News

LA Times Headline: “Why the Police Shouldn’t use Glocks” — Are You Nuts?

Reading an anti-gun rant in the Los Angeles Times is hardly a surprise or news. Therefore, when I read a recent Opinion piece (Op-Ed) bashing Glocks, I hardly raised an eyebrow. However, I almost lost my lunch over the babble and bias when I read the footer and realized this article was from the editor of Bearing Arms, Bob Owens. I quickly raced back to the top to read and confirm the author. Sue enough, the by line matched the footer.

Glock-23-4As an editor, I have heard more than one writer claim a text edit changed the meaning of a term. Fair enough. However, this is not the case with Owens’ “Why the Police Shouldn’t Use Glocks” article. Even the title is deceptive, because the whole article reads like an indictment on guns.

The Backstory

Owens starts by naming off a few police shootings over the past decade or so where a rookie officer is startled, draws and fires, negligently discharging his pistol. In one incident, a New York police officer’s finger was inappropriately on the trigger when he was startled and discharged his pistol—a Glock—shooting and killing an innocent civilian.

In another case, Owens points out, while in the act of pushing open a stuck door, another New York officer, again had his finger inappropriately on the trigger of his handgun. The shot went down a stairwell, ricocheted off a wall and killed a civilian that the officer did not even know was present. Somehow, Owen equates these negligent discharges as an indictment of Glocks for law enforcement.

Later, Owens piles on by recounting a scenario where one officer shot another after a training exercise. The office failed to clear his Glock and during the disassembly, pulled the trigger. Owens blames the “mechanically flawed” Glock and similar striker-fired semiautos with “short trigger pulls” for the shootings.

Owens goes on to state, “In both of these incidents, the police officers were using the same weapon, a Glock: a polymer-frame, striker-fired pistol with a short trigger pull and no external safeties.” Later, he states the LAPD has nine approved models of Glock and points out that the LA County Sheriff has recently started to issue its recruits the Smith & Wesson M&P “a handgun with a short trigger pull that operates in much the same way.”

Glock 19 with magazine beside it
The Glock 19’s short trigger enhances accuracy and reduces the the chance of a round straying from the intended target.

If you know anything about Glocks or firearms safety, the rest of Owens’ article is practically sickening. Owens essentially says the Safe Action System is fine if you are a robot and do everything with robot precision. Owens completely ignores the rules of gun safety. In the first two scenarios, the officer had his finger on the trigger when he should not have and it resulted in a negligent discharge that ended in the death of an innocent.

In the cleaning incident, the officer failed to clear and check the chamber. Then he should have double and triple checked it. The officer then pulled the trigger with the muzzle pointed at a fellow officer. Yes, there were plenty of mistakes made. However, each mistake was the fault of a lack of gray matter between the ears and not of an external safety or “a short trigger pull!”

Owens fails to suggest which gun with a longer pull would have prevented the incidents. He does say, however, “A number of major and minor agencies use guns with much longer double-action triggers that are just as easy to fire deliberately but that are much harder to fire accidentally. The half-inch difference of trigger travel may not sound like much, but it can be the difference between life and death.”

Pennsylvania state troopers carry the .45 ACP SIG P227 with a double-action trigger of 10 pounds. Those 4.5 more pounds of pull did not stop a Pennsylvania state trooper from killing another state trooper when he negligently discharged his pistol in October 2014.

Are 1911s and revolvers unsafe?

Owens writes, “The underlying problem with these pistols is a short trigger pull and the lack of an external safety.” I am old enough to have served in the military during a time when my standard-issued sidearm had an external safety, was not striker fired and was made of steel. The 1911A1 served us well. During our instruction in the manual of arms, we were taught to draw and disengage the safety in a single fluid set of motions—a subconscious routine that was beat into us. Accidental discharges happened. Particularly when letting down the hammer improperly. If that happened while pointing the 1911 at another person, guess what? You had better hope a corpsman or priest was nearby. The failure was not the weapon or the design. The failure was in the handling—human error.

Sig Sauer 1911 C3 left side
Yes, many firearms feature an external safety that the shooter is taught to disengage immediately. Failure to do so could cost you your life.

A short trigger pull DOES NOT cause negligent discharges. It DOES make for a more accurate first shot that has saved innumerable lives—the lives of law enforcement and civilians. How many years were revolvers sold with hair triggers? Where would Owens’ position fall on revolvers or does he also consider them too dangerous?

The lack of an external safety? What a joke! How many decades did law enforcement carry revolvers without an external safety? Besides the safety between your ears—always keep your bugger hook in your nose and off the trigger until ready to fire, point your weapon in a safe direction, maintain muzzle discipline and know what’s down range.

Conclusion

Glock sales account for over 60 percent of the handgun market as a whole, and rank as the most popular duty sidearm among law enforcement. By strictly going on the percentages, it makes sense that the most popularly used handgun also has the most negligent discharges. That does not mean the weapon is unsafe. All of Owens’ accounts portray operator error, but not a mechanical problem with Glocks or short pull triggers. Believe this, if there were mechanical issues with the trigger, lawyers would have already had a field day in the courtroom, and Glock would have been put out of business long ago. You certainly would not be hearing about it for the first time in an Op-Ed in the LA Times.

So if not Glock, what is the purpose of the article? Does anyone really believe this is about law enforcement? If Glocks, M&Ps or any other pistol that is striker fired, polymer framed, features a short-trigger pull, does not have an external safety, or was used negligently by an officer at some point and time is to be the bar for indictment of the pistol as a whole for law enforcement, what is the logical conclusion? After deciding they are “too dangerous” for law enforcement, you and I will be next! Wasn’t it just a couple of days ago in Texas that an officer armed with a Glock .45 dropped two would-be terrorists wearing body armor? Two head shots, under fire, in about 15 seconds…?

How do you feel about Owens’ comments? Are Glocks too dangerous for law enforcement? You? Me? Share your thoughts in the comment section.

[dave]

[disclaimer]

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (474)

  1. When you see ” L A Times ” You can bet on one thing… TOTAL B.S. I have concealed carried the Glock 30 for years and I have NEVER had a accidental discharge from it. I train and practice safety and because of that my Glock only goes bang when I pull the trigger.

  2. I’ll keep my Glock 23. If you keep your finger off the trigger until it is time to shoot they cannot go off. When you start pulling the trigger, only then will the safeties turn off and allow the gun to discharge. That should be simple enough. Everything is controlled by the trigger. If you’re not ready to shoot–keep your finger off the trigger.

    1. “If you keep your finger off the trigger until it is time to shoot they cannot go off”

      Yeah, because there’s no such thing as the edges of holsters, pens, and oh, non-intentional contact with the trigger in your world. Must be nice to live in such a perfect world; the rest of us don’t.

  3. I will never carry a pistol that does not have either an external safety or double action where the first pull is that of a revolver. Too easy for an accidental discharge by lightly pulling the trigger. I carry a CZ 40P and the first pull is that of a revolver where yo have to pull the hammer back completely in order to discharge the firearm. Then it’s semi.

  4. Bob Owens is known for his faulty thought process and Bearing Arms ought to know better than bear his byline.

    However, this rebuttal to Owens and Bearing Arms by correctly placing primary focus on proper safety procedure with any handgun before relying on mechanical safeties would have been better served by not featuring an LEO at the ready position with his finger on the trigger.

  5. I own glocks and have NEVER had a problem. Even had one fall and it didn’t discharge. TRAINING AND SAFETY!!!! Regardless of which gun you choose, the rules of SAFETY apply to ALL FIREARMS whether it is a pistol, rifle, or shotgun!! Use what’s between your ears!! I have worked with many people in the use of firearms, newbies and experienced shooters. Anytime the firearm was in their hand fingers were NEVER allowed on the trigger until it was time to send a round down range. Safety comes first! “Drilled into us” is the key!! Guns aren’t the problem, its stupidity and/or lack of training.

  6. The problem is now what is being carried by officers. The problem is directly connected to departments that short cutting training to save money. The line in the article about procedures being “drilled into us” using the 1911 hit the nail on the head. Back in those days (and sadly not like today) training schedules were long and repetitive.

    Today it’s all about the money and time is money training cycles are “compressed”. The statistics, backed up by the number crunchers and the historical data of the few times an officer will ever pull his weapon or even fire it outside the range is used to justify the risk management of minimum entry officer training. Of course in reality the numbers a diluted by officers that only take their weapon out of the drawer to requalify, officers that work in positions where they are not permitted to carry a weapon, and a deep number of years of history.

  7. I’ve never before now heard of Bearing Arms or Bob Owens. And, now, I don’t want to hear anymore about either. He may be a GINO (Gunner In Name Only).

  8. OK, so I guess I’m the idiot who wants to save up so I can afford a Glock. Because I’m a fool to buy into their legendary safety and reliability. I guess maybe I should just wait until there is a sidearm made that has never had an accidental discharge.

    OR, maybe this feller is off his damned rocker. Yeah, I think I’ll go with option B 🙂

  9. Is Owens a babbling idiot or does he have a secret agenda? I own a Glock and I was taught how to safely and properly handle it by my nephew who was a firearms instructor for the NYPD. The Glock is the SAFEST gun in the world! Hands down! To say that the Glock is unsafe because of some dumb users that did not follow safety procedures is ludicrous! Yes, we need to be aware of this “wolf in sheep’s clothing” Owens. He is definitely not pro-gun!

    1. Owens has a secret agenda . Cops are afraid they will have to,go back to revolvers so he starts the useless Glocktard argument. If police go to revolvers the perceived threat of police to the civilian population would diminish. But the police would argue they are “out gunned” when in reality they would shot less and more accurately.
      As for glock being the safest gun not even close, there are better and ” safer ” guns than glock. Look at the walther p99 for enhanced safety without a mechanical safety.
      You like glocks fine but they had their day and now let’s move on to real issues.

  10. Envelopes gun tests is a suspect magazine. They gave rave reviews to the r51 Remington pistol and yet it had recalls, also they did a polymer comparison and could not figure out that the ppl for instance give you various grip sizes and sight heights to make it shoot POI as well as a magazine that was17 rounds not fifteen. I wrote them about it and the crickets are still chirping.
    So all rags have a agenda hidden or obvious.

    1. I remember back in the 70’s and 80’s, Guns and Ammo ran GLOWING tests on most of the Llama series of pistols. These firearms were total TRASH!!!! They always had glowing remarks about the Smith Model 39 and 59..once again these pistols had truly bad reputations as jam-o-matics. then came that clunk called the Colt Double Eagle. Glowing remarks, total trash! Phil Engledrum, the publisher of Handgun Tests pointed all of this stuff out in 1979 when he started his publications. Gun magazines get their test guns straight from the manufacturer and of course, those guns are going to be perfect. The one thing that I will say has changed is that major gun makers have stepped up their game over the years and most are making constant, top-notch firearms. Bad designs still get through ever now and then like the Remington R51.

    2. Yep, that’s why Consumer Reports buys EVERYTHING they review from retail channels just to obviate this “stacking the deck” problem.

  11. I stopped buying Gun Magazines when the when a friend and I got Stoeger .22 Lugers that they gave Rave Reviews on Both failed to operate properly. I ran into someone who had five of the Stoeger Lugers that did not work. The reviewers all get their test products from the manufacturer after they have been gone over with at fine toothed comb. .Gun Tests is the only reviewer that purchases their firearms for testing. I wrote a Guitar magazine about the same issues and they did not like my comment.

  12. remember those two names….Bob Owens….Dick Metcalf…TWO WOLFS IN SHEEPS CLOTHING…both are elitist anti-gun for common people…people who don’t meet there idea of who should own a gun….gun rights for the selected …not you and me ,,,I have not purchased a guns and ammo rag mag since that s.o.b.wrote his article (Metcalf) those s.o.b.s at guns and ammo printed it…beware of these men they are a clear and present danger.

  13. remember those two names….Bob Owens….Dick Metcalf…TWO WOLFS IN SHEEPS CLOTHING…both are elitist anti-gun for common people…people who don’t meet there idea of who should own a gun….gun rights for the selected …not you and me ,,,I have not purchased a guns and ammo rag mag since that s.o.b.wrote his article and those s.o.b.s at guns and ammo printed it…beware of these men they are a clear and present danger.

  14. Now while I certainly do not agree with the reasons, I’m not a fan of Glock as a duty gun either. Its only safety is the trigger safety, which isn’t much of a safety. If the gun is out of its holster it is hot and that’s all there is to it. There are a lot of inadvertent discharges of Glock pistols by law enforcement every year due to re-holstering incidents. The officer puts the gun in its holster and something gets in the trigger guard, he presses down and “pow.” Many agencies do not require it to be reported unless the round strikes a person or property. It was such a common issue that the local sheriff department here started requiring it to be reported even if the round only goes into the dirt. Now they are looking at other options.

    Before you bash me for “speculating”…I run a gun shop and I deal with the local Sheriff department and police agencies pretty much on a daily basis. So I am not speculating.

    1. Again, just as the writer points out….all guns are hot when they are in your hand! A revolver is exactly the same condition when it’s in your hand. A 1911 is HOT once the grip safety is squeezed and the thumb safety is dropped- and it has a much shorter, lighter trigger. No manual safety should ever be trusted!

    2. I work for a local PD, we’ve used Glocks for at least 15 years with no AD’s (smaller agency). Surrounding agencies that use guns with external safeties have had AD’s. It comes down to operator error if it happens. When a gun is in your hand it’s hot anyway, or it damn sure should be. You work for a gun shop and hear “war” stories, if you want to take those as fact, that’s up to you.

  15. Why on Earth would he write such an article? Those comments are usually reserved for writers who know nothing of guns or their operation. Maybe Bob should read his own story on Dick Metcalf from June of last year.

  16. It’s “they are” or “they’re” ….RMES…How is anyone supposed to take anything you say seriously in light of the fact that you are obviously uneducated …”You’re” not helping…

  17. Glocks are really good pistols.they do what they were designed for. Priced at an obtainable price, easy to carry for different reasons, easy worked on for maintaince needs.Cleaning and brake downs, part interchanging ect.
    Sad cases but each one seems to be covered by basic handgun safety that comes under basic training. Any good NRA coarse should help.
    As for the Law enforcement issues, things do happen and at the worst possible time.
    Like other makes, but Love your Glock’s abilities

  18. After having a string from a tiebreaker get caught in a G22 trigger reholstering. I switched back to my 4006. Glock being classified as a double action only was a great marketing gimmick. When personal weapons were authorized I went & qualified with my Sig 229 DAK quickly. Fits my large hand, true DAO & accurate plus 14+1 mec-gears are available. Costs double a Glock but will last forever.
    Both Glock & S&W have been known to give p.d.’s free guns just for business look at the agencies that used the GAP and ones still carrying it.

  19. This is all stupid….. I have never in my 60 years seen a gun jump up and shoot anybody. So if the gun can’t do it by itself then how is it unsafe. Humans without knowledge of what a gun does are unsafe. I’ve never shot anybody, yet. If I do it won’t be no accident I’ll tell you that. Knowledge is the key to all of it, and punishing everybody because of a few is what started this country, and may have to be done again. It’s not my fault that someone is too stupid to know how to safely handle a gun, cops or otherwise.

  20. Apparently Owen is and educated man as are probably all the people that made comments. Just goes to show you education can’t fix stupid. It’s the trigger finger stupid not the gun. I have a 1911 and Glocks. I like the 1911 but I love my 30 sf and 21. Their not cheap they just work and work every time.

  21. Good comments. I have a Glock 17, a Ruger P89, and a Beretta 92. I feel OK with all of them but wouldn’t want a minimally trained cop waving the Glock around.

  22. Whatever your preference in side arm is the key is training and most all the comment’s out there say something about that you need to train to were correct handling is a habit and than you are not likely to have un issue

  23. One response on this subject was that police are not well trained with their firearms. The writer suggested that DA/SA pistols would be better for them. The only problem I see with that suggestion is this – if they are poorly trained, when they find themselves in a death defying situation, they have not made their firearm second nature, whether it be keeping their finger off the trigger (with a Glock), or taking the safety off, they may attempt to pull the trigger and wonder why nothing happens. Also, they may lose their life because the first shot (DA) goes into the ground rather than into the perp. On a Glock, you learn one trigger pull. On a DA/SA pistol there are 2 with the DA being the harder of the two to learn. 50 – 100 rounds practice each year will not do it!

  24. I have been carrying Glock 45 acps for concealed carry for over 2 years with no mechanical problems. They are flawless if handled properly, with common sense, and true gun safety as with any pistol. I parked my 1911 and carry only Glocks, and to me the simplicity of the Glock makes better sense to me for personnel protection.

    1. That’s the whole point of the article, it is to easy to unintentionally pull the trigger. So what makes GLOCK’s the best combat gun in the world, accuracy, price, looks, reliability or they are just cool. As others have written, Glock is a marketing machine and sell their firearms at very low prices. That does not make them best choice. I have seen a LE speak about using S&W M&P because they have the changeable back strap that way LEO with different sized hands can fit the firearm properly to their hand size. What a great idea have a gun fit properly to your hand not one size fits all.

    2. All Gen 4 Glocks have interchangeable back straps, 4 are provided with the pistol and there are many different companies manufacturing different sizes and shaped also. Glock has been a reliable sidearm in more cases and more incidents than could possibly be listed here, mass media loves to sensationalize anything and everything anti gun. If a handful of officers over the course of several years crash their dodge chargers, would a Camaro with a heavier throttle return spring fix the problem? I think not.

    3. Paul, Glock Gen 4 have changeable back straps, so there is no reason to settle for a M&P. If there is no finger pulling the trigger a Glock will not fire; it is as simple as that. Glock sells a great product at a good price, not because they are a “marketing machine”: but because they are reliable. Training is the issue not; the firearm. Train the LEO to keep their finger off the trigger and a Glock is as safe as a gun with a traditional safety. If a person cannot be safe with a Glock they should not be an LEO. They will need to look for a new line of work, perhaps raking leaves or something.

    4. Brian I like the comment about “If a person cannot be safe with a Glock they should not be an LEO” I AGREE, the problem is as I stated they don’t always hire based on ability rather on filling a quota for a certain category of “people”. So you have to provide a firearm to the “lowest denominator”. I am not against GLock but you need to see if there is a problem with LEO using them improperly and adjust. If they want to shoot a GLock show that you are a qualified LEO to handle it properly otherwise standard issue is DA/SA. Yes keep finger of trigger but I think if us pro-gun people show that we are responsible then we have another reason to tell the anti-gunners find something else to do (that was putting it nicely).

    5. Brian… I agree with almost everything you post except “settle for a M&P”. Personally if I couldn’t get an M&P I might settle for a Glock.

  25. I do not and will not own a Glock. They don’t feel right in my hand. As for the lack of safeties other than the trigger I own a striker fired Kahr without an external safety. It does however use an exceptionally long trigger pull, albeit a smooth one. Why are so many Glocks in PDs around the country and in the hands of so many civilians? They are inexpensive. Are there better striker fired guns? Sure, but they cost more than Glocks.

    Negligent discharges are a result of having the finger on the trigger when it shouldn’t be and no, police in general receive very little training with their sidearms. I feel a police officer would be better off with a DA/SA pistol having an external safety rather than a striker fired pistol. That’s just my honest opinion. Will they? Not likely since Glock practically gives their pistols away at prices most other companies can’t beat.

  26. What’s a ‘negligent’ discharge? The term is ‘accidental discharge’ , or an ‘AD’ if you’re on the range. Jeese, I don’t even know the shooting community any more.

    1. A Negligent discharge my friend, is one that could have been avoided but was not due to lack of adhering to the most basic rules of firearms safety:
      1. Keep firearm unloaded until ready to use (assume gun is ALWAYS loaded)
      2. Keep gun pointed in a safe direction (do not muzzle anything you are not willing to kill or destroy)
      3. Keep your finger off the trigger until sights are on target and you are ready to shoot
      4. Know your target and what is beyond or in line with it.

      When you disobey ALL FOUR of these (as some people who were sited by the author did) you are acting in a negligent fashion and have no business being around firearms until such a time that you are properly trained AND practice these actions as HABITS.

      Accidental discharges are those that could not have been foreseen, or avoided while practicing good, safe gun handling. Such as a mechanical malfunction of a firearm that could cause a slam fire or other such unintended firing of the gun. You could rightly say, “wow – that was an accidental discharge”. And as long as you were practicing those gun safety rules, no harm will likely occur. But that same event could easily turn negligent (or even criminal) if you were pointing the muzzle in an unsafe direction or were operating the firearm unaware of how that particular firearm functions.

    2. Bruce,
      The duty of all firearm owners/users is to use safe handling practices and to educate others by example (and if necessary by polite discourse). Agreeing with Somelamename, I am providing the legal definition of Negligence.

      From Cornell Law School

      Definition

      A failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances. The behavior usually consists of actions, but can also consist of omissions when there is some duty to act (e.g., a duty to help victims of one’s previous conduct).
      Overview

      Primary factors to consider in ascertaining whether the person’s conduct lacks reasonable care are the foreseeable likelihood that the person’s conduct will result in harm, the foreseeable severity of any harm that may ensue, and the burden of precautions to eliminate or reduce the risk of harm. See Restatement (Third) of Torts: Liability for Physical Harm § 3 (P.F.D. No. 1, 2005). Negligent conduct may consist of either an act, or an omission to act when there is a duty to do so. See Restatement (Second) of Torts § 282 (1965).

      Five elements are required to establish a prima facie case of negligence: the existence of a legal duty to exercise reasonable care; a failure to exercise reasonable care; cause in fact of physical harm by the negligent conduct; physical harm in the form of actual damages; and proximate cause, a showing that the harm is within the scope of liability.

      From Wiki

      Negligence (Lat. negligentia, from neglegere, to neglect, literally “not to pick up something”) is a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances.[1] The area of tort law known as negligence involves harm caused by carelessness, not intentional harm.

      According to Jay M. Feinman of the Rutgers University School of Law;

      The core idea of negligence is that people should exercise reasonable care when they act by taking account of the potential harm that they might foreseeably cause to other people.”[2]

      those who go personally or bring property where they know that they or it may come into collision with the persons or property of others have by law a duty cast upon them to use reasonable care and skill to avoid such a collision.”
      —Fletcher v Rylands ([1866] LR 1 Ex 265)

  27. Hi,
    I’m Bob, I’m 67 and I’ve never killed anyone. Neither do I intend to ever kill anyone. If; however, the time comes when my sight pattern should include a human I will briefly consider two things:
    1) is my gun loaded
    2) am I sure of correct sight pattern.
    Rest assured I will Not consider WHO is the sight pattern, only if it is correct. When I become serious to the degree that a living pattern in needed I will not take additional time to decide morality or necessity or anything else, only “IS THE SIGHT PATTERN CORRECT?
    That having been said, Like granddad told me, If you need a tool (gun) use the correct tool and use it like you trained on it.

  28. I guess what everyone needs to know is weather or not your in law in enforcement or a civilian that wants to carry a weapon training training and more training than when your comfortable keep training one class don’t make you a pro the only accidental discharge I have ever had was do to a defective side mounted safety that went off after shooting the gun and it fired when safety was put back on but do to training that round still hit the target not the ground or my training partern

  29. IF THEY WERE RELIABLE!! Glocks r not my prefered pistol but i do own one G33 in 357 cal.of three that purchased these same pistols, all hav had numerous problems. 1st one, guide and spring broke on the 3rd shot, out of the box. 2nd, spring has flipped and wudnt feed round and my glock keeps givin me bad feeds. Ammo type is speer gold dot. Other hav also had problems.sorry herd lots of gud things bout glock from older model. I miss my Sig P239. They r inexpensive but unreliable.sorry

  30. I personally don’t care for Glock pistols. That being said however doe’s not necessarily make it a bad firearm. ALL pistols have features and technologies that are unique to that particular make/model of firearm. It is the USER’S Responsibility to know and understand this long before even considering using it.

    Unfortunately accidents happen. It is tragic, but sadly true. The best made pistol in the world ( a huge debate by itself ) won’t make up for accidents and bad judgment calls. I completely agree with earlier statements of “training” and “know your target” Police have a unique role in our society. They face people trying to shoot them or others fairly often. It would be very difficult for non police to understand the stresses they have to deal with. I am retired military. I have been shooting all of my life. But I am not a police officer. I would not know how to deal with the situations that they do. Given that they are under the direction of civilian law. Not military rules of engagement.
    Glock being a wrong handgun for the police? Not sure I agree with that. No matter which sidearm they or anyone is using.Training and proper SAFE handling practices cannot be over emphasized.

  31. I just started getting into firearms last year and one of the gun stores I visited recommended DA Beretta, SIg and even 1911. The guy does work for Navy Seals and has been involved with military work. He did not recommend a Glock S&W or any striker fire SA because of safety reasons. He said a local police officer pulled his gun out prior to arriving on a call and accidentiy fired the weapon in the car while it was in his lap. The gun store owner was not against them, just that most people don’t handle them properly including LE people. Have you seen some of the LE that get hired these days. Some are hired because they fall into some category that the government wants to hire to be fair! Anyone trained with a DA like a Beretta or CZ can still defend themselves just fine. Watch videos from Ernest Langdon a top shooter who has won IDPA championships. If they want to carry a Glock or some other SA. prove that you can handle it and qualify every 3 months other wise you get a DA.

  32. my department changed over to Glocks eight years ago. Absolutely a fine firearm for police work. Again…training, training, training !!! Not saying its better than Sig, or Smith. To my knowledge, none of these firearms will discharge unless the trigger is pulled which brings us back to proper instruction and training.

