as mouthwash the rest of will be worrying about things happening in the real world.

      Just remember, just because you saw it on the internet…doesn’t make it true…

  27. One question — how are we going to get around the Geneva Convention that outlaws the use of dum-dums & expanding ammo

    1. The Geneva Convention didn’t outlaw dum-dums, that is a misconception, it was the Hague convention(s). According to the above article the US was not a signatory to those portions of the Hague Conventions.

    2. And yet, for 20 years I have been required to take an annual Law of Armed Conflict refresher which clearly states that hollow-point/dum dum rounds are prohibited. Granted, LOAC is less “law” and more “custom”, but our adherence to it is what sets us apart from our enemies…it is our recognition that the purpose of warfare is to END the war as quickly and humanely as possible. To that end, the purpose of “ball” ammo is to remove an enemy combatant from the battlefield, not (believe it or not) to inflict massive wounds beyond the reasonable help of medicine.

      Having no inside knowledge, I’m personally in the camp of believing this to be another Internet rumor. Someone tell me that the British, Germans, and French are moving to hollow point ammo, and I’ll give this more credence.

    3. Also, the Hague only applies to uniformed soldiers in war.

      As the other comment notes, we never actually ratified the accord and precisely the same reason our Federal LEO’s are able to use HP ammo is because it’s not used against uniformed soldiers involved in war between states.

      We could use it in Afghanistan as it is. The main reason I suspect we don’t (and I’ve always wondered if some Special Forces units in fact do, maybe counter-terrorism teams) is likely concern over international condemnation.

  28. Some sniper ammo is of “open tip” design — not so much a hollow-point as simply having an empty opening in the front end of the jacket so as to move the bullet’s center of mass further back. Moving the bullet’s center of mass back improves long range accuracy — and that’s the reason for the so-called “hollow-point” ammo currently in use. True hollow-point ammo designed to expand upon impact would certainly improve combat efficiency, but we’d better be prepared to get a lot of flak from around the world…

    1. 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP ……. these are “long range” that would benefit from “open tip” design?

  29. Para ordinance makes a 14 shot magazine .45 that is basically a 1911 with a fat grip and it holds 14+1, not bad for a .45. The reason the FBI is going back to the 9MM is there isn’t much of a difference between the two energy wise. Anyone who remembers the 1986 Miami shootout which killed and wounded a bunch of Feds even though that had shot the bad guys with their 9MMs know why they moved away from the 9MM. The problem the feds then had was they were hiring a bunch of female agents and the girls and the wimpier guys couldn’t handle the 10MM recoil so the feds down loaded the 10mm to the FBI lite load, which is similar to the 9mm. Foolishly believing it would somehow work better than the round the had abandoned, with similar ballistics. The 10MM, a MUCH more powerful cartridge was the answer they were looking for but they blew it to make sure they were more Politically Correct. So P.C. trumped agent safety. AS far as the military goes an up loaded .45 caliber hollow point round in a modern .45 cal pistol would work fine, maybe even the .45 Super pushing the 230gr JHP at 1100 fps instead of 850 fps would add a tremendous amount of energy to the round, it would be over 600 ft/lbs. not a bad man stopper.

    1. With a barrel change and a slightly heavier spring they could even convert the old .45s to .45 Super. The difference in energy between the two would be significant the .45 230gr round at 850 gives you about 369 ft/lbs of energy, where as the .45 Super 230gr JHP at 1100 fps gives you about 618 ft/lbs of energy. Not a bad punch.

    2. John it is true that the FBI reduced the load on the 10mm because of the recoil, but it had nothing to do with girls or wimpy guys. If you believe such people were a problem in the FBI then get your facts straight and present an intelligent argument. The problem the FBI had with the 10mm was that the guns couldn’t handle the recoil. Both Colt and S&W submitted pistols to the FBI for there study of the 10mm. Both made fine guns for the civilian use, but the FBI had to keep sending them back for repair. I guess it was the difference between 1000rnds/day and a box a month. Any way it was the equipment, not the people that couldn’t handle the recoil. Also recoil is a valid concern for a defensive or offensive weapon. Even if the shooter doesn’t object to the recoil they have to be prepared for a quick second shot. I’m 6’3″ and 300lbs. I can shoot a 500 S&W, but I wouldn’t carry one. Every officer is not Dirty Harry and the bad guys don’t have a director telling them when they can shoot back. If the bad guy is trying to shoot you when you pull the trigger the first time you don’t to have to recover from severe recoil before you fire the second shot. Yeah I know we like to think the first shot is what counts, but in a combat situation, civilian or military, it is a rare bird that can …… firm grip .. sight alignment .. squeeze .. while being shot at. Even if they can, there might be two bad guys. Or more. Speaking of Dirty Harry, I know there is the seen about the “.44magnum blowing your head clean off”, but there is another movie, where he explains to a rooky cop that he carries the .44magnum because he likes the weight but uses .44specials because in the magnum they have less recoil than the .357. Even Dirty Harry knew recoil was a factor in a self defense gun. You are right that the FBI kept reducing the load of the 10 until they got a load liked, but it was still well above the ballistics of the 9mm. Once they arrived at a load that had both the ballistics and recoil they wanted they realized they didn’t need the case capacity of the 10mm. So they worked with S&W to develop a cartridge that was shorter than the 10mm. This allowed them to reduce the grip of the firearm from front to rear and make it a little fatter which made room for a double stack mag. Now they had power, controllable recoil, and capacity. All they needed was a name for the new cartridge. They called it the .40 S&W.

    3. Thanks for that history, very interesting. Funny how a story that’s so logical and plausible can get turned into utter BS (“we had to get rid of the round because of the wimpy guys”) once it hits the Internet.

    4. Thanks Tim, I love shooting and cherish my firearms and only the truth will protect them. I try to keep it factual and accurate, but it is getting harder and harder on this post. So many commenters whose fingers aren’t attached to their brain. Inaccurate post are bad enough. Repeating what some else has already said is inevitable. But when so many people keep repeating so many incorrect things that have already been posted and corrected, it is just a waste of time and I am seriously considering unsubscribing. But thanks again for your kind words.

  30. The .45ACP JHP is the only way to go. As for the 1911 there are more modern designs that retain many of its desirable features while eliminating its flaws. It was a landmark pistol design in its day, but that day has come and gone. The basic design has been improved upon by several outstanding manufacturers providing greater capacity in some cases, plus improved reliability and life of the weapon. The HK45, or HK45C would be an excellent choice to carry in .45ACP and is being carried by some special units. They can also be had with threaded barrels for sound suppressors.

  31. The 45 auto colt was never used in the Conquering, takeovrr and later of the Insurection
    Of Philippines..
    Myths and f’d up historical false mrme’s bull crap seem to be what gun owners .
    One factor in loss of knockdown was in the soft lead bullets themselves, heck even the famrd Colt Revolver in 45 did not always kill one shot as it usually did not penetrate from a pistol very deeply.
    C’MON LETS QUIT THE HYPOCRICY OF WORRY ABOUT HOW WHOM AND WHAT WITH THAT WE KILL!
    We tslk of Genrva Conventions as a propaganda tool when thr bad guys break them and the War Crimes Court has Several Americans names on its most wanted list.
    We steer clear of thr Nuremburg Trials . Damn far from them, I wonder why.
    So forget crocodile tears and holy of holys Flag anf give the best most effecient killing toold we can agford.
    We need tp be protected as we go shopping, ya never know when some hut dweller from a resource rich nation and is a poor as pis…. peasants might do as the Morod did, no guns grab a machette.

    1. I haven’t read where anybody said that the .45acp was at the Philippine Insurrection. Only that the military realized they need something much more powerful than what they had there.

      The only thing wrong with the 45 colt was the black powder. If it weren’t for the soft lead bullets you mentioned the velocities obtained with the black powder wouldn’t cause the bullet to expand and caused the damage it did. As a matter of fact in a modern revolver, with modern steels, such as the Ruger, and modern smokeless powders the 45 colt can be loaded to .44magnum specs. Don’t use them in you vintage peacemaker. You will loose both the gun and your hand.

  32. My reference to the ’50s pertained to the poster’s state of mind and had nothing to do with the development of the 1911 pistol. While your post was probably informative to someone else, I could have done without it, but hey nice try. I bet you rate a soldier by how shiny his boots are, don’t you? Get out of the past, there are plenty of designs better than the 1911, these days. I like them, myself, and own several but I am also a realist.

  33. I don’t care what the caliber is as long as the gun is American made. If we can put a man on the moon, we can provide guns for our military. I hat to send my tax dollars over seas and you should to. Buy American!

  34. Unless these HP rounds will be used against US CIVILIANS, anything other than FMJ is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, and users can be tried as war criminals.

    I do reckon that Gene Stoner designed the M-16 around the 5.56 round which was tailored to easily tumble on impact, cussing massive internal damage, and to get around the FMJ restriction, which was supposed to be a more humane way to shoot some one.

    1. Ken, I’m sorry you get to catch this. You are just one of what seems to be turning into hundreds. I can’t believe how many people are posting here without a clue what they are talking about. I’m not even going to give you the correct history. You’ll have to read some of the other posts where some many have already gotten it right. Post you should have read before posting. However there is nothing about FMJ’s in the Geneva convention, and the 5.56 doesn’t tumble.

  35. Expecting the Army to use one pistol or one caliber for all purposes is highly optimistic. I would expect that a family of pistols sharing the majority of their parts and manual of arms would make the most sense. Single action, SA/DA, DA only, compact and full size, perhaps even single stack and double stack.

  36. 9MM is the modern day 38 special – why go with ammo that will require overloading to keep it effective? 45 is the way to go if they have already assumed the 40SW if somehow not what they needed when oit appears to be EXACTLY what they need – more rounds per mag, more power per round – good 180 grain rounds with more energy and easily supersonic shock wave capable without the need for overloading.

  37. I thought use of hollow point ammo is a violation of the Geneva or some such Convention or treaty. I don’t think this will hold water unless its specialized application.

    1. You are correct. The Geneve Convention does indeed ban hollow point or expanding ammunition. I’m sure SOF uses them, but they will not be issued to the regular U.S. military.

    2. Argus, while the United States military abides by the Geneva accords, the United States never signed the Geneva Accords. Thus, we are not in violation.

    3. I had to look it up as I thought it was in the Geneva Convention as well.
      It is the Hague Convention and anybody in NATO is required to follow it. That’s how I read it anyway:

      Here is where I got that from
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet#Legality
      The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that are prohibited by the Hague Convention and the United Nations.[citation needed]

      Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of bullets used by civilians and police,[4] which is due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.[citation needed]

      In many jurisdictions, even ones such as the United Kingdom, where expanding ammunition is generally prohibited, it is illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammunition that does not expand.[5][6] Some target ranges forbid full metal jacket ammunition, due to its greater tendency to damage metal targets and backstops.[7]

  38. Hate to tell you this but the 50s are over and your thinking is obsolete. Also, why would you want to bring back an obsolete design, like the 1911?

