News

Military-style Police Equipment: Gun Control Rhetoric or Justified Outrage

Protestor holding a Demilitarize the Police in Ferguson Missouri

Law enforcement officers made the national news as of late in Ferguson Missouri accused of being too military-like. However, who can trust the spin-doctors in the main street media? Are the police really out of control, or is the media spinning the debate in an effort to promote gun control? I took to the streets of Ferguson for a first hand look and to a conclusion that was more than expected.

Protestor holding a Demilitarize the Police in Ferguson Missouri
This protestor was not a Ferguson local, but presents a real danger our Second Amendment rights.

The Issue

An old adage of war states, “There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.” One can say much the same about the police. When facing off with the police, protestors and media claim the police have too many weapons, riot gear that makes them look more like an occupying military force than law enforcement and are using military-style tactics. On the other hand, police officers are not paid to be moving targets, bullet sponges, crash test dummies or fireproof clothing testers. So where should we draw the line between the safety and security of law enforcement and civil liberties?

Do we want to support a narrative that builds a slippery slope to potentially losing our own gun rights?

Now, before we get too far down the rabbit hole, let’s put a few matters into perspective. First, while I have heard a lot of rhetoric from people who certainly must be much braver than me… who wouldn’t or hasn’t called the police at one time or another to settle a dispute or investigate a crime? Let’s not forget, we are talking about the people who respond to the call when others dial 9-1-1 and run away or shelter in place. Sure, in the movies the little guy gets revenge, but we are talking about reality here. If it were your loved one, son, daughter, spouse, mother or father on the front line, would you not want them to have every layer of protection possible? After all, the police are not gladiators to be sent into the ring for a blood sport.

Graffiti against the police in Ferguson
The locals are no fans of law enforcement, but we should not let that play into an anti Second Amendment agenda.

That is not to say fault cannot be assigned though. The Shooter’s Log has an art director who is launched into the stratosphere every time a photo is submitted with someone’s finger on the trigger and for good reason. Firearm safety articles continually preach muzzle discipline and admonish shooters to NEVER point a firearm toward ANYTHING they do not intend to destroy. So, why have the police been so willing to surface from armored vehicles with a rifle and scan the crowd through the riflescope? Since when is it okay to clear a McDonald’s using firearms like laser pointers toward citizens who have not presented a danger? What about the out-of-control officer pointing his long gun and yelling, “Get back or I will bleeping kill you!” Of course we can find fault—justified fault—in anything scenario given enough time and people. However this still begs the question, “Have they not trained in muzzle discipline or is there a justification for any of these behaviors?”

Have you considered how many times the gun grabbers have accused AR-15 owners as having no legitimate reason to own a ‘military-style assault rifle?’ Are we going to blindly follow the media when they make the same argument but substitute law enforcement?

I do not have the answers, I am merely posing the questions in an effort to promote debate and hear a wide selection or reader’s points of view.

Gun Control Rhetoric

Most people reading now are not in Ferguson nor are they professional law enforcement, but that is not to say the debate does not affect you personally. Have you considered how many times the gun grabbers have accused AR-15 owners as having no legitimate reason to own a ‘military-style assault rifle?’ How many assaults have pro gun rights groups endured over the number of rounds legal gun owners should be able to have in a magazine? What about caliber selection, the ‘lethality’ of personal defense ammunition? If the military tops their rifles with one of Trijicon’s ACOGs, should you or the police be banned from doing the same as a result? After all, if the military uses it or something like it, the antis will consider it “military-like.” In case you have not been paying attention that is where this argument could be heading.

Reporter with gas mask at a McDonalds
Would you consider a gas mask as ‘military-style’ equipment?

A Backdoor Gun Control Movement?

So, is the media’s current narrative doing little more than playing into the hands of those who seek to eliminate the Second Amendment? How often have we stated that if it was good enough for law enforcement, civilians should have the same rights for self-defense? Do we want to support a narrative that builds a slippery slope to potentially losing our own gun rights? Moreover, it will not stop at guns, how does the ‘military-style’ rhetoric play into other areas of equipment. What about gas masks, plate carriers, MOLLE gear, ammo cans, military collectables such as military helmets, camo, Alice packs, load bearing gear and more. The media’s current narrative could blur the lines to the point not only would we lose our Second Amendment rights, but the rhetoric could be taken so far that we lose the right to own much, much more.

Do you feel there is a danger to the current ‘military-style’ rhetoric used against the police or is it justified with police departments that are simply out of control and over equipped? Or do you find truth on both sides? Please share your thoughts and opinions in the comment section.

 

[dave]

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (119)

  1. Being in Law Enforcement for over twenty five years. When I first started we were issued a side arm S&W 5904 three mags, a pump shotgun and a PR24 to protect ourselves and others then the bad guy began to arm themselves with better weapons and we were out gunned. We forget the Bank of America robbery in Hollywood where the Police were out gunned and could not stop the action of two heavily armed men hell bent on killing for money. We are now equipped and trained with assault type weapons and sometimes we are still out gunned and out numbered. If you’ve never been called to a riot type situation you will never know the feeling of true fear. When the crowd is projecting hatred toward you and spitting and throwing things at you not knowing who in the crowd is armed and not knowing if your in the Crosshair of someone scope. You are there for their protection willing to die for a stranger that hates you, willing to leave your family alone without you so this stranger can go home safe a continue their hatred for their protectors. With that said I’m a firm believer that if your going to arm Police with weapons any weapons they need to constantly train and qualify with those weapons. Pointing a weapon at an unarmed person is unacceptable and should never be done. I’ve point my weapon at individuals who I perceived as armed but when the situation was assessed I reacted properly. We in Law Enforcement need weapons to do our job to protect our communities and its visitors but we must constantly train and upgrade to keep up with the threats we face each day. With that all being said I’m also a firm believer that each citizen who legally can should arm themselves to protect themselves. The saying goes, A GUN IN THE HAND IS BETTER THAN A COP ON THE PHONE. I’m on my way but can’t be everywhere at once so protect yourselves and train hard and train real.

  2. AS A SIDE NOTE, some of this military surplus, such as sleeping bags, tents, mess kits, shovels, cookware, ropes, duffle bags, micky boots and computers made it into our Boy Scout Troop when me and my son were involved. It allowed us to supply for about 10 cents on the dollar the troop required equipment. (Most cost was fuel going to pick out, then later to pick up) we had a County Commissioner set us up to get items on their account then reimburse the County.

  3. G-Man
    Per my discussion with Erick. I do support law enforcement having whatever it needs to do it’s job. If there is a legit need for bayonets so be it.
    As a side note I thought I should mention that as a former Fire Chief municipal fire departments were and are also offered some of the federal military equipment. Some of the equipment was available to PDs only but we were certainly able to get ahold of most vehicles, watercraft, most anything justified for response or safety. It is a real budget saver for a lot of departments.

  4. ERICK
    Yeah that’s what I mean, equal to those we may face. The true defenders of Liberty are not the organized military it is us, the liberty loving Americans … I certainly want our cops to be able to face down any threat but, we as American citizens should have the ability to defend the Constitution against any tyrannical takeover. I don’t need, or want for that matter, an Apache helicopter in my yard or an Abrams in the garage. (Although the Abrams would be nice in stop and go traffic) I also know that the government is never going to open ownership to automatic weapons even though there are already illegal automatics on the street. The other concern of course is if all arms are available for police and the public it is also available to bad guys.
    I guess my position has to be that I support the 2A without qualification and support law enforcement having the equipment it needs to do its job and leave it at that.

  5. Erick

    That’s interesting because when this post first came out I felt almost exactly as you do. I have since read a number of posts and reconsidered my position. I think all things considered the police should have every advantage over the bad guys and access to tools equal to or greater than they my face.
    2A does not define what arms you can have and I believe that the Amendment should be followed to the letter. I In other words I should have the right and access to anything I may face assuming I can afford to own it.. Believing as I do it is hard for me to say that I should have the right to weapons that the police do not.

    1. I think if civilians were allowed to own the exact same equipment that law enforcement can purchase/use, then I wouldn’t have a problem with local departments purchasing/owning armored humvee’s, MRAPs, etc. (so long as there isn’t monetary abuse of taxpayer monies, but it looks like there is a lot of that)

      It’s just that I sincerely dislike how civilians are under-equipped compared to the police/military. The 2A (2nd amendment) is supposed to keep us (civilians) on par with modern battle equipment in order to keep tyranny at bay (the 2A is a direct check and balance to a government-gone-bad, and doesn’t really have much to do with fighting common crime, that’s just as a good by-product), but morons in power eroded that intention of the 2A.

      But yeah, your statement “..it is hard for me to say that I should have the right to weapons that the police do not.” I couldn’t say that either. It’s laughable at the U.K (and elsewhere) that the police can be outgunned by the criminal. We certainly don’t want that, but civilians shouldn’t be at a disadvantage either.

      We just need equal treatment (and application) of the law for law-enforcement AND civilians…that’s what I was getting at (in a long, roundabout manner, haha.)

    2. @ Reader101: I don’t know where Mc Ruger stands but my beliefs cover bayonets. While Senator Rand Paul may not be able to come up with an idea for law enforcement use of bayonets, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Alan Estevez was at least able to allude to the counter-drug and counter-terrorism task forces that may use them.

      Most people are not aware that average town PDs are not the ones that actually receive or employ the use of the bulk of 1033 program military inventory. Yet the media has spun it to appear so and thus created a false public issue.

      In reality this equipment is intended for special task forces that already utilize loaned military assets that were authorized for use by Congress to fight the War on Drugs years ago. Most people are unaware the military flies missions and works on the ground side-by-side assisting civilian law enforcement right here in the U.S. as authorized by Congress. Military personnel are required by law to accompany each asset on loan to the police.

      The counter-drug and counter-terrorism mission is quite unique with special operations that go well beyond my authorization to divulge specifics to the public. However, I can assure you bayonets do in-fact serve a civilian law enforcement purpose and I am willing to provide you at least one example:

      I ask that you traverse a newly found 1 mile drug tunnel discovered between say Nogales, Arizona and Mexico. If necessary, would you be willing to fire a round at a potential enemy encounter in these extremely cramped tunnels and risk a ricochet? Or would it be more advisable to lead with a bayonet on the end of your duty rifle?

      Another aspect civilians don’t understand is that most of this 1033 military inventory would otherwise be destroyed by the military, but instead the military has found a way to give it to civilian law enforcement. Both parties are well aware it will never be used, but is instead sold to the public as an additional source of revenue for the receiving department. Bayonets are not a prohibited item and can be sold to the public or metal scrap yards.

      There is so much about the internal workings of government that actually try to do good deeds, but the media will still always spin it for the love of a sensational story. If a little more common sense were actually applied by people towards understanding the media has transformed to no longer inform the public, but is now more of an entertainment industry and political tool, we’d be much better off.

  6. The author made a good point about this being a way to assault the 2A (2nd Amendment) even more so, just via a backdoor. I hadn’t thought of it that way. We should be careful about this in the future.

    As for police owning AR’s and modding them with ACOG’s, stubby grips, lasers, night vision, etc., I have no problem with that and I’m sure most conservatives/libertarians don’t either. Those are allowed for the civilian market for good reason (self-defense); so those items are a must-have for law enforcement.

    What I DO have a problem with is law-enforcement buying, and more importantly, using armored vehicles that are built for the battlefield. Why does a local PD need an armored vehicle (MRAP, armored Humvee, APC’s, etc.) meant to withstand a landmine, RPG, grenades, etc?? They have as much of a reason to own one as I do for self-defense.

    Many argue about this aspect of militarization, and it’s an absolute valid point; also, what about the simple aspect of taxpayer’s $$’s??

    Sure, police/sheriff’s might get federal (or state) grants, but they usually only pay a percentage; the rest is paid by the city/county if I’m not mistaken. Even if it’s a 100% federal grant, it’s you and me footing the bill from the federal (income) taxes we pay. On top of that, these vehicles are NOT cheap to maintain (think about how much gas these things drink, on top of regular maintenance).

    Unless the U.S. turns into a battlefield like that of Iraq and Afghanistan (perhaps that’s what the Marxists/progressives want), there is no reason why police need bomb-proof, armored vehicles meant for all-out-war. As a civilian, I’m not allowed to own one for self-defense, but can law enforcement really justify it either?

    One could come up with thousands of hypothetical scenarios in order to justify the purchase of various equipment (how about a missile defense system like Israel has? Never know when Mexico or Canada is going to lob a mortar this way!), and then a town’s law enforcement’s budget balloons to 1 trillion+ US Dollars which protects a population of 5,000.

