News

Obama to Outlaw .223 Ammunition (M855) Through Executive Action

.223 NATO Lake City M855 FMJ 62 Grain Steel Penetrator Ammo

It is doubtful that anyone reading this article will truly be surprised that Obama and his cronies in key government posts are trying to once again de facto suppress our Second Amendment rights. They were not able to make it happen through the legislature, but Obama has his phone and his pen. Currently, it seems the President is using both to target gun owners, specifically owners of AR-15s. If you can’t outlaw the guns, get rid of the ammunition.

The AR-15 platform, also commonly referred to as the Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR), has dominated the civilian market. I am not sure of the numbers, but it certainly runs in the millions. The logic flows like this. After any major war or conflict, the service rifle of the day becomes popular among the civilian market. With well over a decade of conflict in the Middle East, it logically flows that a civilian version of the rifle service members were trained with and relied on would become popular. It happened with the M1, M14, Winchester Model 70, Remington 700, 1911 and the list goes on both in eras spanning before and after this list.

.223 NATO Lake City M855 FMJ 62 Grain Steel Penetrator Ammo
.223 NATO Lake City M855 FMJ 62 Grain Steel Penetrator Ammo

The popularity of the AR-15/MSR is the reason it is a target of the Obama administration. The latest assault on the Second Amendment came after the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) unexpectedly announced on Friday the 13th that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” Instead of going through the legislative process as intended, President Obama is using his executive authority to once again impose gun control measures.

Three Major 2A Assaults in 2015 Already

Obama is a lame duck with nothing to lose. He will never run for office again and does not care about public opinion—at least not the public opinion of gun owners. We are not even two months into the year, and we have already seen three major assaults on the Second Amendment through executive action. The first came when the activities that constitute “manufacturing” firearms were changed. Next, was the flip-flopping decision of the BATFE regarding firing a shouldered pistol.

The most serious, or at least far reaching, is of course the BATFE’s “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c).” The new proposed regulation would eliminate the M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.

The Backstory

Federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely… from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium.”

We now have AR pistols, which of course are capable of shooting M855—i.e. handguns. On the face, this would seem to run afoul of the law… unless you actually dissect the bullet. The core is not made of any of the materials listed. The M855 uses a lead core with a steel tip, therefore, it is not, nor was it ever “armor piercing.” Not to be bothered by pesky facts or the letter of the law, the BATFE declared the M855 as armor piercing anyway, but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”

How Will this Affect You?

Perhaps Obama’s phone has made the BATFE “reconsider” its position. Going forward, the BATFE will only grant the sporting exemption in two categories of projectile:

Category I: .22 Caliber Projectiles

A .22 caliber projectile that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) will be considered to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile weighs 40 grains or less AND is loaded into a rimfire cartridge.

Category II: All Other Caliber Projectiles

Except as provided in Category I (.22 caliber rimfire), projectiles that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition will be presumed to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile is loaded into a cartridge for which the only handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade is a single shot handgun. ATF nevertheless retains the discretion to deny any application for a “sporting purposes” exemption if substantial evidence exists that the ammunition is not primarily intended for such purposes.

Barack Obama
With his phone and pen, will Obama cause the next ammo crunch?

In essence, you can have AP rounds for a rimfire .22 or a wildcat cartridge in which the only handgun commonly available or used is a single shot handgun—what a joke!

Two Chances to do Something About it

The NRA-ILA and others are of course on the case and looking for ways to stop this latest assault. The BATFE is accepting comments until March 16, 2015 on this absurd attempt to restrict ammunition for the most popular rifle in America in an attempt to trample our Second Amendment rights once again. Early next week, we should have a follow up article with more in depth details as well as information regarding how you can submit comments and make your voice heard. For now, share this information with your friends and let’s start marshaling our pro 2A forces.

There is a lesson to be learned and this is your wakeup call. In the mid ‘90s when the Assault Weapons Ban was enacted, the prices of ARs skyrocketed. The same was true when the Obama administration banned Russian imports last year. The prices shot through the roof overnight. Who knows whether or not the BATFE will be successful or whether we are able to muster enough public support to thwart it efforts. Until then, I think I will stock up on some M855 while supplies are plentiful and the prices are good.

Do you think the BATFE will successfully ban the sale of M855 ammunition? Share your thoughts in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (332)

  1. IMPEACHMENT: Is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which depending on the country, may include the removal of that official from office as well a criminal or civil punishment.

    The Impeached President William Jefferson Clinton, and yet he remained in office until his term was over. NOTHING HAPPENED

    If the actually had anything the Impeach President Barack Obama on, the certainly would have already done so. Once out of office, it rather becomes a MUTE POINT.

    1. @ 1 ab urbe condita,

      You wrote:

      “If the actually had anything the Impeach President Barack Obama on, the certainly would have already done so. Once out of office, it rather becomes a MUTE POINT.”

      First off the term is MOOT POINT, not MUTE POINT. Pairing “mute point” has no canonized meaning in standardized English. Just trying to help you not embarrass yourself in the future.

      And second, there are easily multiple impeachable offenses committed by Obama which have been charged publicly by many members of our Legislative Branch.

      However, Congress’ failure to act on Obama’s impeachable activities stems from the unwillingness by our Legislative Branch to work as a whole body to proceed. Their reluctance is based on the perception that it would be construed as racist to impeach the first black president.

      In today’s so-called politically correct climate, no one in Congress is willing to go down in the history books, of which, will surely be written to make them appear racially malicious.

      Obama could, and already has, done just about anything and he will still never have to worry about facing an impeachment due to his skin color. Worse is he very much knows this and plays off of it.

    2. @ G-Man

      Something for the Bigot’s Handbook.

      The National Center for Health Statistics of 1989, The Management and Budget and Information and Regulatory Affairs called Standard for Classification of Federal Date on Race & Ethnicity.

      65 N.Y.L.U., Revised 479 (1990).

      Birthing Mother, determines Race & Ethnicity (No Longer the Father). President Barack Hussein “Barry” Obama, II is WHITE!

    3. @ 1 ab urbe condita

      Now you’re just being stupid to the point of absurdity.

      If you were right, which you are not, Obama was born in 1961 which was well before the several revisions by the OMB for adopting new rules on race and ethnic record reporting. This means statistically on the official record books Obama will forever remain BLACK.

      Regardless, were you to have actually taken the time to read the Federal OMB rules you would also know they’ve determined that ultimately race is determined based on a method of self-identification.

      As a federal employee and law enforcement officer I am very aware of these OMB rules. For the purpose of civil rights violations, school applicants, or any form of employment – an individual’s race and ethnicity is determined by how that person self-identifies. As such, Obama very clearly has publicly self-identified as the first black president.

      You lost credibility when you failed in your knowledge to properly employ grammar such as “mute point”, everything you’ve written since is just down-hill. Please go waste someone else’s time.

    4. @ G-man

      It’s Retroactive, Sir. I went through ~400 websites, before posting the comment. So don’t even try to SNOW ME, Sir.

    5. @ G-Man.

      You contradicted yourself at least Twice in your Rebuttal Comment. And the President can call himself Green and Martian for all I care, Sir. The Facts Stands, The New Revised Law, Say’s Birth Mother and NOT Seed Father.

    6. I guess it all depends on what rules or criteria you are going by and whether or not the categorizations are grandfathered. While we are on that subject, according to Muslim law he is a Muslim. If your father is a Muslim, you’re a Muslim. You can convert to, but not away from, being a Muslim.

    7. @ Don P.

      Barack Obama’s, religious belief is Catholic. And popular belief said his father was a Muslim, he WASN’T. The Village in which he grew up in was mostly Islamic, his father was actually a Luo-Roman Catholic mix. Again, President Obama is a MUTT. Living in a Country of MUTT’S (aka the USA).

    8. So many Americans treat Obama like he is really trying to be our president…..HE IS NOT … He works for the Muslim Brotherhood…. why do you think he has appointed so many Muslims to positions of authority in our government? He is here by design to destroy America and Israel for Islam. (George Soros put him in office). Once you understand that FACT then all his actions and policies make perfect sense! If you want to see Obama’s play book GOOGLE THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD PLAN FOR AMERICA! THEN GOOGLE SAUL ALINISKY’S PLAN….. He is using the week minded of which in this once great country there are many to further is Islamist cause. Remember we have over 8 million Muslim THUGS in our country now and Obama is bringing in more daily and putting them on welfare and food stamps. When Obama is ready he will turn them and the blacks loose to do all the damage the can to finish destroying America! Just a worried Patriot’s opinion!

    9. @ Donnie Lowe.

      And you have Actually Independently Verifiable PROOF of that, Correct Sir. Just like G-Man, has Actual Absolute Proof that President Obama was born in Kenya. RIGHT. Ask him why he hasn’t submitted that PROOF to the Impeachment Council, YET.

    10. “Barack Obama’s, religious belief is Catholic. And popular belief said his father was a Muslim, he WASN’T. The Village in which he grew up in was mostly Islamic, his father was actually a Luo-Roman Catholic mix. Again, President Obama is a MUTT. Living in a Country of MUTT’S (aka the USA).”

      Well, I guess that depends on where you get your information. I have never heard of Obama claiming to be a Catholic. He was baptized in the United Church of Christ (remember Jeremiah Wright?) and, according to Time Magazine, worships with a Southern Baptist pastor at Camp David.

      According to Snopes, his father was a Muslim. According to Wikipedia, his father was a Roman Catholic and converted to being a Muslim at the same time he changed his name from Onyango to Hussein. He later became an Atheist. So you are correct when you said he was a Catholic, but wrong when you said “he WASN’T” a Muslim.

      The whole thing still goes back to my original statement: “…it all depends on what rules or criteria you are going by…” According to Muslim law, you can convert TO, but not away FROM, being Muslim and if your father is a Muslim, you are a Muslim. So, by their rules, Obama is a Muslim. His Father converted to being a Muslim well before Obama was born and, by those rules, was a Muslim when Obama was born. Since his father was a Muslim, Obama is a Muslim… by those rules.

      On the topic of what religion someone claims to be, ISIS claims to be Muslim, but Obama refuses to accept the claim that they are. With that in mind, why does anyone have to accept Obama’s claim of being a Christian?

    11. @ Donald Poindexter

      I actually looked up the information, like a Good Fact Checker would, Sir. Not bring up a FOX News report on the subject…

    12. “I actually looked up the information, like a Good Fact Checker would, Sir. Not bring up a FOX News report on the subject…”

      And what, exactly, was your point on bringing up Fox News? Is that where you got your information that he is Catholic? If you do a Google search of “Obama baptized”, three of the first four results are from Newsweek, Wikipedia and the New York Times. They all confirm that Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ… which isn’t Catholic. The Wikipedia article states that he now worships with a Southern Baptist Pastor. So, what are your sources?

    13. @ Don P

      His father was a Luo-Roman Catholic. In Third World Countries like in Africa, the Roman Catholic Church bends the rules, for keeping the Catholic Faith. One allowance is allowing Priest’s too Marry.

    14. “His father was a Luo-Roman Catholic. In Third World Countries like in Africa, the Roman Catholic Church bends the rules, for keeping the Catholic Faith. One allowance is allowing Priest’s too Marry.”

      To quote a “somewhat reputable” source on the subject of Barack Obama Sr., how about Barack Obama at the 2009 National Prayer Breakfast, from an article in The New York Times (February 5, 2009):”I was not raised in a particularly religious household. “I had a father who was born a Muslim but became an atheist…”

      Maybe you have a more reputable source?

    15. @ Don P

      What his father said, is the Village he grew up in, was mostly Muslim. He never said that he was Muslim.

    16. “What his father said, is the Village he grew up in, was mostly Muslim. He never said that he was Muslim.”

      Never? Am I supposed to take your word for it, since, I suppose you interviewed him? Like you said previously:“I actually looked up the information, like a Good Fact Checker would”. Well, a good fact checker would also state who his references are, which you have yet to do. I stated mine. I’m waiting to hear the name of your source is who is, apparently, a better source about Barack Obama’s father than Barack Obama! Considering Barack Obama said his father was born a Muslim, I would say that his father was born a Muslim, unless you are going to tell me that Barack Obama is a liar… which I probably would not argue against.

    17. @ Don P.

      I stand corrected. His Father was born Roman Catholic, but converted to Islam.

    18. @ 1 ab urbe condita:

      I have no desire to “snow” you as there is no need. If only you understood what you think you were reading on those so-called 400 sites, and then had the experience, expertise, and ability to properly apply it to real-world government activities, then you would know what a ridiculous waste of time your comments have been.

      As a government employee I can assure you first and foremost what you are reading is by no means a law. It is a rule which only applies to how agencies of the Federal government may collect race data; hence the rule’s title – “Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity”.

      The method is used to determine race statistic on populations only on behalf of Federal government programs such as – Federal benefits, Federal civil rights violations, Federal housing trends, and Federal employment statistics to name a few. Even so, all of this is still only collected within the confines of applicable Federal government operations and has no meaning anywhere else.

      As a Federal only rule (not law), it has no authority what-so-ever over how the States chose to collect this data, which coincidentally, are the primary collection repositories for birth statistics in the first place, thus the Federal government has no control. Simply put, States may collect, collate, store and analyze their own data anyway they see fit which means each State determines race not the OMB.

      This is not to say States don’t attempt to cooperate with the Federal government to lend them their data to do with as they please, but there is no law to compel such cooperation. Thus explains why it is not uncommon for State statistical race data to vary widely from Federal statistics.

      Historically each time the OMB has decided to update their collection rules (which you’ve confused with a law), such changes have only ever applied to the data collection efforts within the Federal government. But even with that, a stipulation within their rules quite specifically states that in order to save taxpayer dollars, no effort will be made to retroactively update pre-existing data. So you are wrong.

      Even the CDC adopts State statistics over Federal. The CDC has to ignore Federal race data because it hinders their ability to properly track racially predominant health conditions as deadly as Sickle Cell Anemia which affects more black people than any other race in the world.

      Were Obama to have taken your pathetic research on OMB matters and considered himself white, he would never know to get the proper screening for the deadly condition.

      Even with all my overwhelming enlightenment, I’ve no doubt you are still ready to fire back some stupid comment just because you hate being wrong rather than learning what is right. It’s too bad there are people that act as ignorantly as you do, otherwise the world would be a much more productive place.

    19. @ G-Man.

      My medication causes my Eyes to Blur. All you had to do is point out my misspelling, but you decided that was far enough. So you Escalated the situation. Is that how you treat all newcomers to the Forum. I don’t recall you Chewing out people for using Blackberry Qwerty Texting, instead of Standard Grammatical Syntax, maybe I haven’t gone back far enough in my getting the Feel For the Landscape of the Shooter’s Log.

    20. @1 ab urbe condita:

      Maybe it’s that your profile name scares some of us. What the heck is that name anyways? Inquiring minds want to know.

    21. @ ss1

      Rome was founded in 754 BC or 1 AUC. AUC or ab urbe condite means “year of the city”, or sometime’s the 1st Republic. It’s the way the Roman’s measure the Years of their Calendar. Every ancient civilization had their own calendar system of tracking time. There’s nothing offensive about it.

    22. @1 ab urbe condita:

      WOW, that is deep. I never would have guessed it.

      My name is a leftover from my days on a huge golf forum. It means Sam Snead #1, and it looks like the way Tiger’s game is falling apart, Sam may always have the most PGA Tour wins 🙂

    23. @ ss1

      I racked my brains for weeks trying too figure out your Persona. My finale conclusion was “Staff Sergeant of the 1st”. But first of what, I didn’t know. Something Normandy related, I suspected.

    1. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and others, are doing all that they can to destroy this country..

  2. Unbelievable ATF ban reversal!

    Anyone following this forum may have caught my couple of posts in which I corrected Dave Dolbee and the NRA because in reality – according to official ATF publications the ammo ban was already in effect and the real purpose for the ATF’s March 15th public comment deadline was not intended to allow for the voicing of opposition to their ban, but was instead exclusively for public solicitation for opinions as to how they should best implement the ban for minimal impact to the market.

    In other words, according to ATF documents the ban had already happened regardless of our comments. But now Fox News has published a front page article exposing this, and upon request for ATF comment on the matter, it forced the ATF to withdraw the publication while claiming it was a mistaken “early release” of an un-official document.

    WHAT A FREAK’N CROCK OF SH*T THIS ADMINISTRATION IS. There was no mistake as to what that document reads, nor was it mistakenly published on their site for the world to see. They were testing the waters to see what they could get away with and that is crap.

    While I am glad our entire pro-active efforts finally brought enough pressure to bear, it is disgusting that this administration thought they could get away with this, and then once caught, thinks it’s as easy as saying it was a mistake by saying the document wasn’t an official release after all.

    Here is the Fox News link:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/09/atf-guide-indicates-bullets-at-center-political-firestorm-already-banned/

    1. What a bunch of idiots.

      “We’re just utterly incompetent, not utterly criminal.”

      Nobody with an IQ over 5 would ever believe that M855 was just accidentally dropped from the list of ammo NOT banned.