    1. Just an FYI, the 1911 was a front line combat weapon in WW1 and that was 1917-1918 for the United States; that was well before the ’50’s’ that you stated. Also, it was still a front line combat weapon for the Navy into the mid 1990’s, as sailors carried it in Bosnia (Adriatic Sea) for boardings while we Coasties carried the Beretta 92 in Bosnia. It is still a front line combat weapon, as the USMC just outfitted their Marine SOCOM troops with it. The design is combat proven, rugged and durable, ergonomic and has stopping power the 9mm just doesn’t have. While having a 9mm is compatible for working with other nations, it’s time for the rest of the military to catch up. The USCG carries the P229 in .40 while the rest of the military still carries the 9mm and complains about stopping power.

    2. Actually gentlemen the 1911 will never go obsolete it is still the premier round and design on the market today for two reasons, the round itself is one of the hardest hitting and the design is a “kiss” design, “keep it simple stupid” the hammer is external”second strike capability with hard primers” and using a metal frame not a plasti-glass one the recoil is super manageable, the first handgun I ever picked up… I got -2″ group at 25m on double taps it’s battle proven and time tested, though I don’t own one at this time, the design can be altered to fit double stack mags to increase ammo storage , in fact I think I read of one not long ago that sported a double stack mag that increased the round count to 14 or something. I’ll have to look it up again our military boys just need practice to handle it considering they’ve been spoiled to the 9mm. But as a 9mm owner I have found that 9mm +p with semi wad cutter design can hit very hard indeed, I have females in the family that prefer the 9mm. I will acquire a .45 again and be happy as a lark when I do. Tactical mag changes are simple you just need to opt for more mag storage and count your rounds to avoid and empty chamber , which is not an issue really concerning the lock open on last round. Training makes the difference in combat, or even competition shooting, many prefer the compact or subcompacts for carry, I carry a full size sig p250 9mm though I miss the double single action of the .45 and others, I can always count on a no accidental misfire by others with it. And to me the sig has one of the smoothest pulls for a double action I know. If you’re worried about body armor there are always other targets available for the hit you need and that is the thing that will give you the head shot to finish it. While there are advantages and disadvantages to each point given. I don’t think that any can doubt the power and effectiveness of the .45 round and its capabilities.

  39. i would hope that what ever pistol the military goes to it isnt one of the plastic fantastic. i would prefer the 70 series 1911 in 45 or 10mm and since we no longer ride horses in combat it is time to take the stupid grip safety off the gun. the standard rifle should be the m14 in 308. if you are worried about the extra weight im sure they can delete something from that 90+ lbs rucksack to make up the difference. i know the simplicity and maintaince of the AR series is quicker and easier than the m14 .the reliability and shear knockdown power of the 308 is so much better than the 223 or the blackout which is no more than a ugly 30 carbine . also there is no reason for any 1911 style pistol to have feed problems with hollow points it the bbl is throated properly. the guy that mentioned the 38 super is right,that is one hot little round and a blast to shoot..

    1. The 1911 is not obselete. Actually it is still the preferred sidearm to many special forces units (Colt railgun I believe adopted by seal units and other units). It is also the number one firearm of choice in tournaments. If you think a Glock would be better this is yet to be proven. As far as .45 ACP goes, I have spoken to many people coming back from the battlefield who whole heartedly were afraid the 9mm would not perform as needed.) I know you didn’t bring this up). Keep your Glocks and M9s, the 1911 is all and will continue to be all unless we find a new design sprung from its ideas.

    2. Well said Steve. There is one change I would like to see on the 1911 if our troops are going to use it. Capacity. If it were my son, I’ld like for him to have more than 8 rnds before he has to reload.

      Crazy, the only safety a handgun needs is the grip safety. It does exactly what you need a safety to do and it is ergonomically invisible. That means you don’t have to think about it or take the time to manipulate it.

  40. I like the SIG SAUER 320 it has a 17 round mag in 9mm and handles ball and HP with ease . and the grip is switchable to small medium and large hands. I keep a full size sig 320 in Medim grip and my wife with small hands carries a sig 320 compact in small grip which also carries 17 rds in the mag .
    I have an M9 and the Sig is more accurate in the same shooters hand .

  41. He does the DoD get around the illegality of using Hollowpoint, non jacketed projectiles in war or combat? In Military Law I was taught this type ammo violates the Geneva Conventions, and International Law. True, it’s better energy transferal, but how can the US stay on the high road if it’s not legal? Now I have not seen the latest, maybe there is a way around this in the Military ROE, but this is a gigantic surprise to anyone who has studied Military Law at least back in the day… Thanks on any updates to how they get around this – And even if so, the manufacture issues, and feed and reliability for non-ball in semi’s and autos – non-trivial. I see even good 45 ACP JHP jam at bad times….

  42. I think an SA XD 45 would be best. 13 + 1, survived numerous torture tests, no chance of accidental fire, accurate, and inexpensive. Let’s do this!

  43. I think the debate over the merits of the 9mm vs. the 40 Smith vs. the 45 ACP will probably go on into the next century. In the same vein, the debate over how those wonderful folks over at the Defense Department spend our tax dollars will also go on for a long time to come.

    When I was a young soldier, I seem to recall being lectured about “dum-dum” bullets. The story I was told was that during the Boer War, British soldiers would take a sharp knife and cut an “X” cruciform on the nose of the bullet. This “X” would cause the bullet to fracture inside someone instead of passing through. The intent was to leave a bloody wound that would be difficult to treat. Let it be noted that the opposing Boers had their own forms of misery for the soldiers of the British Army.

    We were told that if we used anything in our weapons except military ball ammunition, or deformed in any way the issued ammunition, we were in violation of Army Regulations and could be court martialed. Time spent in prison at Fort Leavenworth and the subsequent Dishonorable Discharge being a “bad” thing.

    I also recall being told that the US signed the Geneva Conventions, which dealt with treatment of prisoners of war, the use of poison gas, and a lot of other military issues. The use of anything but ball ammunition, and using any weapon larger that 50 caliber on personnel, was also prohibited. I also understand that all of this comes under “The Law of Land Warfare”.

    I hope a knowledgeable reader can weigh on my recollections of my early years as a soldier and set the record straight. It wouldn’t be the first time somebody in the Defense Department did something stupid.

    Rock

  44. To many words for me here already. My two cents;
    9mm with 90gr projectile with BIG HP, going much faster than current ammo, speed kills.\, Big HP will open Big.
    Rifle; 7-TCU. Only requires barrel change, known accuracy with very large bullet selection existing. Existing L/C brass and manufactures can be used, Superior ballistics for longer range and larger diameter than competing calibers, (except 30 cal. of course). Larger diameter equals increased damage logarithmically, (7 percent increase in diameter can equate to 20 – 30 percent increase in terminal damage).

  45. Military Snipers use “Open Tip Match” ammo which is technically a “hollow point” but, it is used because of it’s superior ballistics and accuracy. Not because it is a “hollow point” Also, across the board use of hollow point ammo is a double edged sword. It will do more damage to enemy Soldiers who get hit and, the probability of killing them will increase but, a wounded Soldier needs treatment which will take others out of the fight to move him and render aid. A dead enemy Soldier doesn’t require aid and won’t remove more enemy from the fight.

  46. My feeling is that .45acp 230 grain ball would be the way to go. Good velocity, penetration, knock down power as well as feeding reliability for the range a handgun will normally be used. If used in something like an FNX Tactical that’s both DA/SA with a 16 round capacity and the ability to practice with the same ammo you would be shipped out with would help the confidence level of the soldier that when they pull the trigger in a fight it will keep going bang. Just my opinion but its tried and true so why reinvent what works now that we have handguns that will hold more than twice the ammo that the 1911 use to.

  47. It’s been a while, but I recall that the language in the Hague Convention refers to “expanding” and “frangible” ammunition, rather than hollowpoints per se. WHile the current discussion seems to be a bout pistol ammunition , aka secondary weapons, I think the real switch should be to non-expanding FMJ hollowpoints in the current NATO 5.56 62 grain rifle round. HP ammo is inherently more ballistically stable and effective even without impact deformation.

  48. Interesting how reference to the .45 assumes it must come from a 1911. While the history of this friearm is wonderful, it finckiness with HPs and its low magazine holding is a concern. Therefore, why shouldn’t there be a look at something like the Springfield XDm in 45 ACP that will eat most HPs and has a 13 round mag capacity? Plus there is no messing around with thumb safeties during stressful usage.

    Someone else got into the 6.8 as a nice replacement for the current 5.56. My friends in the military tell me this is an excellent first round caliber but the second shot is difficult to make rapidly on target. When I asked what would work, the reply was the 7.62×35, sometimes called the 300 Blackout. The 300B is already out there and built on an AR15 platform. They say this 30 cal is barely noticeable in increased recoil, is much easier for a follow-up shot, and has much better knockdown power.

    1. I too am in the military and I too say we should switch to .300 BLK. As for sidearm, I say Glock 41.

  49. The hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the United States:

    Please see the url:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907
    and
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907#cite_note-40

    The first defines the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

    The Hague Convention of 1899 consisted of six articles.

    The Hague Convention of 1907 consisted of fourteen articles.

    In the case of both of these conventions EACH ARTICLE had to be approved INDIVIDUALLY. Thus, a nation could be a signatory to one or both of these conventions, but did not approve one or more of the articles within one or both of these conventions.

    Hague Convention of 1899: The United States signed articles I ,II, III, and IV, but article IV was not ratified by Congress. Article IV, 3 [the sixth article was not signed by the United States. See Hague Convention of 1907 below].

    Hague Convention of 1907: The United States signed twelve of the fourteen articles. Articles VI and VII were not signed.

    Article VI is:

    Declaration (IV,3) concerning the prohibition of the use of bullets which can easily expand or change their form inside the human body such as bullets with a hard covering which does not completely cover the core, or containing indentations (1899).

    My purpose is merely educational here.

    I personally feel that HP ammunition, especially in handguns, is a bad idea. My own Vietnam combat experience convinces me that round nose hard ball is the most reliable handgun ammunition, under all conditions (especially .45 ACP). Special operations may have different needs where HP may be desirable.

  50. Since our wars after 2001 were not against signatories of war rules conventions, I believe we should bring to bear the most devastating ammo possible. One solution would Carbon Fiber stock M14s shooting shard ammo which under 500 yards would rip targets to shards and literally make high leg and arm wounds a high chance of fatality.