  33. Seems that the first rule in gun safety Has been forgotten, Always point the weapon in a safe direction , meaniing , point the gun at the ground till you are ready to use it , not your cop buddy you are training. Bottom line is if your finger is on the trigger or you forgot to clear the chamber , you cannot kill somebody by accident if you ain’t pointing the gun at them in the first place.If you got your finger on the trigger and you are pointing the weapon at them you are going to kill them and if you can’t figure that out you are stupid or ignorant.

  34. I, too, feel quite strongly that Glocks are not a good choice for Law Enforcement. “The failure was in the handling—human error.” Human error… that’s a nice way to say dumbass gun handling, and that is true enough! The problem with Glocks is not that they are mechanically dangerous; in the wrong hands, ANY gun is dangerous! But, many cops lost control of their handguns back in the “Old Days”, until departments started providing the correct equipment, like ‘Retention’ holsters, for their officers. Bad guys could literally take an officer’s gun, and kill him, or her, with it, and Glocks, with the only effective safety located on the trigger, where a neophyte naturally places their finger, are just ‘Point and shoot’! I always thought that a handgun with a magazine disconnect, like the S&W 39 and 59 series, was a much better choice for a cop. Level I, II, and II holsters have increased officer survival rates tremendously! Before they were available, a lot of cops lost their guns, and, ultimately, their lives. The writer does make valid points when he talks about unsafe handling, but, that’s not the fault of the gun, but a training issue. Gun Safety Rule #1 is “Keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to fire! Glocks are a pretty good choice for military, or even civilian use, but, not, in my humble opinion, for cops!

  35. Rick, I’ve been nice but now is over. I’m retired law enforcement and a LE instructor. It is crystal clear that know nothing about proper handgun handling.

    1. I don’t know if I”m the Rick you’re responding to (there are two in this discussion), but if so, why should I possibly care what you think?

  36. I guess everyone has his favorite firearm. Whatever a person is comfortable with, he also needs to train with it. That way, when one’s life is on the line, he will not have to think about a safety just as he will train himself not to put his finger on the trigger until he has his sight picture. As far as having one on the table next to the bed, it should be in a holster if it is a Glock, or Glock like pistol. You may need a flashlight regardless of what pistol you own. Know your target before you shoot, it may be your mother-in-law!!! Anyone who owns a firearm needs to spend more time with it that just 50 to 100 rounds each year! A good secondary class beyond the State permit class is needed.

  37. The problem I had with the OP-ED was the writer’s gross stupidity when he said it was a weapon issue; it was all about a failure in training issue.
    Every incident cited was a failure of TRAINING, end of story! Perhaps Bob Owens needs to be carefully checked for his personal prejudices against the Glock systems? Just Follow The Money?!?

  38. I agree with the writer Glocks are too dangerous for them to carry. Now if all the police departments would dump their guns on the open market I could afford a glock! To successfully use a Glock you must actually practice and not just shoot holes in a target. So maybe police should go back to wheel guns and just do paperwork and eat donuts…if they don’t want to do their job correctly!

  39. I Myself carry a sringfield xd-40 much like the clock in operations all of these thing that are mentioned in owens article are not safety issue’s but more so training issue’s anybody trained knows that when a weapon is pulled finger stays off the bang switch and is indexed along side the frame this is called indexing I never had a accident discharge and do a lot of tactical training did the officer that shot the other one when disassembling his weapon confirm clear with someone or did he just start taking it apart guns don’t shoot people people do lets get that write first

  40. For the first six to seven years of my career, the agency from which I retired had issued a S&W six shot revolver (and two speed loaders). After realizing that the revolver was quickly becoming antiquated even back then, the agency tested out several semi-autos and settled on the 15 + 1 round, 40 cal, Glock 22. Cost was probably the biggest factor as other more expensive semi-autos were also available at that time that were of the “squeeze the trigger and shoot” variety, without a manually released safety. The Glock was also a popularly carried semi-auto that some in the agency had bought on their own and carried instead of the issued revolver. Transitioning to the Glock from revolvers was also a pretty seamless effort for most. All that said, in my opinion, Glock trigger pulls are very safe! As was also pointed out in Dave Dolbee’s rebuttal to the article questioning the safety of a Glock’s 5.5 lbs trigger pull. They are so safe, dependable and reasonably priced in fact, that I own a few and even still qualify and conceal carry a larger caliber Glock since I’ve retired.

    Don’t get me wrong, some of most accurate shooting is with one of my 1911’s. Here’s the “but.” Safety wise, I trust a Glock with a live round chambered and magazine inserted any day over a 1911 stored with a round chambered, cocked and locked in my safe! Also I personally know of one accidental discharge of a 1911 that was fatal when an officer tripped during a foot pursuit. Sig Sauer makes several semi auto options with a “de-cocker” for their double action/single action models. Unfortunately, I’ve heard of chambered rounds accidently discharging during the “de-cocking” process. Honestly with the current state of “public opinion” apparently being the standard by which everything not “Politically Correct” is judged, nothing written or said in the liberal media should surprise anyone.

  41. Well I think he has successfully discredited himself with the intelligent side of the shooting world! The key word is negligence. Glock dropsthese things from a helicopter to test them of true AD’s. Guess what, they don’t go bang without pulling the trigger. One can try the ruse of saying a 1911 has an external safety but think about that too. Anyone trained in drawing and shooting a pistol…..any pistol, especially cops, would also be trained to defeat the safety at the time they clear leather….or kydex. So the idea of a safety is a moot point. As for going with a long double action only for duty, I’ll stick with my G21 all day long. I believe it’s detrimental to the safety of officers to go the route of increasing trigger pull and weight. Not to mention civilians. What’s our hit percentage as cops? 25%? Pitiful. If every acency in the country went to a dao, I’m convinced that number would drop even lower. Our last shooting had 17 or 19 of 22 rounds fired hit their mark. We shoot Glocks. I wasn’t a big Glock fan before I became a cop but training and experience has taught me otherwise. And by the way I have a Sig P229 in 357 that I carry frequently off duty…which I love. So it’s not about a brand either. You said it perfectly, it’s an issue of grey matter not polymer and steel. Train train train. And when u think you’re good….train some more. I wonder, is there a blood relation to Ms. Pelosi?

  42. I don’t personally like Glocks, but not because they are “flawed” in some way as Bob Owens has said. (I like 1911’s and revolvers. What can I say? It’s a matter of personal choice.)

    Glocks are fine weapons that are very reliable, will cycle almost any ammo you care to run through them, and they’re accurate. They are also available in all the popular ,military and police calibers. These are the things you want in a service weapon. I have fired several in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

    The problem(s) that Owens decribes are NOT problems with the weapon at all. They ARE problems with the human holding/using the weapon!!! It is a lack of training and a lack of self discipline and attention to detail that is the problem!

    The author of this article is entirely correct in what he said about the “cleaning” incident. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about gun safety knows that you ALWAYS make certain the weapon is unloaded before starting! The accidental discharge incidents were also violations of basic firearms safety!

    YOU KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF OF THE BANG SWITCH UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE!!!

    Glocks don’t fire unless they are loaded and the trigger is pulled. They don’t fire themselves! Therefore it is a human problem rather than a weapon problem. Case closed!

  43. I am amazed at how many responsed this article inspired. Opinions from both sides; some I agree with and some I don’t and that is the beauty of America. You can voice your opinion with fear of retribution, other than some name calling here and there, but most comments were directed at the source of the article.

    I’m an avid shooter, hunter and outdoorsman and supporter of the 2nd Ammendment as so many of the respondents are, in fact probably all of you. Keep watching for craziness, shadyl government tactics, and other such nonsesnse and we can respond an let everyone know that we all stand together in support of our country, our troops, freedom and the 2nd Amendment. Thank you fellow gun owners.

    1. My previous comment has an error. It should read “without fear of retribution” Thanks you.

    2. My previous comment has an error. It should read “without fear of retribution” Thank you.

  44. that sure cleared things up for me! I always thought it was the operator. now I know its the guns fault. imagine, been shooting for 58 years and just now finding out. golly geeeeeeee!!!!! dude has done the anti-gun nuts more damage than anyone in the last 50 years. his friends need to get him to a doc for an old-timers check-up!!! re-read it carefully. it was the gun holders fault. PS how is the safety on your bow and arrow?

  45. @RD, if you are incapable of exercising the self-control necessary to communicate in more than sentence fragments, you do the anti-second amendment types a great service.

    I think you said that you keep a loaded firearm on your nightstand. Frankly, I find that a bad idea, the weapon collects too much dust.
    I believe you said you carry with a round in the chamber. That’s fine, I used to do so as well, I stopped because I got tired of cleaning the thing.
    You complain about the time necessary to chamber a round, I’ll give you that point if you think that the Mossad are incompetent. The Mossad trains and carries an empty chamber.
    I feel bad for you that nobody comes around to visit you and your wife, your life is most unfortunately insular.
    You indeed need to say more, an example would be to use more than sentence fragments. Only a socially isolated dumb ass is incapable of writing or speaking complete sentences.

    1. “You complain about the time necessary to chamber a round, I’ll give you that point if you think that the Mossad are incompetent. The Mossad trains and carries an empty chamber.”

      Well, it’s not the Mossad, but the Israeli Defense Forces (Army), and it’s about 1911s, not Glocks, Other than that you nailed it…
      Anyone who finds it objectionable to flick off a safety would really have a problem with “the Israeli draw.”

  46. Personally I feel that cops have no business carrying guns simply because of how negligent I have observed them being. Yes, I know, cop hate is vogue today, but when you see officers twirling their loaded guns like they are out of some old western movie, there is a major problem.

    There is no such thing as an accidental discharge when it comes to handling guns. You are accountable for every bullet in your magazine. If one of those bullets ricochet and hit an innocent person you are responsible for it, and a person of authority is doubly so. But where you and I would fry, and at the very least have our firearms taken away from us for an “negligent” or “accidental” discharge, Police can get away with Murder, literally.

    I can’t help but feel that any Law Enforcement Professional that has one of these “accidents” with their personal, or duty weapons, should be held under some major scrutiny, and stripped of his weapons if not fired. Remember, there are no accidents when it comes to firearms.

  47. Really?!
    The good about the Glock is its simplicity and reliability. Complex systems are more likely to fail. As an instructor, I will tell you there is only one safety. YOU! The safety exists between your ears. If you are not thinking safety you are not being safe. Any one that is carrying a firearm with their finger on the trigger is asking for trouble. It is called a Negligent discharge. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. The firearm did not go off by itself. If you follow there basic rules: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, Keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction, and Be sure of your target and what is beyond, there would be many fewer “accidental” deaths. Negligence is the failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another. If your finger is on the trigger and your gun goes off when you did not want it to, it is Negligence. If you are walking with your finger on the trigger and you stumble, which causes you to squeeze the trigger and you shoot through a wall, it is Negligence. If a properly maintained firearm is sitting on a table or being properly handled, it is not likely to accidentally discharge. Therefore the likelihood of an “accidental discharge” is almost zero. I submit that the term “accidental discharge” be removed and the term “Negligent Discharge” be used in its place.

  48. Blaming the Glock is sort of like blaming Ford because a driver took his foot of the brake while a group of 1st graders were in the crosswalk.

  49. As retired LE, I can remember several certified Officers who had no business carrying even a rubber knife. They always scared me.

  50. It looks like it was written with a two sided argument and only one side was kept. That being said I’m not a fan of glock as with anything some people love them others hate them. But it seems to me officers should have some choice in the weapons they are caring. I know a lot of officers would like to carry H&K or kimber handguns but the price keeps a lot of departments away. As a matter of fact the postal inspectors (yes some are given a service weapon) bypassed the competitive bid process to acquire some H&K 40 cal 1911’s. This was found out and they were not allowed to keep them the and park police picked them up. I think the postal inspectors ended up with smith and wessons. The park police I know couldn’t be happier with the H&Ks but it’s doubtful that they would have been able to get them with out the postal inspectors stepping out of bounds and they are funded but the department of the interior not a city hall where money doesn’t grow on trees.

  51. My first agency issued me an S&W 4906 with an external safety that was always of. We then moved to Sig P229 in .40 S&W, no safety, just a decocking lever, and we practiced short-stroking the trigger after the first round. No one has been shot that wasn’t supposed to be. My current agency issues Glock 17s and since 1996, I have carried a Glock 23 off-duty. I have yet to have a negligent discharge because I know where my “safety”, i.e., finger, is supposed to be. If you train well and always observe the basic rules of safety, you don’t have problems.

  52. Duh, any gun is dangerous. Then then so is a razor, or a kitchen knife, so is small toy, so is a bicycle, not to mention aspirin, womens hi-heals, cars, trucks, gas ovens, electric ovens. Virtually everything we use, eat or wear is or can be dangerous. So, the inherent danger of an object, be it a gun or a kitchen knife or a toaster oven is not the issue. The issue is and always will be the loose nut behind the object operating the object in an unsafe manner. It is unfortunate however, that those same loose nuts seem to be the ones who divorce themselves of any responsibility for the use of anything; they blame their incompetence on mechanical items rather than accepting the fact they have no clue themselves on how to use an item safely..

    1. why not on the nightstand with a chambered round? I carry with a round chambered! What? you gonna tell someone, “wait while I get one chambered?” Nothing unsafe about that. No one here except me and my wife so if someone else is……..need I say more dumb ass?

  53. Regardless of what Owens claims as his “expertise”, he has no idea what he’s talking about. I was a Los Angeles police officer for 38 years and for a portion of those years, I was a firearms instructor. Negligent discharges occur because of poor training, NOT the weapon. Unlike TV and movies, most officers are not very good shots. The striker fired Glock improved accuracy dramatically. The same can be said about the single action 1911. Beware of the Owens’ of the world that present themselves as experts…they’re not!

  54. Good discussion. I don’t know that harsh feelings are warranted. But, on the “non-sequitur” thing? Don’t do that. Anytime I see a logical fallacy listed, I know the author is clamoring for credibility that has nothing to do with the topic. Make your point. People will agree or disagree. Don’t start trying to use big educated sounding debate terms that should, in themselves, be logical fallacies. You’re grasping for power. Relax and make your point.

    carry on

    1. Sir,
      Excellent point that has value far beyond this discussion.

      I will apply your comments in my own writing.

      Best!

  55. If police had to use guns with external safeties in the heat of a gunfight they forget to take it off sometimes, this has been wrote about in Massad Ayoob’s articles. This is still happening at some agencies that have these type pistols.This is a training issue not the design’s fault,just like having your finger on the trigger is a training issue.Government waste money all the time, how about doing something good with our tax dollars and really train these men and women to use their weapons correctly.

  56. Ever have a noise wake you in the middle of the night, and in the dark grab your gun off of the bedside table? Good luck with not grabbing it by the trigger.

    1. Glocks are garbage. The only good thing is the rust resistance, but the plastic frame makes it unbalanced. The police only use them because they are cheap to buy, and they use 9mm because they aren’t really supposed to kill unless they need to. A .40 or .45 can put the body into shock with just one shot. (I am a corporal of U.S. Marines) I have always been partial to the 1911, and so do a lot of other special ops guys. We keep them without a bullet in the chamber and rack it after removing it from the holster. This gives time to evaluate a target. The police training shouldn’t be any different. If we can do it in combat zones, police can do it too.

  57. Chris and others,
    You and so many others believe that the Glock is pre-cocked. It is not. The 1911, however, is pre-cocked and locked. I have a few 1911’s and carred one on duty for years; great guns. The Glock ( I’m a Glock armorer) has a striker or firing pin that is dorment until the trigger is engaged and pulls the striker back to a position where it is relaesed and allowed to strike the primer. Glocks cannot fire unless the trigger is engaged; it’s impossible, can’t physically happen. The 1911 has a hammer that is under spring tension with a safety that gives one a false feeling of security. I’ve see 1911’s have AD’s more than Glocks. As an example, the Glock is like a slingshot with a rock in the leather pouch and the rubber bands hanging lose until pulled and released by the shooter. The 1911 is like the slingshot with the rubber bands being held in a ready positon all the time until fired.
    As a member of a police shooting investigation team I looked at many shootings, some were police AD. Every AD was the fault of the shooter NOT the gun were it a Glock or a 1911. The dept. I worked for allowed the carry of Glocks and 1911 model pistols. I have the experience to discuss this situation from a professsional point of view and I’m not prejudice toward either one of these guns.

  58. I am a 1911 guy and I also consider the glock based design a very unsafe weapon and will not own any firearm that does not have and external locking safety. S$%# happens and that feature could prevent and accidental discharge. I dated a cop once, was out with her and her girlfriend cop. They were both issued glocks, no choice and had to carry them all the time. Her girlfriend set her purse down heavily by the bar and guess what? a pen was in the trigger guard and BANG in a Bar, hell of a scene. Anyone who does not have the practice and wherewithall to flick off a safety shouldn’t have a gun in their hand in my opinion. Nothing replaces Situational Awareness.

    1. “…her girlfriend set her purse down heavily by the bar and guess what? a pen was in the trigger guard and BANG in a Bar, hell of a scene. ”

      A real world example of why the trigger-“safety” isn’t one, and how (at a minimum) the addition of a grip safety would have made this a non-event..

      S^%$ happens in the real world. The range isn’t the real world.

  59. I agree with Mr. Owens. I also am ex-military and used old slabsides(1911A1). I ALso have a Glock 23. It is not my carry gun. Yes,proper gun safety would have prevented those accidental discharges,but we are human. Humans make mistakes.

  60. Mr Owens has a point that should be looked at by any agency choising to use glocks or stricker fire weapons, I have used Glocks, S&W 4506, Browning Hi-Power, Colt 1911, & reveolvers while on the job. Nothing scared me more than an other officer with a weapon, with out an external safety. The 1911 cocked & locked I feared to most.

  61. I think Mr. Owens must have had an incident himself and is unwilling to blame himself for his own error and is therefore blaming his Glock.

  62. If Bob Owens had more integrity and intellectual honesty, his article would be called, “Poorly trained police officers negligently discharge duty weapons and blame their equipment” He’d then go on to explain how police officers need to master basic firearm safety before being allowed to handle guns.

  63. He clearly contradicts his claims seeing how every incident involved someone handling the weapon, with their finger on the trigger. I have served in law enforcement for 9 years, and the in army for 8 prior to that, and i have never heard of nor seen a firearm discharge on its own- its always been user error and negligence. My agency has used Glocks for 25 years and we would never consider using an unsafely designed weapon system. This guy is the opposite of genius.

  64. I usually do not leave a comment, leaving that to more articulate persons. However, when do we as a country of supposedly educated individuals stop blaming the equipment and start accepting blame for our own actions. True, mechanical system can and do fail on occasion. Again with the, however, and for that I apologize. Everyone of these events where caused by careless acts of stupidity. Failure to follow the most basic common sense rules of safety, Period !
    SJB, Pgh, PA. .

  65. Look, I own several Glocks. The only safety that is 100% is the one between your ears. Following the 4 safety rules of firearms is priority 1 and should NEVER EVER be shortcut. To do so is going to lead to an ND incident. I would not be afraid to set my glock on a desk WITH the business end pointed directly at me WITH a round in the chamber, as long as it is just lying there. You lay a finger on it and I’m moving. Its the Human that is responsible for the safe handling of ANY firearm. You are right this article is about NO GUNS are safe to be used by anyone.

  66. I think you may have missed his point. Maybe, because I sure can’t read his mind. I’m thinking he means that since police are charged with public safety they need a more foolproof gun because, well, there are always fools including police. What that would be I’m not sure, but my experience with revolvers is that their double pull is enough that it is very hard to accidentally fire one, and back when police were still issuing them they were taught to use only double pull, to not cock the hammer for single pull because while that made for a much more accurate shot it also made it easier to discharge when you did not mean to. Accuracy from a light trigger pull obviously can lead to accidental discharges and death. Police have an obligation to place the public safety before their own, or they should not have become police.

  67. Proper Gun Safety would have stopped all of these incidents. I have a number of Glocks and love them all. They are fast to get on a target and work as well as a 1911 in stock forms. High capacity magazines sold me for life… LE can never have too many rounds at their disposal. Period End of Story.

  68. The Glock 19’s short trigger enhances accuracy and reduces the the chance of a round straying from the intended target. maybe but this statement is full of BS. I agree the Glock is a dangerous gun, intended for a wartime roll, not in the urban scene.

  69. The only use i’ve ever had for a safety is on long guns – or when i want to decock my pt92. Other than that, there’s no need for a safety. If someone is an idiot, they will remain an idiot… a switch cannot change that. btw, i personally don’t like glocks because of their ability to jam on command. Give me an aluminum framed glock and i would love it.

  70. If the Glock accounts for up to 60 percent of the weapons being used by law enforcement, it’s pretty obvious that the majority of incidents will have an officer carring a Glock. That’s just basic math. If the same numbers were used except the officers carried a Berretta, then chances are there would be more incidents with that firearm. There’s nothing flawed with the Glock pistol, it’s operator error, plain and simple.

  71. Both Mr. Owens and Mr. Dolbee have valid points. However, I can tell you that the majority of police officers, especially those of larger departments, are semi-trained at best. (I should know. I was the Sgt. in charge of firearms training for a 900 officer P.D. for 14 years.) Many agencies place firearms training, as opposed to mere qualification, as a low priority. Firearms training can be expensive and time consuming, neither of which is popular with administrators.
    As a side note, I wonder if either Mr. Owens or Mr. Dolbee has searched a building looking for an armed perp? I wonder if either has ever felt fear while doing such a search? I’ll bet if they had, their fingers were on the trigger. Extensive training is the only cure.

    1. KSP,
      I agree that training is the problem and not the Glocks or striker fired pistols as Mr. Owens’ article indicated.

      I do not know Mr. Owens’ background so I will not speak to it. However, yes, I’ve searched a building or two looking for an armed subject. I did a stint with the military police, later graduated from the Sheriff academy and finally worked in executive protection. However, I do not believe that is relevant or in any way influenced my opinion in pointing out the errors in Owen’s argument where he blamed the firearm. ~Dave Dolbee

  72. as a retired gunsmith i have no love for the plastic fantastic guns under attack in this article. i find the trigger pulls and feel of said triggers to be horrible at best. to blame these shootings on the gun and not the poorly tramed cops is a joke. the fact that these guns have no external mechanical safeties is what makes these weapons the perfect sidearm for law enforcement.nothing to fiddle with or think about,just draw the weapon pull the trigger ,reholster the gun. just like a revolver.. they are idiot proof! the problem is not the glock it is the poorly trained officer that is pulling the trigger .
    .

  73. I have owned through the years many different Glock models as well as S&W M&P pistols, Springfield Armory, Walther, Kel Tec, Tuarus, H&K, Sig, Kahr. For a while I was paranoid about the striker fire system without safety, but with more training, and familiarity with the platform, it is my platform of choice. I do not like the transition between D/A and S/A of hammer fired pistols because with small hands I must adjust my grip which I do not need to do with striker fired pistols. I also prefer a single stack mag for ease of carry and grip. My constant attitude when around any gun is that it is loaded and I treat them as such. I am not saying that I have never made a mistake in gun handling, but when you follow the other rules of safe handling a single mistake may be only embarrassing rather than disastrous. I have had that wake up of a second shot fired on the range that was not intended because I reset my trigger and adjusted my grip resulting in the discharge. Guns are designed to be inherently safe from self discharge and from dropping, its when the human is added we find that NO gun is idiot proof. One does need to be paranoid about gun safety. I have been muzzled by carriers who were trying holsters for their gun without clearing it first, yep, on that one I come unglued and give the offender a verbal warning after I move out of the line of fire. Always its the stupid and simple stuff.

  74. Dave Dolbee, so let me get this one point right, the picture of the person holding the Glock in the article is NOT the original author? He looks like a “”tester” and contributed to gun tests. Is that right? If so you should also make it clear that the pic is not related to the original author in your article. It looks as though he is going to have an AD or kill a munchkin.
    J

    1. The Police Sgt. is R K Campbell, known trainer, writer, and long time peace officer.

      This is from a Glock article on CTD as well.

      It illustrates I suppose that even a 1911 fan like myself will find the Glock combat worthy.

      RKC

  75. In all 3 of the accidents cited, an external safety would have no bearing on the outcome. In both of the first 2 accidents, the officers had drawn their pistols in the course of duty. If the pistols had external safeties, they would have been disengaged immediately after being drawn. In the third accident, a firearm that was supposed to be absolute-certain checked for clear was NOT clear. Only a fool would blame a safety, or trigger, or any other design feature of the firearm for the operator failing to clear the firearm before disassembly.

  76. The negligence issues are,of course, mental mistakes that could happen with any pistol. The reasoning is flawed. However, the defense of the short trigger pull also seems to fall into flawed reasoning category ( revolvers with safeties !)resulting from more than a share of fan-boy defense. The long trigger pull is a safety whether the author wants to admit or not.

  77. I would find the Glock line up as my first choice if I were making the choice of which side arm should serve for a department. I find Owen’s opinion entirely outside the facts of those cases mentioned and at odds with my personal experience. Shooting IPSC for more than twenty years I have seen millions of rounds sent down range by trained shooters under the stress of competition. I have never seen an AD from a Glock.

  78. I’m going to call BS on your training, the military never taught condition one as a means of duty carry. It taught that you carried the .45 with the hammer down, often on an empty chamber…..