    It’s just not logical with whats going on right now with the purchasing of military vehicles. If I’m not mistaken, even grenade launchers are being purchased…but I think it’s only intended for smoke grenades right now….but what if HE (high explosives) are used at some point? An excuse for such use can easily be made.

    What if these armored vehicles are used against conservative/libertarian protests like Tea Party rallies, End the Fed marches, or even Christian grass-roots events to “disperse and control the crowds”? Also, there is that aspect of the Constitution about not having a “standing army” on U.S. soil. Hmmmm…lots to think about.

  7. Coroner from New York said wound path did not rule out physical altercation. Said it didn’t give lie to officer Wilson’s initial statement. I haven’t made up my mind yet, I worked as LA for 6 years and had first hand experience with how slow things happened, and how fast stories multiplied.

  8. Yes, you can get a tomato sandwich indicted by a grand jury but it will bring out Wilson’s side of things unless sealed by a judge.

    Even if Wilson isn’t indicted I expect something from the DOJ.

  9. @ EdH: I felt the need to clarify one thing you stated. I know you are aware, but others may not be…

    Even after the Grand Jury has concluded, we still won’t know anything other than a group of people was manipulated into believing there was enough evidence to indict. Because of the loose manner in which a Grand Jury is allowed to proceed, most educated people know an indictment means absolutely nothing.

    Lawyers are not allowed in on a Grand Jury presentation and nothing is actually tried. A Grand Jury is not even considered a court and has no judge. It is really a free for all.

    An indictment means nothing more than a prosecutor, who is allowed to present any evidence they please, regardless of veracity, and without any form of cross examination, to sit in a room – and if persuasive enough, they convince a panel of average citizens that they should allow a case to proceed to a jury trial.

    Without any rules to restrain a prosecutor, they often build average citizens up to feel this is their big chance to do something grander than they normally aspire to do. With that, they usually always get their indictment.

    But indictments in no way indicate guilt, and real jurors are always instructed accordingly. Most of the so-called evidence a Grand Jury sees never makes it into the real court room because even the worst of attorneys can prove lack of standing and get it thrown out so that real evidence can actually be weighed.

    The bottom line is a Grand Jury is simply the prosecutor’s show from start to finish. And because he is allowed such an advantage to manipulate his show any way he sees fit, and without any rules of evidence, that if a “no bill” is returned – that has much more weight establishing an individual is not guilty than the easier to reach “true bill”.

    Most Grand Juries simply feel safer passing the buck to a real jury and allowing them to decide. However, this is a disservice and failure in duty because passing the buck gives the under-educated a false hope of guilt; so when the real jury returns “Not guilty” they start rioting all over again.

    So to quell that unrest, the federal prosecutors step in and violate Double-Jeopardy with a promise to re-try for civil liberty violations. Usually they never find enough evidence (ref. – George Zimmerman) and it all just fades off into the next big news story.

    It is always better to set an innocent man free as early as possible. While the officer’s life will never be the same, at least it prevents the extended damage, death and mayhem from the under-educated rioting over nothing.

  10. Reader101

    Reader I don’t know why you would suggest waiting for the Grand Jury decision. It’s pretty obvious that unless the cop is hung you’ll disagree. Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Holder all hide behind “Seeking Justice” all the time hoping the cop gets off to fuel the riots, keep the country separated and jack up the votes. You’re nuts if you think this is anymore than a political game.

    1. Did the coroner for the county Ferguson is located in release results? I thought the only person to release any results was the celebrity coroner hired by the family? And his findings were inconclusive because he did not have the clothing? Correct me if I’m wrong.

  11. Yes, the police were trying to show that it was justified to shoot an unarmed man for jay-walking by trying to smear the victim, who now can’t offer up any statements in his defense. The cop who shot him did not know about any alleged robbery. Anyone required to administer drug tests knows that marijuana residue can be detected in someone’s system 3-7 days after it was ingested. Past marijuana use does not warrant a death sentence. The autopsies as reported in the press did not reveal any evidence of a physical altercation. Lacking any evidence to the contrary, the cop killed an unarmed man for no reason. The cop did not know of any incident, and bringing up allegations that the cop was unaware of at the time of the shooting is an an after-the-fact attempt to justify killing for jay-walking.

    We’ll both have to wait and see what the grand jury comes back with.

  12. @ Reader101:

    Your inference that releasing evidence on “Big Mike’s” felony crime which has been confirmed he did commit ten minutes before police had to take him out, as well as drugs found in his system, is somehow an attempt by police to smear Michael Brown’s character?

    So let me make certain we have your position straight – you’re of the opinion those releasing information about Brown’s illegal activities are the real bad guys, rather than Brown who actually committed the felonies that resulted in the information to begin with. Got it.

    That is about as preposterous as you thinking the police are assassinating the character of child molesters whenever they release information about those crimes to the public as well.

    How can you honestly expect anyone to find your opinion credible after you’ve revealed such an inane posture on your thought processes? Your done man, just throw in the towel.

    Please stop making a fool of yourself. You’ve already shown your severe bias. We get you by now… you’re convinced no matter what anyone shows you that you’re still putting all your money on the dead criminal. Okay… we read you loud and clear. Now let it go.

  13. Reader101

    Granted a cop pointing a gun at a crowd and yelling “I’m going to shoot you” is out of line, but are you saying that force should be met with like force regardless of the property being stolen or destroyed? just asking………..
    I am just trying to picture the cops and the rioters throwing rocks and sticks at each other. Maybe just get them together and play dodge bal.l Looser has to g home.

  14. Sorry, try again. The reporter wasn’t there, and was not even working the story since she was out on leave. The next day she pulled back her statement. The newspaper she works for did not support or report the story. If it was true, you would think they would have followed up and reported it. So, it looks like the reporter was simply tweeting more rumors.

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/editors-desk/reporter-clarifies-controversial-twitter-post/article_650de303-dffa-5395-b616-649afadd96cb.html

    The Fox News link you provided is not a video from a witness. Again, it is someone who was not there simply repeating what other people were saying, none of whom apparently saw the incident. Even the so-called “witness” is on the video saying the cop shot Brown for no reason.

    I don’t hate the police. I do dislike anyone who takes it upon themselves to be judge, jury, and executioner against people who “are not like them.” The surplus military equipment, and military-like issue deployed against demonstrators was a bit excessive. Cops pointing their rifles at white demonstrators with cell phones, saying they are going to shoot them, is way over the top and is not part of any training I am aware of to “serve and protect.” Police are held to a higher standard precisely because they are given authority and responsibility that regular citizens do not have. That higher standard should be plied whether they are pointing high-powered sniper rifles at unarmed demonstrators, or gunning down jay-walkers.

  15. OH Really
    I not entirely sure what your disagreement is. It’s a bit difficult to tell from your post but it appears you think a crushed eye socket is not enough damage to warrant gun fire. You feel gun fire is excessive in this case. You are certainly entitled to your opinion so let me give you mine.
    Although there was a time when I could take care of myself against anyone, at my age and physical problems that is no longer the case. So, if a 6 foot 300 pound piece of human trash comes at me with intent to beat my ass I will put all 15 rounds of 40 cal in him without hesitation, and I don’t miss. NO ONE gets to lay a hand on me without my permission. They can throw my ass in prison if it makes them feel better but I sure am not going to suffer a broken jaw, eye socket, ribs so some thug can feel tough.
    I am not trying to look like a hard ass. However having said this I also want to mention that as a CCW holder it is our responsibility to run scenarios and seriously consider various situations. When I taught personal safety I really pushed situational awareness, running scenarios and potential response. I think it’s vital for any CCW holder. For me, I’ve decided and without going into the particulars and exceptions, I’ve basically decided you don’t put a hand on me and you stay outside my perimeter.

    1. A friend of mine (5’10”, 155) is no longer in police work in part because an attack that is similar to this one. He stopped a car known to be driven by a subject (6’5″, 290) who was involved in a domestic attack earlier in the shift. The subject rushed my friend’s car before he could react. The subject attacked through the open driver’s window, and immediately attempted to take the service pistol. My friend was dragged through the open window and the assult continued on the ground. My friend attempted to shoot the subject who was able to overpower and disarm him. The reasons my friend isn’t dead is because he was able to keep his hand on his service weapon and slide his thumb behind the trigger and he fought. His life depended on it and he fought. The subject fled with the pistol once sirens from responding officers got close.

      My friend suffered a broken thumb, fractured orbital bone, broken jaw and multiple gashes and contusions. He was placed in a drug enduced coma in order to heal. He had been a cop for 12 years. He stayed on for another three years but never got over the beating. This was 10 years ago and I can see his face in the hospital bed as clear as if it was yesterday. I can only imagine what goes through his head.

    2. I Can Agree with you. I’m just saying that what’s being said I think is alittle suspect. That an individual receives that much trauma to the eye and can still function as well as Wilson did. I’ve been Kicked,punched and hit by objects to the eye (No Trauma). But they left me incapacitaed/disoriented for a time and the worst I would never have been successful at firing a gun as well as Wilson did, Yes I do border frequent shooting at the range. I feel as you do as in protecting myself and family from any harm. But I get the feeling that too many of us are using unjustifiable force. I find it difficult to swallow saying that getting hurt is not justifiable to taking a life. Honestly said my thinking of not taking a life unless my life is in jeopardy. It’ll probably change as I age. I’ve had many a physical encounter (Fights). But not ever had I felt my life was in danger. I felt that I was either gonna win or lose, heck I’ve run from some encounters too. But today individuals are more dangerous. Also LEO’s don’t really have an option of running away. But as of this moment to me an ass whooping is not a reason to take a life, but that’s just my opinon

    3. Officer Wilson was in Officer Wilson’s shoes. M. Brown was in M. Brown’s shoes. Unlike others I happen to believe Brown attacked Wilson. I believe that Wilson shot Brown as Brown returned to finish what he began. Of course, I’ve got no more knowledge of the incident then anyone else posting here, but, I do know how incidents like this develop.

      There is a lot of assumption going on. Based on the reports that were given out within the first couple days I believed that Wilson could have been in the wrong. With the release of more information, whether in an official report or not, I am leaning toward Wilson being in the right. No one will know until the grand jury is finished with this case.

      Had M. Brown not been killed he’d have been arrested for the robbery. He would have been presumed innocent until proven guilty. Ofc. Wilson is no more guilty until proved so.

    4. I agree we won’t have a decision until the Jury gives it’s verdict It’s going to be a right verdict for some and a wrong verdict for others. As for that presumed innocent til proven guilty. My opinon is that being a LEO for as long as you have may have made you a little bias on that. I would think most who have encountered LEO’s today would disagree as would me. Just my opinon. There will be some who are treated justly and a lot who were not. Times have changed and that presumed innocent til guilty does not seem to be true these day’s just my opinon.

  16. I’ve been a cop for over 24 years. I’m an Army Vet. I have an FFL and am an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I attend rallies as non-police and donate to 2A groups. I’ve been a member of my department Crisis Response Team, Narcotics Unit, Community Policing Unit and Criminal Investigations Unit. My department is a little bigger then Ferguson.

    I’ve seen changes in police work from day one. I started out carrying a 357 magnum. Switched to a Glock 17 then a Glock 22 and now patrol carries Glock 21s and I carry a Glock 30. I started out carring a flap-jack, then a monadnuk and now an expandable baton. When I started the 870 pump was loaded in every patrol car. Now a semi-auto AR version is typical load out, with a grab bag. I initially had no ballistic vest. A couple years in we began buying our own ballistic vests. They were bulky IIIA but they did there job. Today we are issued IIIA vests that are a little thicker then a t-shirt. Swat teams used to be a couple guys with military experience armed with Mini 14s and a hunting rifle. Then we switched up to MP-5s, got some training and wore Balaclavas and ballistic vests in carriers with sewn in pouches. Today the team loads out with ARs (semi), plate armor, ballistic helmets and Rem 700 sniper rifles. The cop car used to be your V-8 family sedan with a bubble or a light bar. The radio was analog (made for some interesting people showing up on calls) and you hope you didn’t get called to an area that was in a dead spot. The PA system couldn’t be understood on a good day. Today’s cop car is more suspension than engine but still gets up and goes. It is a moving office with little room. When I started you wrote your reports on a metal tablet/pinch pad, with triplicate carbonless copies, You always kept pencils around in case you were in the rain taking the report. Yes, ink smears. Today you have an in-car computer, some departments use iPads, you have mobile WIFI and your radio is digital with a repeater in the trunk. Your reports are done on the electronic device and synch up with your department system via the WIFI. The spare tire has been removed for more electronic equipment mounts. When I started CRT we had a donated bread truck and two econoline vans with the seats taken out. No extra armor and we often talked about 270, 30-06 or 308 hunting rounds penetrating and how many of us would take a hit. When I left the team they appropriated a surplus Air Force air strip security truck circa 1970. It weighed about 20,000 lbs. It was an armored shell on an old Dodge frame. We thought we had the cream. Today they have a slightly updated surplus armored vehicle circa late 1990s. I haven’t been around it enough to even ask what it is. There are no offensive weapons on it. It is used to get team members in and out of hairy situations. They have another donated bread truck and a couple SUVs with the seats removed. We have some riot gear. Riot helmets(not ballistic) for each officer, police shields, clear plexi with police across the front and three foot batons. We’ve had these items since 1993. There is no up-armor for individual cops during croud control/riots. We may switch to faded black BDUs because they are more comfortable then the bus driver uniforms that our patrol officers currently wear. We aren’t allowed to blouse the legs or roll the sleeves. They are a little more intimidating then the bus driver uniforms. The fact is people aren’t intimidated because they know that the police follow rules. Rules that rioters aren’t bound by.