    We all have overwhelming hatred of terrorism, so tortuous injuries would be a nice thing.

  51. There is only one cartridge design that is perfect for the military. It is the Kramer 6.8. The round is a match for the 6.8 SPC but the compatibility with the current .556 platform and superior 500 yard ballistics – especially with hollow point or controlled expansion loads makes for a perfect round.

    110+ grains with a 2600+ MV + superior ballistics compared with 7.62 means catastrophic injury at double the range of the 5.56 x 45 62 grain @ 2900+ MV

    Brass is based is a modified 5.56. mags with slight mods work fine as do all std rifle components except for the buffer spring and buffer. No other round comes close with the possible exception of the 7.62 x 40 whose attributes are not as significant in terms of retrofit and magazine.

    1. Nazi Germany was our last significant enemy to attempt to observe the Geneva Conventions.

      I saw we scrap the Geneva Conventions and say, “We will treat your combatants like you treat ours: no better, no worse!”

  52. This has really been a hot thread and a fun one to follow.
    There have been some, IMHO, mistaken comments here centering on the morality of shooting someone who is trying to kill you with a hollow point, and worrying about the Hague Convention (which occurred in 1899 and 1907 before modern firearms or HPs even existed) regulations, and the Geneva Convention (which had nothing whatsoever to do with ammunition). Virtually none of the people we are likely to be fighting with could care less about waging war humanely.

    But there have also been some very good comments that have caused me to stop and think. These include:
    1. Penetration of body armor with HPs vs FMJ, although many of our current enemies do not use body armor but Russia certainly does.
    2. Wounding an enemy combatant usually ties up more resources than killing him, although many of our current enemies do not recover their wounded because they are seeking martyrdom.
    3. The potential for feed problems with HPs in some weapons. I have a 1911 that just will not feed HTPs.

    All in all, my compliments to all of you for being engaged and expressing yourselves so well, whether I agree with you or not. So much for the Left Wing viewpoint that gun owners are all a bunch of Red Neck knuckle draggers.

  53. I shoot a .357sig in a Glock 32, I believe this cartridge is superior to the 9mm in every subjective catagory and is equal in energy to the .40 SW.
    It shoots flat farther than any of the three proposed cartridges with more energy at distance. It is also lighter with less bulk than the .40 SW or the colt .45.

    Its major draw back is that it is relatively unknown out side european law enforcement.

    1. In the field the concern would be weight and how much of that ammo you could carry along with the other gear. Plus, a .357 has enough recoil that if you had to shoot it for any extended period would most likely fatigue and hurt your hand. The marines had requested to carry a 1911 again. The most effective load would be a soft lead bullet (out-lawed in a united nations agreement I believe). The 45 at first was considered a trench gun to handle close range. If we had the best of all worlds, our soldiers would pick the side arm they wanted to carry between a limited choice of maybe three guns or ammo type. I do not believe one size fits all. That would create a consistency dilemma of having available ammo. For penetration and accuracy a 9mm would work, but soldiers need to have advanced ammo.

  54. In 2006 the Coast Guard switched to the .40 cal Sig 229 R-DAK. Because they have authority on foreign national ships and on U.S. property they are required to carry 2 types of ammunition. Military Hardball when doing boardings on foreign ships or property. When boarding american ships or stationed in the U. S. They use hollowpoint. The Geneva convention does not allow hollowpoint or dum-dum ammunition, which is what hollowpoint falls under. Federal forces have no authority on U.S. property. (DOD) This is the reason all military ammo is hardball. It has worked for over 150 years. Another reason is that almost all military forces in the world wear pretty heavy duty bullet and fragment proof vests. Hollow point bullets will not penetrate. The reason the president is banning foreign ammo from being imported (Ak-47, 74, fn 5.7×28). They are all hardball that would penetrate armour. Hollow point gets defeated.

  55. To answer BRASS’s question above, please read read paragraph 2, line 6 in the Cheaper Than Dirt article above.

  56. With how messed up military leadership and their logic is these days, they’ll probably go with a 1911 in 9MM and keep the FMJ.

  57. Seriously? Quoting a “military lawyer”?? A few really significant points here:
    1. Military lawyers are not required to have passed any type of law exam other than to graduate.
    2. Many have never been in a court of law as a trial lawyer.
    3. Since 1899, while it is true that the U.S. Is not a signatory on The Hague Convention, we have been a supporter of it from day one. Every Prisoner of War; every medic; every non-combatant – we demand that all countries support the HC.
    4. In WWII – Japan acted outside the bounds of civilized conduct under the premise that it was also not a signatory member.
    Get a good grip on reality – the military is not going to shift conventional forces to hollow point ammo. Violation of the treaty in that manner would provide indescribable backlash. As for the comment that in doing so would bring US forces “in line with law enforcement” is not a desired state. Two separate and distinct functions never to be mixed.

    1. Consider that the hollow point ammunition could be used inside of the USA, against Americans as well as terrorists. The US Army is losing another 40,000 troops, those being retained and promoted to senior leadership are and will be more loyal to the current POTUS, who said ‘by 2025 there will only be 69 million Americans left’. WHAT DOES HE KNOW THAT THE REST OF THE 315 MILLION AMERICANS DON’T KNOW.

  58. I could be wrong, it’s been a couple decades or more since I read them, but it seems to me I remember hollow point or expanding projectile ammunition being interpreted by the international legal types as violating the Geneva Conventions.

    Anyone have a more up to date and clearer understanding of this?

    1. The article states: During an Industry Day presentation, a military lawyer pointed out that the United States was not a signatory to Hague Conventions that outlawed “dum-dum” ammunition.

      Big problem. If we use HPs on the enemy, they will use them on us. That is not a desirable situation.

    2. Are you seriously afraid that “bad guys” will retaliate against us with hollow point bullets of their own? If bad guys followed the rules or had a “code of honor” they wouldn’t be bad guys. The only reason bad guys don’t use hollow points (some do) is because they are ignorant of them or they are not available in their area. Don’t be a chicken little.

  59. My preferred carry round is 165 or 155 gr, .40 S&W Federal Hydra-shoks in a Glock 23. They will penetrate any clothing up to good body armor, and hit like a ton of bricks. And yet, in the Glock 23 still make for quick follow-up shots. I can have four empties in the air and still hit a 5 gallon bucket at self defense distances with all four rounds.

    1. You can’t beat the 10mm for effect. And in a full size gun like the 1911, they are not a control problem. However, for concealed carry I prefer something a little lighter than a 1911. If I had to carry a full sized gun–1911 or Glock in 10mm.

  60. I do not see how the Army can say they are going to or even thinking of going to something other than full metal jacket which was mandated by the Geneva Convention at the wnd of WWI.

  61. I carry a Kimbe CDP Pro II. I use the HST HP and Winchester Ranger T as carry loads. The military will most likely keep 9mm for NATO reasons. As far as HP vs. FMJ, why not allow the troops decide as they deem necessary? I agree with Punisher. The FMJ will serve better if confronted against combatants wearing more and the HP better against those wearing less. Also, there’s still that “wound ’em and they’ll need help to take their wounded off the battlefield” thinking.

    1. Do you people listen to yourselves? Obama alternates between being a completely ineffectual, incompetent dolt, and an evil genius with ability to alter the function of entire independent bureaucracies with the snap of a finger.

      He’s either a Muslim or he’s in thrall to Christian pastor Wright.

      The troops hate and disrespect him, or he’s convinced them to commit treason and take over vast swaths of the southwest during Jade Helm. Hyperinflation is coming!, no, wait it’s another Great Depression! The sky is falling!

      I’m an avid shooter, and no fan of this president, but Jeez guys, you’re making us look crazy.

    2. Thank you! I get tired of saying the same things to the same people. It embarrasses me to hear it.

  62. The Army will spend $100+ million on studies, then conclude 9mm works best with Hornady Critical Duty or Winchester Rangers. If they’re smart (they’re bureaucrats therefore not) they’ll select the ever so humble Glock 17 or 19, and call it good.

  63. Will our army switch to hollow-point? The answer: No. Because we might end up hurting or offending someone. It would be mean spirited.

  64. It is illegal for the military to use anything but FMJ ammo.
    Military ammo is designed to wound first. Its main priority is not to kill.

    1. “Military ammo is designed to wound not kill” hahahahaha! I get so embarrassed when I hear someone spout that fallacy as if it were gospel and they are the St. Peter of firearms. Hit the books, my ignorant friend.

  65. carrying a Sig 9mm in Afg and IZ (instead of the wretched M92), I just never felt comfortable until I picked up my HK full auto 416…it’s the Book of Eli out there and you need capacity and power….

  66. Isn’t that a violation of international law? I thought the use of hollow points, or expanding ammo was “illegal”.

  67. …don’t really want to advise in case they point their cannons at US Citizens. How many billion rounds of hollow point .556/.233 has the government already purchased (not to mention all the other semi auto calibers)? As a result we’ve seen ammo shortages, and extreme increases in price. Of course we’ve heard the fabricated stories that it was not the govt buying up all the ammo, but US civilians hoarding all the projectiles. We know not to believe most of what is reported, and less than half of what we actually see… Oh and by the way, join the NRA today if you’re not already a member. It’s that important.

    1. Every gun supplies catalog or website that I’ve seen in the past few years has featured waterproof drums and boxes for storing your emergency gear, including ammo, underground. If these aren’t being used by civilians to hoard ammo I’ll eat my hat.

  68. Dave Dolbee is a IDIOT. In his closing, he sites sequestration as the cause of the spending cuts. Sequestration was and IS the Limiting of the Amount of INCREASE in the WASTE that is going on.
    Liberals are All alike, just can not wait to try to Exploit Anything Positive and turn it into a Negative.

    1. Perhaps you should go back and read it again; as for the personal attack, I wear it like a badge of honor. I am too old to be offended by name calling, but I see why you picked BigKid as your screen name. However to the point, in sequestration or sequester, Defense spending is lowered by 10% (in 2013) which decreases to 8.5% (in 2021), for a total estimated spending reduction of $454 billion. Or perhaps if numbers are not your thing we could simply look to U.S. Army Brigadier General Randy George to inquire if he is a liberal, an idiot or simply got it wrong when he said, “Unfortunately under sequestration and automatic budget cuts, today’s announcement may not be the last,” when speaking to reporters about the current fiscal environment that will reduce the Army’s ranks from its current state of 490,000 soldiers to 450,000. CNN and the Army’s director of force management must have been duped into reporting, “The Army will cut 40,000 troops from its ranks by 2017 as part of a new round of reductions brought on by constraints in the federal budget, the Army’s director of force management said Thursday.” The Army Times (not exactly a liberal rag) said, “The cuts to the Army could go even deeper if sequestration returns in fiscal 2016, which begins Oct. 1. The Army could shrink to 420,000 active-duty soldiers by fiscal 2019 if those automatic budget cuts are triggered.” The list goes on – Google it. ~Dave Dolbee

  69. Better be careful and try ammo first. My Springfield 1911 does not feed or cycle hollow point ammo. Bullet hollow at nose hangs just below barrel and gun jambs open breach 100 %. Reg jacketed bullets cycle fine.