  79. I believe Sam doesn’t understand either. You said “mishandled”. Any firearm is as safe as another as long as they are handled properly. You mentioned the 1911 has the double safety, but if you think about it, what officer trying to open a stuck door ( Not knowing what is on the other side of that door ) is going to switch the firearm to safety? In every instance that was brought up, the officer, or person would have been gripping the firearm, voiding your second safety argument. Firearm safety is the issue in every one of these situations. I am an officer, and while being trained, I was taught to keep my damn finger off the trigger until I was ready to shoot. Don’t blame the gun for incompetent or inattentive users.

  80. The anti-Glock article is pointless. It offers no alternatives and consistently points out the lack of discipline and training on the part of the discharging individual over actual mechanical failure on the part of the firearm. I, like every other swinging dork out there have an opinion on it. Here’s mine in three parts.
    First the firearm itself.
    I have little use for striker fired guns like the Glock where the striker is held under tension over a round in battery. I don’t trust it to carry and I never will. That’s my personal opinion based on more training than most and having enough rounds fired at me in anger to think my opinion is valid…. valid for me and only me.
    Is the Glock a fine firearm,? Yes, a well made, reliable tool. Is the Glock a good tool for law enforcement? Sure, with the proper training and consistent follow up training and then some more training after that.
    Part two, training.
    There is trained and there is not trained. Period. Want to carry a death dealing tool then train on it until you are comfortable using it to defend your family when you have no idea where they are in the house and every shadow, creaking board, every tiny gust of wind that registers on your adrenaline-amped senses could be an armed intruder or your dumb-ass teenager sneaking back from college to raid beer from the fridge at 2 AM. This dynamic applies to every single person with a readily deploy-able weapon in their possession. Train, then train again and once you feel comfortable with your training add another person to the mix and train with them. Can’t afford expensive classes? Who can. Buy AirSoft pistols and drill with them. Off subject but have dialog with your family about what to do if Dad or Mom is armed and clearing the house and how to announce yourself in the dark. Think and plan then train some more. It’s your duty and responsibility.
    Part three, law enforcement.
    Read the above except add warrant services, felony stops, traffic stops that escalate in milliseconds, active shooter scenarios, and every single CCW scenario you can imagine except your off-duty and carrying a gun that isn’t your duty weapon. Train!

  81. 1st let me say kudos to CTD staff who turned an op ed into an advertizing opportunity for their Glock Products.
    IMHO, the effect wanted by Owens was to obfuscate, overly complicate, and deliberately try to sidetrack the real issue at hand in LA county city and burbs, people are fed up and dema ding answers as to why cops are getting away with mayhem upon the populace..
    Owens is no dummy and the Glock finer points are well known to him and his pointing them out is wink wink to his cop followers. He has made the gun the Guilty party as to why so many shootings happen and the partners in that guilt are the ones who deny funding so the rookies would not make mistakes.
    As to calling Owens famous well he is a notorious Statist and cop-sucker extraordinare and a product of his own hype but gunsite days are gone and he needs the established orders of power to hype him even more.
    Once again the Glock was not the real object, but instead was a quite well done piece of propaganda and of course the gun gear queers jumped into the fray and removing any debate on police brutality and questionable killings of many years in extant.
    Question until you get an answer and then question the answer; if it is political as in guns abortions or rabid nationalism you find more lies behind the smoke and mirrors than what is obvious,
    Of course you can as usual just argue over angels and pin heads.

  82. I have a Glock 20 that shoots .10mm. Never had any problems with it. it shoots great, is very accurate, and feels like it has almost no recoil for shooting such a powerful caliber. I like shooting .10, .40, .45acp, .9mm, and .357 Magnum, and .357 Sig. I also shoot with a Kimber Pro Carry II in .45acp. It’s a very nice shooting gun and really, Kimber has taken the 1911 design and made as good as it gets to me. Really, I think this piece is a poorly disguised hit piece on guns, period. Growing up in So Cal and a member of the media, I know the Times. They are not conservative or gun friendly. Please don’t take this serious. It is totally with out merit.

  83. “Even the title is deceptive, because the whole article reads like an indictment on guns.”

    No it’s not. It is a well reasoned opinion on the relative safety of one firearm versus another. I happen to agree that a Glock lacks an effective external safety and is more likely to accidentally discharge if mishandled than is a “traditional” DA/SA firearm. If ones trigger finger slips into the trigger guard in the act of drawing the weapon, then the trigger mounted safety is easily overridden and posses a problem. The discussion of the 1911 is entirely out of context in this discussion. The 1911 can be carried “cocked and locked” precisely because it has two external safeties – on that is thumbed off and the other in the grip that must be compressed before the gun will fire.

    Just because a particular brand of firearm is popular or sells in large numbers does not make it a better choice for law enforcement than some other firearm that is inherently safer.

  84. How about we make the police officers, more training on the guns, not just marksmenship, but quick draws , fast reloading, etc…

    1. Seems no one is responsible for there own actions anymore….let’s blame improper training & lack of common sense on a firearm that has saved & protected more lives than can counted!
      Just write it off as another sign of our liberal, sign of the times.

  85. I was a big follower of Bob Campbell. Now, this makes everything he has written suspect in my opinion. This from a man who has endorsed the glock 19. I’m quite sure his opinion will no longer carry much weight with me and I may not even bother to read his articles.

    1. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Bob OWENS wrote the LA Times article, not Bob Campbell. That is Bob Campbell in the photo, but only because I had a stock photo of Campbell in uniform and shooting a Glock. Here is an article of Bob Campbell’s that the Shooter’s Log published a few of weeks ago. Why the Glock 23 Should be Your New Carry Gun By Bob Campbell. Believe me, Bob Campbell is a Glock fan! ~Dave Dolbee

    2. Russ,
      Bob Campbell did not write this article, nor did he write the article that Dave Dolbee is responding to. The author of the article in the LA Times is Bob Owens. He is an editor and writer at BearingArms.com. He has no affiliation with Cheaper Than Dirt!

  86. There is no firearm that is 100% safe. Police departments make their choice based on a number of factors. Ease of use in an emergency and reliability probably account for many of them choosing Glock. I prefer the Springfield XD myself. I like the additional 1911 style grip safety but accidental discharges are possible with any firearm if you are not properly trained or lose focus while handling your gun.

  87. I don’t have a problem with glocks or glocks in the hands if police officers. My problem lies in the current political and social climate around police shootings. A weapon with no external safeties is an obvious issue if an officer ever tried to claim accidental discharge or another mechanical failure. On top of that I think an officer should have to have a safety on his weapon to reinforce the philosophy that multiple choices must be made before a shoot and that those choices must be made with care and thought. An obvious remedy would be safeties. Officers makes decision to pull weapon, officer disengages safety, officer takes trigger control, officer fires. In a single fluid motion this can be done easily and quickly but that extra choice may make a difference that may save an innocents life and I think it should be there. Glock carrying officers don’t have that choice in their mental checklist but it can easily be argued it isn’t necessary or can be easiy replaced by another method. All in all it could go either way but it comes down to mental stability and good training which 99% of officers have.

  88. I have fired and owned numerous firearms. I was a weapons trainer for the MDOC.
    Blocks are in my opinion unsafe. They can say as they wish but I have no use for them. Even after training with them for 10 years. It is up to each agency to decide and up to the employer as in my case to choose the standard firearm for their use.
    I am now retired and I would still not waste my money on a Glock. There are many better as well as safer firearms available. Glock is just a brand to me that over time gained notoriety because some thought they were cool for some reason.
    Their safety only ensures your finger is on the trigger when pulled and that means anyone can grab one and fire it. At least with the first round in the majority of double action weapons it takes more then a tap to fire the weapon.
    Spend your money on a decent firearm and learn how to use it. I shot Glocks for over a year and still I wouldn’t recommend them.
    Just my opinion but that’s how I feel about them.

  89. It doesn’t matter whether it is the use of firearms, mace, stun gun, baton, flashlight, or other police gear proper training is the key. Not only training, but weekly use at a range or other facility. If you are going to have deadly weapons at your disposal you need to practice. This goes for officers as well as civilians.

  90. Hey! I have an idea…lets reissue the old Smith Model 10’s and Colt Police Positives and make the officers carry them in full flap holsters like the ones that were in vogue in the 1930’s. While we’re at it, lets take away OC and tazers too! Also, no speed loaders! We all know that cops don’t need to reload quickly….

    Blaming a pistol is the epitome of stupidity! Glocks are carried by, at the last count, 65% of all police departments. I have read a bunch of junk about manual safeties BUT the Sig series of service autos don’t have manual safeties, they have decockers. I know of no department that still issues or authorizes the old style of double action auto allowing them to be carried safety on. When my old department issued HK USP’s they had to be carried safety OFF! It was a three day suspension without pay if you were caught with the safety on. Jeff Cooper, who didn’t like double action autos said that a safety on a double action auto will get you killed.

    The pistol that is digging into Glock’s lead right now is the Smith M&P, another striker fired pistol. Yes, I do know that is is available with a manual safety but I only know on one agency that issues it that way. If you are uncomfortable carrying a Glock them by all means DON’T CARRY ONE!!! But to blame the pistol on being unsafe is like criminals blaming society on their problems. This is a backdoor form of gun control, plain and simple!

  91. I carry a glock the last 12 years I worked before I retired. It is the best gun in the world for police work. It never fails and I could count on it ever time. Any one who talks down on glock has never carry one in the line of duty and have no idea what they are talking about.

  92. In his defense, Bob Owens is far from a liberal idiot. I think he went afield on this subject. But then again, I don’t feel comfortable carrying a handgun with no safety except a complicated trigger mechanism. The overriding responsibility of CCW is to prevent accidental discharges. In a perfect world, “my finger is my safety” should work….but it is not a perfect world.

  93. “It might better be an indictment of proper training, gun safety measures by the police and General firearms education.”

    Finally, someone who gets it. You don’t give someone with a sixth grade education a post-graduate physics textbook, nor do you give a shooting dilettante (the average cop) something that’s more unsafe than the alternative FOR THEM. The proper tool for the proper job.

  94. Unfortunately those with a lack of brain matter between the ears is the whole point of why glocks are not for everyone. These incidents all could of been avoided with a manual safety and of course those who actually put to us that grey matter. More ammo for the gun grabbers is all it is.

  95. The lack of spelling and grammar in this professionally written op-ed is as appalling as the subject that is is written about.

  96. I began shooting revolvers as a teenager, then, in the Marine Corps, the 1911. Carried a S&W Model 66 as a rookie Houston Police Officer, then, after probation…I don’t know if I count the number of handguns I carried over the next 31 years. One thing I do know, I purchased one of the first Glock 17’s to hit the American Market in the 80’s and initially had my doubts about a weapon that felt like a water pistol after field stripping.

    You’ve heard it said that “The Proof is in the Pudding.” Well, after all of the handguns I carried over the years, I must say that the Glock is the most reliable, easiest to maintain, easiest to shoot…accurately and is offered in a sundry of calibers.

    Now that I am retired, I passed my Glock 22 onto my Son who took the Law Enforcement torch for the family. My retirement sidearm is a Gen 4, Glock 19 police model with night sights. The safety controversy regarding the Glock, or any pistol without an external safety, may have some merit, but if you practice indexing and maintain custody of your weapon at all times, I don’t think you could have a better friend than a Glock in a time of need, except perhaps the Lord Himself!

  97. Dave Dolbee is right on! Up ’til now, I’ve read Owens regularly, and his trash about Glocks really surprises me. Inadvertent discharges are a TRAINING problem, NOT a WEAPON problem, period.

  98. I have carried a first generation Glock 9mm as my primary duty weapon for 15 years. I retired as a Deputy Sheriff Lt. The Glock never failed me and I still carry it today for personal protection. I made no modifications to the Glock and replaced the recoil spring twice. Awesome Weapon. Thank you Glock.

  99. How did Bob Owens become an expert as a street cop? I have never seen his creds, but until he can prove he has been under fire and did everything perfectly, he should keep his dumb comments to himself. He, as the editor of Bearing Arms should be able to pinpoint the cause of the incidents he cites. It is called head up posterior, to clean it up. The only gun that can not be mishandled is one that will not chamber a round, or fire a projectile. Then some miscreant would use it for a club, and start another witch hunt. Considering the number of Glocks in service, and the number officers using them, and the notorious lack of training that most departments give their officers they have an admirable record of safety. Bearing Arms has just become one of my wouldn’t read on a bet publications. During this time of gun grabbing politicians, and the dislike many have for police officers for the small percentage of actual offenses, we don’t need an idiot like him fanning the flames of discontent. I personally own and use Glocks to qualify with, but my personal carry weapon is a 5 inch 1911 in .45 ACP. I have carried that very dangerous, according to many, weapon for 45 years without an accidental discharge, or even close to one. But I do keep my head out in the fresh air, and I do practice with it weekly, and run safety drills daily.

  100. Idiots abound, especially anti-gun idiots. Some rants are based in ignorance and others are intentionally dishonest. Some are both and this appears to be one.

    Typical liberal mindset has been exhibited here in that the author of the article fails to acknowledge the responsibility of the guns operator as the final and ultimate safety. Liberals never acknowledge personal responsibility unless it can be used to discredit or malign their opposition. In this case the author seems to be vacillating between blaming the gun and the police whom he thinks are incompetent and need a fool proof gun.

  101. I tell you what. All you people here trying to defend this article let me put it to you like this:

    They’re making a car that can drive itself. Is it safer? Hell no. It doesn’t have the one thing a manually driven car has that makes it safe. A human brain.

    There is no such thing as a “safe” gun. Guns were designed to kill. The only thing that makes a gun safe is the brain in the head of the person using it.

    You CAN, however, endanger the USER of a gun and all those around him/her by packing on all sorts of “safety features” designed to do one thing and one thing only, placate anti-gun people.

    1. “I tell you what. All you people here trying to defend this article let me put it to you like this:

      They’re making a car that can drive itself. Is it safer? Hell no. It doesn’t have the one thing a manually driven car has that makes it safe. A human brain.”

      I’ve read some ignorant things in the this thread, but this one takes the cake: Your analogy only works if it’s a self-shooting gun. Duh.

      To put what you’re saying into an effective car analogy is, “My car doesn’t need anti-lock brakes, a seatbelt, or airbags because I’m not planning on ever having an accident.”

    2. And you are an excuse monger. It’s always the gun’s fault. Personal responsibility. Learn it. Live it.

      Before all your fancy anti-lock brakes, seatbelts and airbags we had skill. People knew how to drive and when they were in the car they were DRIVING.

      Now we have women driving with a knee to put on makeup, people eating while driving, texting while driving and generally not paying attention BECAUSE somebody told them the car was safe with all these fancy gadgets.

      No sir. You have your head on wrong. Skill, training, awareness and most of all personal responsibility.

      These things cannont be replaced by gadgets or “safeties”.

      My analogy was sound. Your mindset is not.

    3. “My analogy was sound.”

      …as sound as a Glock’s safety. Yep, I’ll give you that.

    4. I would suggest that with your attitude and obvious lack of critical thinking skills you might want to avoid owning a firearm.

      Actually I’d say in your case you should avoid owning anything sharp, or with moving parts, or that gets hot, or can pinch, or could scratch or might trip you or that you could hit your head on……okay, maybe that last one would be good for you.

    5. Does your mommy know you’re using her computer, little boy? Better run back upstairs before she catches you!

      Seriously, does she help you do the math problems for each post?

  102. I have a great respect for glocks, if someone wants a plastic gun, fine by me, to each his own, i personally found that when they first came onto the market i bought one, still have it laying in a draw around here some place, i use to go to the range every day, everyday i shot the new gun, the glock preformed well until it had about five thousand rounds though it, then it began to rattle and jam, and had a few hang fires, still they must have improved them a great deal since then because nearly everyone talks about them, but personally I just can’t put faith in a plastic gun. I am not a hater, just from personal experience and I have formed my own opinion about the gun, haven’t shot a newer model glock, stubborn and opinionated I just refuse to change my point of view. good luck to all of you that like them and own them, I hope they are everything you want them to be. Have a marvelous day all.

  103. Even before reading the article, I noticed the officer in the picture above had his finger on the trigger. I have never been military or LEO, but that rule I have pounded into my head. I have other bad habits, but I work on my draw daily and do it without my finger on the trigger. So much so, that I wonder if, when I really need to fire, will I get ON the trigger fast enough? Probably. I haven’t read the anti-Glock article, but I am as shocked as the author of this present article.

  104. Back when i was a kid i couldnt touch a firearm without my father..
    He taught me that they kill and to handle as such.. what happened to commen sense and training with a basic pistol ???
    I was never in the military ,but i have a HEALTHY respect for any and all firearms and to treat all and always as if they are loaded…
    Training,training,training,traing..
    A bunch of xbox and plastation arm chair heros wanting to play with guns in a video game and never respect or have common sense towards real firearms and think its a game …
    I was raised on a farm and we butchered our animals to eat … It was taught to respect all life !!!
    Training and knowing your gun …practice practice practice and it all starts with the BASICS ……

  105. “I totally agree, the safety can be the difference between live or die in a confrontation”

    And the lack of one can be the same thing…for someone else.

    1. We aren’t talking about legos here. If the person handling the firearm isn’t qualified or trained or has the wherewithal to have it they will create an unintended deadly situation.

      Nitpicking things like external and internal safeties is the way a liberal deflects the actual argument to “nobody should have a gun”.

      It’s stupid, a ludicrous argument and only a liberal intent on taking guns away from law abiding citizens would make it.

      A gun is designed to kill. Period. If it discharges on its own, doesn’t discharge when it should or has other design flaws that take away from its ability to kill on demand it is a worthless tool to be discarded.

      EVERYTHING ELSE is dependent on the user of the tool. Period.

  106. As shooting enthusiast and martial artist with ac skill level a bit over the average in both. The is the average police officer has very little prior training in either of these endeavors before before the job. Glocks on the other hand all typically shoot extremely accurately but for a service weapon, not the best choice. A firearm with its safety in its trigger puts a loaded weapon in the hands of a bad guy (God forbid the gun being taken from them at close quarters and actual external safeties). I my opinion there are several much better sidearm options with true external safeties that would give said officer several invaluable seconds to retrieve his or her weapon or call into service a backup weapon. As for the Texas incident, that officer is an exception to rule (great job). Considering the national hit ratio for police in shootings hovers around 12% is a really really scary fact (cases in point N. Hollywood back robbery or shots expended when the Torrance PD shot up the vehicle and houses when the two older ladies were in they’re pickup truck). Not to piss anyone off but practice across board is a must. Both points would save lives with fewer accidental tragedies.

    1. Spell and grammar check. For the love of humanity, SPELL CHECK before adding your two cents and trying to sound sophisticated!

  107. Liberal claptrap on parade.

    The axiom is the same regardless of the weapon:

    “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.”

    You don’t blame the hammer when a wall isn’t straight. That would be just as silly as the nonsense in this article.

    Bob Owens, turn in your man card and pick up a hillary button on the way out the door.

  108. When the Glock came out it was a different gun. But now are there better, safer guns than the Glock, YES. Now if you love your Glock great but in days past I am sure some people loved their buggy and horse and hated those new fangled cars great. But time goes on and let’s talk solitons and not the tired Glocktard debate.

  109. Remember how safe revolvers are, with a long double action pull, or for precision shooting you can cock it for single action? And all the cops had them. Glock is NOT that weapon. It is unsafe and a horrible design having a precocked striker and just a stupid useless trigger lever safety. What a joke. Glock’s internet followers and marketing is putting people in danger. Give it up, Glock. At least 1911’s can be cocked and locked. But the Glock? It’s cocked and not locked.

    1. Blaming the tool for operator error I see. Your argument is ludicrous as all of the above mentioned scenarios could just as easily happened with a revolver or an external safety semi-auto.

      If you think a cop is walking into a dangerous situation with the safety on, you’ve never been in a dangerous situation with a hand gun.

      If you give a gun (read anything that shoots a bullet) to an untrained or poorly trained individual to handle on a daily basis it is only a matter of time before an accidental discharge happens.

      Stop blaming guns for the shortfalls of men and women. You sound like a lunatic liberal.

    2. That’s interesting. I must have gotten a faulty Glock. It has never fired when I didn’t want it to. I even carry it everywhere I go with a round in the chamber. Maybe some people are negligent enough to forget safety rules, but a different gun design isn’t going to fix that every time. If anything it just makes them more careless.

    3. Yes, Chris, I remember the reliable revolver. I also remember when we were limited to six rounds before having to reload, one cartridge at a time in a hole in a cylinder that was basically the same size as the cartridge you were trying to insert. Try that some time in the dark under fire. It is a test of your nerves for sure. I also remember the trigger pull on some of the department issue revolvers were so stiff and rough that it was almost impossible to hit anything more than four feet from the muzzle. The department Armour could clean the barrel and cylinder, but was worthless for any real repair. It was worth days off to pull the side plate on a department weapon, so most of us worked overtime to buy our own. That produced many revolvers with a single action trigger that tripped if you breathed on it. Once I got in plain clothes, the first thing I bought was a 1911 .45 ACP as we had the option to carry any weapon above .38 caliber. This also allowed us to carry worth while ammo, instead of the ,38 158 lead semi wad cutter at 850 fps that was department issue. Don’t try to tell me about the good old days. I was there, and they weren’t so great after all.

  110. Wally, mil-spec is an exacting environmental conditions set of standards, where the device under test will operate correctly and it will not be degraded or damaged.

  111. Any qualified instructor will tell you a semi-auto requires more training for 2 reasons: 1) the complexity of the weapon lends itself to more potential failures, i.e. failure due to bent mag lips, using ammo with bullets other than round nose, etc. and 2) the ease with which it can be operated lends itself to accidental discharges. These are facts that cannot be disputed. However, the increased firepower, speed and accuracy (due to shorter and lighter trigger pull) are desirable so additional and constant training is required to offset those 2 negatives. If law enforcement was required to practice to maintain proficiency and accuracy there would be less accidental shootings. What most many law enforcement officers are required to (and compensated for) qualification each year is equal to what I used to shoot in a day when I was an active law enforcement officer. I am told that budgets do not allow for regular qualification as ammo and overtime is costly. I guess I just don’t get the new math since it seems much cheaper to me to buy some ammo and pay some overtime than to settle a couple wrongful death lawsuits…….

  112. Dear Dave Dolbee. I find your article biased. On the one hand you ask us what WE think, yet your article is mostly a defense FOR Glocks. You really should have been more neutral or at least just presented what Bob Owens said and let us decide for ourselves instead of obviously arguing with the points Bob Owens made and being defensive in obvious favor of Glocks.

    I invented Bumpfire stocks, am a former Marine and I’ve been a shooter and around firearms all my life and I happen to completely agree with Bob Owens statement regarding Glocks of: “The underlying problem with these pistols is a short trigger pull and the lack of an external safety.””.

    Whether you or Glock affectionados like hearing the truth or not, Owens nailed it exactly. The Glock’s “safety” paddle on the trigger is no safety at all because it disengages as you pull the trigger….which has a very short trigger pull. I agree with him that double action revolvers or semi-autos would be much better for poorly trained officers since it takes a very deliberate pull on the trigger to fire them. I have never been nor ever will be a fan of a design that puts the safety on the trigger. To me that is moronic. Why have a safety at all? And the reality is….it isn’t a safety at all. So why have it? Like I said…moronic.

    A S&W Glock clone (but that has an external safety not located on the trigger), 1911, PT92, Sig, a revolver, or heck….even a Russian Tokarev pistol which has no safety (as made in Russia, they only have safeties put on them because of U.S. import laws) is safer than a glock because at least (except for revolvers) those other ones have external thumb safeties that aren’t located on the damn trigger and the Russian version of the Tokarev that has no safety at all at least has a hammer half cock notch and not the idiotic safety on the trigger nor the easy short trigger pull of a glock. Glocks are just accidents waiting to happen….and they do…..frequently. There’s a reason the term is called “Glock leg”…..instead of “1911 leg”. Glock should follow S&W’s lead and make their Glock to be sure, but put a damn external thumb safety on it and make the first pull harder like on a double action revolver. Then it would be okay.

    Please people, quit trying to justify a flawed design just because of your ego of owning one. We can put an accelerator on the roof of the car and have a big hand lever for the brake and steer with our feet and then say….”Well if you train properly you shouldn’t have any wrecks or problems, but common sense says WHY DESIGN IT LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    1. Bill,
      Thank for reading. If you read a defense for Glocks, I would recommend reading it again. Check any of my previous articles and you will find several references to a SIG 228 that has been my primary carry since the mid ’90s. I disagree. However, I do own several Glocks, shoot and carry them often.

      An external safety would not have helped in either of Owens’ rookie scenarios. Once the officer had drawn his sidearm, I believe the safety would have been disengaged and the result the same. As for the length of trigger pull, I would disagree again. Muscling through a stuck door with finger on the trigger or being startled in a dark stairway… there is no proof a longer trigger pull would have prevented either of these officer’s from a negligent discharge. Safe weapon handling would have.

      The third scenario where the officer was ready to field strip and shot a fellow officer is 50-50 at best. The Glock design requires the operator to pull the trigger to disassemble the pistol — a fair criticism against the design. However, any shooter — never mind a police offer — knows better than to have the muzzle pointed in an unsafe direction, at another person etc. during any handling; never mind when you are pulling the trigger. You simply cannot blame the gun for unsafe handling. My six-year-old who has never fired more than a blue gun at a laser target knows better! In fact, all three of the scenarios Owens’ uses as the basis for his argument fall squarely on safe handling, not a failure of the design. Those are the points I rebutted. No where in the article did I advocate for Glock. However, in review articles on various Glock models I certainly would, but this was not a gun review.