  3. I don’t even own a .223 rifle/pistol, and I would hate to see the ‘government’ step in and ban it’s ammunition. What’s next, PAINT BALLS?? Join the NRA, NOW!

  4. This is utterly ridiculous. I am retired military with over 20 years of honorable service. The banning of 5.56 ammunition is in direct violation of a US citizens second amendment rights. Instead of picking on the American citizens right to bear arms, how about making sure our brothers in arms come back to the USA after fighting a war that cant be won, and take care of them after their return.

  5. I’ve read that a lot of Congressmen and Senators are raising Cain about the Hitler like move Obama and BATFE are trying to do. I just hope they have the b***s to fight him on this.

    If it takes going to the Supreme Court, I think Obama & BAFTE will be shot down. Obama should be impeached for all the illegal things he has done.

    Hell, if they tried to impeach Clinton for getting a little on the side, that pales in comparison of what Obama has been doing to our Constitunial rights the last seven years. He should have been impeached a long time ago.

    1. “Hell, if they tried to impeach Clinton for getting a little on the side, that pales in comparison of what Obama has been doing to our Constitunial rights the last seven years. He should have been impeached a long time ago.”

      Dave, try getting your facts straight… or were you just intentionally making an asinine statement of hyperbole? (1) They did not try to impeach Clinton, they actually impeached him. (2) It wasn’t “for getting a little on the side”, it was for obstruction of justice and perjury in a sexual harassment suit in which he was the person accused of sexual harassment.

  6. all the crap that obama has done to the AMERICAN people…congress has enough PROOF to IMPEACH…if they werent such a group of WUSSIES…maybe just the idea of impeachment…he wud do the smart thing (like Nixon)…AND QUIT…that wud be the noble thing for him to do

  7. Although I agree with all regarding the stupidity of this attempt to ban an ammunition that even NYPD has said is not a threat to police officers, we are, however, our own worse enemies.
    Within about five (5) minutes of checking I found the following sites that are selling the M855 (NATO SS109) ammunition using the term “penetrator” or “armor penetrating” in their discription:
    Cheaper Than Dirt (who is sponsoring this)
    AGAmmo.com; GonBuyer.com; SurplusAmmo.com; LuckyGunner.com; MidwayUSA.com; and AlamoAmmo.com.
    If we want to keep a type of ammunition for target and/or hunting we have to be careful about how we describe it. Those words (penetrator and armor penetrating) are trigger words that the anti-gunners use as ammunition against us. We have to stop using these words.
    The same goes for how we describe our firearms. Using terms like weapon also trigger the anti-gunners. We need to be very aware of how we present our sport or the Emperial Federal Government may be able to get away with stomping all over our Second Ammendment Rights (and the rest of the Constitution as well).

    1. Tom,
      I agree with you 110%. They DO need to change how they describe their products. Cheaper than Dirt, your just as guilty as the rest of them.

      Rewrite your definitions of your products before they try to ban everything.
      Thanks, Tom, you brought up a very valid point.

  8. I am a retired soldier and I’m totally embarrassed of our government and it’s willingness to take our righrs which only a certain few are willing to stand up for. Also, I live in an area which most police are politically appointed and ineffective only to respond after the crime is over. Banning ammo of any kind is the beginning of making citizens unable to defend themselves and enjoy our wonderful sport. Shame on our current government!!!

  9. Too late.

    The BATFE has already issued its revised regulations for 2015, and has removed the exemption for .223/5.56 ammo with a steel penetrator core projectile, effectively outlawing them.

    The regulations typically only get revised every 10 years or so, because of the huge amount of work required to do so, so this has been long-planned.

    Here is the article:

    EXCLUSIVE: Common AR-15 Green Tip Ammunition Already Banned in New ATF Regulation Guide
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

    1. @Mr. Anomilus

      I think a lot of people understood that the ban is already in effect, so the efforts to object to ATF are too late.

      I will be shocked if this ban is not struck down in court fairly quickly. Real families’ livelihoods are at stake, as well as the ability and basic human right of real Americans to defend ourselves using every lawful means at our disposal.

      Every administration since 1985 has agreed that M855 is not covered by the statute, so the Obama administration will have a tough fight to convince a judge otherwise. This especially a problem for Obama given that, after the McDonald case (in which his hometown of Chicago got their butts handed to them) the ban now has to meet “strict scrutiny” — the toughest standard under constitutional law.

      Under “strict scrutiny” Obama has to show (a) a legitimate government interest in banning M855 (can’t because M855 is not actually armor piercing and no cop has ever died from M855 shot from a handgun through armor) and (b) that the ban is the least restrictive way to protect that interest (can’t because the law could simply make it “:more illegal” than it already is to use an actual armor piercing round against a cop).

      A general ban on any round cannot meet that standard, and the result is that the ENTIRE statute should fall as unconstitutionally over broad.

      Any hand loader with a minimal machine shop can create a REAL armor piercing round, so banning a round that is not even armor piercing is not going to save any lives. If armor piercing ammo really is a threat to cops lives, just make it a capital offense to use any round that actually goes through a cop’s body armor. Problem solved, as much as any statute can every solve any problem.

  10. FYI @ ANYONE.

    The Mark One 3-D Carbon Fiber/Kevlar/Fiberglass Printer, can be obtained through Nova Copy of Nashville, TN. With locations in Nashville TN, Memphis TN, Jackson TN, Chattanooga TN, Knoxville TN, Dallas TX, and Malden MO. I don’t know who their Shipping Agents are, but you can contact them @ http://www.novacopy.com or 1-800-264-0637 or 1-615-577-7677. They also have Software only, if you already own a 3-D Printer…

  11. @ Don P.

    Ok, I really don’t have anything definitive. But there’s the Gun Barrel Proof Act of 1868, 1950 and 1970: The Rules of Proof. Under the banner of Reason For Gun Barrel Proofs…

  12. FYI: ANYONE

    Technically all Gun manufactured in the US. are given a Double Load Barrel Test using Special Ammunition ONLY supplied it the Gun Manufacturers. This test is performed with Each gun produced, before distribution to the General Public. The only exception being the 12.7x99mm BHMG, which is given a ~17% Greater than Standard Load. What happens to the Test Bullet is Unclear. Most likely it’s kept as a Proofing Round to Certify that Specific Gun…

    1. @ Don P.

      No. But this is not the first time I have posted this comment. I only found it the first time by happenstance. When I got my first computer, I cruised the web for hours, and from one link to another. Too see where it would take me. I not sure, but I think there’s a YouTube piece about the process…

    2. With all of the stuff I have read about ARs, I definitely wouldn’t believe it without some corroboration from a reputable source. Especially when you consider that most manufacturers specify no reloads to maintain their warranty and that you aren’t supposed to interchange .223 and 5.56 rounds unless you have a barrel built to handle both.

    3. @ Don P..

      That true with many type’s Civilian/Military Ammunition’s. Using your .223/5.56 comparison, the Civilian .233Remington (.224/5.7x45mm) round with an overall length of 57mm. And a SAAMI. barrel pressure rating of 62,366psi. and a CIP. barrel pressure rating of 52,000psi. Compared to the 5.56x45NATO (.224/5.7×44.7mm round with an overall length of 57.4mm. And a SAAMI. barrel pressure rationg of 62,366psi. and a CIP. barrel pressure rating of 55,144psi.

      I think they keep the Test or Proof Bullet, as an Insurance Proof that the barrel is SAFE for use. Nobody want to have a gun Explode in the Hands or Face, and the United States is not the only county that does this. The French started the practive back in the 15th century and England in 1637…

  13. @PeteDub

    “There is no liability under the NFA or any other law when a shipper ships a lawful product like a CNC mill. Are they going to stop shipping strap wrenches now, because a strap wrench theoretically could be used to tighten illegal suppressors onto weapons? Or Torx 65 tools because they can be used to remove muzzle breaks from certain weapons so illegal suppressors can be fitted? No — this definitely is not legal advice.”

    I didn’t say there was any liability to either of the companies; I just stated that perhaps the companies, and/or their lawyers, aren’t sure of the legalities of item or, more importantly for their purposes, what the legalities are of transporting them across state lines.

    “When the 2 major players in a single market both deprive a lawful market participant of access to another market, that is per se evidence of collusion. That’s not enough to win a conviction, but it is enough to force the 2 major players to provide a lawful explanation for their actions. Heck, the Antitrust Division of the DoJ can, and does, block companies from being bought and sold with much less evidence.”

    I think you’re delusional. In order for it to be collusion, there would have to be an intended cooperation between the two companies. Can you prove that? What would be the purpose? If they were both raising their prices to ship the mill, you might have an argument. They are both refusing to ship. There is no logical reason that the two companies would “collude” together and refuse to ship the mills. I was going to say that maybe the boards have anti-gun members, but that would make no sense since FedEx gives a discount to NRA businesses. I can see a legal question and there isn’t anything illegal about refusing to ship for that reason. It’s not as if there aren’t other companies they can use to ship their mills.

    “My hypothetical rise in UPS stock was making fun of what secundius had said. OBVIOUSLY FedEx would not just hand over a ton of business to a major competitor by trashing the entire NRA alliance over a single product. Sorry for allowing you to miss the sarcasm.”

    Sorry you missed the sarcasm in my response. I have enough stock to understand the jokes, I figured you were joking and didn’t think you were stupid enough to actually expect an uptic, even if you had any shares, but I also figured there was a chance I was wrong.

  14. @Don P

    No firearm can be made so its use cannot traced for forensic (In-court) purpose. Certain USES of firearms can make it hard to trace that use to a particular person, even impossible. But the firearm itself can never be made so no use of that firearm can be raced.

    You fail to understand that forensic use of “traced’ is different from gun control use of “tracked.”

  15. @ PeteDub.

    Your suggesting that LCOL. Oliver North acted alone or was ordered by a Rouge Element in the Government to do what he did. If that’s the case, the President Ronald Reagan, was Royal Screwed from Within. Or, just maybe it was a case of “Plausible Deniability”. Which by the way was first coined in 18 June 1948 by your very own President Harry S. Truman. You know, “The Buck Stop’s Here” guy. On his National Security Council Paper’s 10/2…

    1. @secundius

      I’m not “suggesting” anything. I am stating, as a fact, that (a) the courts confirmed that Col. North was not guilty of anything in his actions on behalf of the US; and (b) President Reagan actively rejected demands from within his own party that Reagan use the power of the presidency to protect Col. North.

      There was never any “deniability’_ plausible or otherwise. As Col. North has confirmed on many occasions, he has no reason to deny what he did, being proud of his actions. But, of course, “deniability” is the way an Obama stooge like you would “think.”

      And, FYI, no there is no such rank as “LCOL” in the USMC — that is an Army and Air Force abbreviation. In the USMC tradition, the proper way to refer to the gentleman by rank would have been Lt. Col Oliver North, USMC. But, also according to that tradition, in informal settings we simply refer to the gentleman as “Col. North.”

  16. @PeteDub,

    The old joke has always been: It’s got to be true; I read it on the Internet! My one-up on that joke was always: It’s got to be true; I read it in an email somebody forwarded to me! You have now allowed me to come up with a better one: It’s got to be true, I read it in somebody’s post on a blog!

    “When major organizations like UPS and FedEx unlawfully collude to deprive access to markets…”

    That qualifies as assumption and conjecture… you seem to be pretty fluent with that. It could also qualify as defamation. Yes, FedEx and UPS are both refusing to ship that item, but do you have any proof whatsoever that they colluded in making their decisions? Do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, they, and/or their lawyers, just aren’t sure what the legalities are of that item and don’t want to worry about any legal implications by shipping them… especially when it would involve transporting something that they think might be illegal during interstate commerce?

    Personally, I think your your main complaint with Secundius is that you read his statement of “Effective 25 February 2015, FedEx Advantage has cut ties with the NRA Business Alliance Program” and took it as gospel without verifying it. Which is obvious from your post: “It isn’t that particular product, it is the NRA Business Partner Program.” I’m still waiting for someone to give me a link which shows that statement to be true.

    1. @Don P

      There is no liability under the NFA or any other law when a shipper ships a lawful product like a CNC mill. Are they going to stop shipping strap wrenches now, because a strap wrench theoretically could be used to tighten illegal suppressors onto weapons? Or Torx 65 tools because they can be used to remove muzzle breaks from certain weapons so illegal suppressors can be fitted? No — this definitely is not legal advice.

      When the 2 major players in a single market both deprive a lawful market participant of access to another market, that is per se evidence of collusion. That’s not enough to win a conviction, but it is enough to force the 2 major players to provide a lawful explanation for their actions. Heck, the Antitrust Division of the DoJ can, and does, block companies from being bought and sold with much less evidence.

      My hypothetical rise in UPS stock was making fun of what secundius had said. OBVIOUSLY FedEx would not just hand over a ton of business to a major competitor by trashing the entire NRA alliance over a single product. Sorry for allowing you to miss the sarcasm.

  17. @SS1

    Go re-read –“and /or” — in the case of a shotgun, the CARTRIDGE can be matched to a particular weapon. In rare occasions the pellets can too, but that is very hard to do.

    As to secundius, he may be entertaining but he actively supports the very people — primarily Obama and his stooges — who are trying to take away freedom. He’s clearly never been in a real foxhole. For example, secundius actually opined that nobody has a right to blame Obama for the M855 debacle unless we can come up with something with BHO’s signature on it. And then he tried to justify Obama’s refusal to take responsibility by claiming — falsely — that previous presidents have done so. secundius is a sycophant Obama supporter who has a middling interest in firearms.

  18. @ PeteDub.

    It might actually surprise you, that were actually fighting for the same General Freedoms. It’s the Specifics, where we Differ. Like in all War’s, you never know who you going to share your “Foxhole” with…

  19. @ When Non-Profit becomes Profitable, or just plan Greed?

    I just read an article in WIRED.COM on the GHOST RUNNER. And appears that Ghost Runner went for $1,200.00 USD. to $1,500.00 USD., just in a matter of a couple of days. Is this just a means’ to BUMP UP the PRICE for the product. Or, what…

    1. @secundius

      Wow. That was a serious comment . . . . Wow.

      Just because an organization is not-for-profit does not mean that it does not MAKE profits. It just means that the organization was not formed to DISTRIBUTE profits to shareholders.

      Every organization has to make a profit to survive.

      When major organizations like UPS and FedEx unlawfully collude to deprive access to markets (a federal crime BTW — but we can bet that Obama’s dishonest goons won’t even give it a second thought), one perfectly legitimate way to survive in the short run is to raise prices.

      A company that provides a valuable product for a very important public purpose (defense of freedom against patently unconstitutional attempts to tell us what we can and can’t have to defend ourselves) is struggling to stay alive and keep families fed in the face of illegal, ill-advised, hateful and ignorant political BS that patently violates federal law.

      Yet YOUR response is to whine that the folks struggling to say alive might make a profit. OMG.

      Man, you whined about pretty much exactly the wrong thing from the perspective of freedom and exactly the “right” thing from the perspective of hatred (as if your hatred deserves a perspective at all).

      My goodness you are one thoroughly brainwashed fool. You must have Obama’s hate-filled anti-American talking points tattooed inside your eyelids and playing on a speaker under your pillow while you sleep.

      You truly HATE people who dare to be free as God intended us to be. We know where your loyalties would have been in 1776, and in year 0.

    2. @ PeteDub.

      Sir your entitle to your Opions, and I’m entitled too Mine. That what I like about The Shooter’s Log, the Right to speak my mind. A Sounding Board of Opions. And to the last part of your comment, You don’t know at all, and that where I’m going to leave it. We can talk about a subject if you want, or not. But please allow me to have the Freedom to voice my Opions, after all that what we’re fighting, isn’t it…

    3. @secundius

      Please be very clear on this: I have never instructed you to STFU and don’t intend to do so.

      In fact, I want idiots like you to keep on making complete fools of yourselves so people can see your outright hatred of freedom. So, PLEASE, keep on posting your stupid and hate-driven BS so it can actually do some good when it is pointed out. And maybe, just maybe, rather than just spouting your bigoted and hate-driven “opinions” and “feelings” on issues, you might actually start dealing with those pesky things we call FACTS.

      Let’s be VERY clear — you are NOT on my side as you are NOT fighting for freedom. You are fighting on the side of the hate-mongering bigots who are working actively to destroy freedom.

      You have made it very clear where your loyalties lie now, and where they would have lain in 1776 and year 0 — on the side of those who would destroy the freedom God intends for us to have.

      You have every right to continue to expose how you are fighting against freedom, just as I have every right to point it out. That’s the American way: let Truth be the judge, not a censor.

    4. @PeteDub:

      I seriously believe your assertion about shotguns is false. The pellets expand into random space in the shotgun barrel, and there is no possibility that anyone can look through a microscope and see any traceable grooves on a pellet.

      Regarding your “stupid and hate-driven BS” reference to Secundius, who is my favorite poster on all CTD forums, you are so frickin wrong about him. He has very entertaining and enlightening posts. He keeps all these forums interesting for me, and I’m sure for others too.

      @Secundius: Your foxhole comment is so true my friend. Have a great Sunday!!