    1. has the feedramp been checked? sometimes they can be rough when the pistol comes from the factory.

    2. My Springfield 1911 trophy match will digest any type of ammo I feed it. That is what you want. You need to have it fixed by a good smith.

    3. I agree with the others that any 1911 should be able to eat commercial hollow-points. I’d also point out that if HP’s can’t get past the feed ramp, it means that FMJ’s are only barely making it past–your gun is likely very close to malfunctioning even with FMJ.
      It’s probably a simple fix–a gunsmith should be able to reshape/polish the ramp so that everything feeds, and you’ll have a much more reliable firearm.

  70. The Govt. sure knows how to make a mountain out of a molehill . How about just making both types of ammo available and leaving it up to the Division Commander or Battalion Commander or the Company Commander depending on the nature of the operation. I’m not saying to warehouse twice the ammo , but clearly there for two different adversaries . If your going to use HP ammo against regular troops who are wearing hard vests you could have a problem , on the other hand HP ammo would be preferred for some skinny terrorist in Afghanistan wearing a tent. The M855 problem comes up all over again as it relates to soft targets only now they are talking about the problem in pistol calibers. I say maintain the availability of both for use at the CO’s discretion.

    1. Punnisher has the right idea on this. Hollow points against regular troops wearing bullet resistant vests and lots of gear on their body that will stop/hinder bullets aren’t going to be of much use. For those guys you need penetration, not “stopping power”.

  71. I use hollowpoint +P in all my semi auto’s. I know with the 45 if I hit them in the hand, it would spin them around, and give you a chance for a follow up shot. Or, if they were wearing body armor, it would knock them down and give you a chance to make a head shot.

  72. Based on a year in combat in Vietnam, i will stick with FMJ because HP tends to create reliability problems in magazines in field use. It’s not like at the range, or even urban carry in city streets. Maybe the HP with a plastic nose would work…but a simple bullet that hits the target is more damaging than a complex one t hat stays in the gun.

  73. 45 Federal HST 230 grain hollow points. Great carry tools ; ) A little expensive, but you get what you pay for. If you can’t handle the problems with a total of 27 rounds, you are overseas and in the USA. Anyways, The terrorists are allowed to use suicide bomber jackets, bombs, and thousands of head choppings. Why can’t we use hollow points? The UN? Forget the UN. Evict the UN from the United States of America. The Hague convention? Forget the Hag. Stand and fight for the USA people! Lets stand and fight to make this the greatest and most powerful country again just like it was from 1940 to 1990

  74. My guess is they will either go with some new 9mm loading, heavier bullet, higher pressure, something like a +P+ or the currently available .40 S&W. They won’t likely go back to the .45 ACP for the same reasons they abandoned it previously, heavier, less capacity, more expensive. That being said, the .45 is the preferred caliber for much of Spec-Ops and is being used in significant numbers as we speak. That isn’t likely to change as those folks know what they need and the 9mm can’t deliver.
    As all of us, I have my bias. I only carry and shoot the .45 ACP for target and defensive purposes. I obviously use magnum calibers to hunt with, but find the .45 to be more than adequate as protection from large animal attacks in the Alaska bush. My preferred piece is a good old 1911. I haven’t found another gun to be as accurate and comfortable to shoot. I’m not a small guy so that probably has something to do with my personal comfort. For concealed carry I generally pack a Springfield XDS 3.3. For winter carry I often use the Springfield Compact .45 when wearing bulkier clothing.

  75. The point in using high powered ammo against an enemy is to quickly kill or incapacitate him. Who really gives a damn if our ammo is HP or another type of bullet. I will be as humane as my enemy is to me. Nothing but center of mass or a head shot will do the job. Unless you have no choice it should be one shot one kill and nothing smaller than .45 ACP or 7.62×51 (.308). That is my idea of being humane.

  76. The “hoarded hollowpoints” are used by the 40,000 Coast Guardsmen. In 2005 the Coast Guard dumped the 9mm for the .40 Sig 229 rdak. Withe their unique double duty, they use military hardball for ship boardings on foreign national ships, and hollow points for duty inconus. You can figure each man has to qualify twice a year on his sidearm, m-4 carbine and .12g shotgun or he can’t do boat duty. (Which is very rare) they shoot practical courses. That ammo has to be stockpiled.
    It’s harder to get then military ball. Then of course you have the FBI, the Boarder Patrol, Secret Service and all of the units in Homeland. In case of an attack on the U.S. allof these units need.rounds before anything happens. Now they’re pretty much caught up.

  77. Hollow poi.ys may stop in the target they are shooting g but if that target is wearing body armor, well they are going to be worthless. I saw stay with the ball and go back to the .45 across the board. I carry a P220 with hollow point but have an additional mag of ball just in case. IYAOYAS!

  78. I was always given to understand that wounding, preferably badly wounding, an enemy combatant was preferable to actually killing him. The extra people he would need to care for him would reduce the number of combatants the enemy could field. It seems that this still applies, even we are legally “allowed” to use hollow points on an enemy that was not “a politically certified military force of another signatory”.

  79. Let them shoot what they want. Who is going to argue with America the UN? I prefer FMJ for practice. I use something else for hunting.

  80. The ammunition used by snipers and SpecOps are not hollow point, the are OTM Open Tip Match, the exceptions being the .50Cal rifles which have a varity of ammo, Black Hills ammo made the 5.56 77gr OTM used by SpecOps, Lake City, Federal, and Black Hills made the OTM used by snipers in 7.62X51, .300WinMag and .338 Lapua Mag. OTM is considerably different from hollow point in that it is not made to expand, but designed that way for ballistic coefficent reasons.

    1. Shooter, I’ve been reloading for over 40 years and I had never heard of OTM bullets before your post. Since I’m not so arrogant I believe I can’t learn something I decided to do a little research. I first checked the reloading manuals of the top three bullet manufacturers. Sierra, Nosler, and Hornady. All three referred to every target bullet they made as BTHP Match. Or Boat Tail Hollow Point Match. The manuals do explain that match is not engineered for expansion and is not recommended for hunting, but they still call it a hollow point. I checked Federal’s website and I did find they use the designation OTM on their American Eagle target ammo. It is there economical line. They also had two lines of target ammo that used Sierra match bullets. That was designated as BTHP Match. It was also a lot more expensive. I did a little more research and found the same answer again and again. OTM is a just a hollow point. It is a process where the jacket is formed in such a way as to leave a hollow cavity inside the jacket, starting the point of the bullet. Hollow Point. OTM is just as a marketing ploy they hope will make users think that their ammo is somehow different than the established manufactures. To say that an OTM bullet is not a hollow point is like saying that a chimpanzee is not an ape. It is, by the way, an ape. Not a monkey. As for what the snipers use, well I checked that out too. The ammo they use is dictated by the objective. Some objectives call for the use of FMJ. Some call for BTHP match, or OTM if you prefer, and some call for a rapidly expanding bullet, BTHP.

    2. OTM, BTHP and HPBT are the same, just different terminology. The military uses OTM probably for PC reasons. You can search for OTM bullets on Bing and find several posts including one from Berger bullets.

  81. My personal carry pistol is the S&W version of the lightweight 1911-A1 Commander in a De Santos Sky Marshall cross draw holster. I have a Texas CCW and am disabled to the extent I use a power wheelchair. The Commander is loaded with either Speer 200 grain Gold Dot, or Hornaday 200 grain XPT ammo. I have tested both of these rounds in this pistol and on the range regularly shoot sub 4” groups seated in my wheelchair. Although I have not tested expansion and penetration the literature is quite consistent on the acceptability of these two rounds.

    Due to my disability, carrying in a more normal position makes drawing from a seated position all but impossible. I know the argument that the cross draw position exposes the pistol to an opponent; however that opponent would have to be very close and bent over to reach the grip of the pistol when I’m seated in a power wheelchair. I do not want to carry off body as if someone dumped me from the chair I would be unarmed.

  82. Now the federal government will be able to use those billions of rounds of hollow point ammo the DHS bought for ‘practice’.

  83. I find it hard to believe that we are entertaining following a law that is a 100 years old. I think we should stop doing the “correct” thing and instead doing something that helps our young soldiers. Myself, I have been carrying for the last 40 years. During that time I have never used FMJ for anything except target practice. If we’re concerned about budget constraints, let’s sell the FMJ surplus ammo to our enemies and save the Hollow Points for our soldiers.

    1. Um, no. Do not sell ANYTHING to the enemy, put it out to the civilian market for range ammo! I know what your point is, but brother I encourage you lets not give or sell to them anything of any advantage.

  84. Well let me preface this with ” I have not been in combat”. But I have to agree with the use of HP ammo if only to help stop collateral damage.
    My problem is –Where does this go? To possibly exploding bullets or bullets tipped with cyanide? It’s called escalation, folks.
    On the other side of the scale I can only imagine that if you are under attack from people who don’t give a damn what they use to kill you–that you will use whatever means you have at hand to save and protect yourself & your buddy who has your back. I wish I had an answer for war but if there is one start looking at the top–It seems to start from there.

  85. That is the dumbest law they ever passed was to not allow hollow points!… I think they definitely should be allowed to use them!!! I carry a 10mm FS 1911 or sometimes a ruger SR45 on me at ALL times!!! This f-ed up world we live in today is no place to take a chance to be caught without a weapon EVER!!!

  86. The only international legal agreement the US has signed which relates to ammunition used by armed forces of the US was the 1907 Hague Convention. There is no NATO specific legal document, only that only the then signatory sovereign states who did sign the 1907 Hague Convention will follow such convention when within NATO operations, IIRC. The 1907 Hague Convention document only states that humane weapons should be used, but it does not say anything specifically about any munitions type, including what is known today in the US as “Hollow Point”.

    The US chose FMJ munitions because of cost and accuracy and because it met the spirit of the 1907 agreement during WW1 and this practice was continued during WW2 through Vietnam. Sometime after the invasion of Iraq, IIRC, JAG proposed that since the Hague Convention specifically states that the Article 23 (e) only applies if the opposing force is a politically certified military force of another signatory, it was OK to use any other type of munition. IIRC, there had been use of other types of munitions in Vietnam using the same legal precedent in battles with the VC by US Army SOG, so this was nothing new legally.