      The purpose of the safe action system (safety on the trigger) is to prevent the pistol from being fired when the trigger is not depressed. This is critical, as I am sure a professional such as yourself knows, when the gun is dropped. Search YouTube or any other outlet and you will plenty of “1911 Leg” or any other pistol-leg you choose. All are the result of unsafe handling, quick draw, poor quality carry equipment etc. Again, nothing presented has shown the Glock to be unsafe or less safe than the way is was handled by the shooter.

      The first thing I did with two of my Glocks was send them to a qualified gunsmith for work. The stock triggers were swapped for lighter triggers with a short reset. Knowing a little something about law enforcement, I know this is typically not allowed for law enforcement. The liability would be too high. Several comments here have already pointed out that many law enforcement officers (Owens’ New York examples included) did not have stock triggers. The officers have special models with heavier triggers, yet they still had the negligent discharges because of unsafe handling. I own a used Glock with just such a trigger. It breaks at over 8 pounds.

      I have yet to see any proof from you, Bob Owens or anyone else that the Glock design, or striker-fired pistols in general, are less safe. In the military, during a time when we carried 1911s, I saw more than one taken away for negligent discharges — especially when trying to lower the hammer with a round chambered. It all comes down to safe handling and the proper equipment. ~Dave Dolbee

  113. I haven’t followed the entire thread, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned, but Glocks have multiple safeties including a trigger safety, firing pin safety and out-of-battery safety. Why on earth would you opt for additional, external safeties that could impede your reaction time in a gun fight?

    I have attended many “high speed” gun fighting courses with multiple law enforcement officers from state, county and federal levels. Even those with advanced training had the occasional hang up with the external safeties used on the Beretta F2 carried by county deputies, the S&W 4006 carried by CHP and the Sig p220 carried by federal agents.

    When you’re in a fight for your life, one of these hang-ups could be the difference between winning and losing.

  114. I’m not a big fan of Glocks personally, but they have been the most tested hand gun in history. Everything that was in the article sounds like an attempt to ban Glocks and other similar weapons from private hands. CA. is infamous for just that type of crap. Seems like more and better training of LEO’s would get better results than trying to find a pistol that makes stupid people look good.

  115. This Owens guy claims to be an alumni of Gunsite; I would think he knows better.
    To me the simple fact is that the mentioned police officers should not have guns to begin with. If they are going about their business with their fingers in the trigger guard, they should be parking meter maids instead.

  116. Everyone has their own opinion. My opinion is that I prefer my Ruger SR series. I LIKE the idea of an external safety. Sweeping the manual safety off with your thumb upon drawing becomes as natural as breathing, and does not slow down your draw.

  117. Modern pistols do not kill,people do.
    If you are an untrained guy in the use of firearms the possibility to have an accident will be the same once the gun is out of the holster having or not external safety.
    The professionals most of the time do not use the safety,because in a critical situation this can make the difference.
    Glock is a weapon created for professionals and I believe our police is professional,of course there are accidents that’s we call accidents.

  118. I have to agree on both sides of the issue. Yes , there were mistakes done by the LEO’s , but also , you cant rule out the human factor. It does not matter how much you train everyone is different and react differently to a situation. Yes, the perfect use of a glock in a situation under stress would have to be that ,..”just perfect” , and there are too many variables involved in the human factor to expect perfection in every case. They ask, what double action handgun would be better? I have my answer to you and my personal choice. CZ-75 either full or compact, or the .40 variant. It is a 1911 with a double action mechanism and a decocker. With the gun loaded and decocked it gives a perfect middle position that is strong enough to avoid an unintended discharge but light enough to get the work done when necessary, and then your following shots will be single action light. Also ,practicing the Israeli method of unholstering your gun along with this specific gun, would completely minimize or eliminate this kind of accidents. Thats my 2 cents and my opinion, based on experience and training.

  119. I had a Glock 33 in .357 Sig and the gun blew up in my hand. Left with a blown lower and a clip completely destroyed. I contacted Glock and sent the remains back to the service department. They returned it to me and said that there was nothing they could do but offer me another one at cost. I thought this was crazy that they would not back their product. I went to the NRA gun show and meeting in Nashville and met their Technical Service Manager at their booth. I explained to him what took place and he said send it back and we will replace it. Until that time I was very anti Glock and have since changed my mind.

  120. Finally someone has had the guts to say it. I would not be in the slightest surprised to learn the there have been more ADs with no hand on the gun with Glocks than with Colt 1911s since they were put in production almost 100 years ago and they have been produced by the millions. The record is pretty clear that the Glock is a poorly thought out design with safety issues. This trumps everything else. Cheap and accurate is irrelevant if the owner blows a hole in his leg or butt when he is not even touching the pistol. Has nothing to do with nerves or stress. ADs with the pistol in a holster. ANYTHING gets on the trigger like something unseen getting in the holster and the pistol can and WILL fire if the trigger is contacted. There are NUMEROUS videos of ADs from security cameras. If a LEO cannot manipulate a safety without unnecessary delay then perhaps they need a couple of weeks more training or a different line of work. I have never read an account of Bill Hickok forgetting to cock his Cot Navy revolvers. But the DID shoot them everyday. Like his life depended on it. Cops should be on the range once a week. But of course then they would need to hire more cops and furnish more ammo…. Better to spend the time and money on PC social worker crap.

  121. Even in this article the Sgt. in the photo has his finger on the trigger before it should be. That is unless he is about to shoot a grasshopper, that he isn’t looking at, on the ground……

    Training !!

    As far as why the Glock is so ubiquitous in police departments, I can only speak on my department. The Glock was adopted for several reasons as mentioned by other respondents, but the absolute biggest reason was that it was the CHEAPEST.

    1. Good catch on the photo. I missed that.

      I was taught to never rely on the safety. They can and do fail.

  122. Striker fired weapons such as the Glock are very accurate and great shooting firearms.

    But…Personally…They scare me. Sure…i get the firearm safety aspect and totally understand that the finger should not be on the trigger.
    But…In real world scenarios…Humans are not perfect and under high stress situations accidents can happen and one can inadvertantly place the finger on the trigger. At that stage…I find the trigger too easy to pull that first shot.
    Personally, I much prefer a Sig style trigger such as the P225 or P226. No safety, just a long action…double action for the first shot.

  123. It really should be left to the individual to determine the best firearm for his or her needs. I have 3 glocks and have several other handguns. I usually carry the G26 but I don’t recommend it for people who don’t train and take concealed carry seriously. It only takes a moments carelessness to create a tragedy. That being said- there is no flaw in Gaston Glocks design. In all those cases it was operator error that led to the accidental discharge.

  124. Personally i think mr owens needs to get his facts in order, it all boils down to gun training and safety, and as for the gentleman talking about law enforcement officers not being properly trained is just flat wrong,officers are extremely trained and are not told its ok to miss. And that need to have semi autos because 99% of the criminals out there are armed better then the officers, so why dont you bash the criminals on the weapons they carry because their the most dangerous ones

  125. When Police carried revolvers, they were trained how shoot the weapon. When Police switched to semi-autos, they were taught to point and shoot, pulling the trigger until the gun is empty.

    A lot of those accidents mentioned, occurring with a GLOCK weapon is the result of a poorly trained Officer. One who shoots only at the range, when he has to re-certify. One who was trained to point and shoot, until empty. Most Police should only carry a ten round clip in the weapon, and larger (17 or 19) back up magazines on their belt for when needed. They should be taught to hit the center of target, whether it is the chest or head. one bullet, one kill. Think about it…

  126. I’m not a Glock fan despite their widespread usage by both LE and recreational shooters. And they are proven to be well made and accurate. I just don’t want a semi-auto without a safety. I would also agree with a previous commenter regarding the common lack of firearms proficiency by the majority of the police I have seen placed in a shooting situation.

    I can guarantee you that the officer that squashed the two terrorists in Texas last week with a pair of head shots doesn’t go to the range only to meet departmental requirements. His life is on the line daily and he knows that at some point in his career he will need that skill. To that end, maybe we should have drawing contests in all American cities with a population of 30,000+ so we can take out the trash two at a time.

  127. When the folks who have a choice to protect Life choose Glock by a huge margin I believe it speaks for itself.

  128. It needs a manual safety, the magazine disconnects, grip safeties and trigger safeties are not very safe and have been proven many times in studies. Also, there are more accidental shootings these days since they took the manual safeties off most of the pistols. They just need to train more and more, use a type of confidence course simular to the military to prevent rookie nervousness accidents and slip of the finger squeezes!!

  129. I am a retired narcotics cop. For many years I was the number 1 man on our entry team. I made sure the number 2 guy, the guy right on my “6” was not carrying a Glock. I had enough to worry about in front of me and was not going to risk getting shot in the back. When evaluating new weapons for departmental purchase we shot several manufacturers’ pistols. Glock informed us their pistols could be buried in dirt, dug up and fired without failure. I recommended they bury the Glocks and don’t bother to dig them up.

  130. Every instance of a problem mentioned in the article had to do with basic gun safety violations – lack of care and probably poor technique. I don’t see where the Glock design is inherently bad and was responsible for causing these mishaps. If you want a gun with a safety or de-cocking lever, then go buy one. I have Glocks, Sigs , and Berettas and they are all fine. My Sig (p229/40) recently blew out the extractor and I sent him to the Sig Spa to be reconditioned. He is happy now.

  131. Wow, what a minefield.!Apples vs. oranges and cherry picking facts! In a perfect world, all safe gun handling rules would be followed and the finger would be outside of the trigger guard until your were consciously firing. Since that isn’t the case I think one has to look at the firearms using the same criteria and not the manufacturer’s hype. Simply stated, a loaded Glock pistol is not as safe as a loaded Colt 1911 without the safety engaged, The 1911 has a grip safety, the Glock does not. Would anyone carry a 1911 cocked without the safety engaged, nope.So why a Glock? Some 1911’s have a heavier trigger pull than most Glocks. Those that credit the tab on the trigger of the Glock as a safety have to remember that the tab is on the trigger that you are not supposed to put your finger on in the first place! Safe trigger bypassed!

  132. Glocks have more problems than the absence of a method to make it securely safe. Glocks have a reputation of going kaboom. Look up on google. There are good theories, and Glock has upgraded the design to deal with the causes. In early times fired cases showed a bulge due to poor chamber support. Barrel leading was worse due to the polygonal rifling. Sometimes a squib load would do it. They gave reloading a bad name. Back to the safety issue. If a manual safety is so egregious to Glock fans, there is another alternative. Incorporate a decocker and true double action, first shot, mode into the design. Calling that little blade in the center of the trigger ‘the safety’ is absurd. One has to admit. The pistol is smooth, kind of tapered, comes out of a holster easily, is ambidextrous, large mag capacity, and only takes a finger to fire it. No protruding safety, no thumb paddles on each side to mess with. It’s made for battle.

    1. Sorry, the old wives tales of “kaboom” are just that. The military fire tested multiple Glocks for over a million rounds and no kabooms in all that testing. Yes lead fouling does occur, but that is what gas checks are for, and no lead fouling any more!

      Great weapon and could have had the U.S. Air Force’s contract, if the had had the plant in Georgia, and weren’t only being made in Europe at the time of the competition.

    2. Glock owners are in denial about the kabooms. Look at google images for ‘Glock kaboom’ and compare the sheer number of pictures to ‘Hi Point kaboom’, as a comparison to a firearm that has more haters that any. The only way anyone has ever got a Hi Point to blow up is to force it to fail with a C-clamp! Glocks fail many times over. Glock are made to use under very controlled, specific conditions. They have a high degree of reliability under those conditions. No this, no that, use new factory ammo etc. I have two Glocks in my collection. I like them. They are versatile, in that they can easily be converted between 9mm and 40 S&W. They feed cheaper steel case ammo reliably for range use. I don’t feel the need to reload for them. What I am saying is that one should be objective in considering Glocks and be willing to accept the truth. They sure have some drawbacks. In a carry gun, I want more features.

    3. I’m glad somebody actually said that about Hi Points. I have NEVER seen or heard as many haters of a particular gun in my life. I own some (.40 pistol/ rifle) and have never had a FF or DF. But my point is, for all of the bad comments, 90% or more are Glock owners.

    4. I have a range of handguns from high end to low end. I wanted a Hi Point to experience how it functions. At least that’s a good enough excuse. I ended up with a 45, 40, and 9mm, and a 40 carbine. Great guns. I bought the Glocks for the same reason. I have found that as far as reliability is concerned there is no difference. I believe that the HP haters are mostly of low intelligence and need something to bash to build up their ego. It’s band wagon that the uninformed get on. I think that the arithmetic problem in the box below weeds some of them out.

    5. “….a reputation of going kaboom….”

      Somewhat undeserved. Glock voids the warranty with the use of non-factory ammunition, and does not recommend lead bullets use, jacketed only. Many, so called kabooms (kb) are ‘owner generated.’ There have been a ‘few’ factory overcharge kb’s. Most kb’s occur with commercially remanufactured or personally reloaded ammunition. Although a few kb’s occurred in other cal., the 40 S&W experienced the most. Most due to max+ reloads in that “unsupported” chamber. Want a ‘magnum,’ don’t attempt making a Glock 40 S&W into one!

      All who reload desire to get the maximum life out of their cases, that being a large part of the expense to ea round. Personally, I would not be using the same case with anything like maximum loads more than once. Recycle that max shot brass into the practice bin for lighter loads! Time consuming to keep brass separated into ‘reloaded # lots,’ but only way to know that it ‘might not’ have been your fault when you blew your gun up or, worse, your hand off!

      I run very little but MAXED OUT loads through my 29 – if you don’t want a 10MM result (almost 41 magnum w/6″ 10mm), shoot a 40 or a 9. I have yet to have a “smiley.” I use new brass the first time through, and ‘download’ “slightly” to practice for that group only twice – discard thereafter. That ‘carry’ load goes @1235-50 out of the 29 and @1400 from my BarSto 6″ – 180 Speer GDHP. It corresponds to what Buffalo Bore’s 180 gr load runs – they use the exact same bullet/case.

      Another issue with kb’s comes from bullet set back. The simple chambering and rechambering of a cartridge does push the bullet back into its case – many police departments ran into this problem. Consider 1/10″ set back can cause pressures to double from 35,000 psi to 70,000 psi. No less an issue to consider for the reloader in “seating depth” with these high pressure loads.

      I like the fact that Glocks go kaboom much more reliably, in our experience, than most anything else. Although target stuff only, we have run over 150,000 rounds through ‘one’ Glock 17 – with just firing pin and attendant spring replacements over that time – @no expense, replaced by Glock free of charge! The slide, now, actually could/should be replaced, the firing pin hole is larger than the original slant – no doubt that having been the result more of ‘dry firing’ than those 150,000 kabooms….

      Forgive the long post; however, ‘everyone’ using a Glock can reasonably expect NO “bad” kabooms, with ‘reasonable’ safety precautions! By the way, I was no fan of these “plastic guns,” in the early years – ‘heavy metal’ stuff was my creed – until I was proven NOT smart….. 😉

    6. I haven’t saw a mil-spec for any Glock.
      I have saw specs for the M1911A1 and the rubbish Baretta 92FS.
      My unit gave up on the Baretta and ordered M1911A1’s.

      But, I’ll simply say, duty requirements, environment and preference.

    7. mil-spec my derriere. that don’t mean squat or the military would not issue Glocks to their most high powered, well trained personnel!

    8. John,.. Ill give a name to what you just described and everyone who have tested or owned one will agree with me. CZ-75 PCR compact or the full size one. Both in 9mm and .40. You are right on spot.

    9. I keep telling myself that I have all the guns I need. But after reading your post and reconsidering the CZ-75 PCR, I may have been hasty. It has everything.

  133. No matter how well trained, no matter how disciplined, accidents happen. I named two instances, but there are thousands of accidental discharges that could have been prevented with a simple device: manual safety.

    1. This is true there is a video of a DEA Agent shooting himself in the foot in front of a class room of children.

    2. Loaded weapon, class full of school children? That’s a non thinking day, unless he is there to stop another Newtown. Show and tell is a cleared and safes weapon event!

    3. Exactly how do manual safeties prevent negligent discharges?

      Truth is they don’t. Often with pistols the safety goes off as soon as it leaves the holster. When its in the holster it wont go off anyway unless the weapon is legitimately broken.

      So I ask again do the prevent NDs?
      Flick it on and off every time you fire? You have more important things to worry about than figuring out why your gun isn’t shooting.

    4. Plenty of accidental discharges of handguns WITH manual safeties. No safety will ever replace good training. But they can compliment each other. I have personally seen 3 accidental discharges with the Beretta M9. Two into a clearing barrel, one into a wall. All individuals had carried the M9 for 3-15 years. Seen a retired cop put a hole through his wife’s new dining room table with his Colt Commander. Not so much training but complacency. The Glock’s trigger is not to blame for AD’s where the gun is in use. Period. You could mark an argument that it could be dangerous during disassembly, but even then, you should have properly cleared your pistol first. If you didn’t, you are too stupid to carry one and need to find another profession. It’s not rocket science. Shackling yourself with a pistol that has a 10-12 pound trigger, doesn’t necessarily eliminate AD’s either. Depending on the pistol with that heavy of a trigger you could pull your first shot and miss your target and hit some innocent bystander. As for the DEA agent despite calling his Glock .22 a Glock 40, was only shooting himself in the foot to make a point to the young kids in the classroom 😉

    5. No external safety can prevent stupid. If you don’t clear your weapon and dry fire it in a safe direction, someone will get hurt, safety or no safety.

      Thousands of lives have been saved in combat, with the idea that my finger is my safety. And by the same token, safeties on handguns ie 1911s, cost plenty of officers their lives. You must build the habit pattern of when a weapon is drawn, the safety goes off…and we are back to ‘my finger is my safety’.

      Using a weapon takes thought and purpose. Can’t ever take a no thinking day, period!

    6. NO.
      There are no accidents; only negligent discharges.
      These acts of negligence have occurred because the users have all failed to follow basic safety rules.
      To rely on a safety device as a way to make up for poor gun handling skills is another mark of the careless user.

  134. We agree – the design of Glock handguns is inherently unsafe. What about my comment is “non relevant Red Herring BS?”

  135. The article is misnamed, “Why the Police Shouldn’t Use Glocks” ,
    It should be “Why the Dilettantes Shouldn’t Use Glocks”
    Or perhaps
    “Professionals Use 1911s”

  136. I was not trained in the military, on the 1911, so I prefer a reliable weapon that does not require me to remember something before I use it (I like Sig’s P226, P239, P220).
    Also, I think the mission of military and law enforcement allows them to “expect” to encounter a bad situation beforehand. This permits releasing types of retention holsters, flaps, and possibly taking off a safety.
    An off-duty LEO, or myself, can encounter an unexpected situation. I don’t want to have to “remember” the safety.

    1. I totally agree, the safety can be the difference between live or die in a confrontation

  137. I think Owens is an idiot. If he’s in the gun business then he has no right to complain about another manufactures products. He needs to wake up to reality.

  138. Finally someone who at least is looking at the problem ,and not going off on the tangent regarding the old glocktard arguments.
    J

    1. I tend to agree that the Glock is not the ideal police weapon! I have a glock 357 sig and have shot IDPA with it ! the trigger is light at under 4 pounds and those who do not practice with such a gun may have Accidental Discharge issues if training is not up to snuff. Cops are not always “SHOOTERS” and therefore perhaps returning to the old mod 66 S&W would be safer and better? Personally I favor arming cops with pump shotguns when they are going into a dangerous situation and more training for sure.

  139. As a twenty-five year law enforcement veteran, LE firearm instructor, civilian instructor, Jeff Cooper Gunsite Graduate, SWAT tEAM member, Glock armorer and carrier of the Glock 21 and a 1911A1 for all those years i have to disagree with Mr. Owens. Those incidents he cites are a common occurance with any handgun, not just Glocks. Safety begins between your ears, your training and your apptitude for firearms. If you train properly you will perform on the street properly. Getting excited is part of the LE business and that shoild also be part of the training. Stress can affect anyone’s judgement but training for it (stress) . will alleviate the mistakes a great deal.
    When Mr. Ownems mentions the 1911A1 and letting the hammer down. He is showing his ignorance of the use of the particular gun. Why are you letting rhe hammer down when the gun is carried in a cocked and locked position. I’m sure the militarry training had something to do with that as thry treat all recruits as idiots and Mr Owens seems to be a gradate/casualty of that training.. I’m a proud owner of a Glock and find it to be a very fine weapon.

  140. I own Beretta 92s and I have NEVER had an accidental fire. I also own some Ruger 9s and same story. The few times that I’ve shot Glocks I couldn’t hit squat and the trigger pull did seem too short and too soft. When we used revolvers for police work, it took a much more positive pull. Semi’s make the 2+ shots faster and more accurate, but also easier for an accident. It’s still not clear to me if Glock’s have a problem, but I know for sure that Beretta’s don’t.

    1. The 92F issued to the military in the field has had plenty of unintentional discharges, with the ‘safety on’. I treated several of them in Iraq. I agree, the safety starts between your ears. You may never have been firing under duress, stuff can happen then. My finger is my safety!

  141. I think your presentation is completely dishonest.

    The reality is that negligent fires and innocent people being shot is pretty common.

    The reality is that for Police Officers, they are much better off with a revolver than a semi auto for the simple reason that Police by the very nature of their poor firearms skills are much more dangerous than if they were carrying revolvers.

    If it were up to me, they shouldn’t be carrying firearms at all, but some kind of advanced form of stun guns.

    The reality is that police officers just don’t train adequately enough to be proficient with firearms.

    We even teach officers that it is okay to miss. It isn’t .

    When you miss with a firearm in a highly dense urban area, there is no telling where that projectile actually goes. It could kill anyone.

    It really is high time that we had a logical and rational conversation about the poor police training methodologies currently in use, and the poor performance of police officers in shooting and hitting bad guys.

    At the very least, the distances that police are allowed to fire needs to be revisited.

    Rather than you opining about your feelings, why not have this conversation based on statistical realities and real world experiences?

    If you would do that, I’m pretty confident that you would come to a different conclusion.

    I own two Glocks. I used to own three. And while i am pretty comfortable with them, I don’t think that these guns are for everyone, especially those with poor nerves.

    It would be completely accurate to say that we train our police dogs and screen for better nerves and a better psychological profile than we do police officers. That is very sad.

    1. I also own two Glocks. I am also certified to teach handgun classes in TN for those desiring a handgun permit. One important thing we teach as a part of hand gun safety is, “Keep your finger off the trigger until you have your sight picture and are ready to shoot.” Accidental discharges are seldom the fault of the pistol. They almost always are the fault of the person handling the firearm. Unless a modern firearm has a bad mechanical defect, or someone worked on it who didn’t know what he was doing, it can be dropped and will not fire. Law officers are taught the safety rules. When they neglect that training, they put themselves and others in jeopardy. In our classes, we make sure the student leaves all ammo in the car before entering the classroom. We also check everyone’s pistol before they enter the class. A lot of the class is spent talking about “safety, safety, safety.” It is impossible to recall a bullet released by the foolishness of pulling the trigger to show the firearm is not loaded!

    2. Have to disagree… no Police Range Master or Instructor would teach any officer that it is okay to miss for the following reasons… one is that a miss means it is going somewhere other than where it should and the second is it means the officer has continued to place himself if not others in danger by missing his intended target.

      If you have to blame someone blame society. Police have been taught excellent marksmanship skills but come under community scrutiny and often federal because of their performance so the results are to change the techniques.

      I went through no less than 8 different techniques over the years reason was when an excellent system was taught (Instinct Shooting) and the number of kills went up in shootouts all you heard was “trigger happy” or ” trigger happy killers” and scream to the Feds about that departments standards. So if the standards are bad it is because law enforcement finds itself misunderstood as to the exact nature of the tools it uses and is often compelled to compromise training to reduce perceived use of that tool.

      All Police Instructors want their charges to be able to handle their weapon with proficiency and effectiveness when needed. I agree that it isn’t enough to go to a range only to qualify. It should be practiced with on a bimonthly bases at the very least and dry fire training as well. The problem is police can’t help but react to public perception and over time it effects performance.. I find that it takes leadership, with some moxy, to educate the public as to why these tools are really necessary and not fall into that trap that being nice and using non-lethal force will win out at the end of the day…every day.

    3. We teach Police that it’s ok to miss, REALLY ? !!! I am a retired police officer and I can tell you that from the police academy to the day I retired I was told that I WAS ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY BULLET I FIRED PERIOD. !!!! and NOT to fire unless in DIRECT defense of myself or someone else. I WAS NEVER EVER, EVER TAUGHT THAT IT WAS OK TO MISS !!!!

  142. Training, training and more training. Not just with firearms but physical fitness and use of less-lethal force. Get them out of the offices doing paper work and train them to be effective LEOs. Stop blaming the equipment and start training, intense training, cut the non-hackers who cannot meet standards. That’s just the way it should be but will never be because of various reasons, cost and the inability to find enough people. The NYC PD had something like 30,000 officers, could you imagine if they tried to up their standards? Not happening.

  143. maybe u.s. police departments should not use glocks simply because they are not u.s. made. i believe there are many instances where u.s.manufacture is a requirement. as for the glock? i’m sure its as good as any other gun, albiet expensive.

  144. Bearing Arms, Bob Owens needs some training basic gun (pistol) safety.It is pretty evident Bob is an idiot.
    Bearing Ams should find a new editor—quickly….Bob needs to go join Obamas idiots on gun safety….