    Our police academy has increased from 3 months to 6 months over the past 24 years. We have yearly updates to inform and train us on new laws and how to deal with certain situations.

    All of these inprovements and “upgrades” have come about because of improved technology and incidents that have proven older outdated equipment weren’t up to the occasion at hand. The job at hand has shown a need for specialized units.

    I’ve been pelted with rocks and bottles. I’ve been called names and threatened. This was while securing a homicide scene. The crowd wanted to drag off the deceased. Where they would have taken the body God only knows. But, ask them who killed their friend and you were the A**H**E cops asking them to snitch.

    I don’t attempt to understand the mentality. I work with what I’ve got. I stay professional. Some situations are a complete loss. You control what you can and arrest who you can later. Onlookers and troublemakers aren’t the only people with video cameras.

    The equipment is common sense. You go with technology. You go with protection. You deploy all of this when needed.

    As far as the Ferguson case goes, it will become clear. We will know if Wilson acted lawfully or not. There will be people who agree or disagree no matter what the outcome. Which individuals will become violent because they don’t agree with a certain decision? What will the violence gain them? A pair of shoes, a couple stitches, another arrest on their record?

  17. Got a link for that to a reputable source? If not, just more rumor. And you’re really delusional if you think ALL of the news sources would choose not to report such information.

    Some friend of a friend spreading a story she thought she heard is not a reputable source. Press release or statement from the hospital, or official police report (oh, wait, that was BLANK) is what constitutes a reputable source.

  18. Cancio. I’m tired of you pencil pushers who act as if your the only one. I doubt you have been in more than I have you probably get in over your head more than I do and cry for help. So lets get that BS behind you. 2nd there’s always gonna be exceptions as for you mentioning special exceptions. People fist fight everyday without someone miracuosly dying from a special blow, we have football not everyone is dying from a special blow. Yes people have died from what we call a lucky hit. But not like your trying to make it seem. Also what’s with the name calling and attacking. What I believe is what I believe I haven’t named call you. I’m starting to believe maybe your one of those who can only say things over the web and not in person type. I’ve had a lot of physical encounters, not saying im proud of it but when a person who doesn’t know me acts as if im some person playing a video game called knock-out kings I sort of take offense then acts if no one has experience as he does I think he may be playing the fool. Bottom line this is away for us to express our thoughts on the situation. As for what really happened only God and Wilson know at this point. My thoughts still say if you have a crushed eyesocket from a punch received in a car, the last thing you do is get out and shoot 50% accurate shots if any.

    1. Really Oh Really; must of hit the nail on the head to get the dander up on the back of your neck. As usual, you are wrong. It does amaze me what you see as happened when you were not there; all your after the fact analysis fails you also. Brown turned around and from the evidence of the gun shot wounds to his arms his arms were not up in the air and many witnesses stated his was again charging the officer – an officer who had already been injured and was in probably fear for his life as he was no longer able to mount a physical defense of his person – you Oh Really would probably wanted the officer to again be attacked and then killed before he again attempted to shoot the violent felony strong armed robbery suspect. And Oh Really I was once a crimes scene photographer and I am certain I have more experience than you will ever have. The one thing, since you brought it up, seems to me you have very little to be proud of. And another thing Oh Really, people who actually know me know I will tell you and anybody else I have no problem speaking directly to their face. People trust me; one major reason I don’t lie, nor do I lie to myself nor do I make stuff appealing to my emotional female side to compensate for my ignorance…what is your problem Oh Really? Wilson was there as a police officer to enforce the law; the only criminals on the scene was the violent Brown and his partner in crime; Wilson might of pulled the trigger on the n****r but the only person responsible for what went down and the shooting was the career criminal in the making – Brown. If Brown had done the felony strong armed robbery he would be alive today. Deal with it and be thankful Wilson saved you from one day encountering Brown….all I see with Brown, by his own actions, has probably saved the American tax payer millions in wasted entitlements and the related cost in the incarceration of Brown for his crimes. Works for me. And btw Oh Really you are wrong on another point, I am not a pencil pusher – if you could only see with your eyes you would know I use a desktop computer. It is obvious to me you have no critical thinking ability.

    2. You have more experience than me in being a Crime Scene Photographer. I give considering i’ve never been a crime scene photographer. Then you go onto use a racial slur which usually means that race kicked your ass or had/has you at a major disadvantage. The big thing here is I HAVE NEVER NEEDED THE POLICE FOR ANYTHING… Maybe in 30 yrs. That may change. Never said Brown was a good guy just said I don’t believe Wilson story of taking eye trauma is all that correct. An unless you personally know Wilson. Get off his Johnson you might hurt him with the pencil. Pusher.

    3. There you go again proving my point entirely – just rack-up another reason you should not be making comments about anything you don’t have personal experience in or knowledge of; you are certainly no witness on the scene to be making false statements in fact when they are all assumed by you and coming from your world of immature fantasy you find yourself living in. And Oh Really like Wilson I have had my share of dealing with bad guys. Oh Really; and no down in my part of town, riding the city buses, every black on those buses seem to use the racial slur n****r every single day and no body but you are offended if I use it. Far as I am concern, no disrespect to honor, decent living hard working blacks; those individual deserving of being called n****rs have rightful earn that name. WGAS if you never had to call a policeperson in thirty years; you might consider this – the statements you make might make a policeperson angry at you – when you one day need one you better hope they don’t remember – they might just take there time getting to you. The same principle of not pissing off your brain surgeon just before your surgery. One thing for sure about you Oh Really – I really don’t care what you think. Take your name calling that is applied to you for good reason and stop applying that to others. Unlike you with your bias – I reserve all comment until all the facts are in. It doesn’t take a genius to see America is awash in an epidemic of violence and crimes and murder and those most likely responsible are blacks and all the crime data proves that information. What I also don’t understand are all the politicians, race baiters, etc., that refuse to state the obvious data about black crime.

  19. I agree with U both. All was going well until this racist President opened his mouth. And then he sent his little boys, al-boy, & JJ and bus loads of Chicago garbage down there to start all this trouble. Then to top it off, the GUN RUNNER, (DOJ), was sent to make things worse. The race problem is 10 fold worse since Obama took office. This officer will never get a fair trial, the Gun Runner will make sure of that. Could U Imagine if it were white people doing all this sick crap. The Gun Runner would have had the Law to open fire!! They would have been considered terrorist. I think the law controlled there self well, considering the trouble our trouble makers sent down there. Just think, WE still have a MARINE, in a Mexican jail. I bet if he were black, he’d done been out a long time ago. Home Land SECURITY, is the bunch to watch out for. Hopefully one day, we can get some real leaders running this country, and we want have all these problems, caused by a handful stupid trouble makers. Some even have the nerve to call themselves Rev. Wonder the GOOD LORD hadn’t struck them dead.

    1. And the flat-out racists rise to the top and expose themselves on this site, over and over again.

      Your BS is UN-American and drips with your bigotry and hate.

      Nice goin! Now leave the USA. We’re in The UNITED States, not some facacta country with a dictator you dream of, like Putin in Russia.

      There’s a BLACK MAN in the White House and he got there legally (without Supreme Court help, like Bush) TWICE! And there is nothing you can do about it. Chew on that bigots.

    2. HEY BEAU WHERE IS HE WRONG. OBAMA, BIDEN AND THEIR MINIONS HAVE DELIBERATELY DIVIDED THIS COUNTRY. PEOPLE HAVE BECOME RACIST BECAUSE OF Obama, HOLDER, SHARPTEN ETC. THEY HAVE SET RACE RELATIONS BACK 50 YEARS.
      AS FAR AS YOUR REPLY I’M SEEING BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

  20. I feel that people lose sight of the fact that cops (police, etc.) are just people too. They are looking to go home to their family at the end of shift. Most of them would be intimidated (with reason just don’t show it) by a person of this size (Mike Brown). It always amazes me how people say the cop should have done this or that. When you have a monster the size of Mike attacking you… I only wish that I perform as well as this officer seems to have in this situation.

    I feel that the left has once again picked an extremely poor example for their cause. So far this case seems to be the poster child for everything going to way it should have in response to the actions initiated by Mike Brown. I don’t wish harm but Mr. Brown sadly (for him) misread the consequences of his actions.

    1. M from California; well put and I agree with you. At the end of the day/shift I want all our police to go home alive and well to their families. When the chips are down and there is h…ell coming down I want a policeperson to be there and not a cruel and violent ‘career criminal in the making’ like Brown. Brown made his decision the lessons learned were found on his way to his funeral. Wilson was there in the middle of it; and if, his best decision was to put this violent felony criminal down – I will not second guess Wilson. I don’t give a r…ats a,,,ss if Brown didn’t go home to his family.

  21. Most of the gear that the media is freaking out about isn’t even military.

    Patrol rifles? Most are semi-autos no different than the ones on the shelf at Wal-Mart. Ironically, the ones not carrying patrol rifles, but pump shotguns are the ones who might actually be carrying the exact same gun as the military.

    BPVs? Police have been wearing vests long before people talked about militarizing the police. In fact, until armor carrying plates came into fashion for the military, they normally wore vest for shrapnel and not much else – while the boys in blue were consistently wearing them. Vests are MORE useful for police, who usually only face pistol rounds, than for military who have to wear rifle worthy armor to have any value in it.

    Pads, helmets, shields, etc? All of that is police riot gear. Things you wear to a RIOT (like Fergi’s). The military doesn’t use that stuff – because it has no value outside of RESTRAINED hand to hand combat. The military has been using tear gas for decades.

    MRAPs? Yes, THOSE are military. How are they any different functionally (since we don’t have many roadside bombs) from other SWAT vans? The public should be upset not because they are big and armored, but because your local police will evaporate any savings from a free vehicle in fuel costs twice over in the life of the vehicle.

    Did people complain about the militarization of the police when the USPS took all the army jeeps out of service, painted them white, and delivered the mail in them for decades?

    I’ll be the first to admit that police like to get dressed up and play Rambo, but what they are doing might look like military, but it is certainly NOT military. A military response to Fergi would have had a body count.

  22. I feel that if the Police can no longer have the Military style gear that is in question, then they will have no choice but to jump on the anti-gun band wagon for good reason. Why should they be limited to something like a 5 shot 38 revolver when the criminal can have anything he wants!

  23. Thanks G Man your information cleared up a few matters; proving the early news programming where blowing sand up everyone’s rear ends with false information, misinformation and outright lies while serving their equal justice socialist agendas. Far as I am concern when a felony criminal suspect attempts to gain control of an officer’s gun I want that criminal eliminated so society does not have to fear from the actions of a Brown again. I am sorry someone was killed, by I hold Brown responsible for that as he made bad decision and it got him killed on the way to his funeral…I am also glad Brown’s actions got him removed from the human gene pool. Sorry, but being honest. I support and honor the job a police officer has to confront and deal with while they attempt to apply and enforce the law when dealing with violent criminals; Brown would still be alive today if her respected the law. End result: Good Guy 1 and Bad Guy 0. Works for me….as does the truth

  24. @ Reader101: You couldn’t be more wrong and less informative with your bias disinformation.

    Officer Wilson was transported to the hospital. His fractured orbital socket was x-rayed and will be submitted to the Grand Jury along with extensive photographs of his severely beaten and swollen face.

    Word is now surfacing about an audio recording in the patrol car that will be very incriminating towards Brown while validating Officer Wilson’s accounts.

    As for your claim that the store owner didn’t report a robbery, you are correct. Instead it was the clerk employee that called 911 as he stood in the doorway attempting to stop Brown from leaving after the robbery.

    There was also a second witness that came from the bathroom just as Brown began his robbery and she has corroborated the entire event from beginning to end, both verbally to responding officers and with a signed sworn statement.