    So the law does not restrict the use of any type of bullet design in military munitions unless the opposing force is a certified and officially announced as a true military force operating legally under another sovereign country signatory of the 1907 Hague Convention. Terrorists, domestic opposition, law enforcement are not restricted to “humane ammunition”. In addition “Hollow Point” is not defined in any international law the United State Armed Forces must adhere to by treaty. If any type of munition is to be affected, if only by historical inference, is soft point or “Dum Dum” ammunition because it was the only munitions type identified (but not defined) in the 1898 Hague Convention of which the United States was NOT a signatory.

    1. There was a “Geneva Convention”, and a “Hague Accords”, but no “Hague Convention”…the US is signatory party to GC, but not HA. ;- )

    2. Here’s Britannica on the 1907 Hague Convention:

      http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hague-Conventions

      In any case, the US signed the document which is called a legal declaration or convention (among a number of conventions and resolutions signed) and the documents are collectively known as the 1907 Hague Convention. They were signed as international treaty agreements and approved by Congress.

  87. O’bamao is doing his best to give Iran the nuke under agreements they will never keep but, we’re concerned about a small arm HP round? Ludicrous.

    1. I was reading these often well informed comments with great interest, and then, of course, came upon the inevitable anti-Obama snipe. No online discussion lacks at least a few of these. My thanks to the rest of you for interesting information.

  88. There are advantages to a full metal jacket in handgun cartridges. They will penetrate a vehicle door or metal door without breaking apart from over expansion. As for the .45ACP, the military has tried repeatedly since it’s introduction to go to a more wimpy cartridge but learned during The Philippine Insurrection, The Span Am War, and WW1, They go back to the .45 because it is a proven man stopper. especially against a crazed or drugged enemy.

  89. The only reason they would use HP ammo is if they were shooting
    at American citizens. The Geneva convention mandates FMJ for
    everything else. Makes me think martial law may be close.

    1. I have to agree Mike…..AND the bone heads don’t seem to take into consideration, that if they start using the HP then the enemy will too! I am sure it will be soon that the Obamites will finally show their real intentions at staying in power, if they wait much longer then public opinion will turn on Hildabeast. I also see a one party power structure, where Obama and Hillary swap seats every 8 years until there is a revolution and a reborn USA!

    2. Yes, this is rather suspicious our Army Military Police are interested in using JHP ammo. There are War Time rules against using this ammo in combat. So, just who is this ammo really going to be used on? It appears to be for a Non-War Time Situation. Most likely for civilian situations. Remember Obama ordered billions of JHP ammo for HLS. That a bit much for one department of government. Also given our governments current use of mostly .9mm pistols you can reasonable guess it will continue to be the .9mm with JHP hotter ammo.

  90. Rules for war – ROFL – seriously, the only hollow points we don’t need are sitting behind desks at the Pentagon.

    1. Natty, first let me tell you that I like your handle, having grown up in Natty Bumpo country. Great Americana.

      Second, agreed. HP ammo makes sense in a world where the enemy doesn’t quit because they are wounded. I’ll tell you a true story.

      At a compound in Lashkar Gah, Helmand province, a local came to the gate and asked to be let in. Our local guard refused and the guy said he didn’t want to hurt any Afghans, he was only there to kill Americans. The guard shot him point blank in the chest with an AK with FMJ. As the guy fell backward, he detonated his suicide vest. Fortunately, the way the vest had been constructed, most of the force of the blast went straight up and the two guards survived.

      I don’t know if an HP round would have done enough damage that he wouldn’t have been able to detonate his vest after a round in the chest, but why not give the good guys any advantage possible?

      The ROW were formulated by politicians in a different era when at least most sides adhered to them. That time is long gone and you either give your troops every possible advantage or the other guy wins. Police use HP, civilians use HP, why are we tying our troops hands?

    1. I was wrong about the Geneva convention setting the rules of weapons used in war. The Geneva convention only deals with the treatment of civilians and military persons. The Hague convention deals with the use of weapons. The first in 1899 and the second in 1907. By the way the enforcement of the Geneva convection is left to the U.N. AND since WE are a member of the U.N. that makes us a member by proxy.

    2. Ironic how many domestic govt agencies have stocked up on HP. Maybe this will justify our govt use on the citizens to more effectively exterminate us “useless eaters”

  91. Given the present use of 9mm, my bet is it stays that way. It’s too expensive to switch and I think the 9mm already is a good round for warfare. It’s not about lethality. Just look at the 5.56×45. I think it is time to abolish any known ban on hollow point ammunition. We already use expanding grenades, RPG, mortars, bombs. Gees, a bullet that expands seems like a non-issue. And it would make the 9 more effective on soft targets for sure. I own both .40 and 9mm. I prefer the .40 as a best compromise between .45 and 9mm: High capacity, good energy and momentum of the slug, moderate hole size and recoil. The 45 is just too big with too much recoil and too little capacity and the rounds are heavy to carry. It’s “overkill”. Why do I have a 9? Well, it’s military standard. And I think it’s important tactically in civilian life to be compatible. Because there are a lot of 9mm cartridges out there if things go south. I do think picking an appropriate cartridge, bullet weight for the 9mm is more critical than the other calibers. There are bad 9mm rounds in my opinion.

  92. The Hague convention made hollow points illegal in warfare a long time ago. Did you really think that our military was that far behind the curve by happenstance?

  93. There seems to be a lot of misinformation regarding international law and hollow-point ammo. It is my understanding that it was a Geneva convention about 100 years ago that outlawed all but FMJ ammo, and the U.S. WAS a signatory to that convention. However, none of our current enemies were signatories to that convention, so we are not bound by it vis-à-vis them. If the NATO convention requires its parties to use FMJ ammo against any and all enemies, then we’re stuck. (Have to read the NATO convention.) As a practical matter, the Obamunists are hell-bent on weakening the U.S. Military, particularly against those waging jihad against us, so a switch to more effective JHP ammo is probably a non-starter at this point. As to what we should do, if we keep the 9mm, we should switch to JHP ammo. Otherwise the .45acp is the only pistol cartridge that has a proven track record of effectiveness with FMJ ammo.

    1. “It is my understanding that it was a Geneva convention about 100 years ago that outlawed all but FMJ ammo”…incorrect.

      The proscription on expanding projectiles was part of Hague Accords, as stated in the article–and the US was never a signatory party to them. There is Army policy restricting use of non-FMJ ammo, though it might not apply to combat with a group like ISIS/ISIL.

      Contact the Army’s ‘Law of Land Warfare’ branch at the Pentagon, for futher info. ;- )

    1. This is one part of the Geneva convention we need to do away with. We’ve seen terrorists go into battle hopped up on adrenaline, stimulants, meth, you name it, and it takes a full magazine of ball ammunition to put one of these bad guys down. What if there are two or three? We have no problem letting local law enforcement use hollow points, why not our armed forces?

    2. What about the MK318? Every thing I’m reading is that the US is free to use open tip or hollow points as general issue ammo.

  94. Hollow point is against international law of war. If the Army switches it’s the administration trying (again) to dry up the ammunition supply for normal, law abiding consumers.

    1. Seriously? You are delusional. How many times to do have to cry wolf about this before you admit that your ideology has superseded your rational thought?

    2. Trusting Obama and his Administration on anything would be delusional and irrational.

    3. So , supporting the use of HP ammo by our armed forces against  ISIS is ” immoral ” because of …. well why exactly ? Is it because It night really kill or disable nore of them while resulting in fewer deaths and injuries to unintended bystanders and even prevent the intended enemy combatant from being able to cripple , maim and murder more actual , intended victims on thei part of the now disabled ISIS shootee ? Is it because HP’s are somehow evil since they do what exactly ? Do they cause more fatal or gruesome injuries than say a homicide bomb  set off by some surviving ISIS fanatic in a crowd of women and children at some later date ? The very same ISIS murderer who had survived by being shot by an liberal approved  ” nore moral ” FMJ bullet as deemed by some group of non-combatant civilians ?  And, naturally , as deemed more  ” moral ” by truly great ethicists , such as perhaps yourself or the creators of the Dum-Dum ban who are on the side of ” true ”  justice and therefore must protect poor , misunderstood ” freedom fighters ” from those stupid , corrupt and morally inferior oppressors of the planet, like those evil Americans ,  who must be prevented from using any effective means to stop or hinder those poor victims of evil Western weapons of colonialist capitalism.Why ” eff ” them for exposing the fact that your superior morality simply aids and abets child muredering , women raping , Christian crucyfing fanatical death cultists and that , conversely , there truly is no real bad intent , much less immorality in using a better method to effectively stop them. Only an immoral hunter would choose to wound an animal vs. quickly kill itv, esp. on purpose. But if the animal attacks you then any weapon that stops it will do. And if that weapon is a superior killer , wounder or incapacitator then it is a better choice to use. Obviously the intent is to kill that animal while avoiding as nuch injury to others as possible.The sooner one kills OR incapacitates permanently a vicious animal or pack of animals the better.  There’s  some real morality.and ” eff ” those that would rather have live terririst murderers define our morality or to support them by doing so from inside our own society.

    4. Well said!

      How many of you supposed gun enthusiasts and people who claim to carry to protect yourself and your loved ones will not carry HP rounds because it might be inhumane to the slime ball who wants to kill you and rape your wife?

      Should I tell my wife she’s no longer allowed to carry HP in her Beretta because it might be too cruel to the guy who tries to assault her?

      This may come as a surprise to some people, but those people facing our troops want to kill them. And if they can capture them alive, they will be tortured and murdered.

  95. They should have adopted hollow point ammo a long time ago. Is the hollow point Mk318 and it’s .308 cousin working well for our military? If the answer is yes might as well switch the sidearm ammo over to hollow points.

  96. NO DOUBT: This ammo is NOT legal in warfare. It was outlawed long before the Geneva Convention. Poor job of researching his topic by the writer. As a retired Editor, I would fire this person ON THE SPOT.
    I can understand why some readers refer to the Geneva Convention in reference to this subject. That also is incorrect.

    The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that are prohibited by the Hague Convention and the United Nations.

    Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of bullets used by civilians and police, which is due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.

    1. Well said sir, very interesting notation of the conventions on projectile qualifications. You may hint me brash in my assessment of wartime projectile use but in my opinion war is not nor never has been ” humane” please don’t take this to mean I am liberal because by no means am I liberal. While the fmj round offers a certain level of survivability, I consider it to be a danger to use in the respect that the target ( as men are trained today) will still fight until he/she is no longer able. I consider the usage of hollow point expansion designed ammo to be more humane as it will increase the damage and use less ammo to incapacitate or eliminate the threat. Thus increasing personal survival chances. I.e. My assessment as war is not meant to be humane, hollow point or expansion designed ammunition would be an asset to military combatants. And in my opinion would insure the survival of those using it, or at least increase the percentage. War is hell and death is eminent in that realm. I invite you thoughts on the subject sir.