    1. This guy Owens is a moron everyone is taught in the academy to keep their finger on the trigger guard. You are taught to not touch the trigger until you are ready to destroy something. That’s why I am comfortable with my 23c with a 3.5 lb trigger connector on it. It’s all about being repetitive so everything is second nature. How many other guns can get dropped in water or mud get run over by a car and still fire? That’s why I trust my life with a Glock. Good luck having any credibility now Owens.

  145. Thank God for a no-safety, short pull trigger in the hands of a 60-year-old Garland, Texas police officer last week, as in 15 seconds, he took out two terrorists intent on committing mass murder at the Mohammed Cartoon Exhibition. The first one that went down on a fatal shot was from the side in between the protective plates of his bullet proof vest. The second one was disabled, but began reaching for a satchel which could have contained explosives and he was set to meet his maker. Personally, I prefer S&W M&P pistols. Replaced the 12 pound factory pull with a 2 pound pull and my first shot accuracy is up. The only thing I have against Glocks is that the magazines springs are so tight that they are tough to reload.

    1. Dang, are you functionally illiterate? If you think I just insulted your mother the answer is yes.

      You were asked to provide data to back up your claim that the record shows Glocks to be prone to ADs than other handguns (not your hysterical opinion)

      Instead you offered proof that ADs are caused by user error.

      From the link you provided:

      “I need to pay more attention,” Counceller told the Palladium-Item. “I know what the dangers are. It was pure carelessness on my part.”

      “It got tangled in my clothing,” Counceller said of the incident. “I was wearing a sweatshirt and a fleece jacket. I felt (the gun) go in the holster and I pushed it, but it was tangled in the material, which caused it to discharge. The bullet went into my leg and then into the floor.”

      Now if you wish to cite the comment by the mayor as rock solid proof of your allegations, please provide proof that his statements were based on some sort of expertise and that they are not just something akin to the warm breeze from beneath a ducks tail feathers.

      As I said before, there is no reasoning with your kind. There is a slight hope that if enough people point out the lack of logical thinking in your petulant rants you will go away and have your tantrum in private rather than on this board.

  146. Any weapon handled by a competent user is safe. Any weapon in the hands of a liberal, politician, or those poitically inclined is unsafe as they are driven to be in power – to control.

  147. Dead Armadillo:
    That long trigger pull might be “safer” in that a shooter can change his mind and back off the pressure at the last moment, but it can also be that the long trigger pull is conducive to a badly placed shot that misses the intended target and goes downrange and kills an innocent. There is a reason that competition pistols have a short, crisp, light trigger. The reason is that long, suspenseful and heavy triggers do not give very good accuracy.

  148. The author misses the essential point of firearms training. It appears that he would like a ‘foolproof’ firearm. Sorry, nothing is ‘foolproof’. An improperly trained person with any type of firearm or bow or edged weapon is always a problem.

    1. My issue is why is this supposed gun blogger making statements that are clearly anti gun in general. Is he being co-opped by the Feds???

  149. It is all to easy to pull some minute statistics from the news while ignoring the overall picture to obscure and promote a gun-biased
    idea. ALL guns are dangerous. No doubt. If you aren’t trained, you
    should not have a loaded one anywhere near you. Even if you are
    trained you must be ever diligent in safety procedures Having a
    battle ready weapon in your hand swiftly is what saves lives countless
    more times than to take innocent lives in accidents.

    1. Yo Bob…The question is not whether Guns are dangerous.. All Guns can be dangerous….But Cars and Hammers and Kitchen Knives can be dangerous to…..The question is …Is the design of the Glock Firearm an inherently *UNSAFE* design….The answer to that question is an obvious and resounding yes…

      Stop muddying up the waters with non relevant Red Herring BS…. This is what people like you always do when faced with facts that are too difficult for you to accept…

    2. Where is the validated proof of your assertion? The fact remains that an inadequately trained or negligent operator can have an accidental discharge, especially under stress, with any weapons platform. If the LEO has his or her finger on the trigger, then that LEO should be aimed at a legal target and knowing what is beyond. That was not the case in these incidents. An external safety can be dangerous in the hands of poorly practiced LEO as his or her first shot will not go off, because they forgot to disengage the safety under stress. Having a long heavy trigger pull is not conducive to fast, accurate shots that win the gunfight. Neither is that a fool proof safeguard against negligent discharges as pointed out in the article. The problem is not the hardware–it is in the software. The problem is one of not adequately practicing the rules of gun safety and proper tactical firearms handling with their firearms. We should all be united in identifying and then addressing this problem. To blame it on the guns is a distraction that will not help anyone.

  150. There are so many instances of accidental discharge of a firearm lacking an external manual safety causing death that it would be nearly impossible to list them here. One recent such fatality is good case in point: a mother with a concealed carry permit had a Glock in her handbag. Her toddler dug around in the purse and grabbed the trigger, killing his mom. An easily preventable accident if the handgun had an external, manual safety. So as not to belabor the point here is one more:
    Recently a video went viral of a Police Chief shooting himself with his own Glock in a firearms store(and it was the second time he did it) (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/indiana-police-chief-accidentally-shoots-time-15-years-article-1.1586041).
    There are many instances of people shooting themselves with Glocks, while they are in the holsters.
    There is no good reason to manufacture a handgun without a manual safety. Glock should be held accountable for every accidental discharge of one of its handguns. Unfortunately, many other manufacturers have followed Glock’s lead in producing handguns without manual safeties.
    So, I have to agree with Owens.

    1. Yes you are correct Robert. All of these personal attacks on the Author , who I personally think is a terrible writer do not dismiss his attempted point. So instead of everyone telling u s how perfect and safe they are how about some discussion of solutions

    2. Not speaking as a Glock fan, because I’m not, but the article is way off base and totally untrue in reference to the Golck. It might better be an indictment of proper training, gun safety measures by the police and General firearms education.
      My indictment of the Glock is more simple and is just a personal opinion. It is ugly it started a trend of ugly semi-autos. I speak as an ex-police professional that was one of the first officers to convince police administrations to accept semi-autos for police service.

    3. Those are episodes of negligence and improper training/ practice by the owners of the firearms. Your assertion of liability on the maker of the handgun is one of the attitudes that is ruining this country. A Glock kept loaded in a proper holster by a trained and practiced individual makes everyone much safer.

  151. I am a prosecutor. We often see police/state employees leave their departments, where they testified for us in court, to join the vastly more lucrative field of plaintiff’s personal injury or criminal defense as expert witnesses. The fact that he went to the L.A. Times makes me wonder if he is contemplating a career change and is trying to pad his resume. Note: (W)itness (H)aving (O)ther (R)easonable (E)xplanation = WHORE.

  152. Owen’s blog article is just another “guns are too dangerous for anyone to own” thinking. Many of us use the Glock in one iteration or another, everyday. Only fools will take seriously what this bozo suggests…

  153. it doesn’t matter what the trigger pull is with regard to safety; long pull, short pull, single action, double action, each has its own requirements for safe handling and violating those requirements will result in the same outcome. Find a sidearm that an officer can shoot accurately and then drill them in the safe handling of it. To paraphrase Inspector Callahan, “I don’t care that people are shot as long as it’s the right people getting shot.”

  154. I know I’m probably going to cause some backlash, but I think in this case I agree with Mr. Bob Owens. I’m an avid shooter and I have shot many different types of firearms extensively. I’ve shot glocks many times, and love them. I love the lightweight design, and the trigger pull is fantastic.

    I’m an avid shooter and I have shot many different types of firearms extensively. I’ve shot glocks many times, and love them. I love the lightweight design, and the trigger pull is fantastic.

    The claim that the lighter/shorter trigger pull increases accuracy is absolutely correct.

    What many people don’t realize is that it’s not just the lack of an external safety, but also the fact that the striker is internal and not visible that causes the glock to be inherently less safe than other designs. The fact of the matter is that blocks cannot be drawn from a holster without at least some risk of accidental discharge, either through improper finger placement, or contact with gear or surroundings. There is no way to make drawing the Glock a two-step process (the 1911 design allows the pistol to be drawn and the safety disengaged after the target is acquired)

    While certainly anyone can cause a negligent unintentional discharge by mishandling any type of firearm, these cases are more prevalent with a glocks then with other types of pistols. The 1911 design has an external safety as the author mentions, and you can visually detect whether the firearm is safe or not (the hammer position is another indicator.).

    I personally carry a sig sauer P226 and even though it does not have an external safety, it is both double action and single action, and the position of the hammer is a visual indicator of the safety-state of the weapon.

  155. If you’re properly trained with a 1911 (Military) their is nothing wrong with carrying cocked and locked, that is the way we always carried. Easier to flip off the safety than rack a round during CQB engagements.

  156. I don’t own a Glock just preference but they are a great pistol. As it says in the article the issue is what is between the ears as errors were made. More pontificating from a supposed expert that is simply nonsense.

  157. The Glock family of pistols are just one of many tools in the arsenal of weapons available to LE and civilians. I am no expert but have used / enjoyed almost every one made sense 1900. when using any tool the user must perform the task that the tool was designed for or face the possibility of injury or damage to whatever the tool is being used on., Jeff Cooper was right in saying No gun can ever be 100% safe . When Firearms are used to protect or take a life that firearm cannot tell which situation it is being used for , just like a Mini van cannot tell if it is being driven by a soccer mom or drunk driver. Therefor We created safety features to lessen the chance of misuse. The Glock semi auto or the Wheel guns used in the past by Most LE have the purpose of being ready at all times to be used in those functions with the operator being trained in its use. i no longer own a Glock , after trying several and have the trigger guard rub on my fat knuckle I traded them for something that did not. The only thing that annoyed me about the Glock was the tiny take down levers , again my fat fingers. Seems to me LE changes Firearms like they change their sock’s everything new is Not always better and the best gun to use is the one you have and know like the back of your hand. God bless .. stay safe…

  158. I have to somewhat agree with Mr. Owens. While police and other professionals should train constantly and Glocks or 1911’s can be safe for them, idiots who walk around with 1911’s cocked and locked are looking to at best blow their leg off. Same for the Glock. Under a stressful situation they fire too easily. A longer pull gives a little more margin for error.

    1. Practice, Practice, Practice, the 1911 has been around forever and is very safe to carried cocked and locked, don’t forget it has a grip safety along with the regular safety and is probably one of the safest handguns out there in the hands of a properly trained individual. Springfield armory incorporated the grip safety into all their XD models because it works. Remember the term “Muscle Memory”

  159. As a retired LEO armorer, instructor, ERT member, training is an essential part of using a Glock. Too few rounds down range contributes to unintentional discharges.

  160. gun writers have deadlines….they must write something to remain employed. Cant believe you all would waste time responding to a “glocks suck” article.

  161. I am a 1911 guy, trained with them in the military and learned to love them and the knockdown power they have. Unfortunately it is not easy to conceal a 1911 for carry. That is why I carry a G30, the power of the 45 ACP with more rounds available, and ultimate reliability. Plus you can get all kind of accessories to trick your Glock out.The 1911 and the G30 are 2 very different pistols but I am comfortable with both. It’s all about Weapon safety and trigger control not safeties or triggers. Any firearm is unsafe in the hands of someone with mediocre training. I still spend at least one day a week at the range, practice makes perfect as they say.

  162. I see Bob Owns has turned to the dark side. Perhaps he spent an evening with Rebecca Peters?

    “Glocks have a short trigger pull”? You lost all credibility with that statement.

    Further Bob relies heavily on the public’s assumption that cops are ‘highly’ trained in the shooting arts, a fatal flaw based on myth and financial reality, but used here to insinuate that if cops have trouble then civilians can never be trusted.

    Clearly this hit piece is bought and paid for by Bloomberg/Soros designed exclusively for consumption by compliant and ignorant sheep. Sheep that are the target audience of the progressive rag known as the LA Slimes.

  163. While i do not support all of the conclusions in the glock article, i do have issue with striker fired handguns that do not have external safties. Real world situations are showing the weaknesses of this design. Are glocks effective, functional firearms? Yes. Are they, and other striker fired handguns as safe as tradition semi automatic handguns? No, they are not.

  164. I’m curious why a person who has actually fired a pistol and allegedly know something about firearms would make such stupid statements? That’s like blaming the silverware for you being fat. There must be more to this. Nobody would spout such ridiculous bullsh!t and expect anyone to believe it.

  165. Wore the Beretta every day in Afghanistan. Saw every soldier issued one have that safety off and on at random, from little specialist me to the Maj Gen. Little switch doesn’t mean a thing. The only “safety” was the holster.

    Good guns don’t go off unless you’re touching it.

  166. I served in the Army. I carried an old 1911 when on duty. Competitively shot large bore and small bore rifle. I fire my old para-ord 45 ACP regularly, and reload as a matter of both economics and joy. Because of my background I prefer an external safety for my carry pistol. I also prefer some physical indication that the pistol is in battery. Thus I don’t much care for Glocks. However, I do agree with this author that the primary safety on any weapon lies between the ears. That safety must never be disengaged.

  167. Obviously the writer of the article (Owens) has alterier motives behind it. The writing of that article shows a few key things about the writer: 1 he is very uneducated when it comes to proper gun safety, 2 is ignorant to the fact glock safety features are an industry leading design and make the pistols extremely safe, 3 He does not care about the people who use these pistols (Law enforcement). This article is an attack on the striker fired pistol.

    Firearm safety is the most important part of having a firearm.

    The hardware (guns) don’t kill people, it is the ignorant, uneducated, or crazy/unstable/terroristic PEOPLE who kill people!

    That is like the overweight person who eats fastfood 3-4 times a day getting mad that they are getting heavier. Then wanting to sue the fastfood restaurant for them being overweight! STOP EATING FASTFOOD IDIOT! Eat healthier!

  168. You know something Rick, you’re right; the range is not real life but you fight as y9ou train! 1986, Miami, FL…the infamous Miami Massacre…those FBI agents were policing their casings and empty mags DURING the firefight. Why? That’s what they did on the range. Jeff Cooper warned over and over again that trying to make a weapon “safe” is a an exercise in futility. Glocks are NO LESS SAFE than any other pistol! Glocks ARE less forgiving of stupidity!!! In the early 1970’s, the NYPD had all of their revolvers converted to DAO. Why? Because of cops waving around cocked pistols. I don’t care what a cop is carrying, be it a Sig, Beretta, 1911, Springfield. Smith or whatever; they must learn to operate that pistol properly. To blame the most popular police and self-defense pistol in the country on being unsafe is massively retarded and is something that I would expect from the anti-gun crowd. Btw, I have BEEN in “real world” situations!

    1. “In the early 1970’s, the NYPD had all of their revolvers converted to DAO” that statement is patently false. The NYPD didn’t add the DAO revolvers until the mid 1980’s and shortly after that they switched over to DAO Semiautomatics. The got away from the standard model 10 S&Ws and Rugers not because of cops waving around cocked pistol but because of accidental discharges by a few officers when they cocked the pistol at the scene of an event and didn’t realize the great difference in trigger pull between a cocked and uncocked revolver. The problem was lack of training and an anti-gun mindset by the NYC politicians and leadership. If a NYPD police officer knew a lot about weapons they often mocked them as gun nuts. Of course that changed in the field when they were the only ones who were able to make safe criminals weapons with out having to call for Emergency Services, NYPDs Rescue and “SWAT” unit. Please get the story straight.

    2. By the way, they didn’t covert the model 10s to DAO, they made the new recruits buy the DAO revolvers, all who already had the standard model 10s kept them and used them until they got to switch over to the DAO semiautomatics. The NYPD, up until they got a grant to by the semiautomatics, made the cops buy their own guns, they did not issue anything, the cops in the NYPD had to by all of their own uniforms and equipment. The Cops had three choices when they were given the semi automatics, the Glock 17, a double action only SIG or the Smith and Wesson stainless steel 5946. The Glock was taken by most because of it’s smaller size, followed by the Smith & Wesson and then the SIG. They had to $100 for the SIG so only a small amount of people took it. They had rust problems with the SIG so they got rid of it and replaced it with a Ruger. The Glocks had problems with the rails snapping in side ways impacts, thus the new Glocks have the metal inserts and they had almost no trouble with the Smiths. The Smiths had the fewest moving parts, thus KISS Keep it simple Stupid works again. They are now allow the cops to by the SIGs again because of the rust proof coating.

  169. Safety rule: do not place finger on truigger until you are sure of your target and beyond. Fobus makes a nice holster fir ghe glock that blocks any foreign object (finger) from coming in contact with the trigger until weapon is drawn for presentation

  170. Unsafe Glocks? No, but complacency, mental laziness or stupidity are enough to overcome the safety features of a firearm or of a secure procedure not followed. I carried the M1911A1 .45 in war and peace, but found it has a serious shortcoming, as wonderful it is. Unlike many modern pistols: it lacks a decocking lever. If you have ever had to lower the hammer on a chambered round on this outstanding pistol, you know what I mean. I have two 1911’s, yet I think this is really a bad flaw that takes great care and attention. Glocks? Among a dozen pistols I own, no Glocks, so I have no opinion based on use.

  171. Operator Error… Pure and simple.
    It happens with automobiles, boom, a crash; “Accident?” No, a CRASH… OPERATOR ERROR, pure and simple.. Power tools? Airplanes? Kitchen appliances? knives? etc. “Accidents”? No Operator error, not following proscribed safety instructions. firearms “Accidents”?… NO! Operator error… Not learning and following prescribed operating and safety instructions..

  172. THE ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN BY AN IDIOT. EVERY SITUTATION REFLECTED IN THE WORDS NOT WORTH READING, FAILED TO PLACE THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONGS…THE OFFICER. AS A FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR AND LEO I CAN TELL YOU NO MATTER WHAT TOOL PEOPLE HAVE, SOMEONE WILL FIND A WAY TO ABUSE, MISUSE OR PLACE BLAME ON OTHERS. BTW. I HAVE CARRIED A GLOCK SINCE 1985 AND…..STILL DO.

  173. The proper way to draw your pistol is with your trigger finger out side of the trigger guard and when the sight is on the target to put your finger on the trigger. Many people have died because they either forgot to take the safety off when in a self defense situation or because of the extra time it to do that or because they forgot to take the safety off. The most important safety is your mind and practice.

  174. My JROTC instructor beat into us that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge and that every accident is the cause of negligence and this is considering we were using air rifles. People need to stop fearing fire arms they are a tool just like a screwdriver or a hammer and I’m pretty sure no one has any laws or papers condoning those.
    Cheers

  175. “DO NOT put your damned finger on the trigger until you are READY TO SHOOT!!!! I have thrown people off of the range for doing that!!! ”

    PSSSST….real life isn’t “the range.” That’s the whole point of the article; combat situations.
    SMH.

  176. “Bob’s a shill for a company called Detonics. He’s been hyping their gun for years for the army’s handgun trails. Since it looks like the army’s not going forward with the program & Detonics is a company already on thin financial ice. It needs to find a market for its “hammer fired external safety” pistol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Owens wasn’t personally invested in Detonics.”

    I have no idea whether that statement is true or not, but if so how is that any t different than Dave Dolbee shilling for Glock? Is that like today’s politics: “It’s okay if my guy does “it” but not if yours does “it?”

  177. I grew up shooting/collecting 1911’s. With that said, Glocks do require the user to be acutely aware of ones trigger finger location. Other things that may get into the trigger housing also, (loose clothing, drawstrings, etc.) during re-holstering. 1911’s and other similar pistols that have additional safeties could possibly cause the user to depend on the others, and not keep the emphases on the trigger / trigger finger. You must keep your brain engaged all the time. Just my humble opinion.

  178. I own three glocks, have two daughters that shoot ages 12-14, and I would say a glock promotes dissaplin and respect for a gun let alone training on how these guns function without safeties. Needless to say with all firearms your finger Is your safety!

  179. “David commented on LA Times Headline: “Why the Police Shouldn’t use Glocks” — Are You Nuts?.
    in response to KB:
    I wouldn’t own a Glock on a bet….A Glock is nothing more than Law Enforcement’s version of a Saturday Night Special or a Zip Gun. Point of fact a handmade zip gun is probably safer… No Safety, no De-cocking mechanism, No ability to de-cock the weapon short of pulling the trigger. That is the very […]
    I’ve carried a Glock for 20+ years and never had the slightest issue. Worked at a very large LEO firing range for several years where countless hundreds of officers fired well over 2 million rounds through Glocks… no problems there either. Glocks are for professionals… appears maybe you aren’t mature enough for a man’s gun.”

    Very mature closing David.

    1. I remember the 1986 when Glocks first hit the US. The gun control crowd was unanimous in their efforts to get the gun banned. It seems that some gun owners should be listed in that crowd. Glock can stand on its own record. The irrational rantings of gun know-nothings will not change the fact the Glock has PROVEN itself to be one of the best self-defense firearms made. This reminds me of a know-it-all friend that my dad had….this man believed that 9mm equaled Luger pistol and NOTHING would convince him otherwise. Now, professionals carry other pistols also BUT, professionals DO NOT make ignorant remarks like Owens did…or like KB did.

    2. Sometimes the truth can hurt your wittle feelings.. and in this case I’ve seen countless hundreds of men [and women for that matter] handle a Glock safely over their 20+ year careers… so it ‘appears you aren’t mature enough for a man’s gun” is a true statement.. even if it does offend you.

  180. “Trent commented on LA Times Headline: “Why the Police Shouldn’t use Glocks” — Are You Nuts?.
    in response to Cheaper Than Dirt:
    It is a shame when someone who pretends to support the Second Amendment goes to the other side. Our senior writer, Dave Dolbee rebuts a recent article in the LA Times titled “Why the police shouldn’t use Glocks.” We think they are nuts!
    Bob’s a shill for a company called Detonics. He’s been hyping their gun for years for the army’s handgun trails. Since it looks like the army’s not going forward with the program & Detonics is a company already on thin financial ice. It needs to find a market for its “hammer fired external safety” pistol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Owens wasn’t personally invested in Detonics.”

    You are delusional!

  181. back when we carried revolvers we had AD’s just as described in the article. But we didn’t blame the gun.

    Off. Chris Pollack

  182. Bob Owens is a clueless when it comes to Glocks. If he had any experience at all with Glocks, he would know about the NY1 & NY2 trigger springs for use by New York police. Heck, if NY police officers are still squeezing off rounds with a NY2 7-11 pound trigger spring installed in their Glocks… then they wouldn’t be safe carrying a revolver… much less another brand of semi-auto handgun.

    GLOCK TRIGGER SPRING

    The optional GLOCK „New York“ trigger springs produce revolver-like trigger action, facilitating the acclimation from traditional revolvers to semi-automatics.

    STANDARD All GLOCK pistols are delivered with a standard trigger spring from the factory. It guarantees constant trigger pull resistance over the entire trigger travel.

    N.Y.1 The GLOCK „New York“ trigger has its name from the New York Police Department. It facilitates officers changing from revolvers to pistols. Increases trigger pull weight from 2,5 kg / 5.5 lb. to 4,9 kg / 11 lb.

    N.Y.2 The N.Y.2 trigger spring is even harder than the N.Y.1 trigger spring. The user will obtain a continuous very hard revolver-like increase of the trigger pull weight from 3,2 kg / 7 lb. to 5 kg / 11 lb.

    http://eu.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm

  183. I have seen other articles the author has written and I have to say he does not always make his point as clear, and sometimes does not always research as much as I would do. That said I understand what he may be trying to point out and that is the Glock in this instance is a pistol that has an inherent safety issues for everyday use. I know that those who have Glocks are passionate about them and I see most comments about gun safety etc. while these are excellent points the underlying constant factor is the weapon in all of the instances. I know that when someone who carries occasionally or is going to the range they note how they are gun safety conscious and their Glock is safe. However it is when it is carried everyday that the complacency sets in and safety problems come out, now before anyone gets on their box about safety etc, ask your self how many times do use your turn signal when driving , or look as carefully as you should when changing lanes? You forget, or are preoccupied , day dreaming etc. a lot of cars now address this problem with various alarms etc. so now back to the article and its point of Glocks maybe not being the safest choice for a multitasking carry situation like policing and letting inexperienced new hires carry same. So now is there a solution, or just a problem with out one? If one looks at most polymer striker fired pistols such as the h&k vp9, canik tp9sa , the walther ppq , etc they have the same inherent problem as the Glock, short take up and always cocked , so to speak. So is the answer a p99 type pistol with a DAO Long first pull and short lighter SA PULL as well as a decocker? Well there still is a a problem with no real mechanical safety except the person behind the gun. If we follow the authors logic then there are 2 ways to help insure public and law enforcement safety and one would be to have all officers carry in condition 3/ Israeli carry where the round is not chambered until the gun is drawn thus cutting down on ADs ; or have pistols like the walther p1/p38, sw59’s etc. where around is chambered but with the safety on the DAO trigger cannot be accidentally pulled( assuming that the pistol is working and maintained properly). As for adding a safety to the Glock well that just is not a possibility.
    Still all in all a good thought provoking article.

  184. Bob’s a shill for a company called Detonics. He’s been hyping their gun for years for the army’s handgun trails. Since it looks like the army’s not going forward with the program & Detonics is a company already on thin financial ice. It needs to find a market for its “hammer fired external safety” pistol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Owens wasn’t personally invested in Detonics.