    It is false that the store owner denied reporting the robbery because it was already a well-known fact the store clerk made the 911 call, so that statement is pointless

    I suppose the owners supposed lack of concern was invented to play down the significance of Brown’s criminal activity just prior to his death. Nevertheless, common sense prevails because the owner was in fact involved when he turned the surveillance footage over to police evidence.

    How else did you think we’ve all been able to see the robbery all over network news?

    1. Still waiting for any official word on any evidence of a physical assault on the cop. So far, nothing, but the police department was real quick on releasing anything that would make Brown look bad. So why not evidence of an assault? Because there was none. And there was no audio recording from inside theatric car. What there is an audio recording of is the sound of six shots, a pause, and then four more. Ten shots for jay-walking? Seems to be a bit extreme. The cop committed murder, and I predict 25 to life by the time this is all over.

      Lots of comments from people who are obviously blinded by their hatred and racism towards black citizens, including the duly elected President.

    2. Plenty of people blinded by their hatred of Police are posting too.

      Wilson’s injuries were known and reported to the public the day after the shooting. Wilson being injured and defending himself doesn’t meet the narrative put forth by race baiters and the Main Stream Media, so it was ignored.

      If you had half a clue you’d understand that “official” reports will not be released until after the Grand Jury decides to indict or not.

      If you don’t think a fractured orbital bone is life threatening then let someone crack you in the head a few times. You might feel different about it. You might wish you had a gun to defend yourself.

      http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

      http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/18/youtube-video-captures-purported-witness-backing-police-version-in-ferguson/

  25. Oh Really let me explain something to you and I will be honest with you. First off I respect and honor police officers and the job they have to do. I am often mistaken for a police officer and yet am not and that despite I have a career history in security carrying both concealed carry and expose permits / licenses. And hear the difference of an honest citizen and a career criminal want-ta-bee. I once had the police, all 76 officers, pointing high powered rifles and shotguns at me in the attempt to arrest me [all charges later dropped and dismissed]; I won’t lie to you when they ran my name through NCIC and BATF I had no criminal record but I did own or at one time owned an extensive firearm collection including some weapons most police will never see or use in their lifetimes. Some of those weapons were similar to military weapons found all over the world and were legal to own. The police had every right to fear my capabilities as my skill level is high and excellent and anyone who researched my name knew I was shooting competition style almost every weekend. Some of those weapons I used to engage targets at range out to 1,500 yards. Sometimes shooting over 10,000 rounds a weekend.
    ____
    I had broken no laws and had no fear of the police who were only doing their job. I will point out I am blind in one eye, and also totally deaf in one ear and I am a disabled person unable without support to bend down without some assistance or support. That doesn’t mean I could not engage a target anywhere out to 1,500 yards and I am very good at what I learned:
    ____
    At no time did I counter a police command and I did precisely as I was told to do. I also remained in total control of the situation even though at that time I realized I was wearing the absolutely wrong type of clothes as I was wearing a safari style shirt and pants that had many pockets that could hide almost anything. What I did do was asked for one police officer to identify himself I could surrender to, every officer when I came out in the open to them was shouting at me. And I made sure at no time did I move or raise my hands and arms. I informed the one officer what I just related as to my personal state/disabilities and then I told the officer I was surrendering to him and I was going to turn my back to him and held my hands together behind my back so he could approach me with his safety ensured and if necessary he could cuff me and he did, after he patted me down for weapons, he wanted me to get down on my knees which I could not physically do and I explain to him; he walked me backwards and sat me on steps behind me. The fun part when an officer, vice officer came running out of no where, he attempted to take credit for my arrested and he was in homeless street clothes and flit. He wanted to read me my ‘rights’: I took one look at him and asked, “…who in f$#@ are you”? Where is your badge and identification which he couldn’t produce – shot is pride of arrest down – I turned of the elderly officer who I surrendered to and ask him as he was in proper police uniform pressed and shine to military inspection quality if he would read me my rights as I would be honored to have those rights given me by a proud spit and shine officer.
    ____
    I knew I had nothing to fear from an arrest, I also understood the job and function the police has to do. I offered no resistance. BTW the ass of a plain clothes homeless police supervisor called my home in the attempt get me to come out earlier to the waiting police; I told him I was watching a movie I have waited twenty-five years to watch and I was going no where until that movie was over or there would be hell to pay and trouble on both sides. The idiot asked why, and you are going to love this answer/reply to that idiot; I said, “Give me my MTV”, slammed the phone down and went back to watch Kim Novac in her performance of ‘Of Human Bondage.” The police called back at the precise second the movie credits ended. Four days later all that was heard on MTV was “Give me my MTV.” No one had any fear from me. I respect the professionalism shown me that day and the respect I was given even when handcuffed and escort to jail. I repeat all charges were vacated, no charges filed and all charges dismissed and the judge personally came to me with admiration for the firearms I was competent in. It is not many times a superior court judge takes time to talk with you and in the end heartily shakes your hand. Sure beats being shot dead for one’s stupidity and violent behavior.
    ____
    Brown was a strong armed robber and violent thug and attacked a police officer and attempted to gain control of an officers firearms along with a whole mess of other felonies he committed that includes Federal Crimes. His unprovoked attack on a police officer demonstrated just how violent Brown was All Brown had to do was stand still and comply with the officer; Brown made several wrong decisions and he managed to get himself killed. Boo Hooooo; another violent black criminal removed from the human gene pool because of his stupidity. Works for me.

    1. Alright I agree with some of what you said, But you do what you got to do in a situation. But being arrested wrongly, saying you were wearing the wrong clothe’s. Is giving in to BS. We all have tough jobs, if the LEO’s can’t hack it quit. You don’t see us carrying civilians shooting unarmed people. Yes the Job of a LEO can be tough. But the LEO’s today seem to be nothing but s Gang with a badge and the willingness to kill on the drop of a hat. Brown did not kill, maim or permanently kill anyone. Yes he did bad things and should have been punished by a jury. He did not deserve to be killed. Shot at 11 times. Lastly the LEO knew nothing of his criminal history at the time. So he (Brown) could have been any Rebellious person/child at the time. If I’m wrong and comit an offense im fine of owning up with it when engaged with a LEO, But If engaged wrongly I will not willingly accept the doings of a LEO with a god complex. He simply is a person with a job. Just as me it doesn’t make them or him a GOD…

    2. Oh Really, quit playing the fool; or do you enjoy displaying to the world how uneducated and in-experienced you are. Quoting you, “Brown did not kill, maim or permanently kill anyone.” Let me clue you in from personal experience something you obvious are to stupid to know. Back in the 70s Santa Paula, California two men got into a argument, both were drunk, one threw a punch and the other man defended himself; the defender named Bob XXXXXXX hit his attacker only once driving the broken lower jaw back into brain of the attacker – the attacker dead before he hit the floor the coroner stated in the trial. The defender had started the argument and was convicted of second degree murder sentenced to two years in prison. In the 1980s Fresno, a man whose apartment had repeatedly been broken in on leaving his apartment realized the forgot his wallet and returned and discovered a man had already again broken into his apartment and was caught with the wallet and other items of the renter. A fight broke out when the robber attempted made an attack and he was struck with one horrific blow to the left side of his head that crushed his skull and he later died of the injury days later. Making a death bed statement the robber claimed he was attacked without provocation and had been invited into the apartment. Persons who had witnessed the renter leave and then moments later return were not allowed to testify at the trial an aggressive DA using the military career of a highly decorated Veteran of two tours in Vietnam with six bronze stars and eight battle stars, two purple hearts, against the apartment renter; convicted of second degree murder that man was sentenced to eight years. At that trial the past criminal history of residential burglaries and strong armed robberies of the man killed was not allow to be heard in court. I know of one other incident where a single blow killed a man; my point has been made.
      ____
      What I object about you Oh Really, you were not there in the thick of it and you are selecting what you want to hear and tainting the situation with our own bias and stupidity and lack of knowledge. I am here to tell you, as I am a person who has been in the thick of it several times where the other person was intent on doing me grievous harm, injury or death. When situations happen under those situations you fight to win or you will be dead. What is hateful are all the after the fact idiots with no real evidence before them who taint the situation according to their bias and hatred. And you Oh Really you are making statement of fact you have no real knowledge – better said your are making lies and the worst of it you believe your own lies. I will wait this out until all the facts are heard. And Oh Really, another point and of something you have no knowledge; police officers are protected by law and do not legally have to present a statement or provide facts for a period of seven days after an incident and they can seek aid and help from an attorney, police unions put that into law to protect their members.

  26. @ Oh Really or 6GunEddie or Whomever you are: I’m not going to waste much more time with you. You are way off base here and have completely missed the point. Or rather you get the point, but just don’t care.

    Either way, the focus here is about this particular event in time and how it went down. All the google searches in the world on racial oppression that has occurred everywhere else and at other times will never justify why you could care less that a police officer was bum-rushed through his window and brutally attacked to the point of a facial fracture for no reason other than for telling a couple of idiots to get out of the middle of the street.

    And despite your CAPS-LOCK FIT OF RAGE, everyone knows the officer was unaware Brown had just robbed a convenience store. That is what makes the officer so innocent, and yet makes Brown so much more culpable. He was rife with guilt and thought the officer was there to arrest him for his crime.

    So Brown did what any decent human being would do in his predicament and commenced to beating the shit out of the officer. No big deal right? Unlike most humans, when an officer dawns their badge and uniform it makes them completely immune to any fear and pain that may be inflicted upon their body during duty hours. He can take it. Besides, even if Officer Wilson hasn’t a racist bone in his body he still had this beating coming because I’m sure some cop somewhere else in this country did.

    But according to you the officer had no business putting himself in harm’s way to begin with as he mistakenly placed his face in front of Brown’s unexpected charging fists. Yup, instead he should have let those boys continue strolling down the middle of the street like fools and kept on driving just in case one of them might become confrontational.

    No wait, I have a better one. This officer with an exemplary career record got up that day and decided for no other reason he was going to throw it all away. So he decided he was going to drive into the blackest neighborhood he could find and shoot dead a black man in broad daylight with lots of other black citizens watching. Yeah I like that scenario best… LET’S RIOT!!!

    The reality is there is no question now that Brown was in fact a criminal as viewed undisputed in the video committing felony robbery at a convenience store. But I guess that doesn’t count since Officer Wilson didn’t know about it. There is also no disputing Brown was seen acting erratic and aggressively shoving and charging at the store clerk. But we must ignore that as well. So then Brown, who has just robbed a store, decides it’s a good idea to walk in the middle of a street right in front of a passing officer. But there’s nothing unusual to be concerned about there either. When Officer Brown thinks he’s doing his duty to get Brown out of the street, he innocently allows Brown to approach his open window. But instead of conversation, Officer Wilson is met with a barrage of massive fists that swell his face and fracture an eye socket. But again, we mustn’t allow that to cloud our judgment of Brown either.

    So not until Officer Wilson draws his gun and fires to stop the assault upon his body do we need to become concerned. But our concern should not be for the officer according to you… instead our hearts should pour out to a poor helpless Brown; because after all, he is the true innocent victim here.

    Seriously you are the real riot here. It is simply beyond comprehension how you can allow your mind to spin such an awful situation and warp it in favor of the obvious bad guy. You should be ashamed.

    1. Alright I do not know if Wilson is racist. I do not know why a person who has no criminal history wakes up one day and goes on a killing spree. But trying to make me swallow that a LEO come’s upon 2 guys committing an Offense. Let’s them Approach his vehicle putting himself in a defensive situation (BS). Then is repeatedly punched through the window of his vehicle, He didn’t lean out of the way or even drive off/away. But is hit in the face so bad to cause injury. But somehow manages to get out of his vehicle to fire 11 shots from his pistol killing an individual who appears to not have been a lethal threat at that time, alright he struck the officer(Officers Testimony). If it was me no way I’m letting officer out of vehicle to shoot me even though it’s nearly impossible to shoot straight with an eye injury in that short of time, unless it didn’t go down that way. People and LEO’s LIE for various reasons. If you believe that story I’ll sell you the Presidential White House. You don’t have to waste time with me. But I know LEO procedures and I’ve been attacked before and the story as your telling doesn’t make sense. Do me a favor if your Brown does Officer Wilson shoot you as story told. Better yet if your Wilson can you shoot Brown as told. Be Honest none of that TJ Hooker or Action Jackson tv/movie wishful thinking.