    2. Agreed.

      The Hague Convention of 1899 was carried out by politicians in an era that is long gone. Modern HP ammo didn’t even exist then. Armies no longer line up and shot volleys at each other until one side runs away. Back then both sides regularly agreed to truces to recover the dead and wounded and would even help each other’s wound.

      Our enemies now want to torture, murder, behead, crucify, blow up and otherwise slaughter anyone they can. Times change and the enemy has too.

  97. 1. Some of you obviously missed the point that the U.S.A. is NOT a signatory to any treaty that would prohibit the use of hollow point ammunition.

    2. As a Vietnam combat vet, my vote is for .45 acp hollow points (including the Black Talon and its descendents)and 12-ga shotguns with mixed loads (00 buckshot + a ball bearing) I’ve even been known to use a flare gun (and that’s REALLY nasty — and REALLY effective).

    1. Hello Bill! I am a military brat and my late father and my brother are vets form that war, I was lucky enough to get both back home in one piece. I’d like to take the opportunity to say a big THANK YOU SIR, and especially, WELCOME HOME! After the way people treated veterans I feel ashamed of that particular stupidity expressed by those involved in that type of activity. As a military brat, I got to hear the conditions and stories that defined you all as survivors and heroes in my opinion. God Bless you sir.

    2. Buck and ball has become my “Get out of my house” load. CTD sells 12ga Nobel Sport B&B. .65 ball backed up with 6 #1 buck moving 1300+ fps. In close you get massive knockdown and with a 18″ barrel can still hit a man size target at 50+ yards with the ball. This would be a good jungle round if we get mixed up in Africa.

      CTD sells a expanding 20ga shotgun round from Ddupleks. Google images for there Hexolit 32 in 12ga. Lets give our troupes that!

  98. Dumdum ammo was outlawed by most civilized nations because of the damage it caused to the soldiers involved in combat. Hollow point ammo was designed to insure a clean kill of hunted animals due to its hitting power and extra damage after impact. Yes I want our troops well armed but how soon will it be before the dumdums come firing back? I’m for a light tack nuke on the enemy and save our troops for clean up.

  99. When I see an 8 year old headless Christian girl I know it is our moral imperative to wipe ISIS off the map.Who else will do it?This is what Americas role in the world is-to set a moral example through our actions,or lack of. Give our troops whatever the hell they want and next time hope the American people elect someone with moral clarity.

  100. We give them Buck Shot why not HP?What will mess them up more, 1– 9mm HP or 9 #00 buck moving 1325fps ( Win Military grade)?

    Give them what they need!

    1. Well said sir, I concur, war is not a humane event, ammunition that ensures mortality in more cases is a plus to survivability of our boys. Incapacitation and even elimination of the opposition is paramount in any wartime confrontation,

  101. I guess what I would ask anyone who might disagree with allowing our troops to carry hollow points . . . are you going to tell us that you do not use hollow points in your EDC gun?

    But then, maybe you don’t even actually carry a gun every day.

    Well, I and my wife do, and they are all loaded with HP, HTP, Cor Bon and any other hollow point we think might give us an edge and save our lives in an armed encounter.

    Why then, since we have a much lower chance of needing to shoot someone in self defense than our troops might, would we think to limit them to carrying FMJ ball ammo?

  102. beware what you say here as big brother is watching

    if you don’t think so just write something that directly confronts them

    1. lol, well big brother can just deal with it, we still have the first amendment and the second amendment to protect us. I care not what they think. Or see. I am a conservative American Christian, that ought to just plum infuriate them ,lol, this is a public forum and it would serve them well to listen to us as our opinions and assessments of government incompetency is not a threat but a plea for justice in government, removal of corruption and anti American politicians. They know with their big brother monitoring that the majority of Americans are quite dissatisfied with the way things are, and that we the people do not appreciate the ignorance being perpetrated on the people of this country.

    2. Amen Melvin. That someone would even “warn” us of them watching is ridiculous. Lest be be afraid of them, the battle is already won! As they are watching us, WE are watching them. We are not the ignorants they seem to believe us to be and we are not afraid of their watching. We are a larger lobbying, 2nd amendmant supporting, body of united believers than “they” could ever hope to be. Stop being afraid. We are the country we are because men before us were not afraid of the tyrrants. Its offensive to be warned that they are watching… so what! Be careful of what we say? And what if we dont…..? to what extreme do we cowar into a corner of silence while they boldly speak out against US and are subjected to the propaganizing that the media controls our emotions and rationality?! Whomever put forth that warning is indeed a product of that agenda! Nope, not going to be afraid or watch what I say, the 1st amendmant gives me that right, and the 2nd amendmant enforces that. We are Constitutionalists, dont just act like one, be one!

  103. One of the major complaints about the 5.56 round in that it so high speed, that it passes completely though the target making a neat little hole that really doesn’t create enough trauma to put the target down with one or two shots.

    Give our troops every advantage possible. The bad guys don’t conform to all these idiotic rules of war. So we do and they take advantage of it to the detriment of our troops in the filed.

    Well, I know I’m a nobody, but having been in that position my vote is give them what they need to win.

    1. “The bad guys don’t conform to all these idiotic rules of war.”

      That’s fine, as long as you expect no one else to ever follow any rules, written or unwritten. Part of being an American and defending “The American Way” is to be better than the other guy, occupying the moral high ground.

      This is not a way to do that; this is the moral equivalent of waterboarding.

    2. Well, Rick, I don’t know how many years you spent in the Middle East getting IED’d and shot at, but if you feel having the moral high ground somehow offsets the advantages you give away to the enemy, then I bow to your superior morality.

      As for me, having had more than one friend killed, and one even captured and tortured to death, I guess I feel like our troops deserve every advantage we can give them.

    3. It is . . it’s much bigger than the Middle East. It’s the drug cartels in Mexico and Latin America, it’s Boko Harem and Al Shabab in Africa, it’s the Taliban in Afghanistan, it’s Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines, it’s IS in far too many places. And they are all places we send out troops into harms way.

      Rick, it’s global, and we are asking our troops to go to all those places. I have been to most of them. It’s easy to sit back in comfort behind your keyboard and pass judgement, but it’s a very different thing when you’re on the sharp end.

      Think about it. If after you do, you want to pass judgement, then join the ranks of the Liberals sitting and drinking their lattes at Starbucks and telling everyone else what they ought to be doing with no risk to themselves.

      End of conversation, Dude. It’s Friday night and I’m not wasting any more time on this, because if you still believe we should handicap our troops for the sake of some abstract that our enemies will never accept, then this is a waste of time.

    4. “As for me, having had more than one friend killed, and one even captured and tortured to death, I guess I feel like our troops deserve every advantage we can give them.”

      And I will reiterate, “What goes around, comes around.”

      ‘nuf said.

    5. Do you really think anyone cares about what is used against irregular terrorist guerrilla forces? Do you really think the rules of war apply to these people? They use whatever weapon is available to them, totally ignoring rules of war and treatment of prisoners.

    6. So I guess you’re on your way to Syria now to join IS? There truly is no cure for stupidity.

    7. Not even a hollow point?

      Eff you buddy if you equate having sense of propriety with joining ISiS. Up yours.

    8. Rick, really, you just said that? Waht is moral in war about putting any type of bullet into anyone? The object is to kill, period. That is what our troops are trained to do, to aim and shoot center mass in order to make the best “kill-shot” possible. Same with law enforcement, that’s why when cops shoot the perpurtrator usually doesnt survive. The moralness in any of this is that the military force or law enformcement force are using what means are efficiently currently available to protect the greater agenda of communal welfare and being. Unfortunately, it requires some form of tempered and disciplined violence to do this.

      That being said, as the govenment miserably plays its hand in business and healthcare, they blatantly and ignorantly disregard to confir with the people and professionals in the industry they arrempt to regulate. Might a Dr. and a patient have some insight? Same with military, the guys on the ground carrying and utilizing and doing the fighting, I believe they have the better experience in order to express the current needs regarding war time ammunition ballistics and effect. Why do the proverbial try to dictate to the professional what said professional needs to do his/her job? I would bet a majority of combat soldiers would agree alike across the board as to what is needed in combat in regards to calibre and firearm type. The 1847 Colt Walker and its follow up Dragoons, M1 Garand, the Colt 1911, and the M16 are perfect examples of design meeting expectancy and need of their current eras. Listen to the voice of those already serving as they would know what would benefit them according in their current environments. Sounds lately as if its stopping power over capacity and range. Let the collective voice of the professional soldier set the standard.

    9. I concur sir, I would take this opportunity to say THANK YOU, AND WELCOME HOME! War itself is not a humane endeavor , moral high ground is a political advantage not a sanctity of life advantage, war is killing the enemy with whatever means necessary to achieve the bjective ROE’s and convention rulings be damned, “Playing fair” does not nor ever has been a concern of the enemy. Time to give the advantage to our boys and increase their survivability percentages.

  104. Reading this stuff it is obvious

    most of you have never shot anything but a target

    GO DEAR HUNTING with different ammo then come back.

  105. Angel please consider this-Every Friday in Mosques across Iran Muslim clerics preach the the destruction of America and the death of Christians and Jews everywhere.Yet Kerry and Obama are actively seeking to enable those bastards to become a nuclear power.If we -no when we go to war with the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism I want our people to have the most lethal ammo in the world.Yeah Geneva convention.Go to Syria and explain it to them.

    1. Yes indeed, Amen Steve b. Amazing how many TV watching media believing Americans, conservatives and gun owners included, find it hard to believe this could be the case concerning Muslim Mosques and the support Obama and Kerry put behind them. They just cant fathom it could happen with our government. One only needs to remember our own history to acknowledge that our government does indeed tread on its own land and people. We are essentially and outcrop of the British empire at one time, and a group of citizens organize and at some point decide to take on the British Empire! Had we lost, they would have been branded and executed as traitors acting in treason. That was our first US Continental government. The Civil War is another example our government forcing its policy on its people against their will. Look at Vietnam- can you present any facts at all that give any good reason for why we were involved there?! The Nixon scandal? Current gun control laws that absolutely do not hinder or prohibit criminals from accessing firearms and committing crimes with them but we are told that is what they are intended for? Who believes this nonsense? And if you think 911 was really a foreign Muslim attack, you really need to do some research and look at the facts, and especially the missing facts. There is a point in history as the Constitution is being established that our US government was indeed for and by the people and set forth some practical guidelines as to prohibit the government near and abroad from being tryaanical. It is currently not serving in that fashion nor does it have the spirit of that patriotism behind it. These puppets in power now are not in it for the best interest of the American people. Same sex marriage, homosexuality, loosening restrictions on crime and penalty, national feminism, the stalling of death penalty executions, the horrific national out of control budget, the allowance of illegal immigration, gun control, they are designed to weaken the American fabric and are indeed doing it and many had better open their eyes wider, get off of the emotional media roller coaster, and seek out the truth for themselves. Take a look at the native American history in our country if you want to know how well the government takes care of its people!! Stand up, speak out, dont be afraid, vote, and shut off the television set!