  185. I’m a 1911/BHP guy. I also own glocks. Have two used to have another. Honestly, Glock always make me nervous. I know you always treat a firearm as if it were loaded but a cocked and locked gun re-enforces that reality. A Glock always has a mystery in that until you check the chamber you just don’t know. I’m sure a big part of it is simple familiarity of the firearm. I currently own 12 1911’s and 2 BHP’s. Plus I’ve owed 4 others and 2airsoft 1911 training guns. Basically the same grip angle, the same sights, both single action and the same safeties. I fire somewhere between 3000-13,000 ( man I miss cheap ammo) a year with those guns for well over a decade. With glocks probably 2000 rds…. Period. Over 18 hrs of shooting handguns maybe $2000 rds. So Glocks make me nervous. What makes me more nervous though is knowing the average cop fires the gun less than 100 rds a year. That gives me about there same experience as the average cop with 20 hrs experience. That’s crazy. Especially with a Glock. With law enforcement I can see advantages to this gun but also some real trigger discipline issues that would have to be addressed that could be avoided with a different gun

  186. I have carried a Glock and a 1911 for many years, people forget the first rule in gun safety .. Don’t keep your finger on the trigger unless you intend to distroy what your pointing at. This man is clearly on a agenda.

    1. John, you said it! DO NOT put your damned finger on the trigger until you are READY TO SHOOT!!!! I have thrown people off of the range for doing that!!! Some of the rantings that I have read make absolutely NO sense. There are several brands of pistol that I do not care for. One of the most well thought of, the Sig P226, does not fit my hand at all! But, that doesn’t make it a bad pistol. I think Owens needs to carry a Colt Police Positive or a Smith Model 10 with one round of ammo.

  187. The only really safety is between the ears. And that only works when its owner respects the gun enough to handle it as it should be handled. Unfortunately try as you might, you cannot legislate morality or behavior completely. When you punish everyone in order to punish the few it never turns out well.

  188. Total garbage . Nothing wrong with the Glock but …something wrong with basic firearms training of these people –or –just stupid human error . Its going to happen with any design , unfortunately .
    Hard to believe this would even be written about .

  189. As a California resident, law enforcement (federal, state, or local) should not be able to use any firearm that is not legally available to CA residents. That includes any Glock Gen. 4s, or Glocks made in the U.S.A., we can’t legally own them.

  190. I’m not a Glock fan, I own one but I happen to like the Sig DA/SA better along with what I consider to be tighter tolerances, better fit to my hands and the accuracy beats my Glock in my hands. I’d disagree that the Glock is somehow unsafe though, you have to pull the trigger to make it go bang just like any other modern handgun. In situations police find themselves in, chasing people, incoming fire, hand to hand fighting… accidental discharge will happen no matter what handgun you have. Keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot and have acquired the target… easy to say until you are in a dark alley and you know there’s someone with a gun trying to kill you. The Glock cleaning accidents, the take down on the Glock requires you to pull the trigger… that has always bugged me, but I have so far been able to check the chamber successfully every time with mine..

  191. I have military and law enforcement experience, my comments are simple.
    1. You can’t fix stupid, but you can intensify training. In the military the training is so intense that it became as a reflex. The lack of training may be the culprit. In my opinion it is. Instructors are being pushed to get these cadets on the streets. The Mayors and city councils want to get these kids out there as quick and as cheaply as possible. They require extensive training for the responsibility they are given. We received more and better training in the military. Some one needs to spend the money and get it done. NOW, as to the Glock it goes right back to my statement TRAINING.

  192. i have owned numerous glocks. a 36, 42, 17l, and now i will be buying a 43, 9mm. .i have owned guns all my life. im 70 years old. if you want to bitch about a real problem, why dont you start in the home. take your youth down to a shooting range and make sure that they know how to protect themselves by knowing gun safety rules. not letting them sit on their buts all day playing video games. and get the japanese influence off of tv and the movies. doesnt anybody remember who it was that did a secret strike on pearl harbor??? now they own the majority of the movie houses..now, mr owens, stick that in your ” PIPE ” and smoke it.

  193. I own and carry the 1911 5″ model I like it the accuracy is good and the thin frame make it comfortable for ccw. I’ve owned a couple Glocks in years past a good gun I prefer the external safety option.

  194. I served my county as a Deputy Sheriff for almost 25 years and for nearly 20 of those years I carried a Glock 17 as my duty firearm and a Glock 26 for back-up and off duty carry. Recently, I parted with my first Duty firearm, a S&W 686 357 revolver carried my first 5 years of duty.I have 3 Glocks and like each of them equally. I find the Glock to be exceptionally reliable and easy to maintain and as safe as any other pistol as long as you follow your training.

    1. John R.

      Did you bump your head? How in the world could you part with that 686??
      Im just kidding with you, Im looking for that perfect 686 (6″) right now- Ive never owned one but I think its a beautiful firearm and will have one soon- not for my every day carry mind you- I have the G26 for that!

  195. I think a lot of people are missing the point. It’s not that glocks are unsafe. It’s that they are unsafe in untrained hands. If an officer is not given the proper training then perhaps a safety, or longer trigger is warranted.

    It’s all opinion people. Attacking and insulting each other over whether a gun should have an external safety is kind of silly.

  196. Bob Owens needs to be drug tested. Frightening to hear he’s the Editor of Bearing Arms….thought in truth, I’ve not read Bearing Arms. Sounds like he’s got some type of agenda. Any credibility he may have received due to his position, was soon discounted by his tactically ignorant…unwarranted rant.

  197. This is the same old liberal argument about “Guns killing people”. Guns aren’t responsible for killing people any more than cars are, or swimming pools are, or trampolines are, or ladders are. But guns fit the liberal agenda (the desire to ban all civilian gun ownership), and these other inanimate things do not.

  198. Tom, I started with the 1911A1 when I was 12….that was 41 years ago and it is still my favorite pistol. But I carry a G22.

  199. To all my American Brothers out there-please get proficient.According to the incompetent Feds we plenty of violent Jihadis out there who mean to do us harm.The government has already told us we must be vigilant.because our “leaders” are gutless.Safety or no safety agun is useless unless you can hit exactly what you aim at Get so that you can shoot the balls off a jackrabbit at 50 yards.6

  200. I own several firearms by different manufacturers and my preferred concealed carry is a Glock. Which one depends on how I feel that day. I used to carry my Kimber Ultra Carry II which I really like, but the Glock holds more rounds and after a 4 day handgun training course at Front Sight in Nevada, I decided that I like the Glock better for concealed carry. As a former Marine with multiple Expert qualifications with a 1911A1 I do have a fondness for that firearm but still prefer the Glock for self defense.

  201. I wouldn’t own a Glock on a bet….A Glock is nothing more than Law Enforcement’s version of a Saturday Night Special or a Zip Gun. Point of fact a handmade zip gun is probably safer… No Safety, no De-cocking mechanism, No ability to de-cock the weapon short of pulling the trigger. That is the very definition of an unsafe firearm….In anybody’s hands. Placing that same Firearm in the middle of stress filled life and death survival scenario’s where prudence, safety, caution good decision making generally go out the window is a recipe for disaster. The facts are clear, Glock Firearms are involved in more accidental shootings and discharges than any other weapon on the Planet…The fact that some people carry them without incident does not negate the inherent flaws in this weapon. You can bet badges to donuts that the only reason Law Enforcement buys these weapons as standard issue in the first place in a financial one (Glock provides Law Enforcement with SUBSTANCIAL discounts) and has nothing to do with efficiency or safety or reliability….Those are the facts… Period.

    1. KB would you be so kind as to source your facts?

      Please don’t embaris yourself by telling me to do it for you. You made the claim please back it up with reliable, real world data.

    2. Stewey… Maybe instead of attempting to invent an argument to justify the stupidity of carrying one of these glorified Lorcin’s, you should concentrate on not *EMBARRASSING* yourself with lousy spelling?

    3. So you have nothing to back up your claims then?

      As I thought.

      A thousand pardons for my misspelling. If it was the greatest trauma of your day you are a fortunate man.

      I really don’t care what your opinion of Glocks or anything else is. I called you on your claims of “facts” and you did not disappoint me with your childish reaction. It was expected as is the tirade you will post in response to this message.

      Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

      There is no reasoning with your kind. Enjoy your delusions KB

    4. I’ve carried a Glock for 20+ years and never had the slightest issue. Worked at a very large LEO firing range for several years where countless hundreds of officers fired well over 2 million rounds through Glocks… no problems there either. Glocks are for professionals… appears maybe you aren’t mature enough for a man’s gun.

  202. I carried a Glock 22(40cal) for many a year while in law enforcement( still do to this day) I also carry a Glock 30S (45 acp) and a M&P Shield (9mm),not to mention a 1911 that I carry often. I am at the range once a month firing at least 100 rounds out of each mentioned weapon, NEVER!!!! had any safety issues with any of the mention weapons. I feel MR. Owens was out of line in his article .

  203. In most every case the gun is only as good as the shooter.. Not double checking the chamber on clearing is not a mechanical problem.. it is operator error..

  204. I own several firearms by different manufacturers and my preferred concealed carry is a Glock. Which one depends on how I feel that day. I used to carry my Kimber Ultra Carry II which I really like, but the Glock holds more rounds and after a 4 day handgun training course in Nevada, I decided that I like the Glock better for concealed carry. As a former Marine with multiple Expert qualifications with a 1911A1 I do have a fondness for that firearm but still prefer the Glock for self defense.

  205. The only danger is here is Owens. all weapons are safe until an incompetent person gets their hands on it.

  206. “Training is good, but there is not enough ammunition, enough shooting ranges, enough money, enough time to do it right.”

    Or, if you’re an LE agency and you do order training ammo like Customs just did, the wingnuts think the Feds are going to invade Texas via WalMart. Talk about can’t win….

  207. “Just like the design of every firearm, power tool , motor vehicle, claw hammer, etc does.”

    That’s an excellent point. After all a chainsaw or a lawnmower without a chain or blade guard is perfectly safe, right?

  208. I was a cop and military cop, with thirty-three years experience before I retired. I saw negligent discharges with revolvers, AR 15s, and semiautomatic pistols. Every single one of the NDs was the fault of the shooter, violating a gun safety rule, not the gun’s design or mechanics. I saw only one ND with a Glock. An Officer at the range, while preparing to clean his Glock 23, failed to check the chamber, before pulling the trigger, which is required to field strip the pistol, and shot a hole in a cleaning table. Fortunately no one was hurt. I carried a Glock 23 for ten years. Pointed it at suspects, but was never necessary to fire. I had active shooter force on force training with simunition bullets in a Glock. They are plastic dye bullets, similar to paint balls. I shot a lot of “bad guys” in the training. No NDs. The Glock is not flawed mechanically. It is more reliable than a lot of human beings I have known.

  209. Complete rubbish. I carried a Beretta 92F for ten years as a local LEO and have carried a Glock for 17 as a federal LEO. I was not a Glock fan when transitioned from a double action SA pistol but that was all a matter of comfort from habituation. There is nothing innately unsafe about the function of a Glock with a factory trigger pull. As you point out, many of these incidents were the result of serious weapon handling errors and could happen with any pistol. To point to these as evidence of some Glock safety deficiency is absurd. This guy has 1911 syndrome and is looking for a reason to promote it.

  210. I have carried Glocks since the first model 17 was for sale in the US. The term “AD” should stand for armed dumbass. I carried a Glock 26 as a felony drug prosecutor. All I had in training was what I read in Massad Ayoob’s books. I never shot anyone accidentally or otherwise. I kept my finger outside the trigger guard. I kept the pistol pointed in a safe direction and I only loaded it when I was ready to carry it. This indictment of Glock is just another thinly-veiled attack on the Second Amendment. The author is a partisan hack who needs to get his facts straight.

  211. I don’t own a Glock or any other striker fired handgun. I prefer a DA/SA but that is just me. My everyday carry is a FNP-45, been on my left hip for quite some time, I like it. I shoot with it,I clean it, I TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN with it. Safety is number one with it as with any destructive device that I own. Read the Opt-Ed and the article in “The Shooters Log’ again. In these cases it was not a weapon short fall, it was a BRAIN short fall.

  212. fbi is now just a political tool, they are no longer a serious leo. they only do what obama tells them to do, they never investigated fast and furious, louis lerner and the irs, the clintons…… on and on and on.
    Glocks arent a very safe gun ( for most glock users), those internal so called safety’s are useless if and when the trigger safety get’s pushed in hard enough
    it is popular because it is cheap, and glock touts these high sales as if it’s because it’s a good gun, not because they’re cheap, easily fooling the naive civilians into buying them. I’ve always heard they were designed for leo’s who open carry and didn’t want an external safety to mess with while on patrol. but now most every new conceal carry shooter is carrying them in a way they were not designed to be carried, and still not smart enough to keep their finger off the trigger.
    Just adding a simple grip safety would make me feel better. pulling the trigger is not an accidental discharge! but an idiot with a gun)
    I now carry a 1911, Cocked & Locked. .45 in the chamber, hammer pulled back and safety on…… still safer than a glock, and if I pull the trigger, nothing happens, Your glock can’t do that. I open and conceal carry with it too.
    I like to tease glock people, but think overall it’s a personal preference and there is no right and wrong, My needs and likes are different and even though I think mine is safer, it all comes down to the person and their environment, but learn your weapon and train with it. and know it like the back of your hand.
    My safety is moved from off to fire during the draw from my holster, it is ready to fire before I aquire my target. I practiced and practiced until I did it automatically and now it’s just part of the draw.
    I can leave my safety off if I want, but glocks don’t let you have that freedom to choose for yourself.

    1. Sorry Todd but you are wrong about Glock pistols. I have had a Glock from when they first came out and own 5 Glock pistols and never had an accidental discharge, yes I carry my firearm in a holster as should everyone, and I have been using and carrying a firearm for over 50 years.

  213. I’ve never been a Glock fan. Love SIG because that’s what I carried for years, but after reading his moronic column I’m buying a used Glock.

  214. Glocks suck. Not just for the reasons in Mr Owen’s article, they just suck. The look like a toy and have the ergonomics of a square pipe glued on top of a box. Yes they are completely and perfectly reliable. None-the-less, they suck.

  215. Regardless of the design, gun safety is dependent upon the person handling the gun. Do not blame guns for stupidity, it is the users. Although I prefer the 1911, I also carry a Glock and feel quite comfortable with it.
    I maintain that all “negligent discharges” are the result of carelessness and could have been prevented!

  216. I prefer the XD also but the Glock is only a bit less safe than the XD because it does not have a grip safety. To blame the Glock for any of the errors in that article is ridiculous. The gun isn’t foolproof becuase fools are quite ingenious. The author must have had a really bad day or he has just plain “lost it!”

  217. I was professionally involved in the sales and upgrades from revolvers to semi auto pistols during the first and subsequent years of the turnovers, I sold hundreds and hundreds of semi auto pistols that replaced revolvers.

    If you folks think police officers are “well trained” you have another thing coming, many departments have that one or two officers who could not hit a barn if you spotted him a bull fiddle. At times on the range it was comical, we even had officers A D 37 MM gas guns at the S&W training center in Ohio.

    Maybe federal agencies have better quality marksmen who are safe with striker fired semi auto pistols, but I seriously doubt they are exempt from having a fumble finger among them who might send a round down the wrong way with an A D.

    If any of you who are pro glock for law enforcement really think a Glock is safer than a Sig 220 double action pistol you are fooling yourselves.

    Yes, indexing is the proper method but then again so is not driving a car while texting but stupid people still do it.

    Stupid is as stupid does. Myself? I sleep good at night knowing that I never sold that plastic junk to any police officer or department.

  218. Funny I don’t know of any other hand gun that has so many “accidents”? You need a safety on all firearms…if an Officer feels he may be entering a dangerous situation he can easily take the safety off with the flick of his thumb as he takes it out of his holster. The Glock is a POS, not many people have the balls to admit it, it is kind of a cult at this point, LOL!!!
    Oh, and yes I come from a background that can address this issue from an experienced point of view.
    Thank You…

  219. Training, training, training! This reminds me of a local agency that banned rookie officers from driving Crown Victorias when they switched from the Chevy’s. They were having a lot of accidents and stated that the Vics were too powerful for the new officers. They were required to drive the Chevys for the first few years. It had nothing to do with the car and everything to do with training.

  220. I have a Springfield Armory XD MD2 in 9mm and I like the striker fire trigger better than some Glocks I’ve seen. It also has not external safety. I did not purchase a Glock because I did not like how fat the grip is and the new XD Md2 fits me great and still gives he high capacity. I am not LE but know some who use the Glock and some the SIG. I am only concerned they learn their weapon well, it is their choice. If we take the logic and rational behind these comments, then no LE should carry anything more than maybe a tazer.

  221. FYI John Moses Browning did not Put an external safety 0n the original 1911.The Army made him do it.As far as I am concerned a light gun with a heavy NY trigger is a recipe for disaster.How on earth can you aim the gun safely? First learn how to shoot then practice religiously -something most Police Officers in Democrat cities do not do.Win the criminal lose the civil.What do I know I just shoot Bullseye with my 1911s.I also have a slug of insurance.

  222. I’ve never had a accidental discharge and I let my 9 yr old shoot my 23 19 and 42 all the time at the range. It truly is all about what’s between the ears. It sucks that people are so stupid that Mr Owens doesn’t have the common sense of the average 9 yr old who when reading the article laughed and said really dad this guy’s an idiot and my support the Obama resheme.

  223. Personally, I don’t understand why anyone uses a Glock either. It fits the hand like a brick. It’s the most uncomfortable gun I have ever picked up. I just don’t understand the fascination with them.

    1. I have a glock and I have a large hand I could understand that a person with small hands would have a problem with it but then again they would have a problem with most 1911 frames
      a person should purchase a weapon that fits them but don’t denounce a weapon just because it does not fit you

  224. Mr. Owens should work for the state of California. I’m sure Kamala Harris and all the state Democrats would love his assistance in finding reasons to add one more line of firearms to drop from the approved roster list.

    Thank you Mr. Owens for collaborating with enemies of the 2nd Amendment.

  225. I don’t care for Glocks either – because the trigger pull is too heavy and long. Plus they are not all that accurate by design. But this guy is looking for a reason to bash Glocks. User error can’t be engineered out of a weapon, or any other machine. If this guy thinks a Glock has too short of a trigger pull, it makes you wonder if he ever fired one.

  226. There used to be a steep twisting section of road about 20 miles from here called Dole Hill. Someone asked once why there was no guardrail. He was told, “It’s so dangerous it has to be safe”.

    The road was safe because people were aware of the risk of driving without due care on it.

    The design of a Glock require the user to take certain precautions. Just like the design of every firearm, power tool , motor vehicle, claw hammer, etc does.

    Failure to take proper precautions is the fault of the operator, not the tool.

  227. I heard the secret service uses the new Glock that fires a 357 Round. I own six Glocks myself and do part time security work my Glock I carry model 21 and I depend on mine and use a model 30 as a back up. Both being 45’s . Why a back up weapon? Why not?. I do own a number of 1911’s but the magazines carry 7-8 rounds. My 21 has a 13 round mag. And my 30 has a 10 round mag, but the 30 can hold a magazine from my model 21. And Glocks are not cheap. Most Police don’t pay 4 weapon!

  228. Glocks have all the problems that Owens blamed on them. Dave, your arguments to pardon the Glock safe-action is weak. There are two categories of arguments that you are using to exonerate the Glock trigger mechanism. One is the mechanical issue of ‘no manual safety’, and the other is the ‘grey matter’ issue. The grey matter argument can be applied to just about every kind of accident, mishap, and mistake that has ever happened. I don’t disagree, but it is unoriginal and hackneyed. Why don’t you suggest that we all get smarter and more responsible and solve all the problems in the world! Manual safeties attempt to create a foolproof operational mode, which also means stupid-proof. This has never completely worked, but it is a valid approach, and reduces the chance of accident with a firearm or whatever. That’s why they put rails around the top of the cliff for sightseers. It works to a great degree. Personally, I like as much safety that can be reasonably incorporated into firearms. Obviously, self-defense tools need to be ‘handy’ to function for self-defense. The Glock safe action is just about the equal of any firearm with a light trigger that is cocked. It’s a great idea to keep your finger out of the trigger guard. That works with any gun, but it is mostly a gun range practice. I don’t think it is foolproof, and getting a gun in and out of a holster just presents too much potential for accidental discharge with the safe-action. It is obvious why police favor Glocks. They function reliably and essentially are ready to fire without forethought (just reaction). Great for the Quick-Draw-McGraw’s out there. Not so great for the bystanders. For my own use, I like loaded chamber indicators, preferring the design that has a hole to view the rim of the case instead of an indicator that pops up or out to the side. That design (along with a little grey matter) is passive and taking a look is an easy habit to form. It’s like looking at a revolver from the side and being able to see the rims of the cases between the cylinder and the frame. You just can’t beat the ability to look at a gun and immediately tell if it has a loaded chamber or an empty chamber. Magazine disconnects are an abomination. Only a California politician could think of such a thing. It is possible to incorporate an independent manual safety in the design of the ‘safe-action’ type of pistol. At least an absolute safety would be available, and if police officers found themselves in a situation requiring a fast draw, click off the manual safety and it’s a normal Glock, best of both worlds. The Ruger SR series works this way. This design would not affect the use of the pistol as a law enforcement weapon, so why not. My mindset is that the potential for accidents with a firearm greatly exceeds the odds a defensive carry handgun will actually be needed for defense. Most people don’t live their lives on-guard, ready to draw and shoot (including cops) on a moment’s notice. Heck, a lot of cops don’t like to shoot and only shoot the minimum required to stay certified. Training is good, but there is not enough ammunition, enough shooting ranges, enough money, enough time to do it right. And cops, besides performing a necessary service, many are negligent and abusive and just not very good at the hard stuff. They need safeties. I try my best to practice situational awareness in everything that I do, and that becomes more and more important as our society continues to deteriorate, which ups the need for protecting one’s self. But the bottom line is, pistols like the Glock should have a manual safety.

    1. >>> Magazine disconnects are an abomination. Only a California politician could think of such a thing. <<<

      John Browning put magazine safeties on his guns long before "California politicians" had anything to say about it John.

      I mentioned this briefly earlier- the mag safety on my FN Model 1922 was a great comfort to me whenever I had to clear a jam from the chamber, which was often. Knowing the gun could not fire reduced my stress considerably when I sometimes even had to use pliers to get the jammed cartridge out. Being such an old gun, that .32 does not like modern ammo. There doesn't seem to be a single brand of hollow point cartridge that it can fire reliably. In fact after trying about a dozen manufacturers I gave up and put the weapon away.
      I understand the argument against mag safeties. That last round won't fire with the mag out. Seems kind of a minor point to me but perhaps someone here can explain to me (politely please and without name calling) where I'm wrong.

    2. Your case is an argument for magazine safeties. I think that the arguments against it outweigh the arguments for it. I was not aware that John Browning experimented around with magazine safeties, but apparently he did not continue with the concept, which is another reason against it. I have two guns with the device. One is a Ruger SR40. I removed it after experiencing misfires due to the drag of the safety on the striker. Now the gun is reliable. That is a big deal when a so called safety creates an undependable gun. I don’t consider the gun any less safe. I think that a loaded chamber indicator is enough to warn a shooter. In your case a loaded chamber indicator was not needed. Your gun is defective in the first place. Maybe I wrongly slighted California politicians, bad as they are. But a magazine disconnect is an unneeded complexity and not useful in modern firearms in good shape.

  229. If you gave an idiot a hammer he might injure himself, so…. any police “officer” who had his finger on the trigger of ANY pistol could have it go off by accident. Another example here of a moron bashing Glocks when the same accidental discharge would occur if you had your finger on the trigger of
    ANY weapon. F#cking moron. Castrate that writer so he can not further contaminate the human race. Safety first no matter what brand you carry. F#cking moron.

  230. I dislike everything about the glock. The 1911 style weapons are
    time proven I own 6 of them. The very first time I handled a glock
    and became familiar with how it functioned, I told the owner
    “this weapon is not safe”.

  231. In all these instences noted, neglent discharge is the issue. Those of us who can keep there finger off the trigger, have no problem handling G19.
    The best thing I can say about G19 is it goes bang, every time I pull the trigger. Very accurate, very dependable.

  232. Key issue in discussing this article is training:
    “Inappropriately on the trigger of his handgun.”

    It takes longer than the academy to develop muscle memory, and extreme discipline to keep your finger off the trigger. That and giving a 20 something year old, a badge and gun can have serious consequences, but that is for another discussion.

    It doesn’t matter on the firearm; what matters is the training, discipline, and application. Cops shoot themselves pulling their firearm out, because their damn finger was on the trigger. Fix the training, and it won’t matter what firearm they use.

  233. This reminds me of an editorial in the New York Times circa late 1970’s early 1980’s attributing the cause of motorcycles doing wheelies on the street to reckless and deliberate adjustment of the chain too tight.

    Anyone who knows anything about motorcycles knows how silly that is. This situation is different because the fool author of the NYT piece knew nothing about motorcycles while supposedly Owens knows something about handguns.

  234. Tricky…as usual, more sense is obtained by reading carefully…something few of us do ALL the time…and I include the knee-jerk anti-gunners AS WELL AS knee-jerk pro-gunners.

    I’ve only recently purchased my first striker-fired pistol, a Springfield XD9 (to make matters worse, I can no longer buy the thumb-safety equipped XD models due to Kalifornia’s anti-gun legislation…sigh…anyone wanna say “microstamping”…a reality here in KA. )

    I’ve always preferred hammer (I love de-cockers…no comments, please) because a bump on the back of the slide and/or loaded-chamber indicator don’t cut it for these eyes. I do practice tactical in the dark and hammers are pretty hard to miss.

    I still haven’t gotten to where I trust my striker pistol as much as my 1911s, decockers or even revolvers…for safety. If I was in a firefight…which I’ve never been…I might choose differently.

    My next gun is probably my first Glock.