  27. Each and every creature on this earth has the natural right to protect themselves and their family and has the right to feed themselves and their family by whatever means possible. The right of self-preservation cannot be granted nor taken away by government. It is granted you by the creator due to the simple fact that you exist.
    When drafting the Bill of Rights, the founders looked back through their experience and saw the specific freedoms that they had fought for and the tools that had enabled them to break the bonds of tyranny.
    By an overwhelming majority, the reason the 2nd Amendment was included was not for the ability of obtaining food, but for the protection and ability of fighting off oppressive government – An un-armed citizenry is helpless against an oppressive government.
    Should the Republic they created ever become coercive and unjust, they understood that the people MUST be able to defend themselves and physically able to fight against that government. In short, the ‘right of the people to keep and bear arms’ was the right of the people to protect themselves, by force, If necessary, from their own government.
    Thomas Jefferson:
    “The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … ”
    “The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.”
    “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”
    Samuel Adams
    “And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …”

    Richard Henry Lee
    “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”

  28. If the local Police can militarize like Ferguson,Mo. did then the common American MUST have the right to bear arms against a Domestic Enemy.

  29. I’m not sure why the story portrays this as a Second Amendment issue when it’s actually police militarization is more of a Fourth Amendment issue. The government throws money at law enforcement agencies for the War on Drugs or Homeland Security, and they go crazy buying toys (like tanks and APC’s) which have no place on American streets being used against Americans. It’s easy to play the quisling and cheer on the blue-clad ranks of the SWAT teams as they march against people who look different than you or use drugs you don’t agree with. Just remember though, these same SWAT teams are the ones that are going to be battering down your door and shooting your dogs at 3am because they got a wrong address or an anonymous informant told them you have a scary-looking rifle or a shotgun with a barrel that’s a half-inch too short (remember Waco? Ruby Ridge?).

    1. Exactly. If we don’t remember the lessons of Ruby Ridge and Waco we are in for a rough ride in this country. The last thing we need is the government throwing it’s weight around like that. They won’t even go where they might actually need military type weapons which is on the border where the drug gangs are terrorizing people. It’s much easier to terrorize the local people yourself and there are too many that are willing to do that if you give them the chance and the hint that they should. Maybe when the author’s grandparents are the ones that die when the SWAT team knocks down their door by mistake and puts them on the floor with a foot on their neck and an M4 in their ear. then he will understand that excessive showing of force against civilians isn’t a good idea. I understand breaking out the hats and bats in a place like Ferguson but it happens far too often in other situations in this country. Military grade armored personnel carriers are too much. They are terrorizing people with those things. And it is extremely rare that they are needed. We have laws against the military being used as police in this country. We shouldn’t go around those laws by making the police into a de facto military force.

  30. Alright Ignorant I am Not. You brought out some points unthought of. But whens the last time a Black Officer has made the news for this type of shooting. Or even a Hispanic, or even Asian. So the Racial thing tends to be a point. But let’s not go Racial. Where im from because you get hit with a Fist or Foot does not mean that you pull your weapon and kill that individual. The world appears to believe that as so seems you. Especially it seems as most LEO’s. Look at the retired Cop in the movie theater, As well as others. People are putting themselves in harm’s way and claiming self defense from an unarmed person. If you can’t defend yourself physically so shouldn’t be trying to be in harms way, yes there’s always an exception. Back to Brown. THE OFFICER DID NOT KNOW BROWN WAS A SUSPECT WHEN HE ENCOUNTERED HIM (Are we straight on that) Why would a LEO let a suspect walk up to him and punch him in the eye (BS.) Wait then he perfectly executes the guy after being hit in the eye socket (more BS) Wait he’s a super LEO. I’ve been punched and kicked in the eye before and being able to shoot straight was not possible. But you’ve gotten me off target. G Man it may be hard to cope with but Police are not the Police of yesterday. That being said neither are the bad guys. But I fear too much TV and movies have corrupted and made anxious these individuals. They are rude, obnoxious and to give them weapons that a Military would use for war is insane. When the Bad guys have light armored vehicles it might then be justified. MY OPINION YOU NEVER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CLAIM SELF DEFENSE. WHEN YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION OR won’t run away. Yes there are situations that a person’s life are in jeopardy for their lives but none that I’ve seen lately and yes I know there out there. One last thing Google or search however you do it ans see which Race has had these situations happen to them the most. I know there are some different race individuals that are bad just like some LEO’s are Unjustified in their actions.

    1. Oh Really: just last week. What is the matter with you Oh Really you don’t follow the news.? You better hope Oh Really one of these black criminals who knows martial arts and will use that to kill you you don’t have to face. A safety pin can kill if you know how to use it. A person, as well as the police, has a legal right to defend themselves when threatened or harmed and you don’t have to wait until you are harmed or dead to protect yourself. People can be and are killed by others who use only their hands.
      ____
      There is only one person responsible for Brown’s death and that was Brown. He had just performed a strong armed robbery and thief. He received stolen property, had stolen property in his possession, he transferred the stolen property, he committed violent assault and battery on a police officer, possibly causing the officer to lose conscience, he attempted to gain control of the police officer’s firearm and with his hand on the weapon in violation of Federal Law in the attempt to use a firearm during the commission of a crime of violence that merits prison time enhancement, the firearm had bullets in it and one in the chamber also in this criminals hands a violation of Federal Law that merits additional prison time enhancements, he made no attempt to register the illegally attempted to possess firearm, a weapon, a firearm was attempted to be used in the commission of a crime, he possibly fired the firearm, did felony assault on a police officers doing him bodily harm. Brown resisted arrest, he attempt to flee from a violent crime on a police officer. When ordered to stop, he turned around to again charge or was in motion to attack the police officer with a bum’s rush receiving five shots to the front of his body and two shots in the head. Yes sir, let’s go after the police officer for his attempt to enforce the law. One criminal violence after another; I repeat there is only one person responsible for his death and that is Brown. Stop with all the he was such a sweet innocent teenaged baby; he was a thuggish, violent, a brute 6′ 4″ tall and weighs 322 pounds and by every definition of the law a full grown man. He is no innocent teenager; and he got exactly what he deserved. If Wilson was indeed rendered unconscious and was not able to mount a viable physical defense he has every right to shoot Brown and shoot to kill.
      _____
      Two things make me angry; one, the officer didn’t unload his entire magazine on the violent criminal; and, two I want to see this office receive and award for doing his job of protecting himself and the rest of society from the violent career criminal want-ta-be. I want to see Wilson given a $50,000 cash bonus from his community for doing his job as a policeman is supposed to act. If Brown didn’t want to get shot and killed he should not of done the strong armed robbery and resorted to the actions that got him killed. Seems to me Brown got that education he wanted – and it will take him to his grave.
      ____
      Now ask yourself why has not Brown’s partner in crimes not been arrested and since Brown died because in part of his actions why has not his partner been charged with murder. Ohhh, BTW his partner in crimes got one of those cigars, so receiving stolen property and having stolen property in his possession the penalty is usually 5 to 15 years in the state prison.
      ____
      When blacks are rioting, burning buildings, looting, burning cars, damaging property and are aiding and abetting the crimes of those persons responsible for an armed robbery and assault and battery on a police officer. I want to see those responding officers dressed in the best equipment possible to keep themselves safe. Blacks don’t want to be shot and killed; the solution is simple don’t do the crimes and murders and the police have not reason to suit up and shot black criminals dead. I for one wish the violence and lawlessness of the riot was squashed the very first night putting it to an immediate end. I don ‘t care how many bodies of rioters and looter are found next morning on the street and alley ways or in the building which they attempt to loot or burn down. Tuff justice works for me….so does plenty of ammunition.

    2. AGAIN LEO DID NOT DID NOT KNOW THAT BROWN WAS A SUSPECT WHEN HE ENCOUNTERED HIM. Since a 6’4 300lbs. Black kid scares you then maybe LEO should have called for back-up. I find the whole story smells. Things today with the Government seem to smell these days. Some no bad sushi when we smell it some don’t. Your not very bright. If this LEO made so many mistakes from letting a UNARMED suspect, Alright he was Black and 6’4 300lbs, get the best of him. How come he distanced himself from would be attacker then fired the lethal shots. When your family member meets would be LEO drops his cell phone and is shot to death for his cellphone, we’ll see what tune your blowing then. All this is, is you covering for some complex your lacking. I fear that you fear black people especially 6’4 teenagers. Let’s stop talking about what the kid may have done or didn’t or would have an address how a LEO made so many mistakes and took the life of a person. who had no weapon just 2 hands and feet oh just like the officer did. How a trained physically in shape LEO felt he had too tv/movie like end a life because he couldn’t wait for back-up. Grow a pair all Black Men are not thugs who want to rob and kick your butt, just as not all White Men run away or use there weapons when they see a black man. Brown may have committed crimes. But I believe the Bible says an eye for an eye, and Thou shall not Kill. Your so much against the black 6’4 KID. Show me where the LEO feared for his life and HAD TO SHOOT TO KILL AN UNARMED PERSON, JUST LIKE ZIMMERMAN. Maybe if his defensive training didn’t take he shouldn’t be a cop or maybe waited for backup. It seems like the black guy is always wanting to kill someone with his bare hands and the White LEO is always shooting killing them claiming self defense. Ive had fights with Black/White/Hispanic guys some in 6’4 range didn’t pull out my Pistol and shoot em dead. I’m still living. Not physically scarred fom any said encounter.

    3. There ain’t nothing like a remote viewing retard to stir up trouble. You do NOT know the facts of this case. And if you think a 6’4″, 300 lb. man isn’t a danger to your life you aren’t very smart. I used to know people out in football games and they were wearing helmets. And that was just from a forearm shiver. I weighed 180 lbs. at the time. Thinking someone is incapable of hurting you seriously with their hands is just insane. And maybe “where you come from” it’s ok to attack a cop but that isn’t true of any place I’ve ever lived or known about. Maybe back in the 1950’s that was the case in some places but back then the only cops around were NFL linebacker size themselves and they were unlikely to ever be taken out by a single attacker. That’s just how that was. If you think we should go back to that system maybe I can introduce you to a friend of mine who had half his skull removed after an encounter with a LEO from that era. Trust me the way things are now is better.

      And this crap about this only happening to blacks is pure BS. A friend of mine had twins. One had to watch as the local LEO’s let his brother drown knowing he was drunk out of his mind. They wouldn’t let his twin save him. He drowned in about 2 feet of water. So plenty of abuses exist no matter what you skin color is. “Maybe” that cop acted badly. I don’t know. Neither do you. But as long as black people insist on dragging race into everything they are just packing more powder into the keg and one of these days it’s going to blow. If you think that’s a good thing you’re insane. Nothing good will come of it. Many people will die and you still won’t change what’s in people’s hearts. Stop thinking you’re a special kind of victim. Maybe I’ll start pointing out that my ancestors had it far worse than yours ever did. Unless yours walked on the Trail Of Tears you aren’t the one with the biggest gripe. Mine did walk that trail. You don’t hear me crying about it every 5 minutes. It will never be the past as long as you keep demanding that people see it as the present. Noting could be further from the truth. You don’t even realize how much progress was made in the 60’s. Now race demonstration are usually more about looting than anything else. That does nothing for race relations except make them worse. Calling for people to kill cops is like asking the hangman to hurry up and hang you. You won’t win that argument with force. You don’t have a prayer. Ghandi should be your example. Or like me you can look to MLK. Violence never works. If you did get a new government in power it would almost certainly be worse than what we have now. You need to look around at how these things turn out when people turn against the government like so many are suggesting. It will be nothing but pain.

  31. I do not think the police should have tank like vehicles with sniper nest pointing loaded m1a1 machine guns at citizens. or using military assult tactics just to serve a warrent. This is why the 2A is so important. How can a civilian population protect it’s self from a goverment out of control if it is not alowed to equipt it’s self with equal fire power. Any armed force can control a population if it disarms anyone who may oppose them. Too many police already have a “I AM THE AUTHORITY” do as I say or else attitude, with no reguard to your rights or even innocents. 2A was put in place to insure that the citizens would have a means to protect it’s self from a goverment out of control. Not just home protection or hunting. Thats why gun controll laws are so unfair, and unconstitutional.

  32. @ 6GunEddie: I have to assume you are way behind on your news; otherwise there is no explanation any reasonable person could ever arrive at such an opinion as you have. You really should attempt to stay abreast of all the official releases of information revealed as of late.

    If in fact you are up to speed, then I find it atrocious behavior for anyone that continues to feel as you do after discovering that Brown had committed a felony robbery just moments before he attacked Officer Wilson and fractured the officer’s eye socket.

    Regardless whether you did or did not lacked that specific knowledge before you passed judgment, I am more disappointed that you have fallen prey to the rhetoric that incorrectly preaches both parties must be armed before lethal force is authorized.