      @Everyone: Well the Scottsdale Gun Club sent me a “M855 Green Tip Ammo In-Stock” email this morning, so all you Phoenecians who think these things are golden better run over there. I’m NOT going.

    5. “He has very entertaining and enlightening posts.”

      @SS1

      I’ll have to agree with the “entertaining” part.

  20. @ Don P. and Mc Ruger.

    Up until the Ammoland and The Outdoorhub article, I thought that GHOST RUNNER was a Software Program. And didn’t apply to a specific 3D Printer Mill or CNC Mill Machine. Well there’s also Regular FedEx, DHL, or Private Courier Services. I suspect it was more of an Insurance Issue than a Policy Issue…

    1. McRuger,

      Have you seen any article that confirms in any way shape or form that “FedEx Advantage has cut ties withe the NRA Business Alliance Program” as Secundius and PeteDub have previously stated? The article you listed, as well as all the others I have found, only refer to FedEx, and UPS, refusing to ship this particular item. None of them I have found give any indication that “FedEx Advantage has cut ties withe the NRA Business Alliance Program”.

    2. Just for the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as a gun that may not be traced. Every firearm leaves unique markings on the projectiles and/or cartridges used — yes, even shotguns. Also, it is nearly impossible to use a firearm without leaving DNA and/or fingerprints on the firearm and/or cartridge components. There aren’t a bunch of crimes left unsolved because gun serial numbers are not in a database.

      These “ghost guns” are an issue for Obama not because they cannot be “traced” for legitimate forensic purposes, but because they cannot be easily hunted down and seized for political purposes. There is no real push from the police community for “help” in investigating actual crimes, it is ALL about creating the totalitarian Left’s Holy Grail of a complete national database to seize guns the next time some criminal A$$clown like Ray Nagin decides the Constitution does not matter any more.

      The US Supreme Court has already weighed in on the matter, however, and so has Congress. The Supreme Court has said (in Heller) that the government has a legitimate interest in a gun transaction only if that transaction is “commercial” — private transactions, like manufacturing an AR upper for one’s own personal use, is not within the scope of government power. Congress also spoke on the matter, by only having the NFA cover commercial manufacture as opposed to personal manufacture — we all have the right, if we want, to manufacture our own firearms for our own personal use. Heck, we would be breaking the law to do any personal gunsmithing if that were not the law.

      A license is required under the NFA to manufacture for commercial purposes. Now, ATF thinks we can’t manufacture NFA firearms even for our own lawful personal use without a license (and they won’t issue a license to manufacture for that purpose) — but they should and probably would lose that argument in court.

    3. “Just for the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as a gun that may not be traced. Every firearm leaves unique markings on the projectiles and/or cartridges used — yes, even shotguns. Also, it is nearly impossible to use a firearm without leaving DNA and/or fingerprints on the firearm and/or cartridge components.”

      Exactly what does that clarify and what are you referring to? Typically I have always heard the reference of tracing a gun to mean who manufactured it, who currently owns it and who owned/possessed the gun from the time was originally sold to where it currently is. Like the Justice Department supposedly planned to do during Fast And Furious. If I make a lower with a Ghost Gunner and sell it to some gang-banger for cash… how can it be traced? Markings on the bullet/casing/shell, or anything else dealing with the ballistics experts, have, in my experiences, always been referred to as tracing the bullet (to a gun). In order to trace the bullet to a gun, you have to find the gun to match it with.

      As far as being able to trace the bullet, the authorities can usually determine what type/manufacturer of bullet was used, but that alone doesn’t get them very far. In order to prove a specific gun was the one used, they have to find the gun and match the bullet from the crime scene with a bullet fired from that gun. With an AR, which is the type of firearm in question, the actual firearm is the lower, for legal purposes, since that is the only part that is regulated. The only part of the firearm that leaves a traceable mark on the projectile is the barrel. If you shoot someone, recover the brass or just use a brass catcher, replace the upper (or just the barrel) and destroy the old one, you still have the firearm… but what are the authorities going to trace? A bullet fired from it will not match the crime scene bullet. Better yet, retrieve a fired .223 bullet that, doesn’t have too much deformation, from a commonly used shooting location, put it in a .30 cal sabot, and you can use a .30 cal rifle to fire a bullet that ballistics will trace to a completely different rifle. On the topic of shotguns, if I buy a brand new box of 12Ga 00 Buck, buy five identical pump shotguns, put one shell in each of the five shotguns and shoot each one into a different block of ballistic gelatin… you’re saying that the ballistics guys can pull the pellets out of the gelatin and identify which shotgun was used to shoot which block of gelatin? I think you’ve been watching too much CSI.

      Just for clarity, why did you mention the NFA? Maybe I missed something, but unless you are going to make your AR a machine gun or an SBR, I don’t see how the NFA applies to making your own lower.

    4. @Don P

      I was referring to the headline secundius quoted about “untraceable” guns. The point is that the gun-control version of “traceable” (really “trackable”) has no relationship to the forensic version of “traceable.”

      There are many effective and dead-on forensic ways to match firearms with specific shootings (forensic use) beyond mere rifling striations. I did not even say anything about striations, and I specifically used the DNA and fingerprint examples, so you clearly are not comprehending what you are reading.

      But, to answer your question, if you were to sell a ghost lower to a gang-banger, the criminal use of that lower could be traced to the person who used it in committing a crime, by any number of means having nothing to do with striations or anything else related to the barrel or any other part of the upper. For forensic purposes it really does not matter who built the lower, it matters who used it.

      But gun control freaks are trying to make it matter who built any particular gun, because tracking a gun from the gun control perspective is really a way to ensure that the control freaks can take our guns when they want. Virtually nothing about gun control has anything really to do with actual crime, but instead everything is about being able to confiscate weapons owned by law-abiding citizens.

      And no I said nothing about matching shotgun pellets to a particular shotgun (but that actually can be done in rare circumstances). That’s why I said “and / or” before “cartridges” — CARTRIDGES can be matched even though we all know shotgun pellets almost never can be. In the example you gave, each of the 5 used shells will have different markings from the 5 different chambers (and yet another set of unique markings from extractors if applicable), and each cartridge can thus be matched to each shotgun that was used to shoot it. This is kindergarten stuff for forensic scientists. Rifling striations were just the beginning of this branch of science.

      The NFA applies to the CNC mill issue because it is not legal under the NFA to manufacture any firearm or part thereof of any kind for commercial sale, without a manufacturing license under the NFA. I never said the NFA applies to making YOUR OWN lower for personal use as you claim. That’s why they label the CNC mill as a “personal” tool in the first place — to make it clear they are not promoting use of the CNC mill for producing lowers for commercial sale.

      This whole “ghost gun” issue is really about the fact that people with the gun control / confiscation mindset are REALLY, REALLY angry that modern technology has created a way around the NFA stranglehold on them being able to track down and confiscate personal firearms. The NFA manufacturing license is the core of that whole issue. A ghost gun cannot be tracked down to be confiscated, and that angers the people who think guns are a problem. It has nothing to do with using forensic science to solve crimes.

      Man, you must really TRY to misread, you do it so thoroughly and so often.

    5. @ PeteDub.

      Please point out to me where I specially mentioned UNTRACEABLE GUNS or even IMPLIED the MEANING OF UNTRACEABLE. Because I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

      And as far a the President’s, are you saying those events DIDN’T HAPPEN…

    6. @secundius

      You must truly be unable to read and comprehend. So, let’s play that stupid game — show ME where I ever said you said any of those things. You can’t, of course, because I clearly referred to the headline you quoted and never said you said any such thing.

      As to the presidents, same game: show me where I said that none of those events happened. Again you can’t, or course, because I said no such thing.

      What I DID say, and what is absolutely true, is that no president before the lying scumbag presently occupying the White House, has ever tried to disavow responsibility for alleged wrongdoing by underlings in the executive branch by claiming that he has no control over what they do. And, no president has ever used “executive privilege” as Obama has tried in order to prevent the alleged criminal wrongdoing of those working for him from being pursued as such.

      In fact, in direct contrast to Obama’s weakling cowardly efforts to deny responsibility, Nixon showed EXTREMELY HIGH personal responsibility by RESIGNING in order to save the US from the damaging political fallout from the criminal behavior of others who actually spent a long time in jail for what they did (and who actually did not even work for Nixon, they were private contractors who Nixon did not control in any way).

      As to Iran-Contra, you apparently were living in a deep cavern separated from civilization at the time, and thus failed to learn the “tiny” details that Col. North was cleared of any wrongdoing and that Reagan had specifically rejected widespread demands from Republicans that Reagan use the power of the presidency to stop the patently dishonest prosecution of Col. North. Reagan let the judicial process work, and the judicial process cleared Col. North of wrongdoing. That’s both personal responsibility and faith in The American Way, wrapped up in a neat package. Obama is such a dishonest scumbag he has done the direct opposite.

      But thanks again fro proving that you are an Obama sycophant. Dig your own foxhole, rather than telling me that I “owe it to you” to allow you to bring your Obama-stooge garbage to pollute the one I dug.

    7. @PeteDub
      “I was referring to the headline secundius quoted about “untraceable” guns. The point is that the gun-control version of “traceable” (really “trackable”) has no relationship to the forensic version of “traceable.””

      Trackable or traceable, according to Websters the two words are synonymous.

      “There are many effective and dead-on forensic ways to match firearms with specific shootings (forensic use) beyond mere rifling striations. I did not even say anything about striations, and I specifically used the DNA and fingerprint examples, so you clearly are not comprehending what you are reading.”

      Coming from you, any comment of reading comprehension is really rich. I fully comprehended what you wrote, but there is the question of terminology and usage. The standard meaning of whether or not a firearm is traceable (or trackable), and what the conversation was currently about, is tracing the firearm by a means that is specific to its being a firearm. Yes, if the criminal leaves a fingerprint or DNA on the firearm they can be traced. But in those situations you are not really “tracing the firearm”, you are actually tracing the fingerprint or DNA. I was talking about tracing the firearm and not the fingerprint or DNA that might have been left.

      Your post started out with a blanket statement:
      “Just for the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as a gun that may not be traced.”

      That is just plain wrong. To clarify ”wrong”, I mean that it’s incorrect. There CAN be instances where a firearm can be untraceable. Your examples rely on the assumption that the criminal leaves shell casings or the firearm at the scene. If the criminal leaves the firearm and has his name and address engraved on the firearm it would be real easy for the police to find him, but that also wouldn’t be using the standard definition of tracing the firearm, which is what we were talking about.

      This is from the ATF website:
      “Firearms tracing begins when a law enforcement agency discovers a firearm at a crime scene and seeks to learn the origin or background of that firearm in order to develop investigative leads. Tracing is a systematic process of tracking the movement of a firearm from its manufacture or from its introduction into U.S. commerce by the importer through the distribution chain, i.e., wholesaler/retailer to the first retail purchaser.”

      “And no I said nothing about matching shotgun pellets to a particular shotgun (but that actually can be done in rare circumstances). That’s why I said “and / or” before “cartridges” — CARTRIDGES can be matched even though we all know shotgun pellets almost never can be. In the example you gave, each of the 5 used shells will have different markings from the 5 different chambers (and yet another set of unique markings from extractors if applicable), and each cartridge can thus be matched to each shotgun that was used to shoot it. This is kindergarten stuff for forensic scientists. Rifling striations were just the beginning of this branch of science.”

      Yes, but that’s assuming the person leaves the cartridges. Anything can be tracked/traced if you get enough information, but if the criminal leaves nothing to trace, there IS such a thing as an untraceable firearm. In my example I didn’t say, and didn’t mean to imply, that the investigation team would know which shell casing went with which block of gelatin. That is why I specified pump shotguns and didn’t specify cycling them after shooting them. In the example I gave, there is no way to determine which shotgun was used to shoot which block of gelatin. That makes your blanket statement incorrect.

      “The NFA applies to the CNC mill issue because it is not legal under the NFA to manufacture any firearm or part thereof of any kind for commercial sale, without a manufacturing license under the NFA. I never said the NFA applies to making YOUR OWN lower for personal use as you claim. That’s why they label the CNC mill as a “personal” tool in the first place — to make it clear they are not promoting use of the CNC mill for producing lowers for commercial sale.”

      OK, here we are back to “you clearly are not comprehending what you are reading” and why I said that your use of that statement was “really rich”. My ONLY statement to you about the NFA was:

      “Just for clarity, why did you mention the NFA? Maybe I missed something, but unless you are going to make your AR a machine gun or an SBR, I don’t see how the NFA applies to making your own lower.”

      I’ll break it down, and I’ll try to type slowly for you.

      “Just for clarity, why did you mention the NFA?”
      In this sentence I was asking you for clarity. Since I have not read the entire NFA, I was wondering why you mentioned it.

      “Maybe I missed something, but unless you are going to make your AR a machine gun or an SBR, I don’t see how the NFA applies to making your own lower.”
      In this sentence I was merely stating that I didn’t understand how the NFA applied to making a lower for your own use unless you are going to make a machinegun or SBR, since it is my understanding that the NFA wouldn’t apply otherwise.

      I will admit that you “never said the NFA applies to making YOUR OWN lower for personal use”. Not a problem. Can you show me where I claimed that you said it applied? No, you can’t. That’s because I didn’t say that. Again you accused me of making a statement that I never made. Seems to be a habit of yours. Are you sure you’re not a Democrat?

      “Man, you must really TRY to misread, you do it so thoroughly and so often.”

      Again, coming from you that’s really rich.

  21. This is just a part of his destroy America plan it starts here but his goal is to disarm us so it will be easier for ISLAM to rule. The president is a illegal Muslim and a member of the Muslim brotherhood with but one goal and that is the destruction of America and Israel for Islam. Once you understand that then all his actions or inaction’s and policies make perfect sense. He is using the week minded progressive liberals to help is Islamist goals.

  22. @ ATTN: TO ALL

    Effective 25 February 2015, FedEx Advantage has cut ties withe the NRA Business Alliance Program. So any of you that were thinking of purchasing GHOST GUNNER 3D Personal CNC Mill’s from Cody Wilson of Desfense Distributed. Better start looking for other shipping companies, for your shipping needs.

    Ghost Gunner 3D CNC Mill’s can produce ~80% of AR-15 Lower Receivers…

    1. If you Google Defense Distributed, there is an article listed which states that both FedEx -AND- UPS are refusing to ship the GHOST GUNNER. So much for your big UPS stock uptick.

    2. @Secondius

      Do you have a link to that story? I did a Google search and all I could find were stories about the Ghost Gunner not being able to get shipped. I could find nothing indicating that FedEx was dropping the NRA Business Alliance as a whole. (Unless you want to count the petition trying to get FedEx Advantage to drop the NRA Business Alliance.) Nothing against you, but I’ve read too many posts by people who misread something and then make comments that have no basis in reality.

    3. @ Don P.

      No, actually I subscribe to both Ammoland Shoot Sport News Daily Digest and The Outdoorhub. Ammoland, 2/25/2015 edition came in first and then came The OutdoodHub, 2/26/2015 edition…

  23. President Theodore Roosevelt once said, “TO AGREE WITH THE PRESIDENT, RIGHT OR WRONG, IS NOT ONLY SERVILE AND INANE BUT MORALLY TREASONABLE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.”
    Immorality and treason seem to abound in the District of Columbia.

  24. @ JoeE.

    So what’s stopping you? Feet frozen to ground?? What are you, A LEADER or a Camp Follower??? ALL TALK here, but NO ACTION???? You guy’s are a JOKE!!!!!

  25. Its time to wake up & TAKE THE POWER BACK AMERICA! Everyday we allow political officials to further infringe upon our rights. We no longer live under the protection of our Bill of Rights that once helped shape the greatest place to live. Is it any wonder so many extremists groups target us for violence when we try to police the world according to our laws. Hopefully enough people will join together & force our elected officials to do the job we pay them to do… protect our rights & work to better our country. Close the borders, keep our money here. & better the quality of live for our citizens.

    1. If the government was overthrown by the people on this forum, would it be called The Confederacy?

  26. I have read some of the posts here and like the sig story, as an idiot reading the story here , i think i have seen the bigger picture. As i read it the 223 has a lead core, not illegal, but still banned they are having issues banning the mag capacity of guns so they make a legal bullet illegal .Now THEY have THE POWER TO BAN any bullet they want making all other arguments a mute point.They let you have your gun but no legal ammo to fire through it as the article states the law : from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium.” since we are getting away from lead any core that has anyone of these materials as a filler is illegal or if the dip process melts into the core to adhere buy buy bullets lets think big picture here.They tried to ban bullets in new jersey back a few years ago the vague writing of the bill would make it illegal to shoot paint balls. This could turn into a nasty little piece of legislature. But im just another guy reading between the lines

  27. Hey people, how about Ruby Ridge, Waco, Fast and Furious I can name other’s that never made nation news. These horse crap little charges that stayed in the local news where good people were destroyed by the BATFE. Not a single agent has ever had to account for their lying ass ways. With holder and obama behind them they can do or try anything they want.