  106. Just a few comments from an old Soldier. I carried a 1911 for most of my career. Remember why we adopted the 1911 in the first place. In the Phillipines, the insurrection we faced had a lot of drugged up natives coming at you with a machete high over their heads to split you in half. At the time, we carried 38’s. Even if you shot them, they would fall forward and slice you. We adopted the 45 so that it would blow the attacker backwards. A good weapon for the specific purpose.

    The 45 I carried faced no such THREAT to deal with. We joked that the Max Effective Range was as far as you could throw it. I always tasked my Senior NCO to make sure I had an M16 or M4 under my seat.

    On those few occasions that I was actually in combat, most of what I read here didn’t apply. Typically, I was either so close to the bad guy (as in a MOUT situation in Grenada) that I hit him in the head and the caliber made no difference… or I aimed center mass (in Iraq) at 200 meters and ended up hitting him in the hand, where he fell back into a doorway and was never seen again… MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

    Hollow points also have one distinct advantage that no one seems to address. A FMJ round may easily go through the target and hit a friendly behind him. A hollow point, generally, will stop inside the bad guy, precluding any danger to others.

    But the bottom line is that this is about a sidearm. Sidearms are for last ditch defense… not offensive operations. Again, when I was in a tactical situation, I made sure I had an M16 or an M4. And, oh by the way, someone here mentioned M14. We’re reissuing M14’s to non-school trained unit “designated snipers” in Afghanistan since the Taliban has learned to engage us beyond the range of an M4/M16.

    But this article is about sidearms, not rifles, so we’ll save that discussion for another time.

    1. Hey Bob, man you were in the service for a long time. From the Philippine Insurrection to Irag. I’m just kidding you a little Bob. If someone wanted to they could read that into what you said, but I know what you mean. Thank you for your service. If you served in Grenada you served during a time when this country had several years of peace. We had that piece because men like you were ready and willing to defend her. However your statement is incorrect on two points. The problem with the 38 wasn’t that the enemy fell forward. It was because the 38 didn’t stop them at all. It was not a .38 special we think of when we here “38” today. It had about the same ballistic power as todays .380. You are correct in the fact that they were under the influence of something other than common sence. Wounds from the 38 didn’t impress them. You had to stop either the brain or the heart from functioning. A lung or liver shot didn’t even slow them down. They might die tomorrow or the next day, but they kept coming today. So after the action the military considered going back to the 45 Colt, sometimes called the Long Colt, that the 38 had replaced. However there were men like John Browning developing new types of sidearms. Browning had already developed the 1903. A .32 caliber semi-auto “pocket” pistol. He considered how to modify that pistol for the 45 colt. But with the mag inside the grip, the gun would be just to big. But Browning, being the genius he was, realized he didn’t need all the capacity of the 45 Colt because of modern smokeless powder. So he shortened the case, removed the rim to make it feed better, then designed the 1911 (several years after the end of the conflict) around the .45ACP. Voila, no more problems with wounded enemy still coming. But if they were running forward they still fell forward. No firearm is powerful enough to change that. No matter what Hollywood says.

      As for the second error, this article is about the bullets. The last paragraph just mentions how the bullets available could effect the new sidearm outcome. Gary

  107. I don’t think a hollow point worse than a 5.56 that tumbles when it gets in side you. Like a little meat grinder.

  108. My dad was on USS Wasp CV18 in 1944-45. Every so often a sub would come along side and off load a detachment of Marine Raiders they had picked off some island we did not hold yet.Hard men,dead eyes,did not mingle.They would set up “camp” on the hanger deck in between the bombs that were ready to load on the planes.They would sit there for hours with a “egg beater” hand drill turning there ammo in to dum-dums ONE round at a time! Next morning they were gone. Another sub another island.

  109. Really, and violate the Geneva convention. if we are going to violate one rule let’s just do it all…let me see, next it will be biological, chemical, and why stop there, let’s start building up the nuclear arsenal….is the world totally insane ????

    1. What does the Geneva convention have to do with using hollow points? the types of ammunition used are limited by the Hague convention, which the US never signed.

      And we already have Nuclear, Biological, and chemical weapons in our arsenal.

  110. As someone else already said, the US armed forces should be using the most deadly round currently available. It is silly to use ammo simply because it is more popular with other NATO countries. I understand that “ammo interchangeability” is a real need when two or more armies are deployed together, however, since the US, in every case I am aware of, has many more troops on the ground in every conflict, I think THEY should get compatible with our choices. Cost is always an issue, but knocking down a bad guy as fast as possible is the goal. If you use 9mm FMJ or 5.56 Nato and you are only wounding you are giving the enemy another chance to kill you. I am not an expert in this area, (I was in the Navy on aircraft carriers not patrolling rice paddies in Vietnam) but I have read some articles that both the 9mm and 5.56 Nato were partially chosen because they were “less lethal” and the goal was only to wound and take the bad guy out of action. I think this violates one of the prime goals of going to war: breaking the other sides will to fight. Stacks of dead people littering the landscape tends to convince people that they DO NOT want to go up against the US military. I have also read articles about Vietnam era veterans wanting use the .308 as the next battle rifle standard, but that Nato compatibility won out and the 5.56 was chosen. I have heard that the Army is looking for a more lethal standard issue hand gun and battle rifle round this time around. I am a proponent of hollow point in any of 9mm, .40 and .45 for hand guns and .308, 7.62 or maybe the 300 black out for battle rifle. If I’m carrying hollow points to knock out a drug addict who may be threatening me or my family I can’t see any reason why our men in harms way shouldn’t have the same.

    1. “goal was only to wound and take the bad guy out of action. I think this violates one of the prime goals of going to war: breaking the other sides will to fight. ”

      Well, yes and no. From a strategy point of view it’s much better to badly wound your adversary than to kill him. The former ties up the adversaries’ resources and removes him from combat, while killing him only does the latter.

    2. The 5.56 caliber was chosen in Viet Nam, because more rounds could be carried by troops in the field for the same total weight. This was important with the widespread use of fully automatic or select fire weapons. Another consideration was that jungle fighting took place at closer ranges, so the extended range of the 7.62 / .308 was not required.

    3. Jim in Houston, et al. Was at that little dust up in S.E.A.. 1st generation 16’s were there at the time. Were easy to jam, any dust or moisture would put them out of action. Worst of all was, ‘no forward assist’. Since charging handle disconnected once the weapon was cocked, any jams had to be driven out with steel cleaning rods down the barrel. The C.O. of my unit absolutely hated them. We carried the M-14, with basic load of 200 rounds. Great deal of weight, but the extra weight was negated by the extra fire power and range that the 14 gave us over the 16. Got into a sparing match with a V.C. sniper carrying a Mosien Nagant, 91/30, at 600 meters, something that wouldn’t have been possible with the 16. Saved my life and the life of the work detail I’d been sent to protect.

    4. I totally agree with you and pretty much all you had to say. The objective of war is to kill your enemies. This may sound cruel but it’s a fact of war. You just can’t a chance that the person you just shot won’t get up and attempt to kill you. If you shot me and I was able to get up your damn right i’m gonna shoot back to kill.

    5. The reason FMJ is favored by the military is accuracy and accuracy at long distance. Unlike urban settings and in urban settings overseas, the military engages at the maximum effective range of the weapon, not risking a close up advantage where a less accurate weapon such as an AK-47, might have the advantage of spray & pray. Whereas the M16/M4 maximum effective ranges are between 450m to 550m, the M14/M240B 600m, anything beyond that you would need a scope to be accurate.
      Hollow points are only accurate and short ranges and do not travel the distance desired by the military, not to mention that they do not pierce light cover.
      You might want to ask the close to 2mil. Arab sheetheads, in their graves, how lethal the FMJs are.
      The scope & purpose of the military rounds has not changed UNLESS the military will be used to fire on civilians, as in use them against the population in a martial law scenario, not even then, possible maybe.

    6. Really. Hollow points aren’t accurate! Are you nuts. Look in any bullet manufacturers catalogue and everyone of there match bullets in every caliber is described as BTHP Match. That is “boat tail hollow point match”. Ever been to the Wimbledon matches. Not the tennis matches but the 1000yd rifle match. The line is full of Hollow point bullets. Every long range accuracy record I know of is held by some one using BTHP bullets. If you read this article it spoke of how Snipers have been using hollow points in some situations already. I’m not a sniper but I would bet that is because hollow points give you maximum long range accuracy, maximum effectiveness, and minimal collateral damage behind the target. I have tied my best not to insult people who post on these and other blogs, but some of the posters on this issue just don’t have a clue what they are talking about. That is just the hollow point issue. Then there is the issue of not risking close up combat. Have not seen the news in the last 15 years. We are engaging in urban combat. Not just in the streets, but sometimes inside buildings. Our military has always taken on the enemy wherever it is. That is why we haven’t had a war fought on our soil in over 200 years. Even when the Japanese attacked Hawaii they didn’t invade. Admiral Yamamoto, who went to college in the US, warned “It would be foolish to invade the United States. The citizens own there own firearms. They have a rifle behind every blade of grass.”

    7. “Really. Hollow points aren’t accurate! Are you nuts. Look in any bullet manufacturers catalogue and everyone of there match bullets in every caliber is described as BTHP Match. That is “boat tail hollow point match”. Ever been to the Wimbledon matches. Not the tennis matches but the 1000yd rifle match. The line is full of Hollow point bullets. Every long range accuracy record I know of is held by some one using BTHP bullets. ”

      Off the top of my head and without doing any research, I’d think the laws of physics and aerodynamics would say otherwise, that having a scoop on the front of the bullet (vs a cone) would cause too much resistance and drop over long distances.