    A victim only needs to fear for their life to use deadly force, and I think this 6 foot 4, 300 pound monster that was ballsy enough to commence a beating on an officer through his police cruiser’s window and fracture his orbital socket is justification enough for anyone. And yes, it is lawful to shoot a fleeing felon that has just caved your eye socket in while attempting to murder you.

    So I ask you honestly, if this same EXACT scenario had unfolded but instead with a black officer, on the same street, in front of the same people, but Michael Brown was instead a white guy – would we have seen any of these protests and rioting by blacks? I think we both know the honest answer is an emphatic “NO”.

    So given that an officer was rightfully forced to defend his life and no longer at issue here, then the only thing left is the obvious difference between the skin colors of these two men. So as hard as that is to accept, the stone-cold reality is that the appalling actions of this community, merely over the color of an officer’s skin, is where the real prejudices lay – which is undeniably racism at its very core.

    Furthermore, the point of protesting is to provide citizens the right to peacefully assemble in order that they may redress their government over reasonable grievances in an effort to resolve legitimate issues. But without knowing anything more than a white officer had to shoot a black man during the course of his duties, this black community immediately began an unnecessary protest which led to looting and other crimes night after night.

    How can that ever be considered productive when they had no idea exactly what it was they were protesting for? I mean even if the government wanted to appeal to their protests, what exactly were the legitimate issue they were supposed to address? Raise the dead? Undo Browns assault on the officer? Ignore the video showing the strong-arm robbery moments?

    I can appreciate that you usually agree with me, so please know that I am not naïve to the true abuses by bad cops growing exponentially every day. But this was not one of those cases and anyone should have the sense enough to see that by now.

    So assuming you chose to continue to opine this is still justification enough to fuel this community’s unjust rage, then I have no choice but to consider you as ignorant and bigoted as the rest of these degenerates.

    1. I briefly saw a clip on TV today about the MTV Video Music Awards last night. Some MC was trying to give a shout out to the thug that got shot. What’s that all about? Why do these people think they’re ENTITLED to do bad things, and then glorify bad things on a national TV show that are supposed to be about music? Just one reason I’m never watching the VMA’s or buying any type of rap music, or even R&B. If you do, you’re just putting money in the pockets of people who are perpetuating this entitlement to random violence.

      Sometimes I’m half liberal, half conservative, but it’s times like these when I realize we need strong conservative Republican leadership again in this country.

    2. @G-Man: My VMA post was supposed to be a general post, not under yours, but hey, that’s a good post you made!

    3. No broken eye socket. In fact, no evidence has been reported of anything related to a physical altercation other than the cop shooting an unarmed man. The police report was largely blank. No evidence the cop was assaulted. The cop drove himself away from the scene, in the vehicle that was later claimed to have been the start of the altercation. No examination of that vehicle has been reported. The cop did not know of any alleged robbery at the time of the shooting, plus, the store owner is claiming he did not report any robbery. All three autopsies report the same six bullet wounds; four in the right arm and two in the head. The head wounds could have occurred as the victim was kneeling on the ground.

      And the dead victim obviously can’t speak in his own defense.

  33. Think there’s a growing trend of militarization amongst the police? Here’s a few facts to go with the typical knee jerking.

    [img]http://northcarolinaroom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/gatlinggun1895.jpg?w=480&h=325[/img]

    The above photo shows officers of the Winston, North Carolina Police Department posing with the agency *Gatling Gun*. The photo is dated 1894. I can show you photos from nearly every decade since with officers using BAR’s, Thompson submachine guns, armored motorcycles and cars, etc. The list goes on and on throughout modern history. The use of this type of equipment is nothing new. A simple search will show you that. Of course, it’s easier to rely on the drivel the media puts out, whether it’s CNN or Fox. There is no growing trend to arm the police in military fashion, any more than we’re all being trained to heard citizens into FEMA camps. The media has fanned the flames with photos of officers using AR-15 rifles and carbines. The AR platform is now used for everything from target shooting to hunting, how is this excessively military?

    Can this equipment be mishandled? Absolutely. Are there times when this occurs? Yes there are. These are issues of mindset and training. If we were operating under this type of false logic it would be illegal for citizens to driver a car, since most are incompetent in it’s operation. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

  34. Given the questionable level of training, and poor command structure, shown by the County and Local PDs in the Furguson, the lethality of the equipment deployed was excessive. There were no active shooters threatening the police in the first few days. The heavy equipment rolled out to ‘control’ the peaceful protestors, while the looters were ignored.
    I would like to hear a rational argument for deploying of M16 and M4 rifles facing a large group of peaceful protestors. If one attacker emerges from the crowd and attacks an officer, firing on that individual unleashes projectiles that likely will penetrate the target and injure anybody behind him. Firing in a panic sprays bullets into a crowd that can take out anyone within hundreds of yards. The choice of weapons shows really poor judgement of the situation, unless, as some posters to this discussion have indicated, the protestors are considered ‘sub-human animals’ in which case I guess mass casualties are considered justified.
    The frequently voiced attitude that an LEOs primary mission is “to go home to my family at night” is really disturbing. If that’s really the case, we have a problem of US, the potential threats, versus THEM, the heavily armed enforcers who will do whatever they need to protect themselves. That’s a long way from the motto, “To Serve and Protect”. I hope the majority of our police still believe that they are there for a higher purpose than their personal survival.

  35. Having been in LA during the RK riots, my squad arrested 160 in one morning. And the N. Hollywood shootout. I wasn’t at the scene, but wanted to be. If these idiot protesters don’t want to sufficiently want to arm and equip the police, don’t ask them to come to your riots. They could pull an Obama and be “Vigilant”…

  36. If you obay the law you don’t need to fear police. As for all the law abiding citizens, we should be able to own what ever the police or military have. Can we really trust the government anymore?

  37. What is the purpose of camouflaged paratrooper jump pants with 10 pockets bloused into COMBAT boots???? What is the purpose military armoured personnel carriers with .50 cal machine gun mounted on top?
    Some police dept have repainted the APC black to sort of hide the military appearance. Primary purpose is INTIMIDATION, reducing the fear of GOD and increasing the fear of the police. There is an automatic personality change that comes with those camos, it isn’t pleasant and it never will be, they have the power and are going to use it. The police departments purpose is to serve and attempt to protect. The mindset that gets issued with military uniforms (camouflaged BDU- Battle Dress Uniform- formerly know as “fatigues”) is victory, not a stalemate, and it generally takes BODIES to have a victory. Take a look at prewar Germany and what a militarized police depart can and will do. If a revolution should ever happen again, the vast majority of the police and sheriff’s departments, along with highway patrols will be federalized, and then they will be properly dressed….

    As to the proliferation of so many “bad assed” soldier looking weapons and the shouting of ASSAULT Weapon – it is our own fault…. It is very MACHO to dress up in your deer hunting camos (game animals spook at movement) taking your Semi-auto loader with the banana clip, pistol grip and collapsible stock and going out to shoot up a few traffic signs. Or walk into a store with it slung over your shoulder- JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN……….. Look at me and my soldier’s gun…… The “grease gun” was never produced in a semi auto for the civilian market, neither were the M1 Garrand or any of the variations of the M1 carbine. No real interest was expressed in being a wanna- be soldier. No body went around playing soldier with paint guns because we had out grown playing cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians and Fort by the time we were 12-13…… After WW2, surplus military rifles and carbines were offered for sale- MAIL ORDER- even in NYS… At 18 years of age I was able to buy an Enfield 303- complete with bayonet for 19.95. I had it modified with a Monte Carlo stock, a scope and re-chambered for readily available US ammo. It was still a military weapon and could have still been used in combat. If all of the AR look- a-likes came with wood stocks and forearms (non ventilated) perhaps the anti gun idiots wouldn’t fall all over themselves screaming about “ASSAULT” weapons.
    I am more than old enough to see how far we have let the control of our government slip away from us, one baby step at a time. Why do we insist on adding fuel to the fire with our soldier look a like weapons???

  38. I used to carry an automatic weapon while in a combat zone. that was because we could run up against an opposing armed force. What opposing armed force are the police going to run up against requiring multiple automatic weapons? OSU bought an MRAP purportedly for crowd control. I know OSU students can get loud and noisy, but a MINE RESISTANT ARMORED PERSONNEL vehicle with machine gun turrets?

  39. I strongly support the 2nd Amendment, I strongly support the others too! I took an oath 30 years ago to defend The Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I find the militarization of the police a very scary change. It is not that they have this equipment, it is how they use it. I have the right to arm myself, I do not have the right to point my weapon at my neighbor unless he poses an immediate serious threat. Why do the police see every encounter as life or death – their training to distrust everyone? They do not need it to serve a warrant, they do not need to use flash bangs on kids in cribs. The officers I see in so many of the photos from there have horrible training or are cowardly people. I have seen so many photos from not only Fergusson with a gun pointed directly at an unarmed person with their fingers in the trigger well. I have seen LE in my town, finger on trigger and pointing their weapon at me and my friends that ride motorcycles during our local rally. Look into the recent history of police shooting New York, LA… how many shots do they fire that miss? How many shots did they take hit an innocent bystander? I remember many time how hundreds of rounds discharged and only a few hit the target. Is the answer to this more bullets in the clip or more training?

    I support GOOD police. I wish they would consider using PEACE OFFICER rather than LAW ENFORCMENT. Their job is to keep the peace, not beat us into submission. I know good LE persons, I know they exist, I know many would not be out to take away my 2nd amendment rights – BUT how many would? The NAZI were successful because many just followed orders. The police have no problems taking away 4th amendment right (ever heard of Stop and Frisk?), 1st Amendment rights to protest and assemble? What makes other CTD reader think these same officers would stand up for the 2nd Amendment? We are all entitled to all the rights of being an American. I support all the rights for all of us, including innocent until proven guilty, freedom to assemble, freedom of speech, Equal treatment under the law, and most import to the rest of our freedoms “the right to keep and bear arms”. I fear fascist statist (someone that believe in the ultimate power of the state) more than liberals. Just look at the post Katrina in New Orleans if you think the police are on the side of law abiding armed citizens. I ask what weight the 2nd amendment would have once they label us all criminals and we are living in a fascist state. I feel it is time for LE to realize they escalate too many incidents, and use too much force. I feel it is time to demilitarize the police – before it is too late.

  40. Here is a simple suggestion for blacks; stop with all the violence and crimes, all the shootings and murders, the rapes and looting – and guess what the police won’t have to show up. Sire wish just once; riots, violence and property loss, looting and damage like these were put down the very first day; bodies all around if need be. I have no argument with people engaging in peaceful protest and respect society and the police; however, if they are going to respond with violence – follow the law and stop pampering these street thugs, looters and rioters.

    1. @KENNEDY: Your reply is as ignorant as they come. Jaime Cancio is 100% correct with the way things should be in this country.

  41. The police do not need to be armed in military type gear. My personal opinion is that police as an entire entity have crossed over a line and probably need to reel themselves back in, or be reeled in by their employers.

  42. There is a big difference between our AR-15s and our local PD now with MRAPs, full auto M-4s, M-79 grenade launchers and Hueys all courtesy of the military surplus system. I think it is incorrect to say they are equivalent under the 2nd A.

    And now that our local PD has all those things, guess what happened when some homeless guy threatened to commit suicide on the side of a local road – about 12 of them showed up in full body armor, with the MRAP and the M-4s all for a guy with a knife threatening to kill himself. So do I think the military equipment leads the PD to want to use it if they have it – absolutely!

  43. Good post AJ.

    My only concern with equipment is that if it is good enough for the police to protect themselves it should also me available to law abiding Americans to do the same. Perhaps even more so.
    Remember this always; Every creature on earth has the God Given right to protect themselves, family and home by virtue of their existence. The Second Amendment does not even enter into it…
    The Constitution address the defense of Liberty. To that end the government should never have arms that that are not available to me.

    “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

  44. It is most interesting on how long on opinion and how short of facts this article really is.

    And that in essence is the crux of the entire debate. A lot of rhetoric on both sides and almost a complete lack of facts.

    So let’s start with some facts: 1) the Murder/homicide rate has been steadily declining for the past number of decades.

    Fact 2) If anything, the country AS A WHOLE is much quieter, less dangerous and MORE safe.

    Fact 3) The number of deaths do to firearms has also decreased due to education of shooters, good safety standards and manufacturers promoting safety with both better firearms, but constant vigilance to promote safe gun handling techniques.

    Fact 4) There has been a demonstrated INCREASE in police militarization. Furthermore, as almost EVERY conservative will admit, there has been an INCREASE in federal governmental attempts in curtailing the rights of individual citizens. Just reading the news reports on spying, reading of emails and wire tapping are just a few of the examples of the public’s PERCEIVED unlawful actions on the part of both police AND federal and state institutions.