    It’s a shame they have destroyed the reputation of the great federal lawmen who was ahead of them.

    1. Actually, the OKC bombing site was at least partially selected due to some agents working there that had been involved in WACO.

  28. It was my understanding that “armor piercing ammunition” violates the Geneva Convention. So if the standard NATO round is classified as such, then where do we stand?

    1. @ M. Call.

      Apparently the Geneva is one of “Fit-Your-Needs” Documents, instead of a “One Size Fits All” Documents. The United States of America, ratified the Geneva Convention in 1955. And Last Revised it in 2007. We (the USA) are a GC I through IV and Part III, signatory.

  29. B.O. Stinks. Her is just another gay Kenyan who wants to be a commie and take us with him. He won’t take away our GOD given rights if real Americans who love our country will stand up and quit putting up with his BS.

  30. This ban will undoubtedly also lead to a ban on inexpensive practice ammo for the .223 rifles.Some of the other commonly available .223 ammo such as the bulk packaged ammo at WalMart uses copper washed steel jackets in the projectiles.This can be easily verified with a magnet.Tungsten alloys,steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium cannot be legally used in HANDGUN projectiles in the USA.All ATF has to do is announce that .223 is a handgun round!

    1. @davestewart

      That’s what this is all about — the ATF already HAS announced that M855 green tip is a handgun round. And the Attorney General saying that the all the previous Attorneys General have been wrong for decades to say that M855 is for “sporting use.” These guys know better than all the previous ATF experts and all the previous Attorneys General because, well, they just disagree with them. The current crowd at the ATF just does not like the truth, so they have made up their own “facts.”

    1. White House petition… HA! That’ll probably do as much as starting one of those hashtag things like the one to bring back the Nigerian girls. A White House petition didn’t do anything for the Marine who was locked up in Mexico because he took a wrong turn.

  31. Every day it is something. I am a citizen who has no criminal record (like most of us) and I do take exception to Obama trying to regulate what guns I have to protect myself and/or the ammunition I have for them. What is this guy trying to do besides start a dang war again right here in the states? We all have the right to protect our homes, our families and ourselves. He is so busy trying to “talk” to Islamic extremists that he wants to make it so that if we are entered and I am sure we have already been “entered” that we would have no way to protect ourselves. I am of the belief that he has finally lost his marbles (psych) He allows our military to be killed, our women and other civillians to be beheaded and he does NOTHING. The only way to fix this problem is to eradicate this devils. He does nothing but aggravate US citizens. Haven’t we paid enough?
    We Americans better wake up and smell the Cumin………..life is about to change very radically if we don’t stand strong!

    1. @ Cindy.

      As a Veteran, and former Soldier. What incentive is there for me to stick my neck out and possibly get killed to fight ISIS, when Congress WON’T or REFUSES to support me in War and in the VA Hospital when I get Home. Congress, ABSOLUTELY LOVE’s Photo Op’s with Veterans, but that’s as far as it goes. You know a Photograph of Me and Rep. Paul Ryan gets me at 7-Eleven, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

  32. JUST MY OPINION AND ONLY MY OPINION—I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT nomama SAYS,LAWS HE PASSES I REFUSE TO FOLLOW ANYTHING THAT IDIOT DOES OR TRIES TO MAKE US DO….. HOLD THE LINE AMERICA PISS ON nobama

    1. RIGHT ON Brother Carl, And it is not only your opinion! I feel exactly the same way, as I am sure most real Americans do!!! Lets all stand up, be counted as real Americans, hold your middle fingers high, and tell Obama Bin Laden to kiss us all where it smells the worst!!! And I’m not talking about the Houston ship channel.

  33. I am not a fan of the last 7 years of government at all. Bring unemployed makes it rough to be able to buy shells, or do much of anything extra. I hope to be able to defeat against the ban. Thanks a lot.

  34. one last comment – i would bet there are more americans killed by drunk drivers than M855 5.56 green tips so should not the atf ban alcohol? I guess that was tried and didn’t work. That approach just lead to more crime.

  35. food for thought- if the atf is so concerned about the health of law enforcement with regards to the sig brace and short barrel issue – why in the hell have they not banned tobacco that causes billions of dollars in health care costs annually not to mention all of those americans that have developed lung cancer and died as a result of tobacco use?

    1. Slowpoke,

      Microstamping is currently (as far as I could find) only a law in the United Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia and is currently being challenged in the courts.. There is no talking logic to the government there, nor the morons who vote them into office.

      H.R. 5266 is currently a bill to reauthorize the national estuary, which does not concern me. The H.R. 5266 you are referring to died, don’t expect a similar

    2. @ Don P.

      Are you 100% sure about that Sir? From The Library of Congress – Thomas. Try Bill Text 110th Congress (2007-2008) S.2605.IS section 923 title 18. Ratified and amended on January 1, 2010.

    3. @Slowpoke

      Yes, 100% sure. According to govtrack.us, both were introduced on Feb 7, 2008 and both died in congress. Xavier Becerra submitted it in the House and Edward Kennedy submitted it in the Senate.

      More people have been killed by Senator Kennedy with his car than by any of my guns.

    4. @ Don P.

      Really, then tell me WHY, with the exception of S&W are gun manufacturers in increasing numbers “Micro-Stamping Firing Pins” for now at this time. With the looming possibilities of more Micro-Stamping on the Horizon.

    5. Slowpoke,

      Did you read… and comprehend… my posts? As the radiomen I knew in the Navy would say… I’ll say again for possible penetration… and I’ll also type slower just for you.

      You made a post about microstamping and H.R. 5266.

      My first response was:
      “Microstamping is currently (as far as I could find) only a law in the United Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia and is currently being challenged in the courts.. There is no talking logic to the government there, nor the morons who vote them into office.
      H.R. 5266 is currently a bill to reauthorize the national estuary, which does not concern me. The H.R. 5266 you are referring to died, don’t expect a similar”

      My post was supposed to finish with… The H.R. 5266 you are referring to died, don’t expect a similar bill to pass in the current Congress either.

      I still stand by that statement.

      You then asked about S. 2605:
      “Are you 100% sure about that Sir? From The Library of Congress – Thomas. Try Bill Text 110th Congress (2007-2008) S.2605.IS section 923 title 18. Ratified and amended on January 1, 2010.”

      My response was:
      “Yes, 100% sure. According to govtrack.us, both were introduced on Feb 7, 2008 and both died in congress. Xavier Becerra submitted it in the House and Edward Kennedy submitted it in the Senate.”

      OK Slowpoke, I read the text of the S. 2605 at: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.2605: What about it? Yes, the last line of the Senate bill was “(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect on January 1, 2010.” That, however, is just the wording of the bill as it was submitted… not the final resolution of the submitted bill. It says nothing about “ratified and amended”, as you stated, on that page or any other that I could find. If you click on the “bill summary & status” link, it takes you to http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SN02605:@@@L&summ2=m& . On that page, it has a section titled “MAJOR ACTIONS” which lists “***NONE***”. Had the bill been pass, it would have had a list of actions such as “passed in Senate”, “passed in House”, “signed by President” and “Became Public Law” amongst a few others. Another way you can verify the situation would be to Google “Section 923 of title 18, United States Code” which is where the law would have been amended by this bill had it been passed. If you had done that, you would have found at http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title18/html/USCODE-2010-title18-partI-chap44-sec923.htm , which is the 2010 edition on the Government Printing Office’s website, that section 923 does not have an “(m)” subsection and was last amended in 2002. I know the government is slow, but the code would have been amended prior to 2010 had a bill from the 110th Congress been passed.

      Had you checked govtrack.us, as I had suggested, at https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/s2605 it gives the status in words that you can probably understand. Their webpages for both bills read:
      “Died in a previous Congress
      This bill was introduced on February 7, 2008, in a previous session of Congress, but was not enacted.”

      You want me to tell you why “…with the exception of S&W are gun manufacturers in increasing numbers “Micro-Stamping Firing Pins” for now at this time.”?
      Maybe those manufacturers want to be able to sell their firearms in Kalifornia… since microstamps are required there by state law. Yes, really!!!

      Any more questions?

  36. MUST READ – TO THE END:

    After news broke of the 5.56 855 ammo ban, I spent this past week suspiciously pondering exactly why this issue is suddenly an ATF priority.

    Even field agents I’ve talked to haven’t a clue and claim it’s an arbitrary maneuver hatched deep from within the bowels of their parent’s legal department – the DOJ, and in collaboration with the ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB).

    Let’s keep in mind that even the ATF’s recent formal opinion which announced the ban explicitly states the determination was based on information solicited and closed way back in 2012. So again I asked myself why all of a sudden ban this specific ammo now?

    Interestingly enough the ban comes immediately on the heels of a highly humiliating moment for the ATF in which SIG poked the ATF in the eye and created controversy by acquiring and marketing their one armed SIG Brace.

    Anyone that knows a thing about the delicate balance which turns a legal firearm into a felony with a simple hacksaw also knows that such a brace would be seen as highly controversial to the ATF.

    As such, the SIG Brace’s mere push to the masses by SIG was seen by the ATF as a public legal slam which challenged their authority in an interesting way. It was so well thought out by SIG’s legal staff that the ATF couldn’t lawfully stop it. SIG’s actions were viewed as defiant by Obama’s ATF.

    Subsequent to this, the ATF was forced to contend with individual responses to supposed inquiries about the legality of the brace which eventually culminated in a formal open opinion released in January 2015.

    To the ATF’s embarrassment, their open ruling seemed to contradict statements made in those individual opinions released earlier, yet the ATF still had to concede the SIG Brace to be legal, but with one stipulation… If you place the SIG Brace against your shoulder to fire the gun, this is considered a “redesign” of the firearm and without an NFA tax stamp will be grounds for prosecution.

    At the ATF’s own expense, their decision became the laughing stock of the gun community; especially given the ATF’s new found power to create, regulate, and prosecute illegal shooting stances. Aside from a plethora of humiliating public feedback on their overreaching decision, SIG openly announced they’d again legally take the ATF to the woodshed for a spanking on the issue.

    All of this erupted in January 2015 and only a month later the ATF suddenly bans ammo that could be fired from the same weapon the SIG Brace was designed to support. What a nasty-nasty world we live in when our government plays such games just because some egos were bruised.

    Now for worse news: Despite Cheaper Than Dirt’s noble efforts to rally the troops, the banning of this ammo has already been decided and is in effect. The ATF’s solicitation deadline is only asking for comment on how best to implement the ban, not revoke it. Quote:

    “ATF is specifically soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety.”

    It still would not hurt to continue the barrage of complaints and contact Congress to ensure the “Will of the People” is known for future legislative reversal efforts.

    1. @G-Man

      Sadly, I can believe that — having dealt with government lawyers professionally for a long time. Idiots and weaklings in positions of authority always resort to bullying when they are beaten fairly and squarely.

      They are not very good lawyers, because their argument is easily torn apart. The ATF will be torn to shreds when this reaches federal court — and the end result will be that the ENTIRE ban on armor-piercing ammunition will be struck down as unconstitutionally over-broad.

      Nobody really wants that result, but that is what the ATF has put at risk through stupidity and cowardly behavior. Congress probably won’t have any say in the matter, until the courts have acted and it is time to enact a law that can pass constitutional muster.

    1. Although I do appreciate you answer. I respectfully tell you that you are wrong. The tea party is not by any means what I would hope they would be but in my experience they certainly do not dictate thinking.
      I will agree that I find the organization a disappointment because they have the opportunity to develop a meaningful movement. Instead they ask for money and post news letters.

  37. @ FYI.

    I’ve been a Republican for 30-years before the Tea Party Republicans came along. And still am, so if any organization has to wear the title RINO. It’s the Tea Party Republicans…

    1. Secundius

      I hope that makes sense to someone…. I would still like to know what make a tea party member a stooge. Perhaps it just because of your love the Occupy Movement.

    2. OK I see thanks. So everyone that is involved with the tea party is just being told what to think. That sounds to me like the Obama minions, you know the socialist sheep. Well ok. Are there any other organization should stay away from? I think it’s safe to assume you’re ok with, organizations like Progressive Democrats, Socialist Party, Occupy Movement, Dumbasses for Obama. Idiots for Hilary, Governors for Gun Control and Shills for Soros.

    3. ” Because somebody else does your Thinking and Blindly follow the Tea Party Decision Line, without the use of Independent Thought Process…”

      Secundius

      Your statement is completely asinine, and was obviously made “without the use of independent thought”. The same statement could, with just as much justification, also be said about any other group, organization or business, whether or not a political group, where there are a significant number of people in the group. There are usually decisions made in any large group that not all of the members are going to agree on. Such is the same in our government as a whole. I’m sure that you don’t agree with all of the rules our government makes, are you planning to leave and join another? I don’t claim to be a Tea Party member, but I do have conservative political beliefs. The only time I can remember voting against someone on the Republican side of the ticket was years ago when live in Kansas and I voted for Reagan and against Dole. From what I have seen of the of the decisions made by the Tea Party, I disagree with them less than I do with the decisions made by the Republican Party leaders. I sometimes don’t understand how Boehner can walk since too often he appears to have no backbone.

    1. Oh please tell us Secundius. What makes a Tea Party member a Stooge? Is that just your assessment or is that straight from Msnbc?

  38. How about Iran-Contra, under Ronald Reagan that’s a biggie. Watergate, Richard Nixon, secret funding of the Vietnamese under Dwight D. Eisenhower, Lend-Lease with Roosevelt…

    1. @Secundius

      None of those examples involved Presidents denying responsibility for what their underlings did, as Obama has denied responsibility for what he hired Lois Lerner to do.

      If you had checked your facts for the first time in your life before spouting BS, you would have seen that in those cases involving alleged criminal wrongdoing, there were prosecutions of underlings who went rogue.

      G. Gordon Liddy, for example, spent a long time in prison for what he did — precisely because he had taken it upon himself to engage in illegal activity. He said then, and he will tell you today, that he made a mistake for which he paid a very dear price. THAT is how honorable people face their mistakes.

      In contrast, Lerner did not go rogue. She did what she was hired to do (after she had already demonstrated those “skills” in another position).

      Also in contrast, Obama not only denied responsibility for what he hired Lerner to do, he extended “executive privilege” to shield Lerner from prosecution in order to hide his own direct involvement as the guy who hired her to do what she did.

      If Obama is not your hero, why are you being such a sycophant to defend him on everything — even on things he has already admitted were wrong but you won’t?

      And there is nobody on the face of the planet who uses “Tea Party” and “stooge” in the same sentence who is NOT an Obama-brainwashed sycophant. You suck down Obama’s anti-American talking points and spit them out, and then in the very same sentence you expect us to accept your pansy effort to distance yourself from him. Pathetic. You have no personal honor, just like the scumbag Obama you support like a sniveling sycophant.

    1. @Secundius

      You can “think” that — but that does not make it true. But your willingness to “defend” Obama with such a ridiculous statement represents just another lowering of the standards of accountability for which your hero Obama is already infamous and will become solidly despised in history.

      Until Lois Lerner’s name became a household joke (along with Barack Hussein Obama), no President in history had EVER used the excuse that he was not responsible for what was going on in his administration because he could not control the people he hired.

      I defy you to cite ANY example of an equivalent disavowal of responsibility by any previous President. Don’t waste too much effort trying to meet that challenge, though, because you and I both already know it cannot be met.

  39. @ Don P.

    I believe that the Republic of China (Taiwan) should get TOTAL Independent Nation status and be Officially Recognized as an Independent Country by the United States. In spite of the People Republic of China’s objections. But unfortunately neither the Obama Administration or Congress what to do anything about it, or even address the issue.

    As far a the 2nd Amendment, it is One Juggling Ball amongst 27 Juggling Balls. You either Juggle them evenly, or the All come Crashing to the Ground…

  40. The post was not about the date our nation was founded.I should have said colonists to be more precise. Rather, an example as to one of the origins of the 2nd Amendment that was ratified in 1791 and the dangers of a big government impinging upon the rights of its citizenry.

  41. The British in 1774 imposed an import ban on firearms and gun powder on the American colonists. In 1774-75 the British started confiscating firearms and gunpowder from the American colonists. Seems we really don’t learn much from history or maybe the atf works for a foreign group trying to destroy our way of life. Anybody know of any groups who wants to kill westerns?

    1. @ tmw.

      The United States of America, wasn’t officially a New Nation until 3 September 1783. In 1774 we were STILL the Royal American Colonies, and we were still British Citizens. So my question to you is, what your point…

    2. @Secundius

      I will defer to tmw as to what his point was, but the message I took away from his post was that history has shown for a very long time that it is a bad and dangerous step for a government to try to disarm law-abiding citizens (in disregard of the Magna Carta – by which King George was then bound just as Obama is now bound by the 2nd Amendment), and that governments who do stupid and illegal things like that certainly are not acting in the best interest of the People.

      As to the history lesson, I think the vast majority would agree with me that the United States of America “officially” began its existence as a separate nation with the execution of the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776 in the Continental Congress. That event created a new government and nation. From that key point forward, we passed laws and did all of the other things nations do, separately from the crown.