  235. All of this is a matter of personal preference. For me, I could never get my head around the Glock system. I’ve owned a few Glocks and was never comfortable. That’s just me. I know there are a ton of folks that are very happy with a Glock. I carry a Sig P229 .40SW and I’m comfortable with it. I’m sure there are a people who aren’t comfortable with Sig. That’s okay too. As for the above written about negligent discharges, that’s on the operator, not the manufacturer.

  236. The Glock is a fine firearm that is excellent at doing its job . Simple reliable accurate high capacity a good law enforcement weapon . I have chosen the XDm Springfield because the features make it safer for me. The back strap safety can keep the handgun from discharging in a struggle for the weapon. The cocked indicator at the rear of the slide can be felt in pitch black conditions assuring that it is indeed cocked as can the live chamber indicator. That is reassuring when thoughts of unpreparedness go through your mind while waiting silently in the dark for a bad guy. Recently there have been a few discharges of Glocks due to things getting into the trigger while re holstering and that wont happen on my Springfield because of the back strap safety. Either one will do the job its a personal choice.

  237. Rule #1. Never aim a firearm at anything you do not intend to fully destroy.
    Rule #2. Never break the 180 degree field of view and never point your firearm in an unsafe direction.
    Rule #3. YOUR FINGER IS THE SAFETY AND SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL RULE 1 AND 2 HAVE FIRST BEEN EXORCISED.
    Rule #4 ALL guns are to be treated as loaded and must be treated as such at all times.
    Rule #5 YOUR FINGER IS THE SAFETY AND SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL RULE 1 AND 2 HAVE FIRST BEEN EXORCISED. Have I already said that? Just want to make sure you are paying attention.
    By the way, I am a firearms instructor and gunsmith and practice this and teach this every day. 99% of gun ACCIDENTS are due to HUMAN error, not the gun after all, it will do absolutely nothing if you never touch it and it will never fail you if you respect it.

  238. Thank you for the post revealing Bob Owens’ deteriorating mental condition. I have reduced the volume of incoming emails by requesting Bearing Arms remove me from all future emailings, and have reinforced my request by instructing my excellent SPAM filter to remove all of their mail from my inbox automatically.

    1. I just think poor Bob Owens may be under a lot of stress. Last I heard he’s in charge of cleaning all of Hillary’s skirts during her campaign.

    2. Cleaning Hillary’s *skirts* should be easy, she doesn’t have any. Cleaning her pantsuits would require major effort.

  239. Sorry,,, but I will NEVER own a Striker type Pistol and especially a Glock.
    Cops buy Glocks because they are a low cost alternative.
    Most serious LEOs, Military, and Federal Officers rely on Sigs or similar
    all metal DA/SA type handguns.
    This list includes the Secret Service as well as the Navy Seals.

    1. The FBI issues Glocks. What is YOUR definition of a serious law enforcement agency???

    2. I don’t have a fog in this fight. I’ve owned Glocks in the past but traded up to Sig’s when the time came. I do think, however, that the comparison to a revolver and a striker fired pistol is weak. First to last round on a revolver takes a concerted effort to fire. Not so with a striker fired pistol; boom, you are there.
      The Indiana State Police used to carry DAO Beretta’s for that reason. I don’t know if they still do.
      Glocks are perfectly safe if used properly and that means training which in most government entities is generally poor (budget constraints).

  240. I’ve trained on Glock pistols. I grew up with the M1911 and similar pistol configurations. A manual safety is one more level of protection against inadvertent discharge. I wouldn’t use a Glock myself, and certainly don’t feel safe knowing that our police departments are carrying them.

    One disadvantage of the M1911 .that has been rectified in newer model pistols is a de-cocking capability.

    Just my opinion, and everyone has one.

  241. Opinion articles like these is why I do my OWN research on weapons before purchasing one.

    If you bother to check out how the firing mechanism in a Glock actually works you will find that it is in fact one of the more safe guns out there.

    The last thing most police officers need is having to worry about a manual safety under duress. Their reaction time is already slowed down enough. If a department is paranoid about it they should get DA/SAs or DA onlys, both of which have their own quirks.

    Once a gun is unholstered in self-defense or even training, if it has a manual safety, that safety is going to be off anyway. I would submit that on some semiautos this actually makes them LESS safe than a Glock – again you would have to understand the internal mechanics to know what I mean.

  242. We’ve heard the old adage “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” and it is still applicable in Owens story claiming the gun is at fault for accidental shootings. Owens displays incredible ignorance concerning gun safety and the life-or-death importance of following proper procedures. Manufacturer of the weapons is irrelevant in most cases only how the operator handles his weapon.

  243. “Private companies whose employees must be held accountable not only to the law (with no protective unions or fellow government employees to hide behind) and to the marketplace, are the only proper mechanism for keeping everyone in society safe. It is high time we recognize the problems that come with monopolies…especially the government ones.”

    Yeah, that worked SO well for the Pinkertons and other private police forces. Well, actually, it did work out well for them and those who hired them, but for not for anyone else.
    So tell me, how are they “accountable to the law” when there’s no longer public law enforcement to ensure that accountability?

  244. Mr Owens may also feel that we should not use spoons as they cause people to be over weight. No matter how well you know your firearm, always have that respect needed to prevent accidental discharges.
    Not Glock’s fault but the users.

  245. My take on this is that the police are NOT training anywhere as much or properly as they should be. If they were there would not be nearly as many accidents made by them under stress or normal day to day gun handling. Training, Training, Training. That will solve the problems any have with short trigger pulls or striker fired pistols!!

  246. I’ve owned my Glock 19, Gen4, for more than 3 years, and actively carried it on my person for 2 straight years. I’ve seen the gun jam just one time. It is a superior weapon, and the 19 is perfect for concealed carry. I’m not worried about the lack of an external safety. I do NOT carry the gun with a round chambered. That way–no worries. This is not the old west where the fastest draw wins. Ours is a country where thugs and thieves expect us all to be unarmed (most of us are in California). Pulling your own piece is mostly a surprise to the bad guys, giving you the time to rack the slide and make your play.

    Thank you, Glock!

  247. I knew by looking at your headline that the gun hit piece was written by Bob Owens, and no, I didn’t see it in the LA Times either. He’s not the 2nd Amendment supporter he claims to be.

    1. Funny thing, you ignore the 1st amendment, just as important IMHO.

      Just because the guy thinks the glock is a terrible police weapon does not mean he’s not fully backing the 2nd amendment.

  248. The gent’s article is ridiculous and absurdly narrow-minded, to say the least! ANY GUN, and I mean ANY GUN, can be dangerous and unsafe if the operator is an idiot or, more importantly, has not trained sufficiently with the weapon! The brand of weapon or the “operating platform” of the weapon are, for the most part, inconsequential because proper training (and plenty of it) is always first and foremost! The very sad reality here is that most gun owners, including various law enforcement officers, do not train enough and under the correct conditions! That’s why their weapons go “BOOM” when they are not supposed to! Very sad indeed!!

  249. The man writes for the LA Times. Hello: Calif? Liberal?? Maybe anti-gun??
    That or he is trying to get more business for himself

  250. Sounds like Bob Owens and some police officers should be relegated to the Barney Fife method of carrying a weapon, empty weapon with one bullet in the shirt pocket.

  251. The Glock has been a dangerous pistol from get go. The trigger safety is BS. I have seen too may Accidental Discharges from either too much finger or a strap or other object in the holster. Cops are not as trained as the military which the Soldiers and civilian contractor have had way too many ADs. Its only attribute is it is reliable and lighter. I’d take a M1911 any day overal any Glock.

  252. I am a firearms instructor and have had the privilege of teaching people to use semi-auto handguns, including Glocks (of which I admit to being a late adopter). The author is correct, it is the grey matter between the ears that leads to over confidence in firearm usage. (BTW, the owing of a Y Chromosome does not include genetic memory that negates proper instruction, reading of handbooks and CAREFUL practice… women with their two X Chromosomes, are easier to teach in those regards!) Furthermore, it has been my experience, and things I’ve heard/read a bout Glocks, that many females and some men can work the action of a Glock (especially a G17) more easily and thus more safely. It may also be that more female sworn officers are able to qualify better with Glock-type handguns, and thus be safer more efficient protectors of the public. Maybe Mr. Owens is just not being clear enough about his intentions in the editorial he wrote. Seems he could be championing for more and better training, and thus better “muscle memory” when using handguns that improve chances against bad guys. Thanks for allowing me to comment.

  253. I have a Glock 27 and I like it a lot. One advantage the Glock has over my two Sig Sauers is that I can tell at a glance whether the pistol is cocked by looking at the trigger. If it is on short set, it is uncocked (with no round in the chamber); if it is on long set (trigger forward), it is cocked. When it is on long set (cocked) with a round in the chamber, the pistol is ready to fire. While it is possible to have no round in the chamber on long set, I don’t think it is possible to have a round in the chamber on short set (uncocked). Still, wisdom dictates you should always rack the slide to check for a round in the chamber.

    1. Oh, I forgot to add that I always carry my Glock with no round in the chamber. Then, it is only a piece of dead steel, meaning it is completely safe. When I rack the slide, then it becomes living steel, capable of great damage. My lifestyle is a fairly safe one. If I were to work at a corner grocery store or carry diamonds for a living, then I could understand carry with a round in the chamber.

  254. While I usually try not to make sweeping statements about firearms, I avoid short-pull striker-fired pistols because it’s too easy to have a negligent discharge unless you have a very high degree of trigger discipline and have a great deal of training under stress with those types of firearms.

    When doing normal training, the body is relaxed and adrenaline levels are normal. When met with a dangerous situation, the body is suddenly flooded with adrenaline and we lose our fine motor skills amongst other effects. If the officer or person defending themselves doesn’t maintain strong trigger discipline, it’s far too easy to pull the trigger without meaning to do so. A single unintended twitch will ruin someones day completely.

    It’s for that reason that I carry a traditional SA/DA pistol and train with the first shot being DA mode and the remainder SA. The nice thing about a SA/DA pistol with an exposed hammer is that you can cock it if needed for an accurate first shot.

    While there’s nothing inherently dangerous about Glocks, the person wielding it should train with it diligently under a variety of situations in order to avoid negligent or unintentional discharges.

    1. I do agree that pull should be little more on glock. I use HK p2000 at work and HK USP 45 for concealed carry and both are LEM editions. and as long as I don’t pull trigger, I am fine

  255. This is a tangential point, but it needs to be pointed out that American police are also “civilians.” They may think they’re an occupying army, and they certainly pose and act the role, but they are civilians. And to the extent that they enforce laws against victimless crimes, use unnecessarily force, lie in court, or otherwise abuse the rights of their fellow citizens, they are domestic enemies of the Constitution, regardless of what the politicians and the courts might say. Everything Hitler and Stalin did was legal, too. “Legal” doesn’t always mean “right.”

    As for the Glock, it was a superb gun until the later 3rd generation and 4th generation came out. Now they are much more problematic, with many guns suffering ejection issues such as brass-to-face. The company really needs to own up to their mistakes and go back to their old way of making their pistols.

    1. Police are domestic enemies of the constitution ? really ? they are sworn to protect the constitution, and they are human. humans make mistakes.
      police can arrest people and take there freedom away. nobody likes that when it happens to them. what is the alternative ? take away the police entirely ? that would lead to absolute chaos. hey, at least then you would have a chance to use your superior gun skills ! but no wait, you can’t shoot anybody, that would violate their constitutional right of freedom of expression ! what I’m saying is pretty idiotic I agree. SAME AS YOU BUDDY, SAME AS YOU !!! Hitler and Stalin REALLY, REALLY ! WOW I HAVE NO WORDS FOR THAT. OK WORDSWORTH BACK TO YOU !!!

    2. I love how you generalize all cops in same boat. Do me favor, do a real research on your opinion before spewing it.

    3. I know it hurts to be rejected as a police applicant but you don’t have to be so bitter. Or, is it that you are just plain stupid?

  256. I am not a Glock fan. My only real gripe about any Glock, except for the Gen4 models, is that they don’t fit my hand properly. Their triggers don’t bother me and the supposed lack of a manual safety doesn’t bother me either. No striker fired pistol needs a manual safety. Safe gun handling begins and ends with the operator, and no manual safety will supplement stupid.

    I see references made all the time about the 1911 and how these safeties make it safer. No, these safeties do not make it safer. It still takes a person to shoot a 1911. The same can be said for the Glock, or any striker fired pistol. Having a safety, or multiple safeties, on any firearm is not an excuse to abandon safe handling procedures. I’ve seen far too many people pick up a 1911 at a gun shop, and their finger goes directly to the trigger. I’ve also seen and heard accounts from others, about those who had their finger on the trigger of a 1911 when they flicked the safety off. It was not the pistol’s fault, it was the operator’s fault.

    I do not want a manual safety on a pistol. I especially do not want a magazine disconnect on a pistol. If you depend on the safety, you are not depending on safe firearm handling. It is the lack of self-discipline that causes unintended shots being fired. If you carry a small striker fired pistol in your pocket, it had better be in a holster before you shove it in that pocket. If it is a holster on your belt, in your waistband, or a shoulder holster, you better test your pistol in it when it is unloaded, and I do mean verifiably unloaded. If the trigger is snagged and starts to be pulled back when you are holstering the handgun, then do NOT use that holster for that handgun.

    I remember reading about a problem with the slide mounted safety on some older Walther PP and PPK pistols, 25 or 30 years ago. If memory serves me, the problem occurred when the safety was used to lower the hammer when the slide was racked to chamber a round. When you engage the safety after the round is chambered, the hammer falls with a loud snap. The repeated slamming of the hammer when the safety was engaged could fracture a part inside and cause it to fire. It’s been years since I broke one down, so I do not remember which part would break. I always put the safety on before I chambered a round, so the hammer followed the slide into battery, reducing the stress on that part. No, I do not remember what magazine the article was in, but it was about the time when a lot of used, traded in, German police PP’s and PPK’s were imported. If you notice the hammer let down on a Sig, it does not cause the hammer to strike hard. That is a hammer let down, and not a safety.

    You have to train yourself to keep your finger out of the trigger guard, holding it straight and laying alongside of the frame, whether it be a 1911, a Glock or any other handgun, and keep it there until you are aiming at your intended target.

  257. Range Time. Lots of it. Practice. Practice. Practice. Know your weapon like the back of your hand. Trigger discipline. Keep your barrel down range and never ever point it at something or someone you don’t intend to shoot. Oh yeah..keep it secured and out of reach of the little ones. Owning a weapon is the real deal. A big responsibility. Take it seriously or don’t own one.

  258. This Bob Owens is clueless when it comes to Glocks. If he had any experience at all with Glocks, he would know about the NY1 & NY2 trigger springs for use by New York police. Heck, if NY police officers are still squeezing off rounds with a NY2 7-11 pound trigger spring installed in their Glocks… then they wouldn’t be safe carrying a revolver… much less another brand of semi-auto handgun.

    GLOCK TRIGGER SPRING

    The optional GLOCK „New York“ trigger springs produce revolver-like trigger action, facilitating the acclimation from traditional revolvers to semi-automatics.

    STANDARD All GLOCK pistols are delivered with a standard trigger spring from the factory. It guarantees constant trigger pull resistance over the entire trigger travel.

    N.Y.1 The GLOCK „New York“ trigger has its name from the New York Police Department. It facilitates officers changing from revolvers to pistols. Increases trigger pull weight from 2,5 kg / 5.5 lb. to 4,9 kg / 11 lb.

    N.Y.2 The N.Y.2 trigger spring is even harder than the N.Y.1 trigger spring. The user will obtain a continuous very hard revolver-like increase of the trigger pull weight from 3,2 kg / 7 lb. to 5 kg / 11 lb.

    http://eu.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm

  259. guns are primarily used as a deterrent for any person law enforcement or others. why they carry any type of semi auto pistol is beyond me. good old single action revolvers is all they need.most officers never even draw their pistols this will help with morron factor. Proper training is key if a guy is holding a glock or single six they both have the same affect.

  260. Bob Owens has a problem because he is stuck in his ways. Some people refuse to change with new technology. Practice is something many LEOs skip. The Glock is the perfect handgun for LEOs. Its the easiest to fire, maintain, and develop muscle memory with. It has built in safeties that cannot be surpassed except by lack of gray matter. It ain’t pretty but it always works. Ask the Garland police officer. Guns don’t fire themselves Bob.

  261. Perfect practice makes perfect. All of us need to practice more and make sure we do it Right, over and over. During basic training for LEO s Firearms instructors should be able to carry a ruler and wack the finger of an officer that has been for-warned over and over to keep their finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Off TARGET Off TRIGER. On TARGET On TRIGGER. No matter what weapon you are operating! God forbid that any of us have a negligent discharge and accidently hurt someone. But we all know if the rules are not followed the potential to have an accident are greatly increased. There have also been accidents with revolvers with officers failing to keep their finger off the trigger until on target. Carrying a 1911 style auto pistol, locked and cocked with one in the chamber while on patrol feels more unsafe than any other option. The option of an auto pistol with one not in the chamber that we need to action before fired is not an option for LEO’s. If they walk up to the window of a car on a traffic stop and get ambushed at the traffic stop, even with a vest on, the split second that it takes to un holster and get in the gunfight may make the difference between life and death of the officer. Our fine motor skills have been proven to be greatly degraded when in a gun fight or an emergency. Don’t mean any offense but, Anyone that has not been placed into one of these situations is an armchair quarterback. In addition to that, even the ones that have, may have been able to react differently and more efficiently than I have. We are all different. Just like the same dose of medicine reacts one way for one person and different in another. Dayle Robinson LEO Firearm Instructor

  262. I sold various products at approximately 300 gun shows from late 1991 through early 2001. During that time I was in the building when six accidental discharges occurred. All of the AD’s were by vendors. Five of the six AD’s were from Glocks. Fortunately, no one was injured. I personally like Glocks and have owned (note past tense) five or six. All were purchased because I like them. All were sold for the reasons given in the article AND who needs a Glock when you can have an H&K USP .45 ACP!

    1. Who in the HELL allows a loaded firearm inside a gun show? Every show I’ve been to, all weapons are are disabled with a zip tie down the barrel or around the bolt/trigger group so that a live round can’t be chambered. That applies to ALL weapons on the premises whether brought in by a vendor or guest. Any vendor who busts a round inside a show venue should be permanently barred and have his FFL suspended.

  263. It’s not the gun but the user of the gun, I have owened several handguns some of which have been various models of glocks, the glock won’t fire untill the user puts their finger on the triger and squeezes or pulls it. It all boils down to firearms basic safety 101, if someone who carries a gun on a regular basis can’t remember and exercise basic firearms safety then they should not try and blame it on the gun, when it is their error. Glocks are good guns and they have an excellent record and reputation, we shouldn’t blame them when it is the user who is at fault.

  264. I read the article yesterday and the author made some very observant comments that I would have to agree with . . . .

  265. Ask my friends daughter who has spent most of her adult life in a wheel chair because of a accidental discharge made by her boy friend cop who was going to show her his new sidearm. I’m sorry, I should have started by admitting I’m not a fan of Glock. I like steel firearms with external safeties that have to be manually turned off to fire. The people who have them evidently love them but as far as I’m concerned dildos are made of plastic.

  266. I am not a policeman, nor am I a longtime gun owner. As a relatively new gun owner, I own a Glock (among other firearms) and am fanatic about safety. Perhaps my dad (may he rest in peace) instilled in me proper values as he had a shotgun (which I inherited) and when he showed it to me for the first time, he said to me – “treat a gun with RESPECT and ALWAYS assume it is loaded and ready to fire. NEVER Point at someone unless you intend to use it”. This has stayed with me all of my life and was reinforced during my CCH class. Finger on the trigger? ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE. PURE NEGLIGENCE. The fact is that in most of the cases listed by Owens, the police persons it seems would have legitimate reason to have their weapon fire ready, but the finger on the trigger is the key. With another weapon that had a safety, once drawn, the safety would be switched off. They taught us in gun school to NEVER trust the safety anyway, it can fail. That we need to use our own judgment over depending on a mechanical safety when handling a firearm. By putting the blame on a firearm, it takes the responsibility away from the person handling the firearm, which is ridiculous. Weapons are tools, and tools need to be handled according to their specific rules. Just as you would follow certain rules when handling dangerous tools such as power saws, chain saws, etc. These are dangerous tools and need to be handled according to a safety protocol. If you think about it, guns are really no different. Due to their danger, firearms have very specific and defined rules. IF someone mistakenly or by choice fails to follow those rules, they are responsible, not the tool….

  267. Glock was designed for ease of manufacturing, ease of use for mass military issue for combat scenarios. The system is too “Go” for “shoot? No shoot? Civilian/Police defense. Perfectly safe for on the range controlled environments as most firearms and shooters are but, from zero to MACH speed in your face defend yourself pumped full of adrenaline with a Glock without shooting yourself or someone else while trying to keep the bad guy from snatching your Glock from your holster and squeezing the trigger worst case scenario and Murphy’s law starts to rake up points fast. No perfect weapon, no perfect shooters, no perfect training, but we can try. USMC

  268. It’s good this author noted that DA revolvers were used for many decades. My dad has his service Colt 357 and in DA it’s trigger operates much like the Glock. However, the volume of ammunition that LEOs use per-incident now seems to be enormous from when the revolvers were in place and the hit/discharge ration seems astronomic compared to the “old days”.

  269. @TB Rhodes: If you truly believe in disarming the police I have a suggestion for you…Put on the “costume” and spend one night answering calls in a high crime area while unarmed. Your inane comment has no place in a rational discussion between adults. Go back into your Mom’s basement and smoke a little more weed..

  270. I love my single action Rugers, maybe Owens and his Barney Fifes should keep their bullet in their pockets, or use one of these. Extra margin of safety if you cock it each time.

  271. My comment to the above statement is fairly simple and I guarantee 100% accurate. I served in the Navy for 14 years, the first 4 years as a Gunnersmate, which handle and train almost every weapon used by all of the military services, and then the next 10 years as a military police officer and Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor(SAMI) , and a Designated Marksman which is the Navy’s version of a (Sniper) the Navy just uses different terminology. And in all of my years I have taught military and civilian personnel how to properly carry, shoot, and maintain their firearms safely and accurately. Also during my teaching methods I have taken pistols such as the Beretta 92, the Colt 1911, the .38 revolver, and the Sig Sauer P226, and cocked the hammers on all of them and have dropped them from as high as 8 feet, I have slammed them down and have thrown them all onto wooden, metal, and concrete surfaces and not a single weapon has ever had the hammer fall or the weapon fire. And in my professional and personal opinion and this is a 100% true FACT there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. and that is a proven fact due to the fact that a fire alarm of any type loaded with a hammer cock to the rear if it has one can sit anywhere on any surface and any place and never discharge or fired on its own without and that is a proven fact due to the fact that a fire alarm of any type loaded with a hammer cock to the rear if it has one can sit anywhere on any surface and any place and never discharge or fire on its own without human interaction or contact of some type. And anyone who thinks or believes differently including the individual who wrote this article does not need to be writing about firearms, looking at firearms, touching a firearm, and most definitely not carrying, or shooting a firearm, because they have no clue in the world what they are doing, let alone trying to give advice to individuals or trying to give their opinion, by writing articles and just picking out certain negligent incidents, and only certain weapons. Negligent incidents happen all over the world with every type of firearm made but I 100% guarantee that it is always human error,
    and not because of a weapon not having an external safety. I am really curious and would like to know how this Owens character that wrote this article even still has a job, let alone has kept his job as long as he has, because stating the obvious that his experience and knowledge of firearms is severely lacking would be a serious understatement. Not only is his experience and knowledge lacking,he is also lacking one the most crucial and important tools of handling and operating a firearm which is common sense. And like I stated before it’s 1% human error I don’t see him running in this article which in fact it happens almost every day that even a fire arm with a 10 pound plus trigger and one or two or even three external safeties can still be discharged, and like I stated before it’s 100% human error. Also I don’t see him writing in this article what happens almost every day that even a firearm with a 10 pound plus pound trigger and one or two or even three external safeties can still be discharged because of human error. So basically to sum up my opinion is that he needs some severe education and training on the safe handling and operation of firearms or if not maybe he should start writing articles and give his opinion on public sanitation or waste disposal, im sure he will be a natural at writing about those topics, since everything that I have read so far that he has written on the subject of firearms has been garbage anyway, so see he’s already a natural at it

  272. The fact that revolvers don’t have safeties is irrelevant. The length and pressure of a trigger pull is also irrelevant. The writer is correct- cops shouldn’t use Glocks- but for the wrong reasons.
    The lack of a safety is one reason I don’t, won’t, own a Glock. In fact the idea of a handgun without a safety is a bad one, period. I make clicking the thumb safety on my Smith & Wesson 9 mm. a part of my practice. It’s not big deal. And I wouldn’t own a handgun without one.
    The other feature of Glocks I don’t like is the fat high capacity magazines. I doubt that the need for more than a dozen rounds in a clip comes up that often; if you’re worried about it, carry an extra mag. This is more of a personal choice issue, though- and I just don’t like the feel of the fat handle in my hands either, but that’s just me.
    The negligent discharges cited here are caused by poor technique, true. A thumb safety would have prevented some, and for that reason should be standard equipment on all handguns in my opinion, not just those used by law enforcement. The other shootings cited here, like the ones that happen when some dumbass cleans his gun without emptying it first, well no safety on Earth can prevent a fool from doing foolish things. You can’t fix stupid.
    My first gun was my dad’s Model 1922, a .32 scaled-down model of the 1911, and it had THREE safeties: thumb, lemon squeeze, and magazine safety. Having all those features never caused me one single problem. In fact it was comforting to know the gun couldn’t fire when jammed- just take the mag out, duh- or dropped, especially since I was new and a little nervous. But not having a safety? That can cause problems, and when you’re talking about firearms, problems can be serious and have tragic consequences.