    Fact 5: The entire country is succumbing to the: idea of “maximum firepower.” This is as a result of a number of reason too complicated to go into here, but two of the reasons is the tendency for the promotion of violence in the mass media with ever more realistic and gory forms of entertainment along with the “entrapping” of ever younger juvenile minds into this violence entertainment mentality.

    We ALL know and agree hat children are called “children” for a REASON. And one of those REASONS is because they cannot process rationally and deductively like adults theoretically can. That is why they are called “children” and “minors.” And that is why they have adults in charge in order to make the “correct” decisions that everyone in society agrees that only adults can make. So these constant forms of ever greater and more realistic violence sends a chilling message to all young Americans, but especially to those more vulnerable because of poor family structures and lax supervision.

    Fact 6: As our populations have increased, we have major population centers called cities in which we have a predominance of low income crime oriented young men. This has caused the proliferation of the need for more specialized law enforcement methodologies in an attempt to control violence, gang activity and drug activity.

    HOWEVER, we have also seen where law enforcement has also succumbed to the entertainment industry and where no law enforcement feels the need for the same firepower that the military uses AGAINST AN ARMY during times of declared war. This is of itself very troubling.

    Fact 7: During the past 20 years, there has been a complete turn around in the mentality of the average police officer. And this is demonstrated by the numerous incidents of police officers using tasers on 13 year old girls, 75 year old ladies, pregnant women. The current attitude on the police departments is that under NO circumstance are police officers allowed to be injured on the job. The increase in the use of personalized communication devices along with more youth oriented social networking has led to new social problems, but has also allowed young people to be much more interconnected today than in years past. This has been a double edged sword in the sense that young people with very little family structures and even less respect for authority allows them to congregate and cause civil disturbances and riots along with the destruction of public and private property. .

    Fact 8: Police Officers have routinely broken laws, committed violent acts and have violated Civil Rights in their efforts to control communities. I speak from personal experience on this. Police routinely violate the very laws they are supposed to enforce. There is a dramatic double standard in law enforcement, with an “Us vs Them” mentality.

    Fact #9: While police have routinely violated federal, state and local laws, Juries on the other hand (again from personal experience) allow police officers to get away with blatant crimes and murders in the interests of community control and solidarity. However, the USA is in the throes of a “community breakdown.”

    By this is meant that the USA stands on the brink of “Balkanization.” The conservative pundit and historian, Pat Buchanan has written extensively on this very subject. The idea is the USA is reverting to specific ethnic and racial camps with specific agendas that do not dovetail with the national interest.

    There is no question that IF police departments do not resist this tendency to militarize, the USA will continue to fragment with less and less confidence in traditional law enforcement trust and more efforts to take the law into their own hands because of systemic mistrust of current institutions.

    Anyone that doubts this assessment, consider visiting your local large community courthouse.

    Going into any city courthouse with a population more more than 100,000 people will see a courthouse that looks more like a maximum security prison than a court of law.

    And there is a reason for this and the reason is that our traditional institutions which includes law enforcement have become so far removed from what the average citizen perceives as the right of the government to involve themselves in the day to day lives of its citizens, that very few people have any trust and confidence in government at all, especially conservatives.

    So in utter irony, we have conservatives arguing out of both sides of their mouths: on the one hand they decry the interference of “government,” but are completely okay with the rising militarization of an ever impending police state.

    Gun owners are the worst. They want it both ways. And until they start seeing that their ideas are schizophrenic at best, we will continue to DEVOLVE as a society–at least in the larger urban areas.

  45. Ferdinand II of Argon

    Since when has it mattered if it is constitutional or not? Just saying..

    1st: Martial Law is declared by President Lincoln on April 24th, 1863, with General Orders No. 100; under martial law authority, Congress and President Lincoln institute continuous martial law by ordering the states (people) either conscribe troops and or provide money in support of the North or be recognized as enemies of the nation; this martial law Act of Congress is still in effect today. This martial law authority gives the President (with or without Congress) the dictatorial authority to do anything that can be done by government in accord with the Constitution of the United States of America. This conscription act remains in effect to this very day and is the foundation of Presidential Executive Orders authority; it was magnified in 1917 with The Trading with the Enemy Act (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917). and again in 1933 with the Emergency War Powers Act, which is ratified and enhanced almost every year to this date by Congress. Today these Acts address the people of the United States themselves as their enemy.

  46. There’s truth on both sides here. I believe in the police having excellent equipment to give them every advantage in meeting law enforcement and even crowd control situations. What I disagree with is the mindset that this militarization seems to engender. A friend was stopped by a deputy for allegedly not wearing his seatbelt at 2 a.m. from across a dark intersection and my friend was wearing a black shirt – so the deputy wouldn’t have been able to see the black shoulder belt from outside the car even at 10 feet. When he protested that he was wearing his seatbelt, the deputy accused him of putting it on after being lit up. Long story short, my friend spent the night in jail for a charge that was thrown out in the morning. I was talking to him on the phone when this went down, and I went to the scene right away – a couple of blocks away by car. He’d already been put in the back of the deputy’s car, and when I asked to speak to him, I was refused by another deputy who’d shown up. Then, I offered to drive his car home after the first deputy finished searching it. No way! I wound up being threatened by both deputies if I didn’t get out of there and let them take care of their business. I’m 67, a totally-disabled vet, wearing an oxygen tank,, dying from the heat of that night, and I’m a threat? My friend paid out $250 bucks to get his car out of impound after the charge was dismissed and after I’d gone to the sheriff’s department and bailed him out for $200. I didn’t get my money, and neither did he. It’s not US versus THEM, officers! My friend and I both were vocal supporters of our police forces. Now? I don’t know….

    1. I agree with most of what you posted, many law enforcement types now are no more than another type of Tax Collector for the cities where they work. Many also are of the mind set that they can do as they wish and their word trumps ours in all events. These type officers we the people do not need, but then their are officers who do what they were intend to do and that is to Protect and Serve the civilian population. Don’t put all in the same basket for then we are the same as we complain about.

    2. When a case is dismissed or the charged person found to be not guilty, it seems like the government should have to “make whole” … paying any impoundment fees, returning any bail, compensating people for any other loss (such as wages) incurred as the result of the mistakes of the officers involved.

      Whatever happened to warnings?

  47. I know I’m probably going to be labeled as some liberal loving gun fearing a-hole for this but as a member of law enforcement, I will tell you right now you cannot, should not, and are not required to use “non-lethal” force against someone weighing over 100 lbs. more than you and who has just crushed in your face and eye socket. As far as the law, the officer only has to employ force “most reasonable” not “least Invasive”. Also, the force must only be found to be justified by a reasonable officer on the scene at the time. I can’t think of one reasonable officer that wouldn’t fire upon a suspect that is actively smashing your face in which could lead to, you guessed it, DEATH. When someone is killing you, you have the right to kill them back. I digress, as to the looting, whether provoked or not, they could just stop. Or is that too much? If the looters want to be seen as something other than thugs why don’t they act like something other than thugs. Or is that too white elitist thinking of me. Moving on to the military style “stuff” that law enforcement has. The North Hollywood Shooting pretty much sealed that one. Police can and have encountered extreme instances of lethal force being leveled on them and lets not forget that military style weapons are no more lethal than other weapons of the same cartridge ( as gun rights advocates have said for decades, myself included). Anyway, police are just trained citizens that are trained to respond to situations that ordinary citizens cannot or will not respond to. Ask yourself, if you were walking towards hundreds of looters who are possibly armed, as shown by videos from Ferguson riots, what would you want with you? Yes i understand that tact and tactics could probably be better but to focus solely on gear because it’s scary, sounds gun grabber talk to me.

  48. Cop’s lives are on the line. Of course they should have military style EVERYTHING!
    Cops are the “good guys” and should have every advantage over the “bad guys”.
    Only criminals should have a problem with this concept.

  49. I spent 6 years in law enforcement, my mind set changed very much as a result of the training and statistics that we were required to know and use. It is amazing what 80 to 120 hours of training per year will accomplish with crowd control, active shooter situations, and Court House and school security training. Not to mention riot control in jails.

  50. The Ferguson PD needs full firepower to deal with the thugs in their town, and I wish they would have been much tougher on the looters and rioters.

    Oh, and that thug who broke the policeman’s orbital when he punched him in his car got EXACTLY what he deserved!

  51. The cops are out of control. At 64 I have seen it go from “To Serve and Protect” thru Harass and micromanage to the current shot when ever you feel like it. Zero rules of engagement.
    Their job may be “tough” BUT most of the effects like that where caused by the government’s social restructuring.
    I was in public school before the all knowing government removed the Bible, and with it common sense. 6th grade graduation we stood on the gym stage and sang things like “God bless America”, The boys where told we could dress as an of our heroes. My Dad was my Hero so I stood there holding his shot gun and wearing his hunting coat with it’s pockets full of shells. I had walked to school thru town carrying that gun and went in right past Mr. Parker the principal. He did not bat an eye. The teacher told us “Boys put that gun in the corner. We are still having class today. I didn’t even need to ask permission from Mum or Dad to take it! I just told Mum I wanted to dress like Dad. Fast forward years to today. The swat team would be called. I would be thrown into jail IF I survived the arrest.
    It’s just so good that the Government took those Bible out of the schools after 176 years of them being there. Without that we would NOT be in all this craziness today.
    They opened Pandora’s box, sowing to the wind, now they are reaping their reward.
    Like I said , the cops are out of control along with the death of common-sense in the populous.

  52. I’m just sick about the whole mess in Ferguson. I feel for the mother who lost her son. I truly regret that a Black teen had to die, because the culture has taught him rightly or wrongly that Black men can’t get treated justly at the hands of police. I feel for the policeman who will not come out unscathed no matter how appropriately he acted, if indeed that is the case.

    In my lifetime, I have seen so-called “civil rights leaders” teach the minority communities that the police will never be able to do the appropriate thing. What does Attorney General Holder do to calm the situation? He reminisces about being racially profiled as a youth. That’s just helpful enough that he should be relieved of his overly burdensome responsibilities. But, I want to address the crux of this post.

    I have had close relationships with various police departments since the 1970s, and it is my opinion that the mindset of the average police officer has changed over the years. I am grateful that policemen are now better equipped to survive a confrontation and return home to his family. However, the militarization of the police and other domestic crime fighting and regulatory agencies is absolutely appalling. Our Founding Fathers took a stand against standing armies in our domestic society for reasons that are still valid. There is no reason for having SWAT-trained IRS agents. There is no reason for DHS to be buying 1.8 billion rounds of ammunition. There is no reason that local police departments should have “tanks”. I am just a regular law-abiding citizen and I now fear my government. The race toward militarizing police has had a noticeable effect on the mindset of today’s police. I believe that upon routine interaction between police and citizenry today has less of the element of “innocent until proven guilty.” Do you really think you are innocent until proven guilty when you are being audited by the IRS? And if this indeed has an influence in the average citizen’s opinions regarding gun control, at least as much blames accrues to the powers that promoted the militarization of the police as it does with the medias obvious anti-2nd Amendment bias.

    And our feckless leadership in the White House and Justice Department just exacerbate every problem. They want the ISIL leader who beheaded the journalist to be prosecuted as a felon under domestic law. I have an idea, Why don’t we send the militarized police over to Iraq to deal with the matter.

  53. You know, I really don’t understand the debate. First, from what I know, other then the Psyche of the protestors, there was not any damage from any of the military like equipment possessed by the police. All it really did was serve to protect the officers from violent protestors. Second, if the police departments did not get the equipment from the military, it would most likely have been destroyed. So what people are saying, is that they would sooner destroy perfectly good equipment, bought by taxpayer dollars, then allow local law enforcement to benefit from it. WHAT A WASTE!

  54. As both a military and police officer whose career continues to span 32 plus years, I find it immensely insulting, unprofessional, and quite amateur for Obama and Holder to be so embarrassed they’ve decided to spearhead such a bogus topic so suddenly now.

    Their true intent is not to earnestly inquire as to whether police are too military-like, but rather it is to distract everyone from the real question, which is… why are all these minorities senselessly mobbing, shooting, looting, and rioting throughout their own community, thus forcing the use of warranted military-style policing? In other words, to distract us from looking at the cause, let’s have everyone instead focus on the effect.

    I mean seriously people, which came first the chicken, or the egg? I never thought I’d see it, but Obama and his lapdog Holder has actually got everyone believing the cart should be pulling the horse now.