      The signing of the Treaty of Paris in 1783 simply ended hostilities between the US and England. To label that event as the”official” beginning of the US ignores the fact that we had already “officially” declared our independence in 1776 and executed the Articles of Confederation the next year 1777 as our first Constitution.

    3. @ PeteDub.

      But even the Magna Carta, gave the British Parliament the sole authority of Arming Citizens. The Colonial States of America, may have declared independence in 7 July 1776. But NO OTHER nation on Earth recognize it claim as a Independent nation until 3 September 1783, even France didn’t do so. And the incident that “tmw” is pointing out, took place 2-years before 1776. So the question is holds, WHAT YOUR POINT.

    4. @Secundius

      False. The Magna Carta did not reserve the right to keep and bear arms to the Parliament — that was a right of the people from the very beginning of the Magna Carta process. Indeed, in Section 61 the Magna Carta under John I, the Magna Carta specifically reserved the right of the “barons” to have the serfs take up those arms against the crown, to force the crown to obey the Magna Carta. You are just making up stuff, claiming that the Magna Carta reserved the Peoples’ right to Parliament.

      Everyone involved at the time, specifically including King George’s senior officers here in the colonies, was well aware and many of them quite upset that the orders to disarm the colonists were in violation of the Magna Carta. The fact that the order was so clearly illegal was what made it so upsetting to the colonists, and what secured the colonists’ overwhelming willingness to defy the illegal order.

      King George’s “Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ’em all in” effort failed in large part because many of the British officers were so upset that they only obeyed to the extent necessary to save their own skins. Not even the most zealous British soldiers were mindless robots who would blindly follow an illegal order that stood eons of history and law on their head.

      I stand by my recitation of history of the founding of the United States. If you want to go out and shoot fireworks by yourself on September 3, to celebrate Independence Day, you are quite welcome — but you will be just as alone as you are wrong. It does not matter when France or anyone else supposedly “recognized” our government, the indisputable FACT is that our government and nation were established on July 4, 1776.

      At any rate, the fact is that France officially recognized the existence of the US as a separate nation during the Revolutionary War. Otherwise, France’s assistance to our war effort would have violated international law prohibiting nations from meddling in the internal affairs of other nations. Ben Franklin had a lot of discussions in Paris over that very issue.

      And, speaking further of France, are you now demanding that France take the Statue of Liberty back, in order to mark out July 4, 1776 on the tablet in her left hand, and replace that date with September 3, 1783? Do you think France got that wrong, too, when they made that gift to us?

      I think you are trying to row your “the US did not exist until September 3, 1783” boat upstream against a very strong current of historical facts, and very much alone without even a paddle. Look out for the rocks downstream.

    5. @ PeteDub.

      A person caught in 1774 with the possession of a Firearm or Storing Gunpowder, still would have been tried by British Rule and Hanged. You keep referring to the 2nd Amendment with the Magna Carta, and Obama is not following is. Some how you forgot that there are 26 other Amendments as well, that he is bound too also. The 2nd Amendment wasn’t drafted and ratified by Congress until 19 December 1791. Again your logic doesn’t HOLD…

    6. @Secundius

      Here is my statement, and the logic therein certainly does “hold” notwithstanding your attempt to prevaricate and mislead:

      “. . . history has shown for a very long time that it is a bad and dangerous step for a government to try to disarm law-abiding citizens (in disregard of the Magna Carta – by which King George was then bound just as Obama is now bound by the 2nd Amendment), and that governments who do stupid and illegal things like that certainly are not acting in the best interest of the People.”

      There are no Amendments in conflict with the 2nd Amendment, so your claim that Obama is somehow justified in violating the 2nd Amendment, because he has other Amendments to obey, is just plain dishonest and stupid.

      It does not matter WHEN or even IF the 2nd Amendment was ratified (BTW, the STATES ratify Amendments, not Congress as you stated erroneously). As the US Supreme Court has made abundantly clear, the 2nd Amendment merely guarantees basic human rights that existed long before the US was even a twinkle in the Founders’ eyes. Even if the 2nd Amendment had never been adopted, we would still have those basic human rights would under our well-established jurisprudence — because they are “fundamental” rights recognized by civilized societies throughout history. The Magna Carta serves as compelling evidence that civilized societies beyond our own have recognized those rights. Read the Heller opinion.

      So, regardless of when the 2nd Amendment was ratified, the colonists had the basic human right to keep and bear arms (RTKBA) when King George violated his own constitutional heritage (the Magna Carta) by ordering his troops to take away the colonists’ arms. That is not even subject to any degree of honest dispute. Heck, even King George knew that — and so did his officers.

      Because the RTKBA is “fundamental,” in our jurisprudence any law that might limit the RTKBA in any way must meet the “strict scrutiny” standard — the toughest standard in constitutional law. In order to pass strict scrutiny, the law must protect a legitimate government interest AND the law must be the least restrictive way possible to protect that interest.

      Not one of Obama’s stupid GunGrabNazi proposals comes even close to meeting the strict scrutiny standard. Specifically, for example, the Obama administration basically admits from the get-go that is acting illegally by trying to ban green tip under the “sporting use” standard. The government clearly has no legitimate interest in restricting ammo to “sporting use” because self-defense and the Peoples’ role as the militia in protecting “the security of the state” are constitutionally protected uses of the RTKBA (under the Heller and Miller cases, respectively). The mere fact that so many Americans have concluded that green tip is an effective round gives that round constitutional protection under the Miller “in common use at the time” standard.

      Interestingly, the Miller court did not invent the phrase “in common use at the time” — that phrase was used in he Militia Acts, which required all able-bodied adult males to keep and bear MILITARY arms of types “in common use at the time” so the People could be effective in defending “the security of the state” as that phrase is used in the 2nd Amendment. As the Miller court’s use of “in common use at the time” makes clear, any arms (including ammo types) are constitutionally protected so long as the People have accepted them (through common use) as suitable for any lawful purpose, specifically including the lawful purpose of defending “the security of the state” as that phrase is used in the 2nd Amendment. Green tip ammo is constitutionally protected precisely because it IS an effective round, so Obama’s “justifications” in trying to ban it actually prove the legal basis for the round’s constitutional protection.

    7. @ PeterDub.

      The 27 Amendments, also apply to Congress and the Judiciary Branch of the Government. And just exactly, who has Obama personally DISARMED…

    8. @Secundius,

      Obama is trying to disarm everyone who owns an AR-15 or Mini-14, and any other firearm that shoots the green tip round he is trying to ban.

      That round does not even arguably meet the legal definition of “armor piercing” because it is made of lead with a steel core. That round is not in fact “armor piercing” because, well, it does not pierce armor. Heck, except for low-quality body armor that only a fool would rely on, green tip does not even pierce BODY armor.

      But, despite these facts, which are beyond honest dispute, Obama is trying to go after the green tip round in order to disarm us, because he knows we will pound his pansy rear end into submission, again, if he tries to go after the weapons themselves.

      Obama also is trying to disarm anyone who uses a removable-magazine-fed weapon, by preventing us from having the magazine capacity we need in order to defend ourselves effectively.

      For example, it is well established that it requires 2 HITS from a common .223 Win / 5.56 NATO round to incapacitate an attacker, on average. For the TRAINED FBI agents, former Green Beret and former Marine involved in the 1986 Miami shootout, only about 6% of the rounds fired were incapacitating HITS — and that is professionally TRAINED shooters. That 6% HIT rate is similar to what other professionally trained shooters demonstrate under similar attack scenarios.

      Even assuming that a law-abiding civilian could achieve the 6% HIT rate of those TRAINED professional shooters, while under attack and fighting to live, by the operation of basic mathematics the expected number of HITS from a standard-capacity 30-round AR-15 magazine would be 1.8 hits (30 x 6% = 1.8) — possibly enough to stop a SINGLE attacker at MOST.

      So, the flippant suggestion that nobody “needs” a standard-capacity 30-round magazine is unquestionably wrong as a simple matter of indisputable mathematics. Based on the math, which is simple enough that even a left-winger can do the calculations, we actually NEED at least one standard-capacity 30-round mag for EVERY ATTACKER we might face, just to have a chance of stopping them. (Or else Obama needs to figure out how we law-abiding civilians can get better training than FBI agents, Green Berets and Marines get, so we can achieve a HIT rate of better than 6% when fighting for our lives against about 20,000 fatal attacks that violent criminals are known to commit every year.)

      Those are the facts, and they are beyond honest dispute. Go ahead and try to lie your way out of it.

    9. @ PeterDub.

      So your saying, you have or know of actual Physical Documentation with President Barack Obama name an signature proving this…

      Also I gather you don’t read The Marine Corps Times, buy the M855 ammunition is being replaced with a better performing Mk. 318 Mod. 0 5.56x45mm/NATO w/a muzzle velocity of 2,925-ft./sec form a 14-inch barrel. and the Mk. 319 Mod. 0, 7.62x51mm/NATO ammunition…

    10. @Secundius

      So, are you seriously suggesting that Obama, as the President, is NOT in charge of the Executive department officials who are trying to engage in illegal activity by banning constitutionally protected arms? So, you are saying that Obama will stop these renegades from their illegal activity? Great news — but I am not holding my breath.

      Of COURSE the ATF is just doing what the White House has told them to do. You are simply dishonest to suggest that Obama is not responsible for what his people do. That is perhaps the weakest and most dishonest political argument I have heard in my life — the President is not really in charge of the Executive department. Wow. You need to stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking.

      Actually I am familiar with the USMC ammo proposal — but I also know that what the USMC does has nothing to do with what We the People choose to do for self-defense or in our role as the Militia. If the USMC does in fact change from green tip, that just leaves more green tip for civilian use — constitutionally protected civilian use, that is.

    11. @PeteDub,

      Secundius is basically right. Unlike Truman, the current occupant of the Oval Office claims no responsibility for anything bad, or even questionable, that happens under his watch. Even if it is done by the people in the executive branch, which he is supposed to be in charge of and responsible for, and he will probably say that it’s a non-issue and that he didn’t know anything about it until he heard about it on the news.

    12. @DonP

      Yeah, but it is fun to cram it down their throats about how dishonest and stupid they are to support the sign on Obama’s desk saying that “The Buck Doesn’t Stop Here Anymore.”

      This scumbag Obama and his apologists have taken the “art” of denying responsibility to the lowest level imaginable: “Not my fault, I am the President when I want to be, but not when the ATF tries something patently illegal and stupid — even though I had my buddy Eric tell them to do it.”

      The sad part is that the handful of people left who support Obama are so stupid that they don’t even know that it actually makes Obama look worse to deny responsibility, than to take responsibility and at least TRY to justify the illegal behavior (as impossible as that would be). They probably don’t even know who Harry Truman was, much less what it means for a person to take responsibility in a leadership position.

    13. @Secundius,

      Thank you for admitting that the ATF is engaged in wrongdoing by trying to ban constitutionally protected arms.

      As to the “direct link” of that wrongdoing to Obama, I refer you to the oath of office he took, twice, on national tv. In that oath, Obama undertook direct personal responsibility of the management of the Executive department (of which the ATF is a part) and swore to ensure that he and his underlings would follow the US Constitution — which they aren’t and you have admitted they aren’t.

      As to your question “What does 1774 Royal Colonial America and British Rule have to do with the Obama Administration” the answer is obvious: It is just as stupid, illegal, immoral and unconstitutional now for Obama to try to deprive the People of ammunition for our constitutionally protected weapons, as it was for King George to try the same stupid, illegal, immoral and unconstitutional act against the colonists in 1774. A rational person would think that educated people would understand that historical lesson — but obviously Obama doesn’t.

      Your foolish assertion that the colonists did not have any right to keep and bear arms is flat wrong, because the Magna Carta guaranteed them that basic human right.

    14. Oh Secundius just admit you are a brainwashed Obamite and will defend this criminal right or wrong. You’re just a troll here to argue and defend a corrupt administration.

    15. “The United States of America, wasn’t officially a New Nation until 3 September 1783. In 1774 we were STILL the Royal American Colonies, and we were still British Citizens. So my question to you is, what your point…”

      Secundius,

      I think you were missing the point and inferred something that wasn’t there. Can you clarify what, exactly, was YOUR point? How did your statement address the post that you were commenting on? TMW made no reference to the “United States of America”, just “American colonies”, which was a valid term. Use of the term of “America”, referring to “the new world”, started in 1507, so calling them “American colonies” was completely understandable. They were colonies and they were located in America, hence, American Colonies. “Royal American Colonies”? That is a term I have never heard before. Do a Google search of that and see how many links you get, I got five.

      As far as exactly when the United States became a new nation, who cares whether or not anyone else recognized us as independent? We declared our independence on July 4th, 1776. Understandably, if we had lost the war it probably would have just been a footnote in history, but we won. If not being recognized by Britain prevented us from being an independent country until 1783, then Taiwan isn’t an independent country since, last I heard, China still doesn’t recognize them as an independent country. As far as any other countries… who cares?

    16. @ Don P.

      My question was, What does 1774 Royal Colonial America and British Rule have to do with the Obama Administration. And the United States doesn’t officially recognize Taiwan as an Independent Nation either. But, Nicaragua does…

    17. @Secundius,

      TMW’s comment didn’t mention the Obama administration, it was just talking about learning from history. Things that happened prior to our declaring independence are still considered as being in our history.

      I wasn’t aware as to whether or not the U.S. officially recognizes Taiwan or not but, as I stated earlier, who cares? I’m sure the Taiwanese people consider themselves as having an independent nation. They are functioning as an independent country. If it walks like a duck…

    18. @ Don P.

      Technically speaking, in 1774 the United States of America didn’t exist. We were ALL British Colonial Citizens, even by British standard of the day. We were NOT British Citizen equals. We weren’t even equal to the British Soldier’s Garrisoned in the Colonies. If you broke the law, you were either sent to prison, put on a prison ship to rot, sent to a penal colony like Australia or hanged. If the British stormed into to your house and took your Rifle or Pistol, they had the LEGAL right to do so. And if you resisted you got punished for it…

    19. @Secundius

      I suggest that you go back and read what TMW actually said. He referred to the colonists expressly as such, not as American citizens as you falsely claimed.

      And, BTW, there was no such thing as a”British Citizen” under King George. They were called “subjects” — and there was no distinction in English law between subjects who lived in colonies or elsewhere. The concept of citizenship first became recognized under UK law in 1949.

      With those quotation marks around terms that did not even exist under King George (and probably have never existed), you are making it obvious that you are just making up stupid stuff because you don’t know what you are talking about and you are desperate to cover for your previous mistakes that were pointed out.

      Keep it up. This is entertaining.

    20. @ PeteDub.

      Try telling that to the Australians, Eqyptians, Jamacian’s, Malties, New Zealander’s, Indians, and South African’s, etc. under British Colonial Rule…

    21. @secundius
      Yout have done an outstanding job (unwittingly, I am sure) of illustrating the validity of every opposing comment in this string. In 1774 the vast majority of colonists, if not all, considered themselves British subjects. Even they were very unhappy with how they were being treated by the Crown, almost all hope for a reconciliation. It was only after the differences, the abuse of their rights, and the perversion of law, by the Crown, became intolerable to even reasonable and law biding citizens that a revolution took place. Obama and and his acolytes are committing the same crimes against the people of this country. Strong and hurtful words to you, I am sure. But true, by any reasonable and objective standard. Life is still good and tolerable, so there won’t be any revolt yet. But it is sad and ironic that we have elected leaders who are committing the same abuses and perversions of our Constitution that prompted the creation of our country In the first place.

  42. Maybe the ATF should be fighting Isis vs trying to ban M855 5.56 since they did such a bang up job at ruby ridge and the Waco siege.

  43. I went to Cabelas tonight for another purpose, but I was curious and went over to the .223 and 5.56 ammo section. There were dozens of boxes of X-Tac green tip 5.56 boxes on the shelf. I thought it would have been cleared out by now?

    I don’t own an AR-15, so I didn’t buy any.

  44. For those of you who do not recognize common sense-I pity you.If you dont acknowledge the bias against everything that has built this country-I pity you.It is obvious that your commander in chief has kicked in your back door and decided to let anyone in- your door not his.As far as I am concerned obama is islams boy in the White House.The Kurds, the Jordanians the Israelis have all been distanced by obama.Rick when they call for the confiscation of your ability to defend your family or yourself you will probably be the last to know.Hitlers National Socialists and Stalins Communists banned private possession of guns.Dont be a “useful idiot”.

    1. Sad part about it is we Americans cannot and will not do anything to stop this idiot. All Americans will do it sit back like cattle and be slain because no one is brave enough to make the move to get him out of power.

    2. @Larry Eaglebear

      BS.

      The governors of 27 states just beat the living crap out of OTI (Obama the Idiot) in court yesterday, for usurping the power of Congress to regulate immigration. The NRA is going to beat the living crap out of OTI in court for trying to disarm law-abiding Americans by “outlawing” the most common center-fire long-arm ammunition on the face of the plant, which enjoys constitutional protection under every Supreme Court ruling on the issue.