    8. Rick when you quote me in your post, then make a statement to contradict me your either calling me a liar, or your calling the people I spoke of stupid. Because of that I started with a reply that would be insulting and make you look like a fool. I deleted all that and decided to educate instead of insult. It is the laws of physics and aerodynamics that make the hollow point more accurate than the full metal jacket, or even the pointed soft point. First the physics. Every bullet has two numbers that represent it’s performance characteristics. They are sectional density, and ballistic coefficient. Sectional density is just a measure of the bullets weight compared to it’s diameter, or caliber. For example a .30cal bullet that weighs 150gr. has a certain SD. If it is 170gr. the SD will be higher. If it is 130gr. the SD will be lower. If that 150gr. bullet is .277cal.(ie 270 Winchester) The SD will be higher than a .30 cal. because of the smaller diameter. If the bullet is .32 cal then the SD will be smaller. Hoping you understand this now I’ll will move on. The other number and the more important number for our conversation is the Ballistic Coefficient. BC takes into account the SD and other things such as bullet length, shape of the nose, shape of the ogive,(the curve from the nose to the side), and the shape of the base of the bullet. The higher the BC the better the bullets ignors outside forces such as wind and barometric pressure. Yes barometric pressure has a direct affect on the drag on a bullet. I already know you don’t trust my knowledge so I’m tempted to explain how the BC is arrived at, but everyone else here who already knows are right now praying I don’t take the necessary time and space to explain it, so I won’t. Please just trust me when I tell you that the higher the BC, the more accurate the bullet tends to be, and HPs always have a higher BC. Now for the aerodynamics. Those knowledgeable among are saying “but BC is part of aerodynamics”. Well yes it is but I’m not going to discuss that here except for what I’ve already said. It is just to much info to soon, Every projectile moving through air has a center of gravity. It doesn’t matter if it is a rock, an arrow, a bullet, or an airplane, the more surface area behind the CG the more stable the projectile is. Think about the feathers on an arrow. What would happen if they were on the front of the arrow. Stupid idea right. Using a hollow cavity in the front of the bullet moves the CG forward without adding weight. So there is more surface area behind the CG. Using a boat tail base adds even more surface area. As for the “scoop” you spoke of, well it’s not a scoop. A scoop is one sided and that wouldn’t work on a bullet. It is a hole. A hole that allows air to get in, but it can’t get out. Long before the bullet evens exits the barrel the hollow cavity is full of ram air, or compressed air. The air compressed inside the bullet keeps more air form getting in and therefore it has no effect on aerodynamics. This same process is used in some hydrodynamic situations as well. The fact that the hole is made out of copper and not soft lead means it is less likely to be damaged or deformed. Therefor it is more aerodynamic. Therefor it is more accurate. I would get into how the boat tail improves accuracy, but that was not one of your topics and my wife says supper is ready. So I hope that helps. Gary

    9. Gary, thank you for the educational reply.

      In my defense, however, I did say, “Off the top of my head and without doing any research.” When I’m guessing, or don’t know what I’m talking about, I do label it as such.

      The “Long before the bullet evens exits the barrel the hollow cavity is full of ram air, or compressed air. The air compressed inside the bullet keeps more air form getting in and therefore it has no effect on aerodynamics” was the key thing that I was overlooking.

    10. Excellent explanation. I just started hand loading. I was going to comment about the “match grade” HP too, but your explanation was stated so much better that I could have said it. I shoot the 7mm Remington Mag. And prefer the 150 to 175 gr ballistic tip for hunting. And 139 gr. Hornady soft points for self “defense” hunting, effective ranges out to about 800 yards or so…. Thanks for setting it correct.

  111. Since we lack the intestinal fortitude to buck political correctness and exclude pansies and wimps from combat, we are going to have to keep recoil energy mild. Ironically the one round most likely to be excluded under such logic is the .40. Slide operating ergonomics will also need to be considered, again making the 9 and 45 more likely to succeed as compared to.40. Energy wise both 9 and 45 run 300 to 400 ftlb,whereas .40 can run 400-500 in commercial loads. 300 is cake for nearly any trained shooter but 500 will fatigue all but the most beastly grunts.
    Glock now offers a .45 in the 9mm slide width. Barrel and spring change could convert the upper between 9&45. A special 9mm mag to fit the 45 mag well would complete the modularity. 9mm users could still be issued the model 17frame.
    Best compromise might be to resurrect .45 gap which would enable both 9mm and 45 in the smaller grip frame and would retain the barrel swapping capabilities within the slide. Average Troup would be issued 45gap and petite privates would carry the 9mm version

  112. Our troops should be using the most effective round, and cost should only be a secondary consideration. They are risking thier lives for us, give them the best weapons available without compromise.

  113. The Army should have never stopped using the 1911. The 9 MM is a nice weapon, but they train you to fire twice, double tap because the first round will not stop your target let alone enter, but the second round will, sure the 9 MM has a larger magazine, but when you have to double tap what good is it. My Glock Model 21 is a 45 semi I use Gold Dot 230 Grain Hollow point, who wants to waste ammo in a fire fight. Like the sniper one shot one kill and if you run you will only die tired. Do the math.

    1. New JHP technologies make 9mm just as powerful as the 45. People like you need to never talk to people about guns and calibers whether online or in person. I guarantee that if you ever saw combat, especially CQB that you would waste a great deal of ammo and you would be startled and shaken. Real combat is different than going to a range and firing your crap 1911. Low crawl through mud, sand, and dirt for 100 yards with ANY 1911 on your plate carrier and I promise you it will malfunction when you try to use it. Guys, when you advocate for 1911s and 45 ACP all you’re doing is telling everyone else how small your manhood is and how little you truly do know about ballistics and weapons.

    2. Danny, I have been in combat, first in Vietnam, the half a dozen other brush wars at various times and places as a PMC/PSC. I have used handguns in CQB, the 9, the .45 ACP , 7.62 x 25, .45 (Long) Colt in a Smith 25-5. Give me the heavier, if somewhat, slower round any time. I’ve studied ballistics, too, of most popular rounds. Size of manhood doesn’t even enter the equation. Few, in the know, would question the veracity of Col. Jeff Cooper, (USMC, deceased). He, only, carried a 1911-A1 in .45 ACP, but advocated it as the only logical side arm that the military should use. If you haven’t heard of him, Google, him, you might just learn a thing or two.

    3. Hey Roy, You must type faster than I do. I want to clarify, my comments below are directed to Danny. Not you. Thank You for our service to our country. Gary

    4. Sorry bud, but you are the one showing your ignorance.(ignorance is lack of knowledge, not intelligence). No amount of bullet technology is going to make the 9mm more powerful than the .45ACP. Not the JHP, FMJ, Ballistic tip, or any other bullet is going to give the 9mm more power. That has to be done with powders, primers, and barrel length. When the US adopted the 9mm as their service cartridge every expert agreed it would not be as effective as the .45. The military felt it was effective enough so It was adopted for three reasons. More ammo in the gun. More ammo in your pocket. More ammo available if you have to scavenge for it. With todays bullets and powders the 9mm is more than powerful enough for most self defense and military purposes. But to say it is more powerful than a .45 just shows your lack of knowledge(ignorance). Some (special) units of the marines went back to the .45ACP years ago and are still using it, because the 9mm wasn’t getting “their” job done. So for those tasked with deciding what the everyday soldier carries the issue is. Fifteen-eighteen rounds of ammo in a gun that will “nearly” always get the job done, or eight rounds in a gun that can stop a bull moose. Even if it hits body armor they’re not going to want to get up and take another round. I have never been in combat so I won’t show my own ignorance by speculating which would serve our troops better. One last thing worth noting. Sig makes a .45ACP with a twelve round capacity. When I first heard of it I thought “It must have a grip like a baseball bat”. Then my neighbor bought one. I should mention that he is a full time, active duty, E7 in the Army National Guard. He loves the Sig. I’ve held it and the grip is not uncomfortably or even unusually large.

    5. Well said.
      I might add that everyone in a military graveyard killed by small arms fire was killed with a FMJ bullet.

    6. Danny, how are you supposed to “low crawl” with a plate carrier or a chest rig with all sorts of equipment strapped to the front of you? For the life of me I will never understand that. I’m sure there are also plenty of other older service members who look at todays battle gear and shake their heads in disbelief. I have nothing against armor and chest plates, but the addition of magazine pouches, holsters, grenades, and every other piece of equipment only means you cannot truly get down in the dirt. In my day you didn’t have to worry about dragging your magazines, sidearm, and every other piece of happy horses*%t attached to your chest in the mud and dirt hoping it was crammed full of gunga when you needed it most. You also didn’t have to worry about elevating you rifle because you six or eight inches above it due to your equipment. I’ve had my 1911 so dirty that you would think that there would be no way it could function, but it has never let me down whether it was full of sand, mud, fouling from several hundred rounds, or a combination any of the three or all three. I don’t carry a 1911 because of the lack of size of my manhood. I carry a 1911 because it fits my hands well, and I am very effective with it. I’m sure your wife/mother would agree on both counts!

  114. Nowhere in this article are the implications of our adversaries using the same mentioned. The Soviets never signed the Geneva Convention. The Germans and the US did, so in WWII our POWs were treated comparatively well (of course there were exceptions), and the Germans and Soviets treated their prisoners worse than dogs.

    What goes around comes around….

    1. Rick you have been getting a lot of heat from the other bloggers because you try to take the moral high ground on this hollow point issue. I can’t disagree with their reasons for feeling the way they do. I know on Sept. 11 2001 I wanted to see the entire Middle East turned to glass. Glass is created by subjecting sand to intense heat and pressure. You know like that created by nuclear fission. That being said I admire your philosophy and would to think the US has always tried to do the same. However there is truly a moral high ground to be claimed by using the hollow point bullets. We no longer battle in the fields and hedge rows of Europe. Or the rice patties and jungles of Vietnam. We are now fighting in city streets and even inside buildings and homes. When a fmj bullet hits tissue, glass, or even sheet rock and paneling, it goes on and on and on. Causing collateral damage to people and property behind the combatant you were aiming at. A hollow point designed for expansion upon contact with tissue will stop there. Even a miss will be deflected and loose great amounts of energy as soon as it contacts anything. So the moral high ground here is that with hollow points we are stopping more enemy combatants, who may not be welcome there to start with, but we are also creating for less collateral damage.

    1. I believe the Hague Accord, article 4 covers hollow point ammunition. However the USA never signed off on article 4. It has only been signed by less than forty nations.

      I don’t think the Taliban nor ISIS are signatories either.

    2. @ Francis Lynch.

      During WW2, it was a Unwritten Rule. That if you were caught using and/or having Dum Dums either in possession or in your weapon. Was cause for Immediate Execution…

    3. Who cares?

      Do the terrorists conform to the GC? Has any enemy we’ve ever fought? It’s easy for politicians and Liberal do-gooders. But are they on the sharp end?

      No, and they never will be. Give our troops every advantage possible. I have been in combat, and i couldn’t care less for these stupid artificial conventions.

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