    1. Cliff – I have no idea what your experience level with handguns is, but I beg to differ with you on a couple of counts. #1 – the Glock and M&P’s DO have safeties, though probably not the ones to which you are accustomed. The safeties of the aforementioned weapons, as well as other striker-fired weapons, is the TRIGGER itself. S&W offers a thumb safety on their M&P models, but the thumb safety is redundant and superfluous, not to mention time-consuming in a law enforcement situation where the life expectancy of an officer under threat can be measured in nanoseconds. #2 – magazine capacity. Ask any LEO who’s had to engage in a firefight and I’m sure he will tell you how thankful he is that he didn’t have to stop and reload every 6 – 12 rounds and had that extra capacity at his disposal. I won’t argue against firearms with manual safeties. Some people are unsafe with firearms that have 10 safeties. For me, when under threat (when else would you NEED a firearm) I prefer the “Brownie Camera” simplicity – just point and shoot.

  273. I’m with you Dave. Too many times people want to blame the weapon and not the “the gray matter” between the ears. I was in the military and have been through a few conceal weapons courses. And what is the single most important thing the teach. Safety, safety, safety and muzzle control to the nth degree. Do it right and safe, and you’ll never be surprised.

    1. I find it interesting that you completely avoid the point that the author of the original article stated, that police officers subconsciously grip the trigger during stressful situations, and that they refuse to believe it even though it is pointed out to the on video. That was the entire point is singling out hair trigger pulls. It goes beyond training, to natural human tendency. Sure, they shouldn’t have had their fingers on the trigger, but these guys aren’t SEALs. Their training is limited by resources available, they are certified to use firearms, not to become experts capable beyond all natural human subconscious tendencies. That was the point of the article, it’s not bias when it happens 20% of the time. That is a measurable fact. The article was about that 20% of the time, when training does not prevent officers from gripping a trigger in stressful situations. That stress and 20% chance is why he feels glocks/hair triggers are a bad choice for LEOs.
      Also, interesting that you didn’t cite an article about the Penn state trooper. When I google it, I find no info released beyond the initial news report. They did not say what caused the instructor to accidently shoot his student. I think you are being very misleading in implying that that situation was remotely related to hair trigger discharge, or lack thereof. Yes, Bob cited a bad example in the officer that neglected to empty his chamber, but pointing out the Penn officer death by Sig is a stupid response, you do not get anywhere near a correct response to Bob’s original point, that the stress officers encounter causes a natural, subconscious tendency to grip the trigger, no matter how much training is involved.

  274. Being a former police officer, I can tell you the problem is “not enough range time”, some officers might fire their weapon once a year! We had one that had a spider living in the barrel…there is NO muscle memory or handling memory when people are that lax in keeping proficient with a tool of the trade!

    1. TB, I TOTALLY agree. What kind of “costume” do YOU wear? I know for certain that you’re not referring to law enforcement officers because they wear U-N-I-F-O-R-M-S. But your rant is drifting away from the main topic here which concerns Glocks, not bullies, thugs or costumes.

  275. As someone who grew up shooting way back in the mid 60’s I must admit it made me VERY nervous when I bought my first Glock 10 years ago and first experienced the “Safe Trigger system”. It seemed anything but safe to me. I never carry it unless it is in a holster that completely covers the trigger guard. I’m not saying that is a bad thing, just a little inconvenient at times.
    If I was a cop I would most likely carry the Glock because in the life or death situation there is no way to forget to release the safety and end up being taken away in a bag because that fraction of a second was critical.
    As pointed out the key here is personal responsibility for your actions. Something that must be adhered to at all times, but gets less popular every day. It has become way to easy to always blame someone/something else for our mistakes.

  276. You had me until you said :
    Conclusion:

    “Glock sales account for over 60 percent of the handgun market as a whole, and rank as the most popular duty sidearm among law enforcement.”

    Your article why accurate ends up guessing statistics, if you are not then it may be advised in the future to quote your source for making a bold statement like 60%. A Google search shows Sigs nearly and in many places exceeds Glocks for law enforcement.
    I agree with your article but just as progressives always do, I find it irritating myself when someone quotes facts with no source.

  277. The problem is the police, not their guns or guns of choice. Only a fully free and competitive market of private security services can properly address the issues we are facing and provide the required protection we need as a society, not just from the law-breakers in society but from the government as well. The current monopoly police forces are agents of the government whose priorities are set by that government, not the citizens they “serve.” Those priorities are based on politics, the need for revenue, and other motivations that have less to do with keeping us all safe than keeping them in power and control. The failed war on drugs, gambling, prostitution, and other consensual, victimless crimes is the best example. Private companies whose employees must be held accountable not only to the law (with no protective unions or fellow government employees to hide behind) and to the marketplace, are the only proper mechanism for keeping everyone in society safe. It is high time we recognize the problems that come with monopolies…especially the government ones.

    1. Well said, David. Alas, I fear that by the time enough Americans finally realize the truth of what you wrote, we’ll be living in the Fourth Reich. In fact, we’re very close to being there already. The Constitution isn’t merely dying; it’s DEAD, and we’re being encircled.

  278. As I digest this opin./commentary, I’m reminded of the years spent as an industrial safety person and the adage “ALL ACCIDENTS ARE PREVENTABLE!”
    Certainly, the weapon’s brains are tied in with the handler’s; apparent lack of using gray matter! I know! another boring safety drill, you say, but alive to al least make that observation!
    I still will use my Glocks! Using my forefinger as only useless decoration untll sighted on a target! “FAMOUS LAST WORDS!” exceedingly credible!
    Thanks

  279. “If one is deploying their weapon in a life threatening situation. One does not want the safety engaged when the muzzle comes on to target. Finger off the trigger? Yes. Safety engaged? No.”
    Your failure to see logic is the only failure here. Life threatening? Life threatening situation you could still disengage the safety as you draw according to your own words. Where is the finger indexed? You assume that the reason a glock is the best weapon to use is that is ready to fire as soon as you draw. Where is the finger indexed? If you do not have your finger on the trigger you still cannot fire any weapon. And if rushed due to a given situation, it is more likely that you will put too much pressure on the trigger.

    “The tool can and will ONLY do what the hand directed by the mind directs it to do”
    You are kidding me right? So all that training you obviously have (sarcasm) you are telling me that automatic reactions are controlled by the conscious, not sub-conscious parts of the brain, and you have complete control? READ:
    ““The uninformed person will wonder why in a lethal situation you can’t remember how you moved or shot or how many rounds you fired or the movement of the very person you are shooting at to save your life. ”

    http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/1247087-New-findings-expand-understanding-of-tunnel-vision-auditory-blocking-and-lag-time/

    This is well known. Extensive training may negate much of this, but the vast majority of officers do not get the type and quantity of training to allow muscle memory, heart rate, vision to remain normal. Navy SEAL yes, cops in general, no. All I am really trying to argue is that the glock with initial light rigger pull is probably more likely to result in a officer accidentally shooting someone. I do not hate your gun, but don’t point your glock at me when I am on the phone and sneeze, you may become startled and squeeze the trigger a wee bit too much!
    Life threatening in police speak can be a cell phone by the way. I see comments such as yours on the web and I understand why the left believe gun owners are a bunch of wackos. May GOD bless you sir.

  280. Good call to the carpet, Dave!!
    I’m one of the 40 Precentrs that are not a fan of Glock’s but that’s got nothing to do with this guys twisted logic. What exactly is he after here or is his article just about muddying the water further with disinformation?

  281. Nice try but no cigar. Glock fan-boys can defend the guns till their death, I do not care. Facts are facts. Non sequitur still applies to you! Using glocks in the Texas case is a non sequitur! The police used glocks in the shooting, the gun has no external safety, therefore only this type of weapon is safe and effective! The comments you see are in reply to various posts on the web site. They are pertinent to the comments made by the individual posting them. I really do not want to argue, I think glocks are fine weapons, I have also thought for years that police should not be using them. Anyone who believes all cops are expert firearms users and can do no wrong are naive at best. They do not get, nor do they provide themselves with a sufficient amount of weapons training, especially in shoot-don’t shoot scenarios.

    Understanding Non Sequiturs

    Non sequitur statements make a leap that does not make sense or follow logic.

    Some examples of non sequitur arguments include:

    The school in which my child goes to school is big. The classroom must be big.
    She drives a BMW. She must be rich.
    Greenhouse gasses contribute to global warming. Humans contribute to greenhouse gas production. Humans are solely to blame for global warming.
    She’s wearing red shoes. Her favorite color must be red.
    I read about a pitbull attack. My neighbor owns a pitbull. My life is in danger.
    Guns have been used to attack and kill people. All guns are used as weapons against innocent individuals.
    I had a crazy music teacher in elementary school. Music teachers are all pretty crazy.
    When it is sunny, I see my neighbor walk his dog. He must only walk the dog when it is sunny.
    I do not make much money and am unhappy. People who are rich are happy.
    He went to the same college as Bill Gates. He should be famous too.
    from:http://examples.yourdictionary.com/non-sequitur-examples.html

    1. Bob isn’t this an example of non sequitur too?
      Glocks have had negligent discharges.
      All people using glocks will have ND’s. BTW, I’m no fan of Glocks. Your logic is faulty.

    2. D McD you beat me to it! I was going to say the same thing to Bob about his non sequitur with Glocks and ND’s. Thanks for noticing that.

      This guy Bob who says “I really do not want to argue” is continuing to argue so passionately and is burying himself with his non sequiturs 🙂

      And Bob, just because some guns have buttons to push before firing does not make those guns free from accidents and safer than Glocks. There is just as much chance of a guy assuming his safety is on and mishandling his weapon than a Glock owner mishandling his trigger at the wrong time. What you don’t realize is that all of us are on equal ground. All of us don’t want an accidental discharge, and therefore if we have our head on straight, we will take the proper pre-cautions.

      I have a safety on my Desert Eagle 50AE, and I had one on my Berretta 92FS before I sold it, and I can tell you I feel no more confidence with these safeties, because it’s an extra step that you have to remember, and sometimes you forget if it’s on or not.. Also, there are certain movements and motions that can release these types of safeties (especially the 92FS) without knowing it, so they are not 100% protection from accidents.

      Going back to the cop in Garland Texas with AK rounds being fired at him, I can’t help but wonder what might have happened to him and his partner and the people inside the building if he had to fiddle with a safety.

    3. You talk about logic but fail to make a valid argument. You seem to think a safety would have prevented one or more of these incidents. That has no basis in fact, only conjecture. Having an external safety doesn’t generally apply after the weapon is drawn. If the officer in question is “safe” enough to engage a safety, then the valid argument is that the weapon should be holstered. Also EVERY officer is trained to keep their finger off the trigger until ready to fire. No, most officers aren’t firearms experts as they have neither the time or money for that level of training. They are, however, required to demonstrate that they understand safe handling proceedures and basic accuracy. Negligent discharges are by fault of the operator, not some perceived shortfall of a mechanical device. That’s why it’s called negligence! They failed to show proper control over their equipment. The first two incidents, as has previously been stated, were the result of having their finger on the trigger when they were not intending to shoot and the third was failure to check the chamber, both of which are contrary to their training. From the cited resources, their is NO evidence that a longer trigger pull or the addition of an external safety would have changed the outcomes in any way. There is a logic statement for you.

  282. “Blaming the gun is jackassery.” is not what we are discussing!!!! Stop it people. Using a weapon that is not ideal for the situation is what is the topic. Having a safety on the weapon and/or a longer, heavier trigger pull at least. Non sequitur! By many glock owners using the “jackassery” reason that the “safety is between the ears” is what gives reason to the idea that safeties are fine, disengaging the safety as drawing the weapon when the situation dictates is possible under any stressful scenario.

    1. Bob we don’t have to “stop it”. We like the gun that is the most popular in the USA. We know what the topic is, and the Glock IS ideal for the situation. Just ask the policeman who killed the 2 terrorists in Garland Texas last week. I don’t think he wanted a “longer, heavier trigger pull at least” on his Glock to make those head shots on guys who were shooting at him with AK’s.

      My 2 Glocks have trigger jobs that make them 4 pounds. It still is a long heavy trigger pull for me. If you need a reverse trigger job for yourself, like 12 pounds, because of your viewpoints, then go get one. The NYPD has a 12 pound Glock rule in their department, and there are stories on the net of NYPD officers missing their targets and hitting bystanders.

      Lastly, you cry out “Non sequitur!”. I looked up the definition of that and it says “a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.”. Congratulations Bob, because when I started reading your posts, from the very first one today, that’s exactly what I was feeling about the sentences you were stringing together. So thanks much for supplying the definition of what I was feeling from your arguments. That is classic, LOL!!

    2. @SS1
      Well stated!! After reading all the complete comment string in agree with your position.

  283. Different safety system and not even applicable here. The gun is out of your holster, you are pointing it at someone, and your trigger is in the trigger guard , maybe on the trigger. If you do not do this (finger in the trigger guard) Then why not disengage the safety as you draw the weapon or as the situation dictates? Disengaging the safety is in between the ears right? And what does my or anyone else having been/not been in a shooting situation have to do with proven physiological events during these situations?. It is similar to someone being in a firefight (infantry) firing 1000 rounds and the claiming to be a expert in ballistics and “stopping” power!

  284. Hmmm…so you are saying that in these situations, having your hand in the trigger guard is OK and the safety in between the ears is going to function 100%. You contradict yourself…if the person can consciously NOT put too much pressure on the trigger, why can’t that they disengage the safety with no problem…the disengage the safety is between the ears?

  285. This is an easy one. The reason that they are called negligent discharges is because someone was negligent.

    Operating firearms safely is not difficult but it does require unyielding vigilance. Blaming the gun is jackassery.

  286. I agree with both Mikial & Smitty550th both are correct! I would never buy let alone use a glock of any type.

  287. BTW

    That is one hell of a fine looking peace officer in that photo. Glad you did not use the other profile with the long knife scar on his face.

    He will not be getting a call from the Ford Modeling Agency any time soon.

  288. Excellent job Dave!
    No firearms suffers a fool. During revolver days at the PD there were plenty of holes in the wall due to ADs. Many agencies went to the double action only revolver in hopes of cutting down on discharges. Not true accidental discharges, none of them- they were negligent discharges. Kit Carson wrote of a ND in the field on the trail west that resulted in the amputation of a settler’s arm. It happens all of the time. Two hands together may exert a force of some 100 pounds. The Glock is a pistol that values the tactical over the technical.

  289. I’m not personally a fan of Glocks (I carry Beretta M9, PX4 subcompact, and Sig P232 – never with the safety engaged) but there’s certainly nothing inherently dysfunctional or unsafe about their design (contrary to some opinions) – the common factor in the cited events is a stupid, careless human – I carried a 1911 cocked and locked for years with never coming close to an accident

  290. “NDs don’t just happen with Glocks, they happen with every brand and type of gun made. To blame the gun for human error, is the same as blaming the gun in an active shooter incident. Guns are inanimate objects, people act.”
    I agree, but lets reduce the possibility by using manual safeties by those that point weapons at people as part of their jobs. I am not talking about civilians at the range. CCW with Glock may also be a problem…training is needed.

    1. I wonder whether you’ve ever been in a high pressure, life and death, split second, draw and shoot situation? Fumbling a rotating safety at a moment like that can be unhealthy

    2. Agreed, Archangel.

      I’ve worked high risk security for the past 11 years, and I have been in situations like you describe. I have used everything from AK47s and M4’s, to MP5s, Browning Hi-Powers, Glocks and Kimbers. Nothing deploys as fast as a Glock.

      But I also agree that it requires training to use ANY firearm. Mechanical safety or Glock “safe action,” you have to train, train, train. We are ripping our police off by not giving them the screening and training they need.

    3. Sorry Bob but your logic faulty. The manual safety is disengaged durning the draw, or should be, making the weapon “Hot”. It where the trigger finger is located at this point that is the difference between an ND and a controlled deployment of ones firearm. If one is deploying their weapon in a life threatening situation. One does not want the safety engaged when the muzzle comes on to target. Finger off the trigger? Yes. Safety engaged? No.
      ND’s are about a lapse in focus and concentration plane and simple. Sometimes it’s about a lack of training LE , Military, or Civilian. Sometimes it’s that one just can’t teach stupid.
      What it isn’t, is a failure of the tool in the hand. The tool can and will ONLY do what the hand directed by the mind directs it to do.
      If the mind isn’t focused and paying attention a manual safety, or a long hard trigger pull or any other mechanical measure will have any impact on the situation.
      Your logic is flawed, you would have a mindless mechanical devise somehow be smarter than the mind and hand that controls the firearm. How exactly is that expected to work? Epic fail.

  291. I’ve never had a problem with Glocks. I keep my finger AND OTHER FOREIGN MATTER clear of the trigger guard. I do not like double-action handguns with external hammers and a safety that must be taken off before I fire. In my opinion it is being too cruel to Glock, and/or any other manufacturer against any record whatsoever from anywhere in New York and/or the other quasi-commie northeastern states (and CA). Folks there simply cannot grow up with firearms like a lot of other folks can in other states. This does make a difference.

  292. “Don’t put your finger in the trigger guard until you want to shoot. I have 7 Glocks and have no problem.”
    I agree with you, we are talking about cops and type of weapons used. Fine motor skills and the brain are severely affected by HIGHLY stressful situations. It could be safety on when pointed at person, off when firing, the brain can handle that correct? I therefore see no problems with manual safeties.

  293. Never could see myself shooting an ugly gun, so never got myself a Glock. However, a finger inside the trigger guard before it’s time to pull the trigger is violation of one of the four ALWAYS safety rules, and makes me go to the “negligent discharge is not the fault of the weapon” argument.

  294. This is a debate that engages emotions over logic and case studies of negligent discharges vs ‘personal preference.

    IF you study the Glock safety record (number of accidental discharges recorded, law sits paid by Glock etc) THEN you would have to conlude that the Glock is dangerous design.

    But then come the Glokc owners and lovers who will say “Sure but that’s because there are more Glocks out there than any other pistol” or “I have had my Glock as carry gun for 25 years and had not one negligent discharge’ or my favorite “The Glock won’t fire unless you pull the trigger”

    Yet non of the above counter arguments are truly valid. Just enter Glock Lawsuits” or Glock Accidental discharges etc into any search engine.. You could spend days reading about this subject. Then of course enter the New York Trigger for the Glock.

    The main thing people just can’t accept unless they have been in real gunfight is what the adrenal stress does to both fine motor control and judgement. Teh striker fired design is the basic problem with the Glock.It is always cocked if chambered.

    In my courses I see this all the time and for years.Under adrenal stresss scenarios the Glock is fired prematurely more than any other desiagn we keep to fire simmution.

    My late friend Jim Cirillo hated the Glock at first and then began to carry one and liked it. OK Jim had been in a dozen shoot out as NYPD detective, Yet he agreed the gun was too dangerous for ordinary streeet cops.

    Striker fired guns are the elast expensive to make, Glock proved they could sell though. But look at the XD and others, they have 1911 style grip safeties.

    Now is 1911 safe kept cocked and locked? I would say not so safe under stress. In my day soldiers played with the 1911 and a good number shot themselves or others.

    It is the stress of ra real attack that changes everything. If you have not experienced anything but range training there is no way you can understand that.

    I shoot fast and well well with Glocks,did the first one I picked up too (sent to me by Glock decades ago). But I prefer a double action, external hammer auto for safety.

    1. “But I prefer a double action, external hammer auto for safety.”

      I won’t even go as far as that. I’m perfectly content with carrying in Condition 2 knowing that I have to do something affirmative to actually shoot it.

    2. “They are always cocked when a round is chambered”
      And you are an instructor? I would not own a Glock for over a decade because I thought the same thing. Never felt comfortable with a 1911 because of the hammer always being back.
      Then read up on the Glock and understood that it isn’t cocked until you partially depress the trigger, it is partially cocked but not enough to fire a round until you depress the trigger safety, apply enough pressure to complete cocking, then more pull to release the striker.
      I carry a G36 and absolutely love it, and feel 100% safe handling it since I know it cannot go off without consciously pulling the trigger.
      But, I do feel that anyone putting in a 3.5-4 lb trigger kit into anything but a target weapon is causing a perfectly safe pistol to become less safe as a carry firearm… But you still have to pull the trigger to fully cock and fire the weapon. Trigger finger stays pointed alongside trigger guard until you plan on shooting something or someone…. Period.

  295. As someone already commented on this thread, “Once the finger goes into the trigger guard, all safety systems are off.”

    That should only happen once the legitimate target is acquired. A mechanical safety is no substitute for the most basic of gun handling training . . . know where you’re aiming and keep your finger off the trigger until you’re ready to shoot.

    That is just as true on the street as at the range. I’ve carried and used guns under stressful conditions and everyone on my team practiced that very basic practice.

    NDs don’t just happen with Glocks, they happen with every brand and type of gun made. To blame the gun for human error, is the same as blaming the gun in an active shooter incident. Guns are inanimate objects, people act.

  296. Glocks are very safe weapons, and I’m very happy one was used to take out those idiots in Garland Texas. BTW I wonder how many yards away he was with those head shots?

    Bob Owens should resign his position as an editor of Bearing Arms. He’s a moron and a turncoat.

    1. Also, what short trigger pull? I wish the trigger pull on my G20 and G29 was shorter. The long trigger pull annoys me.

  297. I agree with the article. That is exactly what happens and to pretend that “the safety is between the ears” is asinine. Revolvers had/have longer/harder trigger pulls and you know that. What happens to fine motor skills when you are in highly stressful situation? GONE! “too dangerous” for law enforcement” we are next is a false premise. If you truly believe that glocks are safe because of their safety system, you are ignorant. Once the finger goes into the trigger guard, all safety systems are off. Mechanical problems is another red herring argument. Point the weapon in a safe direction? Are you trying to get cops killed? When they draw their weapons, they generally have to point it at the suspect (in case the suspect is carrying a cell phone or other object that can be mistaken for a weapon and make the police officer “fear for his/her life”). At the range the firearms rules should always be followed, they are not at the range. PA cop incident non sequitur. Glocks should not be used by law enforcement period. Most police officers are not “highly trained firearms experts” that fire thousands of rounds a month. Most fire only during qual sessions. Glock perfection my ass! Put a safety on it! If you go with the “safety is between the ears” slogan, then remembering and quickly disengaging the pistol safety of any weapon is also “between the ears”.

    1. “..to pretend that ‘the safetyis between the ears’ is asinine.” Yes! someone finally said it. If you think your brain is a flawless safety mechanism, well, you’ just don’t have a good grasp on how incredibly stupid we, the human species, actually are. If you can complement that “safety between your ears”, you would be wise to do it.

      All that said, I love my Glock–as a home defense weapon, but I would never carry it.

  298. I believe this is the exact same argument I had here a month or so ago: While, as properly noted, officers violated basic firearms safety, one cannot get around the fact that only having a trigger “safety” is no safety at all.
    Also, the revolver analogy falls down because shooting a revolver DA takes a damn sight more than 5-6 lbs of pressure to fire.
    The 1911 comparison conveniently overlooks the grip safety that also has to be engaged; that sure would have been a factor in the takedown scenario, in addition to many shootings when drawing when the first things encountered are the grip…and the trigger. Safeties are like crush zones in cars. You want engineers to design a product to protect you Just In Case. It’s much easier to have one and not elect to use it, than to have a deficient design that doesn’t give you the choice.

    No, no one should say “the police shouldn’t use Glocks.” The market should decide that…but the Glock sycophancy will keep pushing a dangerous, defective design.

    1. Actually, Rick, I do agree with you that Glocks do not have an actual safety no matter what they choose to claim. Neither do XDs, even with the addition of a grip safety. Nevertheless, they are my two EDC guns and the ones I practice with the most.

      But I still disagree with the article. The problem isn’t the gun, it’s the lack of proper training for LEOs. Look at how many incidents lately have been deliberate shootings by LEOs without justification. They haven’t been the fault of a safety or no safety, they have been the fault of poor training and poor leadership.

      I’m not down on cops. I was a probation officer for several years and my son is a deputy sheriff, but too many big city police are poorly trained and supervised because too much money is wasted on other things than police training.

  299. Don’t put your finger in the trigger guard until you want to shoot. I have 7 Glocks and have no problem.

    1. Amen, Stuart.

      I’ve carried a Glock 21 as my EDC for years, and it has had a 4 pound trigger installed. I guess that must make it doubly unsafe . . . except that I have never had a negligent discharge with it or any other firearm. I do admit that i like the XD because it has a grip safety as well as a trigger safety, but that is not a deal breaker.

    2. The trouble is most instances of “Glock Leg” occur without the trigger finger even being within the trigger gaurd! Windbrakr drawstring slides, short tails, holster parts have all produced a “Glock Leg” most often when the person is re-holstering..
      I never did learn but I would bet that the case of the “sheriff’s posse” member who accidentally shot the black suspect when he thought he had his taser instead, involved a Glock.

  300. Why, everyone knows that Glocks are unsafe, dangerous and should be banned. On second thought, let’s ban all handguns….especially those that don’t require safeties.

    The idiocy goes on and on.

  301. The problem is not ANY weapon…the problem is not knowing how to control the weapon and ones self…police have way way to little training and way way to little practice….over and over and over and over…is needed…Remember it’s the operator that needs the training…..not the weapon…..Kimber .45 my carry choice.

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