      OTI already IS “out of power” because We the People threw his cronies out of the Capitol Building like the dishonest sycophantic scumbags they are. Democracy works.

      We should celebrate our victories — and gain more victories — rather than stupidly crying in our milk like a bunch of whiny babies.

      It is a victory that Obama and his fellow idiots are so weak and marginalized that they can only try to do things by “executive action” because the American People will have none of it. OTI’s desperate overreaching behavior proves to the whole world that Obama’s policies are completely wrong — and that even he knows it. He is failing around like a drowning rat, and the whole world sees it.

      By a 3-1 margin, America’s political science experts have labeled Obama a failure — and by and large, these are left-wing academics who LOVE Democrats.

      Stop crying like a baby and start behaving like a winner. We have won and we will continue to win. because OTI and his shrinking support base are WRONG.

      By saying stupid crap like you did, you give these OTI-supporting idiots moral support they don’t deserve. They need to hear and see and feel that we KNOW we have them beaten, and that we will continue to thrash them until they stop trying to destroy America. They have been exposed for their hatred of America and Americans, and we need to leverage on that.

    3. Lets go Larry. We all need to get off the computer and stop bitching get organized with dedicated patriots and get to it. In a very shot period of time it will be too late.

  45. “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ” Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither” – Benjamin Franklin – I doubt the atf or Obama knows about this fellow.

    1. You noticed that too?

      Did you notice the caption under the picture? Have you ever heard of “.223 NATO”?

  46. He is out of Control, he is stripping away our Rights and Destroying our Country. He should be Impeached for all the things he has done. Taking these away from the Responsible People, Dosent Prevent the Criminals from obtaining them. Let’s Stand Together and Get Him Out, Before he Copletley Destroys Our Country!!!!

    1. Rodger we have to get off this impeachment crap. It ain’t going to happen. Congress is to scared and the republican party to full of RINOs to impeach the king. In other words the avenues given us to deal with tyranny by peaceful means will not work. We have 2 choices. Continue to sit and bitch or take matters into our own hands.

  47. what ? does he think he can take away our rights and then we are to support him financially after her leaves office for the rest of his life ?

  48. This is not about the protection of the police, as there are are other off the shelf rounds that can kill thru a level 3 vest. This is about the billions of affordable M855 and SS109 rounds that are now available for the US sportsman, thanks to the ill advised draw down in Afghanistan. The Obama regime is very afraid of a citizens revolt against them and is using creative ways to limit access to high quality low cost ammunition. They reveal their ignorance when they take action like this, and only reinforce the fact that the Obama regime is a lawless gang of communist conspirators with hatred for the constitution, the military, and Americans of European ancestry, AKA White people. You can bet that lots and lots of progressive reloading machines are now flying off the shelf, as are components to load and home manufacture steel core rounds. The plain old M193 works just fine, as does the M80 ball,and the Russian 7.62 x 39. Wanna bet that if the Obama commies institute some kind of draconian martial law and weapons confiscation, and render the constitution to lighting the White House wood stove that the Military will side with the people and ammo will be free and plentiful if you promise to use it wisely by aimed fire, and proper breathing and trigger control, and strive for one shot one kill to maximize the rendering of the communists to a non breathing state.

    1. One small problem with your theory, jaque.

      The military command stucture has been gutted. Those who were purged were purged because they’ve stated, in one fashion or another, that they will not give, or obey, an order to fire upon American civilians/citizens.

      For that Dear Leader removed and replaced them with sycophantic toadies who will obey his orders.

    2. @Michael Dittes

      The problem with your theory is that the White House only has input at the top level. From the next level down, and certainly from the bottom level up, the military WILL NOT obey illegal orders to go to war against American citizens.

      At the very most, the military would be neutralized from within in such a scenario, by those who are willing to do illegal things having to go through those who are loyal to their oaths to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. This scenario is very thoroughly discussed among troops, and they already know which way they will go and which way their buddies will go.

      In particular, the company-grade officers and NCOs who the troops truly follow in combat are the LEAST likely to kill their fathers, brothers, cousins, etc. just because some idiot with stars on his collar has a tempter tantrum. You don’t get into those roles without knowing exactly what you are doing, and why — and that means specifically understanding what the Constitution means to you. I would put those company-grade officers and NCOs up against any constitutional scholars, any day, on what America really is about.

      But even if 100% of the military members suddenly lost their minds, We the People have them outnumbered by a huge margin. And due to the nature of our all-volunteer force at any given time there are MANY more people in the US with combat skills out of uniform, than in uniform.

      There is NO WAY the White house could ever make war on the American People.

      I’m not saying that we should just let the idiot do what he wants, but what I am saying is that We the People have nothing to fear — the people who hate us do.

    3. It appears that the administration is attempting to disarm the people, but I don’t know if they are afraid we will revolt against the government, or if he is making way for an invasion of foreign forces.

  49. @ Tominator:

    It’s no wonder no one close to you bothers to take the time to explain the real economics to you because they already know you’re too dense to comprehend such things. So I hope you can appreciate your friends here in the CTD Forums that are willing to go above and beyond by breaking it down for you to better understand. So here we go…

    STOCK MARKET:

    It is no secret the stock market has been artificially propped up by Obama due to his intentional over-printing of U.S. dollars. Those running the exchanges know this will lead to another crash soon, but the selfish bastards won’t sound the alarm as long as they can make a temporary profit run. There are plenty of articles available on the topic for your edification.

    UNEMPLOYMENT:

    The job market / unemployment Obama statistics have been heavily manipulated by his administration to make them look favorable by not counting those that stopped looking for work and reclassifying what part-time means. Not a day goes by that another article isn’t printed exposing these facts. But on a more realistic note, my wife just went into unemployment last week after the company she’d been with for 20 years had to fold under the weight of the hidden bad economy and forced ObamaCare. It just doesn’t get any more real than that.

    DEFICIT:

    As for the deficit – Obama more than tripled it before using questionable figures to proclaim he finally cut it. Even if one does use Obama’s fuzzy figures, it still shows he more than doubled the deficit of his predecessor. Looks like you only read the liberal headlines and not the actual articles.

    WAR CASUALTIES:

    As for troop deaths – you are insultingly ignorant to not know before you comment that more than 3 times the number of troops died under Obama’s command in specific AORs as compared to Bush.

    GUN CONFISCATION by EVIL OVERLORD:

    I will assume you were living under a rock when the media published pictures last year of the massive lines of Connecticut citizens forced to register their guns or face confiscation and imprisonment. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of hold-outs that are officially now listed on Connecticut warrants as criminals whom must now await their fate of confiscation and imprisonment for failing to comply.

    CONCLUSION:

    Though my integrity prevents me, the unscrupulous sure do appreciate knowing there are suckers like you willing to buy a used car that only was only spit-polished on the outside – because they know you won’t bother to kick the tires and check under the hood before you buy it.

    For everyone else, be warned – a mass economic collapse is coming. Such artificial prosperity can only be propped up for so long on paper. Those with true wealth will be the preppers that maintain tangible items with a real purpose. The usefulness of each item will determine the real value after an economic collapse – things such as food, water, guns, ammo, and medical supplies will be the new currency. So be ready!

    1. Wow.

      Thanks for this, G-Man. I’ve been screaming this to anyone who will listen, for a number of years now. Sadly, no one pays attention (as long as their personal ox isn’t gored, or at least not gored too badly), and so I fear that things will continue down this path until it finally snaps, leading to full on rebellion.

    2. Stock Market – The Federal Reserve is independent. No branch of government may coerce the Federal Reserve into committing to a specific course of monetary policy.

      Unemployment – This is not being manipulated…at all. Unemployment figures have *NEVER* counted people who are not seeking work. This doesn’t prevent someone from intentionally touting good numbers (such as unemployment) and ignoring others (like labor force participation).

    3. @Chris

      BS. The Fed did not decide to enact Obama-don’t-care against the express will of the People, and to impose other totalitarian big-government control policies that directly led to the closing of more than a MILLION family businesses.

      And, while unemployment has always counted those who are no longer working, there has NEVER been such a large segment of society to have given up. So, to point to unemployment rates as good is morally and intellectually dishonest. Even the White House concedes this, so I don’t know why you Obama-philes bend over backward like idiots to defend something even your idiot hero knows better than to try to defend. This just proves how absolutely stupid you are.

    4. @ Chris:

      You are kidding! There is also a law that states the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed as well, but yet the fact that our right has been infringed upon is precisely the reason we often gather here and comment as we are today.

      So many laws have been violated by Obama that your comment is quite the joke. If you truly believe the Fed and the Administration do not coerce one another then I want some of what you’ve been smoking. The term “Printing Money” doesn’t only refer to the Fed.

      There is also cause and effect. Obama is quite aware the Fed has been ignorantly attempting to push their corrupt quantitative easing (QE) program in a fruitless effort to pull us out of recession. So in an effort to counteract their efforts Obama keeps spending like crazy. The Fed, not wanting to lose face, are forced to compensate by printing even more money (amongst other things) to give the impression their QE program is working. Both know what the other’s game is, but it is Obama at the switch, thus he is actually responsible for “Printing Money”.

      Now as for your rendition as to how unemployment numbers are manipulated (or not), then I say you are on crack, of which I’ll have none of. The Bureau of Labor Force uses the Labor Participation Rate in their numbers, so when that agency under the control of the Obama administration reclassifies 100 million Americans as now out of the labor force, I think it obvious something is foul.

      But you go on ahead and believe whatever you choose; it’s a free country… while it lasts.

  50. We have already failed. “Shall not be infringed”. We allow infringement all the time. Sawed off shotguns, automatic weapons, felons are all legal. The point of the 2nd amendment was to make us all defenders of freedom from enemies both foreign and domestic. “The tree of freedom need be watered with the blood of patriots”, said by a much braver and wiser than man I. But I will give my life for freedom, after all what is life without freedom. I would not fight in Vietnam, Korea, Middle East, but on my street or my shores, I am an animal. I am the first person in my neighborhood people turn to when the excrement contacts the air mover. When the LA riots took place I walked my neighborhood making sure who was here belonged here.

  51. No ammunition should be banned, does not make sense to own a gun and do not have projectile, soon we will be unprotected, just for the fact that our government can’t protect us from criminals, we have the right to do our self. god bless this nation its is better have whit what defend it and don’t need it than need it and don’t have it.

  52. Pingback: M855 Ammo Update
  53. He’s got to be stopped in court immediately. All rounds can be redefined as armor piercing, including the bb’s in my air gun. There’s no end in sight for this kind of abuse of our 2nd Amendment. Our borders are wide open and who knows what’s headed our way!

  54. Everyone needs to sign this petition below. The White House and BATFE occupants need to be brought-up on charges of blatant stupidity for this.

    It will do zero…absolutely zero to quell murders in this country.

    We have not seen such an incompetent White House and BATFE and all other alphabet soup agencies since the beginning of this Republic.

    Criminals all. Terrorists all. And they have the audacity to label conservative Americans (their 70 odd list of internal terrorist people)?

    Government criminals need to be cleaned-out. Please sign this White House petition below:

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

    1. Due to the fact that this site is messed up regarding replies, to whom was your reply directed? I only hope that I can find your reply to my reply.

      Thanks

      Smitty

  55. The argument seems to be the banning of a particular ammunition. The true agenda is to get the guns out of the hands of the privet citizen. This is the main threat against Obama and his progressive crones in his push of “Fundamental transformation of the United States of America.” An armed citizenry is the only protection against a tyrannical government.

  56. Compared to the hundreds of millions of other firearms in the US yes. That being said, I should have said “relatively few.”

  57. One point to argue is that he’s making many decisions without following the process so to speak. He still holds the title of an Islamic Prince and President of the USA. He’s making clouded decisions on bias that he can make these decisions with disregard of anyone’s opinion.
    The .223 is a highly produced ammunition because its popular. But it has resistant capibilities meaning, who ever has a AR15 can become a resistance force. Why is it America has not been invaded yet? Because we can resist an invasion on civilian side. But when enough ammos and or ammo is restricted America will not be able to fight effectively.
    If this was not the subject at hand I apologize.

    1. My compliments on a very well stated point. Try not to worry too much about America not being able to fight effectively if ammo is restricted. As soon as the Useless Nations (UN blue heads) show up they will immiediately become the easiest source of free ammo and full-autos our nation has ever seen.

  58. @Kenny Jones: The fact you admit you’re “lead [sic] to believe” anything, rather than think for yourself speaks volumes about your ability to properly assess the reality that surrounds you; thus rendering any opinions you make about others absolutely insignificant.

    It is incredibly disappointing to know there are people such as you and Obama that are incapable of discerning the differences between 300 and 700 years ago, while using your rhetoric to justify the barbaric actions perpetrated by ISIS in modern society today.

    Worse is that you don’t seem to comprehend how utterly absurd you all look repeating Obama’s lines for him. However, given by your own admission that you are “led to your beliefs”, it should come as no surprise to anyone that you depend on Obama to tell you what you should think.

    As such, I doubt you are capable of understanding what I am about to write without Obama’s government to break it down for you, but I’ll give it a try anyway. You wrote:

    “Instead, recognize that your idea of America is disappearing, and you are scared… So guns are your only solution. Let’s be honest. People who are not like you, scare you.”

    Your statement demonstrates how you fail to understand that an “idea” by nature remains in one’s head. In contrast, my America is not an “idea” because it has actually been fulfilled into existence beyond mere ideas, and has so for many years.

    The reality is, it is your “idea” to change my America which is still only in your head and will remain there; for it is our guns that will ultimately keep it there. And that scares you.

    I submit it is you and your ilk that actually fear us because you know while you will only ever have your “idea” of warping our American way of life, we on the other hand have the law and the means to defend it – from ever becoming anything more than just and “idea” rolling around in your heads.

    1. @G-Man,

      Good response to Kenny Jones.

      I would add that his claim that we don’t like people different from us is pure projection. It is the Left that has an ethos of classifying and liking / not liking people based on race, sex, etc. — and demanding / expecting that all who share those characteristics must think in a certain way. In contrast the sane rest of the world classifies people based on how they think (or, in the case of the Left, how they DON’T think).

      To the Left, “diversity” is a bunch of people looking different. To the rest of the world, diversity is a bunch of people who are free to be whoever they are and to think however they see fit to think.

    2. @ PeteDub:

      You nailed it hard with your composition defining the Left’s hollow disdain towards us as a mere projection of their own beliefs. Very well put!

      Control, props, puppets, and appearances comprise the Left’s version of diversity. All of which renders a society completely soulless and void of any substantive value on the path to achieving true freedom as our Constitution intended.

    3. @Rick

      You can “point it out” — but that does not make it true or even remotely accurate.

      As I said, the Left defines people by race, sex, etc. — in order to divide people against each other into so-called “victim classes.”

      By defining the Left based on “belief” rather than “class,” as I did, I did the OPPOSITE of what the Left does. So, your comment is 100% WRONG.

      Rational thinkers prefer to define people based on belief rather than “class.” There is no such thing as the “black vote,” for example, because black people do not all think the same way. But the Left specifically assumes the existence of a “black vote” — and calls anyone who dares to be an individual an “Uncle Tom” or “Oreo cookie.”

      But your approach is typical of a Leftie – you are so completely unable to think or read with comprehension, that you make statements that are clearly 100% wrong.

      As a Leftie, you say what your FEEL, without thinking or comprehending. THAT is what makes you a Leftie. You HATE, so you assume others do. You want to control others, so you assume others want the same. You divide people into “classes,” so you assume other think that way too. Those emotions form the core of your entire political philosophy. And you are flat wrong.

      Contrary to what Lefties think, people are inherently good. Only certain ideas (like Leftism) are bad. Because people are inherently good, democracy — the opposite of what the Left wants — is good.

      Anything that shifts power from the many to the few is bad — but the core beliefs of the Left are specifically based on shifting power from the many to the few because YOU HATE PEOPLE and assume that the few of you should make decisions rather than we the many thinking for ourselves.

      The only people you love are VICTIMS — and, at that, usually victims you create artificially by pitting groups against each other — because you think victims need your “help” and that “need” somehow justifies your belief in controlling the many so the victims can have your help.

      You people are pathetic. You are so certain that you are right, that you tell the masses that we are wrong when we tell you that you are wrong in elections and in poll after poll. You let your heroes like Obama off the hook by blaming their failings on “incompetence” rather than admitting that they are quite simply guilty of BAD THINKING.

    4. “But your approach is typical of a Leftie – you are so completely unable to think or read with comprehension, that you make statements that are clearly 100% wrong.”

      Point one out.

      “As a Leftie, you say what your FEEL, without thinking or comprehending. THAT is what makes you a Leftie. You HATE, so you assume others do. You want to control others, so you assume others want the same. You divide people into “classes,” so you assume other think that way too. Those emotions form the core of your entire political philosophy. And you are flat wrong.”

      Remember that old canard when you assume, you make an @$$ out of u and me? In this case, you’re just making it out of you. Big time Let’s see, I’ve voted for Reagan-Bush-Dole-Bush-libertarian-libertarian-libertarian. Some leftie. I’m just not a fascistic tea-partier marching lockstep parroting the talking point of the week.

      If you don’t see that classifying applying broad behavioral characteristics to an entire group like you did for “the left” is no different than what you say they do…well…that’s your problem, not mine. No amount of typing on my part will change that.

    5. “point one out.”

      I’ll do more than just one.

      You called thinking like a Leftie a “broad behavioral characteristic.” That is behavior typical of a Leftie. Thinking like a Leftie is not a “behavioral characteristic” (either broad or narrow) it is an “ideology.” But, by characterizing your ideology it as “behavior” you seek to avoid the label of “ideologue” — an anathema to Lefties because their Saul Alinsky strategy is to attack people who dare to think for being “ideologues.”

      I am perfectly proud of my ideology, in contrast to Lefties, and will gladly label it for exactly what it is — ideology. I am an ideologue — and proud of it.

      You are lying about your ideological background. Being stupid enough to attack people just for being open-minded enough to watch what Fox discloses, and to attack people just for being open-minded enough to listen to the ideology of the Tea Party (upon which ideology, literally, this nation was founded) exposes you as a Leftie. Perhaps you are a closet Leftie embarrassed about how stupid your fellow Lefties are, but you are definitely a Leftie nonetheless.

      You mindlessly accept the talking points of the Lefties, and parrot them even more mindlessly. There is not a darn thing “fascist” about the Tea Party for example, and you know it. But you FEEL that those talking points are really “cool,” so you have no problem with joining the lie. THAT, again, makes you a Leftie — like it or not.

      If you want to change, just start thinking for yourself rather than marching in lockstep with the totalitarian Left as you do by parroting their ridiculous and patently dishonest talking points. If you want to remain in the closet as a Leftie, at least be clever enough and independent-minded enough to come up with your own ridiculous talking points rather than parroting theirs as you did.

      A libertarian, indeed. BS. No actual libertarian would take issue with the Tea Party, which is a libertarian movement at its core.

      You are such a pathetic Lefties that you cannot even see how obviously false your own lies are.

    6. Yawn. How tedious it is to read that drivel of yours. Maybe you’re convincing to yourself and the rest of the ignorati*, but not to me. Actually, no, I did learn something from you. I did learn just far the compound word “open-minded” can be perverted because you’re anything but, in spite of how many times you typed it. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your vitriol. Or maybe it’s the other way around. Either way, I’m done with you.

      *it’s an invented word, but sooo fitting.

    7. LMFAO!! Ricky got owned…….that’s exactly how all libtards end an argument when they lose……hahahahaha. I’m done with you. bwahahahahaha

    8. “Libtard…” How CLEVER of you! The things they teach in elementary school these days!
      Does your mommy know you’re using her computer? Does she also do the complex math problems for you at the bottom of the Submit Comment page?

    9. Thanks for proving the point Ricky. When the intellectual going gets tough, Lefties ALWAYS get personal — because they CANNOT deal with facts and issues on an intellectual basis.

      This happens because Leftism is an ideology of feeling, not thinking. That’s why they seriously think “idealogue” is a pejorative label. To them, someone is bad for having an intellectual ideology rather than an ideology based on feeling like theirs.

  59. I got about 2K of M855 right now and will just sit on it until this situation is resolved. It just functions and seems to stabilize better in my SBR’s (62gr) In my other AR’s I run M193 exclusive. I’ve got tons of M193 ! Until someone takes away that morons ‘phone and pen’ buy as much ammo as you can whenever you can before it triples or quads in price.

  60. And congress sets on their ass doing nothing about it. they let this man make any law he wants to. chicken crap congress.

    1. Frank, there is nothing Congress can do when the Executive branch acts illegally. Only the courts can act. This is called “separation of powers.”

  61. Obama would lose his pen, his phone and his liberty if Congress impeached and convicted him. If he were convicted of treason, federal prisons don’t allow pens and phones to prisoners, do they.

    1. Mark,
      The details should be out the first part of next week. Check back, we will update this article and most likely write a companion article with instructions. Thanks for standing up for the Second Amendment! ~Dave Dolbee

    2. Don’t bother with BATF. They are bound to follow the statute, which uses the unconstitutional “sporting purpose” standard. The only way to attack the unconstitutional statute is in court.

      The fact that green tip is an effective round makes it constitutionally protected under the Miller “in common use at the time” standard applied in Heller. Under Miller, the 2nd Amendment protects the right of the People to have the specific kinds of weapons that would be needed for the militia (the People) to protect “the security of the state.” This specifically contemplates weapons (including ammunition types) “in common use at the time” for military purposes. The fact that green tip is exactly what the DoD issues gives it protection under the Miller standards.

      Everyone involved knows that, but the BATF has to follow the unconstitutional statute until a judge tells them they don’t have to (or can’t).

  62. Former President Nixon, should’ve declared unconditional war on the damn commy hippies……the Vets would’ve ended the Marx problem decades ago.

  63. Most people with even a small amount of education know that automatic weapons already are not available in the civilian market. Try to buy one, please.

    1. Maybe you should stick to topics that you have at least a little knowledge in. Fully automatic weapons ARE legal… At least in the non-nanny states.

    1. “Muslims that do not participate in terrorist acts, live vicariously through those that do.”

      And you know that how?

    2. ““Muslims that do not participate in terrorist acts, live vicariously through those that do.”

      And you know that how?”

      We know that because those who do not participate support the terrorists acts both financially and with their support if only in their silence. Some, like Obama, actively support the terrorist acts by claiming that they are justified by the Crusades and other such patent BS.

      Anyone who is a Muslim who is not actively fighting against radical Islamic terrorism is supporting that terrorism. There are some powerful examples of Muslims who have stood up to fight against radical Islamic terrorism, but it is time for the Muslim people at large to do their part to rid the world of those who do evil in the name of Islam.

      The only thing the rest of us can do is defend ourselves, lest we stir up even more fringe within Islam because of the sheer dishonesty of those who claim that this is a renewal of the Crusades. The solution must come from within Muslims themselves — and so far not enough Muslims have stood up, far too many have provided tacit and actual support, and far too many have simply tried to wash their hands of the matter when in reality they can’t.

    3. “We know that because those who do not participate support the terrorists acts both financially and with their support if only in their silence.”

      That’s a crock of Shiite. By that “standard” every Christian in the world was complicit in the Holocaust since the Germans were a Christian nation.

      “There are some powerful examples of Muslims who have stood up to fight against radical Islamic terrorism, but it is time for the Muslim people at large to do their part to rid the world of those who do evil in the name of Islam.”

      That’s quite true; they should! However, not having done so is hardly “livi[ng] vicariously” through the terrorists. There’s this huge middle ground of ordinary people living ordinary lives that your polemics ignore.

    4. OH RICK… I wasn’t going to say anything and just let you babble. However you said one of the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. Perhaps you should look into some history.. You will see that Nazism is in itself a religion.

    5. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to research the differences between a religion and a cult of personality. Then you can come back here, chagrined, and apologize to this history nut who knows the difference between the two.

  64. 1. You are wrong. There unquestionably is a shortage of specific types of ammunition. Go try to buy the most common rounds, and if you can buy them at all you will be subjected to limits on how many you may purchase. There also are and have been shortages of certain types of accessories necessary to fire weapons, such as standard-capacity magazines. You are totally dishonest to claim that there are not shortages.
    2. There does not have to be a shortage in order for the government action to be unconstitutional, wrongheaded and anti-American — and it is.

  65. This is great news! We should get rid of all automatic weapons in the civilian market, there’s absolutely no reason for them.

    1. There are no automatic weapons in the hands of civilians, read the article before you prove your ignorance.

    2. “There are no automatic weapons in the hands of civilians, read the article before you prove your ignorance.”

      There are FEW automatic weapons in the hands of civilians. That is not the same as NO automatic weapons.

    3. You do realize the article you’re commenting on has absolutely nothing to do with automatic weapons right? Probably not, your logic appears to be lacking as much as your thought process.

    4. This comment just shows how UNEDUCATED or IGNORANT some people are. THEY ARE SEMI-AUTOMATIC NOT FULL AUTOMATIC!

    5. An AR-15 is not an “automatic weapon. It shoots one bullet at a time an automatic is illegal. You are talking about something you have know knowledge of. it is the same as a semi-automatic hunting rifle. Just because it is black, and it takes different clip sizes you are going to outlaw it?

    6. @ Joel Giffin:

      FYI: Fully automatic weapons are not illegal. You just don’t see too many owners because ownership requires you apply for and pay the government tax stamp and they command a very high price to purchase from a dealer.

    7. @ Chris: Great news how – in that the Obama regime plans to usurp even more power in his effort to openly show he can defy the will of the people? Upon closer examination, regardless of politics, it is obvious to anyone of reasonable intellect that this move serves no other purpose other than to antagonize the industry and flex his defiant muscle.

      As for your statement that we should get rid of all automatic weapons – such a comment indicates you believe that unless something passes your personal reasoning for it to exist, then it simply should be gotten “rid” of. If I were you, I would re-examine your fascist opinion, unless of course you are a practicing fascist.

  66. Keep your Brass and invest in a nice reloading kit along with die sets to cast your own ammo. If you want dip the bullet in grade Teflon. Before you press into the case. Theres always a way around the laws. And ways to save money due to stupid laws inflating prices on the simplest of ammo. Ex. (.22 ammo)

    1. So violations of the Constitution and Federal Law are fine with you, as long as you agree with the violator? Nice.

    2. When the SHTF because of what brain dead sycophantic sheep like you have wrought. I know damn well what I will be aiming at first.

  67. How much more lawlessness are we going to take? Our freedoms are not going to just vanish over night. Its a process of one law after another to limit our freedoms. Lets get this one to pass and Oh since the American people let this one pass now lets push for this one….. This law, that law, one executive order and hundreds later. What is it going to take before the American people wake up and stop the real threat to our country!?!?!

  68. I’m curious if its against some conventional law to use armor piercing ammo against human troops? Like Geneva convention in WW2 where the bullet had to be FMJ… no hollowpoints. My point is, if it is, once Mr. lame duck makes it “armor piercing”… what wil U.S. troops use?

  69. Even if there’s is no success on banning the 5.56/.223 round, the fact that it could happen will cause people to buy and horde. Driving the prices up and the availability down.

  70. The more shooters who read this and other gun control stories the more will email BATF and there Reps. Forgive me if I repeat. BUT you can reach a lot more shooters just by posting a link to this story and future stories on other blogs you follow. I did this yesterday before anyone had responded on Shooters Log. 3 other blogs, one old man, and last time I looked this story had almost 400 reads by people who might not have known. Much faster than door to door! You read and post on other blogs anyway,do this.

    The left uses this trick very well. Social media got Obama elected! We are behind the times.

    POST A LINK! I don’t think CTD will complain about more readers(potential shoppers).

    MOLON LABE!!

  71. I think he’ll be successful. He has managed to get his anti constitution way at every turn. And congress has no backbone for standing up to him. He is a bully and even WE, let him get away with his every whim.

  72. It is amazing to me that so many people in this country are clueless about the administrations aims.Just heard that Coptic Christians were beheaded by “radical” muslims.To deny a Judeo-Christian country the means of self-defense is obviosly obamas muslim belief.L am sorry for you Muslim brothers out there but we Americans didnt start this war.I lost a friend in the Towers on 9/11.I know whose side Bush was on and I know which side obama is on. Reload for ammo access.

    1. “To deny a Judeo-Christian country the means of self-defense is obviosly obamas muslim belief.”

      People who think like you give the rest of us gun owners a bad name. How you can have 4 misstatements in one short sentence is astounding.

    2. a) Neither the Constitution, nor any law, says this is a “Judeo-Christian country.” Quite the opposite, in fact.
      b) “the means” of self defense” does not equal a rumor of of a possible ban of one particular kind of cartridge. “the means” does not mean “a means.
      c) “obviously?” To whom? To tin foil hat wearing Fox news devotees who don’t care about facts, or using the English language with any sort of precision? Nothing “obvious” about it.
      d) “muslim belief” Oh please. And he was born in Kenya, too, right? Even if that was true, which it isn’t, Kenya has a higher percentage of Christians in their population than the US does. Interesting little factoid there, isn’t it?

      So, four misstatements in that sentence, just as I said. Attribute Obama’s behavior for what it is…incompetence.

    3. “Four misstatements in that sentence” – if you want to get on people about their use of the english language maybe you should learn it a little better yourself. I think what you meant to say is “Four misstatements in that short paragraph” , because once you read passed a period, that particular sentence is concluded. You trying to make yourself look so educated and superior just backfired, just like Obama’s pathetic attempts to revoke our constutional rights. #READUPFIRST

    4. “…read passed a period.”

      “To deny a Judeo-Christian country the means of self-defense is obviosly obamas muslim belief.” is one sentence. Also, it’s “…past a period.”

      LMFAO. Rule one of being holier than thou: Actually being holier.

    5. Rick,

      You have the Constitution and facts backward. This IS a Judeo-Christian country, because that is the overwhelming preference of the People. The only thing the Constitution says about the subject is that we don’t have a Judeo-Christian GOVERNMENT, or a government espousing (or limiting) any other specific religion either. The Constitution could not possibly define this country as either Judeo-Christian or not as you claim it does — given that the 1st Amendment specifically deprives the government of any authority over religion.

      Also, it absolutely is legitimate political discourse to characterize Obama’s opposition to the values of most Americans as something other than just “incompetence.” The fact that you are unwilling to hear discourse you do not like proves that you are very close minded.

      Facts? The fact of the matter is that Obama has repeatedly made it clear that he hates the America that he actively seeks to change into something that is not the America he hates.

      Furthermore, Obama has gone on record for favoring radical Islam (he can’t even characterize that for what it is) over the beliefs of everyday Americans who merely dare to “cling to [our] guns and religion” (but he can say THAT even though it attacks the two greatest elements of out Bill of Rights in just a few words). In so doing, Obama might not actually prove that he is a Muslim. But unquestionably he is a sympathizer of others who share the religion of his middle name of “Hussein.” THAT’s good enough for any rational person to lump him in with those he prefers over the vast majority of Americans.

      You have no idea where Obama was born, because he has refused to provide a birth certificate to settle the matter. Given everything else he has glibly lied about, no rational person could expect the rest of us to take his word on where he was born.

      Kenya, when Obama was born wherever he was born, did not have a very large Christian population. That change is largely the result of the very Americans Obama hates engaging in successful missionary work over several generations. Factoids are for idiots — and your use thereof exposes you as an idiot.

    6. “Factoids are for idiots — and your use thereof exposes you as an idiot.”

      Umm, yeah, I guess you told me.

    7. @ steve: I get you man. My intent is not to detract from the message or priority of this article, but you bring up an excellent point about where Obama’s real allegiance lies, and how it plays into every single decision he directs his administration to make.

      There is no question any longer that Obama’s claims of being Christian were but a mere smokescreen to the White House. And since no one else will say it, I will… when the majority of a country is founded and comprised of Christians, a Muslim has no business ruling it.

      Now that Obama has secured two elections, the true snake within feels free to reveal its ugly head and strike. If Obama’s obvious hands-off approach to troubles in the Middle-East, of which he escalated to Biblical proportions, isn’t proof enough, then consider his detestably brazen remarks to all Americans during last week’s annual Prayer Breakfast…

      It is simply unbelievable that a president would address a country comprised of a majority of Christians and use a time intended for speaking of healing and goodness – to instead chastise America for some Crusades that occurred over 700 years ago.

      Worse is that Obama’s point was unmistakable in that he was using that ancient history to excuse the mass barbaric killings by Muslims under today’s standards. Utterly disgusting this man is.

      So to those that are unable to make the connections and realize as steve has, that Obama’s personal ideologies and faith system do directly impact his presidential decisions, and thus our lives… well I say then that you are all truly doomed.

    8. Guys I am not going to try and get into BO’s ideology or even try and get inside his brain…

      Nor do I want to hijack this thread into something totally separate from what the original story was about.

      However, I am a “certified news junkie” and pretty much quote chapter & verse as far as what is going on both here and over there…

      Bottom line is it ain’t even close to adding up to being a dollar…

      The only thing I think /See is where on the path/road to being in really really bad shape before we see Nov 2016 for a # of reasons both domestically as well as from external sources.

      Personally my assessment is we’ll get out butts kicked beyond our wildest dreams sooner than later and 75-85% of the population will say where did that come from, when in fact it was in plain view all the time.

      Hope I am wrong, but I am not betting against myself.

      All others are on their own.

    9. There is no question that he is a Muslim? I thought he attended Jeremiah Wright’s church for many years? That raises questions to me. I’m more lead to believe that Obama is agnostic. Furthermore the Christians who started our country did things to people that are just as horrendous as what ISIS is doing. Let’s not brag about those people. Instead, recognize that your idea of America is disappearing, and you are scared… So guns are your only solution. Let’s be honest. People who are not like you, scare you.

    10. OH KENNY looks like the weekly brainwashing sessions are going well for you.. Do they have you on that special, special medication too? Ok nap time Kenny.

    11. Yes, I know which side Bush was on. The question is, do you?
      Bush IS Obama IS Clinton IS Bush Sr is Carter IS Reagan (after 4 assassination attempts)

      Pull your head out and pay attention!

      “Radical”Muslims. You’re an idiot if you think all Muslims are like this. You want to cherry pick a couple lines from the Quran, out of context.

      And then you make the false statement that we’re all as dumb as you.

      This is about guns and we’re all on the same side here. Let’s keep it on topic. Especially since you’re ignorant to the facts.
      BTW, there is more evidence showing Obama is from Kenya than there is that he’s from Hawaii.
      I love how people get little half truth sounds bites from the media and then regurgitate it like they have an original thought or idea, our are speaking from a place of being informed.

      Turn off the TV!!!!!!!

  73. Support the NRA and do email the BATF it can’t hurt. At the same time we the people need to email or call our elected officials and tell them to make a stand and impeach Obama. Instead of fighting other not so priority issues.

    1. This is a crock of crap I think they just need to impeach Obama and get us a president who is worried about our country and not what kinda bullets our guns fire

  74. “I am the moron you speak of, and the title is accurate. The action does seek to outlaw .223/5.56 ammunition. No, not all of it, but the purpose is to get people interested enough to read in the hopes they will also act.”

    Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

    1. “… the title is accurate.”

      On that same logic, if a restaurant owner kicked out two black patrons because they were causing problems, the local newspapers could headline with…

      “Restaurant owner refuses to serve African-Americans”.

      Technically accurate? Maybe. But if the two black patrons are not Americans, such as when Chris Cuomo referred to the two black French terrorists as “African-American”, it would definitely not be correct. I’m sure that Al Sharpton would soon be visiting anyway.

      Your title is now somewhat more accurate than it was, but it still is not accurate. At least you have added “(M855)” to the original title of “Obama to Outlaw .223 Ammunition Through Executive Action”. As I stated in my previous post, however, the M855 is not commercially produced as a .223 (or at least not that I’ve ever seen). “Obama to Outlaw .223 Ammunition (M855) Through Executive Action” is still not accurate. “Obama to Outlaw 5.56 Ammunition (M855) Through Executive Action” would be. I would tell you that there is a difference between the .223 and the 5.56, but then I would expect you to already know that since you wrote an article on that subject two years ago.

      I do, however, have to agree with one part of your post above. Considering what the body of the article said, Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of your original title.

  75. More of Obamas idiocy showing through. I will also of course be sending an email to voice my opposition to this infringement, as well as make a donation to the NRA. This is what we have to put up with when people vote democrat/socialist fools into office. The fight is even harder when a democrat supporting weasel like bloomberg is thrown into the mix.

  76. Absolutely absurd why do they think they can just continue trampling our rights and when will the one’s we elected do something about it??? Before we have to.

  77. I’ve already submitted an additional NRA donation, now I am looking forward to submitting comments to the BATFE; of which will be in before the weekend is up. I would post that contact info, but Dave already stated he’d do it later in the week. Obviously he reserved that opportunity for a reason and I don’t wish to rain on his parade.

    My biggest problem with entertaining these open comment sessions by the government is what a joke they appear to be. It’s just a formality they go through when it is obvious they’ve already made up their minds. Nevertheless, we must play their game and weigh in.

    When one considers the actual topic put out for comment, it clearly indicates we are dealing with the mentally retarded to begin with. It’s like soliciting comments as to whether they should ban anyone over 250 pounds because they might fall on an officer and hurt them during an arrest attempt.

    Keep in mind however, that they can grant exemptions to anyone in professional sports that are over 250… because it serves a sporting purpose.

    1. The NRA-ILA is working on it. Hopefully, it will have more information next week. Right now, the best thing we can do is support the NRA-ILA in its efforts, gather like minded individuals, and comment to the BATFE to show our united opposition. ~Dave Dolbee

  78. So, just who is the moron who titled this article? I hope that he shoots better than he writes. Talk about inaccurate spin! The title “Obama to Outlaw .223 Ammunition Through Executive Action” makes it sound as though ALL .223 ammo is going to be outlawed. Then when you read the article, it is only referring to the M855 ball ammo (referring to a specific projectile) which doesn’t even come as a .223 round unless you reload your own. M855 is only sold in in 5.56 rounds as a loaded round… and yes, there IS a difference. I’m not saying I agree with the idea of outlawing the M855, but can we not get a title with a bit more accuracy?

    1. Don– your right about the title. On other blogs I sent this to they are blasting CTD over the title. It weakens the story and looks deceptive. This story is important info but the title under mines it.

    2. Don,
      I am the moron you speak of, and the title is accurate. The action does seek to outlaw .223/5.56 ammunition. No, not all of it, but the purpose is to get people interested enough to read in the hopes they will also act. We need to get our numbers together to oppose such actions. If allowed to stand, what would stop the Obama administration from banning all .223/5.56 ammunition. Instead of trying to eat our own, let’s appropriately direct our anger at the antis for a change. ~Dave Dolbee

    3. Dave (or anybody), is it just “green tips” that they are going after?

      Is 7.62×51 or 7.62×39 affected at all? These are the 2 calibers I use.

  79. We almost WANT these GunGrabNazi nutcases to try this foolishness. They will lose the instant the issue reaches a federal judge’s desk (just like they lost the interstate handgun sales issue this past week), and their credibility will be even further eroded.

    The fact that these clowns are going after literally the most common long-arm center-fire cartridge used in the US, by a huge margin over the next common such cartridge, makes them automatically WRONG under the Miller “in common use at the time” standard as applied in Heller. Green tip is constitutionally protected under the Miller standard precisely BECAUSE the huge amount of green tip sold proves that the People have concluded that green tip is an effective round. The People, not Congress and not the BATF, decide what we think we need.

    As the Supreme Court ruled in Miller, one specific purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to protect the right of the People — who also constitute the “militia” — to have arms suitable for fighting off a invading army (which necessarily includes ammunition suitable for that purpose). Any “arms” of any kind (including specific types of ammo and specific firearm parts such as magazines of any capacity) are automatically constitutionally protected without any further inquiry if they are “in common use at the time” for any lawful purpose. The lawful purposes go well beyond the “sporting use” the BATF uses, and include the unquestionably lawful purposes of self-defense, and preparing to fight against threats against “the security of the state” as that phrase is used in the 2nd Amendment.

    These people are flailing like drowning rats. Let them flail. Take the fight to the courts, where we will win EVERY TIME.

    1. My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. How many decades did the people of D.C. die by the hundreds every year before a case finally made it before the Supreme Court that provided some relief, yet still allowed onerous regulations to exist in order for a law abiding citizen to purchase the firearm they decide is best for their self protection?

      Is the recent ruling on interstate purchases of handguns universally applicable across America or only that judge’s particular district? The rules for the application of Federal case law and the Constitution are confusing.

      Before the Supreme Court ruled on the D.C. 2nd Amendment case, I thought the Constitution applied universally, and to all levels of government. Then it turned out that yet another case had to go forth for the good people of Chicago.

      Are the nice people of New York, New York able to purchase a handgun for self defense or not? Like I said, my memory isn’t as good as it use to be.

      My belief in Constitutional law is suffering as well. I thought we elected Presidents not Dictators.

      I destroyed my rose colored glasses before I graduated high school. Maybe you should put your’s away for a while. No hard feelings, I’m just saying…, well you know.

    2. Sorry but we dont always win; check out the Hughes Act that stopped sales of new full-autos to anyone except the guvmint (and of course Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Muslim Bruthahood, and Hamas). I do however agree 100% with everything else you said. 🙂

    3. If a case reaches the Supreme Court over the validity of the NFA, that law almost certainly will be struck down under the rationale of the Heller case.

      In Miller, the court upheld the NFA because the sawed-off shotgun at issue in that case did not have a valid “sporting use.” The court also said that sawed-off shotguns were not “in common use at the time” so they were not protected under the 2nd Amendment’s purpose of ensuring that the People had “common” weapons suitable for combat as may be necessary for use to protect the “security of the state” in our role as the “militia.”

      But, now that the Heller court has ruled that the constitutionally protected uses of firearms under the 2nd Amendment include self-defense, the legal question is whether, in the absence of the chilling effect of the NFA, the People WOULD use full autos, sawed-off shotguns, suppressors, etc. for self-defense. I believe that any fair survey of the firearm owners in the US would show that, more often than not, we would choose to have those specific types of weapons available both to defend ourselves and for possible use in suppressing an invading army. I absolutely NEED a suppressor, for example, to protect my hearing — there is no need for the government to force me to accept hearing loss as the price for saving my life against an attacker.

      Furthermore, the NFA could not possibly pass muster under the “strict scrutiny” standard applicable to laws that restrict basic human rights (such as the basic human rihgt of armed self-defense recognized in Heller). The purpose of the NFA is to prevent bad people from having “gangster” weapons. Because there are other ways to prevent bad people from having “gangster” weapons than preventing law-abiding citizens from having those weapons (for the lawful purposes of self-defense and protecting the “security of the state”), the NFA is not the least restrictive way to protect that government interest (preventing bad people from having “gangster” weapons). So, therefore the NFA is unconstitutional.

      These bonehead legislators can (and will) keep on passing unconstitutional laws, but they lose in court.

    1. Two days later, and my prediction was right. Stock on .223 is short and disappearing fast. And still, the Evil Ol’ Obama hasn’t issued an executive order outlawing them. Ha! Your Corporate Masters (in this case, ammo manufacturers) are laughing all the way to the bank. Nice going, hoarders.

  80. We can’t let him get away with this! If this ‘Lame Duck’ is allowed to conduct this type of ‘Pen and Phone tactic to effect government policy, without the benefit of Congressional approal, he will be setting dangerous precidents that may allow him to achieve what he really wants. An all-controlling Socialist Government, where the people lack the 2nd Ammendment Rights to resist. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t advocate any type of ‘Home-Grown’ terrorist actions. But I do believe in the people’s right to defend themselves against any attempted Government Take-Over. Let us not ever forget Nazi Germany!

    1. I would like to paraphrase something New York Congressman Jerrold Nadler said to TV reporters during the Florida presidential vote recounts in 2000 — I too smell fascism in the air!

      Yet, I still hold tightly to the belief that Federal courts may ultimately rule that BHO’s commandments not only fail the smell test, they also fail the Constitutional test.

      Hopefully Associate Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will stay awake for the arguments, not that it would make any difference in how she would rule on the cases before her.

    2. Hopefully she lives long enough to see the election of the next “conservative” President so she can make way for a more moderate voice on the Court. Remember any sitting President has the authority to rescind any or all executive orders signed by any previous President…

    3. You’d think, by that logic, that within the last 6 years, the Kenyan-born, Socialist, Muslim dictator would have done so by now. Instead, the stock market has rebounded in ways that make Clinton blush, unemployment has been slashed, the Cheney-Bush deficit has been slashed, less soldiers are being killed in two illegal wars, and the White House has beer named for it.

      And no guns or ammo has been swept up in the middle of the night by the Evil Overlord.

      Huh.

    4. You’d think, by that logic, that within the last 6 years, the Kenyan-born, Socialist, Muslim dictator would have done so by now. Instead, the stock market has rebounded in ways that make Clinton blush, unemployment has been slashed, the Cheney-Bush deficit has been slashed, less soldiers are being killed in two illegal wars, and the White House has beer named for it.

      And no guns or ammo have been swept up in the middle of the night by the Evil Overlord.

      Huh.

    5. OH TOMINATOR YOU MUST BE LOST. I believe you are looking for the I AM A BRAINWASHED OBAMITE site… or perhaps the I BELIEVE EVERYTHING I AM TOLD TO BELIEVE site. However it is always entertaining to read posts from uninformed socialists like you.
      Have a lovely delusional day.

    6. Yes, Clinton WOULD blush at the fact that small business — the source of most new jobs and economic growth — is struggling so much that the stock market is growing as the only place people can put money these days. More than a MILLION businesses have closed under this jerk, and that closure rate is accelerating as Obama-don’t-care is kicking even more family business to the curb and more people out of work. More people are unemployed in the US than at any point in history, and the lowest percentage of Americans are employed in history. “Unemployment rates” are “low” only because so many people have been out of work for so long that they are excluded from the count. The deficit is at record highs. No soldiers were ever being killed in illegal wars.

      Wow, the White House has beer named for it. Awesome “accomplishment.” Drink more of it.

      Guns and ammo have in fact been swept up illegally. In California, for example, Obama’s boys are seizing the weapons of any gun owner who has sought any type of medical assistance for anything even remotely resembling mental health care. The BATF is now seriously proposing to outlaw a specific weapon that is unquestionably constitutionally protected under the Miller Standard as applied in Heller, as it is “in common use at the time. “Green tip” is the most commonly used center-fire long-arm cartridge. Under the Miller standard, the fact that it is commonly used makes it protected.

      You know that, i know that, and the BATF knows that — but they are being directed from the White House to make a patently illegal attack upon a constitutionally protected weapons specifically because the White House wants to defy the law, and in so doing to prove to their last few remaining supporters that they are “doing something.”

    7. The will continue to happen as long as we continue to let it happen. Letter writing and donations are part of the game. Putting a million gun owners on the mall in DC would let the administration know we are not putting up with it. It would send I clear message that we are organized we can mobilize and we will do what’s necessary to protect our rights…. Game on.
      Ahhhh never mind bitching is easier……………………..

    8. Since when is standing in defense of the Constitution against an illegal, oppressive, anti-Constitution Government considered “terrorism”. The Founding Fathers made way for just that action within the framework, just one reason why we must also resist an Article 5 Constitutional Convention. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, but read it, understand it, live it and by all means protect it, with your life if necessary.

    1. Maybe Barry’s next action will be to take away all weapons from the secret service detail and only allow them to carry slingshots…

      Ya think?

    2. Now please, don’t pick on poor Michael…

      He’s a home boy… With he and I growing up geographically about 2 miles apart but ideological universes away…

      Go figure…

  81. Since ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO kills about a half million more people each year than .223 ball ammo, which may kill a dozen at most, WHY DONT THEY OUTLAW ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO!
    Idiots.

    1. Why? Because alcohol and tobacco are protected by the Bill of Rights and the Right to bear arms is not. Or something like that.

  82. So what’s new? The lame-duck idiot can do whatever he damned well pleases, and Congress just sits back and does……NOTHING! What the hell has become of a country who elects a spineless incompetent who promises “hope and change,” but has created more damage to the country than any other president in history, other than that little piss-ant Jimmy Carter. If you suffer from low blood pressure, check this out for a quick cure:

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/021315-739446-giving-illegals-the-vote-is-how-to-wreck-a-country.htm

  83. YES ,he will get his way long enough to cause another which i am sure has allready begun is a big rush to buy it all up and then be like 22 long rifle 5 times the normal price and almost impossible to find .The sks ,ak rounds are next they come in handgun form as well now . All should have thought reak hard before they began offering these short barreled rifle cartridge so called pistols and the fact of the arm brace articles in various magazines showing us all how to use it as a shoulder fired weapon along with posting vids of using then in this manner DOES NOT HELP OUR CAUSE N FIGHT .WHY on this guys watch? should have waited till this admin was out of office but greed and money overwhelm common sense every time . We know his views on gun ownership in america this is the same guy stood on national tv scolding us american law abiding gun owners for not going along with his crazy ideas and laws he wishes to pass against gun ownership in this country. THE WRITING IS CLEAR he wants them all ,period and will not stop until the day he is out of office and you better vote smart you put another democrat in the whitehouse we can all kiss gun rights good bye in America at this time .They are after them and will never stop now ever.better buy it now w/e caliber that these use you wont get it later without paying mint for it . YES he will sign it yes it will be law until it goes through the legal process thats enough time for him to just about eliminate all ammo for these at all.If you do not wake up now you will regret it later ,write your congressmen ,governers,reps ,all of them and do not give up till we get the democrats OUT that want to destroy our right to own firearms at all , they will win in the end if we do not stay vigilant.JMHO

  84. I cut and pasted this to 3 other blogs I follow. You might want to do the same on gun rights topics you find. It’s a easy way to do SOMETHING! Just know that some people don’t like CTD. Other stories I did this with got 300-400 views per sight.Better than door to door! Also send them to the local gun friendly radio station. One used the story I sent. That felt good. MOLON LABE!!!

  85. Think about it – all of this ammo will still be out there under grandfather clauses. So if the entire premise of the statute was or is established to protect law enforcement, I challenge the ATF to prove that it does.

    Just like the recent Federal District decision that handed the ATF their ass, this will too. In the meantime, this is nothing but a waste of tax dollars over nothing. Seriously, this is as ridiculous as everything else that eventually gets overturned by Supreme Court Judges.

    1. “…all of this ammo will still be out there under grandfather clauses.”

      If the government makes possession of M855 rounds illegal, it is possible that they will NOT grandfather the ones still in possession. They could also make the sales or transfer of the M855 rounds illegal after a set date and only allow the possession for a specific period of time after the initial date… allowing a “reasonable” amount of time for the people currently in possession of the rounds to use up their current supply… after which the mere possession of any rounds would be illegal.

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