    One does not bring up police procedures at a time when those very tactics are actually warranted – as we’ve seen night after night by the lootings in Ferguson. Instead, such topics should be raised after 25 federal agents conduct a predawn raid on a family’s home in full tactical gear using flashbangs and assault rifles because a neighbor reported a picture of your kid holding a hunting rifle on Facebook.

    Look, I have spent a career staying balanced and non-prejudicial in every decision I make, so I feel confident when speaking out about racially charged issues when others won’t. I do so because I am a realist not a racist. That being said, here I go…

    Obama and Holder know their skin color does two things: It draws greater expectations from minorities of their own color, but at the same time raises stronger criticisms from non-minorities that detect such obvious bias. So this administration knows they must at least appear to remain neutral regardless of skin color.

    But every now and then they let slip that pre-disposed bias that is a rite of passage that can only ever be understood by other fellow minorities. The same bias that says – free TVs for everyone since a white officer had to use deadly force against a black man that was felony pummeling his eye out of his head.

    I won’t get into the psychology behind why the majority of riots and looting involve minorities or that more than half the murders are minority-on-minority crime; but I can say it is a fact that cannot be ignored – and to do so is every bit as racists as someone that attempts to gloss over it… which is exactly what Obama and Holder are attempting to do now.

    Never mind the fact that presidential involvement into such local matters is unprecedented to begin with, but we would be kidding ourselves if we also pretended to not know which way Obama and Holder were originally leaning in this shooting. Their initial actions screamed for justice and prosecution which implies they feel there must have been some form of wrong-doing by this officer because he was white and the perp was black.

    However, shortly after Obama and Holder took up this noble cause, the situation rapidly decayed with the unexpected video release of Michael Brown committing felony robbery just moments before his encounter with Officer Darren Wilson; followed immediately by reports that the officer had fended off an attack by Brown that yielded him facial fractures and a crushed eye socket.

    This turning out as a clean officer involved shooting is a major source of embarrassment for this administration, especially after having jumped the gun… again, so soon after their failed attempt to prosecute the Trayvon Martin shooting at a federal level.

    Worse is that without a real case forthcoming here, they have no way to ever explain off the over reactive and unwarranted protests and looting by minorities as anything other than opportunistic and racially motivated.

    The ultimate embarrassment for Obama and his administration is in this question: If he and his policies had truly done such a great job over this past 6 years, why then do the minorities still feel so downtrodden they must act in such a repulsive manor?

    But instead Obama and Holder have been pathetically left with their proverbial weenies in their hands and must now find something else to scrutinize in order to distract the masses from their incompetent reality that is this administration. So what better way than to have the public focus on the big bad police?

    1. Usually I agree with you, but not today. When have our LEO’s of late come up against Military opposition lately. It’s like taking a Military unit up against a group of sling shot supplied by eggs. Yes there’s a threat from protesters. But not as much from Tv/Movie watching LEO’s who want to try out their Weaponry. Let’s also get it straight there would be no Protesting or Looting if an LEO would have used less lethal tactics to subdue an un-armed suspect. These late years is all LEO’s seem to know how to do is Fatally Shoot unarmed suspects. Yes there has been armed suspect shooting but way less than unarmed. Then when the people are upset about it. They want to arrive in their Militarized gear and intimidate. No I’m not for Looting or the BS. that has gone on in Missouri, But I’m glad the incident didn’t go unnoticed. Personally i’m tired of all unarmed killing that police are doing lately. From Choke Holds to this shooting. It’s ridiculous to train , qualify and dump your magazine load on an UNARMED Individual. Especially when your suppose to be Smarter and better trained. Then when it doesn’t go right go get your Gang of Blue and dress up with their military equipment and try to intimidate. If things keep going the way they are I see a people vs. the Police war not to far down the road. This is my feelings and observations wrong or right that’s how I see the current situation,

    2. Well said 6gun. Let’s not lose sight of what Dave was saying in the original article: The police were pointing high powered weapons at basically peaceful people who were protesting. These weren’t murderous thugs who were planning on pillaging and killing. This action by the St. Louis police was way beyond acceptable. And this has been happening way too often. Remember Boston when a neighborhood was basically declared under martial law while police looked for two young “terrorists”. Outrageous in my estimation. Folks, every day you can see a new video on youtube of a police officer abusing a citizen. It’s becoming way too common. And now the police are acquiring military weapons that you and I can’t even touch. This is how tyranny starts. No one is saying that the police should not be able to defend themselves, but their first instinct should not be to use overwhelming force against their fellow citizens. That’s what military units do when they intend to win a battle…….

    3. When someone gets their orbital socket crushed by a thug who decides to come back for more and they’re still conscious they”ll be praying they have a gun with a full mag. It’s totally different when your beaten and near going out. I just hope and pray Noone is in that situation, but if they are I hope and pray they are prepared.

    4. The information was released the next day. It was the Main Stream Media who decided not to report it.

      It didn’t meet the narrative.

  55. Local police are controlled by localadministrations who are voted in by local populace. You get what you vote for from the local level to the federal level.

    When it comes right down to it the training and equiment don’t matter as much as the people who are elected to preside over it.

    I said it before in this thread and I’ll say it again. The equipment and training are common sense based on what police have to deal with today. The guidelines for usage are based on each area and it’s needs. These guidelines are put in place by the peoplewho are voted to lead. Look to them for right or wrong as you see it. Hold the idividuals who are wrong accountable.

    Compare the question of Why do police need military style equipment to the question of Why does Joe on the block need an AR or AK. Look who the people are complaining about the equipment being used by police. I’d bet the majority are the same as the people trying to ban semi auto rifles. There is a much broader picture.

  56. SELF DEFENSE FOR THE COMMUNITY EVEN IF YOU DON’T LIKE A MILITARIZED COP DEPT ! SO F WHAT PICK YOUR POISON CHAOS OR OUT OF CONTROL ANARCHY! WHO STARTED DA EBONICS LOOTIN ? SOME SAY PROVOCATEURS I SAY YES ! Q. grasshopper’s would you rather know the front line is protected then not to have dedicated men and women stand in the line of FIRE !

    The Black Culture of The So called race problems caused by Whitman is not 100% true. The problem started with the Mob rule attitude of Socialists Commie progressive anarchist like Obama’s Buddy Bill Ayers !

  57. In the Global War On Terror (GWOT) police must be trained and equipped to respond to acts of terror perpetrated by highly trained radical terrorists. They will not be sending their geek squad here to conduct terrorist activities, they will send their best trained and best equipped men and woman to commit violent acts of atrocity. The terrorists are working with the drug cartels to further their “cause”. The military is not, and can not be here to protect us. The Posse Comitatus Act limits the use of military for domestic law enforcement. There are terrorist here biding their time. Police need to be properly equipped to deal with that threat. Think Boston Marathon bombing. Two amateur’s caused quite a bit of havoc. Imagine that situation times 100. The reason police have “military type” equipment is that it provides the best protection against what they will be facing, and allow them to effectively deal with the threat no one seems to remember.

    1. Question; If The equipment and training where there prior to the bombing you mention, and they where, and if that equipment and training is to counter the “terrorist”, then how did they set of the bombs?? Crazy maybe but I think it all failed just like on 9-11 when the Government was protecting us.
      Just me but I don’t think that throwing money at the terrorist situation in the form of training and “equipment ” is doing much.
      DHS created , unknown to the Government how many trillions spent and Zero terror acts or plots discovered and stopped?
      I offer http://video.pbs.org/video/1750341589/ for some facts.

  58. I am more concerned about DHS, EPA and other government agencies becoming militarized than I am the police. Consider the amount of ammunition these agencies have stockpiled. The APC’S they have purchased. Certainly these agencies have acquired much more equipment than law enforcement. Is the country facing the possibility of marshall law? Anarchy? What if the liberals are not happy with Novembers elections? All ideas to think about. At the risk of being censored-May God bless America and pray that we do not destroy ourselves.

    1. APCs are infantry support vehicles. In military use, they deploy M2s. In police use, they deploy no offensive capability. In domestic use, without the ability to use a cal. .50 machine gun offensively, they represent death traps for the people in them. You couldn’t pay me to get in one of those death traps.

      I wish people would give up the idea of ‘martial law.’ There is no provision for it in the constitution. To attempt to impose it means the suspension of the constitution. Which will not be taken well by an armed populace.

      What does this have to do with the liberals?

  59. While I believe that police officers should have everything in their arsenal to support their jobs, nowhere is it more important than on domestic soil to have the right approach. Tact. Assess the threat environment and meet it with the least intimidating force. Its just good PR.
    Whereas are our troops are so restricted on foreign soil, rules of engagement, and sometimes not even supplied with ammunition.

  60. Police, lightly armed or heavily burdened with the most armored vehicles and vests, have thankless jobs. If you go into the West Los Angeles bank robbery with no vest, a .38 special, and a 00 loaded 12 gauge or offer a traffic ticket decked out in full military combat gear your ATTITUDE is probably as important as your attire.

    In the latest situation in Ferguson, Missouri, the initial contact was the most important encounter with all ensuing events being secondary. Had Michael Brown been on camera when he was shot, the situation could be clearer. Could be, not WOULD be. If both officer and deceased been on camera the situation could have been clearer, could have been…

    Michael Brown WAS on camera when he robbed the store. That makes him a suspect in a strong arm robbery but could never, in and of itself, justify the fatal shooting of the unarmed civilian. His unseen behavior toward the responding officer is the instant question. If his hands were up and empty, ’tis hard to make an acceptable case for lethal force. If hands were not clearly empty and he were approaching quickly, he was a threat of unknown proportions. Did he have a weapon, was his intent to assault the officer? Too many unknowns exist to be able to issue a clear and incisive decision in mere seconds yet that’s all the time that was available to the officer.

    Death lay waiting for Michael Brown and judgement awaits the officer. The reverse could have easily been true for all the officer knew from his experience. We may never know the absolute truth of that situation. We know that Michael Brown exhibited criminal behavior in the store and was hostile and belligerent toward the much smaller store clerk. Did he attempt to intimidate the officer as well? How could an officer know his intent?

    We KNOW what the crowds have done during the days (mostly peaceful) while many of the nights have been rife with looting and violence. The police have responded with tear gas and crowd control tactics. Laws against looting would have authorized much more force. Indeed, the lawless who just sought to enrich themselves over Mr Brown’s death deserved the harshest possible response. Their exploitive rioting and destruction of property and theft of anything not tied down shows their lack of regard for Michael Brown. They care only for themselves and whatever they can steal. Many looters, throughout history, are accorded what was awaiting Mr Brown. All sides of society must do better else anarchy awaits us sooner than we know.

    We are at a crossroad in history. Do we learn from this and heal with stronger understanding of each other or do we allow anarchy to foster the awaiting tyrannical behavior Mr. ‘bama is so willing to use. Far better that Mr. Brown’s life be a memorial for the entire community; an event of awakening; and a memorial to healing. This fork in the road is one we must navigate with extreme caution and explore with sorrow for our losses and hope for growth together. We will grow in one direction or the other. Take your choice.

    1. To your “crossroads analogue; History moves, time moves, events are the result of causations. For me it is better to think of it as dominos. The main domino in these events today was more then likely prior to your arrival on Earth. Many “dominos” ago America was a free land. Then evil did an apparent small thing and ALL began to change. The omnipotent Government remove the Bible from school. Most of the social woes they try to fix since then came from that action. There are no history books that have this fact expounded upon. You have no reason to believe this. But me, I know as I have lived thru it all.
      The Hindus have a saying; “For every ten thousand who beat at the leaves on the tree of evil, only one cuts at the root”. Look for the root. Before something can be fixed, it must first be understood what is broken.

    2. Wilson didn’t know anything about the alleged events at the convenience store. He was not the responding officer. The police have admitted this. Mr. Brown was jaywalking at the time Wilson started in on him.

      Nothing you allege happened. And without being there, anything people believe is base speculation. If, if, if… This hardly justifies the extra-judicial execution of Brown.

      Missouri has no specific laws, I could find, against ‘looting, therefore there is no punishment. It was more like petty theft, for which there is no criminal consequences, just civil. There are no loitering laws against what the demonstrators did–RSMO §599.147 et seq. The belief that looters should be shot suggest someone has no idea what they are advocating &/or been watching too much TV. Looting is not, nor has it ever been, a capitol offense. There is no possible way to know what anyone’s motivation/intent was and it is arrogant to assume anyone, but the actors, can know.

      This is entirely a local/county/state matter what does Obama have to do with this?

      There is no conclusive evidence that Brown EVER was aggressive towards Wilson. There is no evidence to support the rumor that Brown ever struck Wilson, at any time.

      Blind police apologia? I would hate living in the world as it is portrayed in your letter.

    3. “We are at a crossroad in history.”

      True words.

      I am 63 and have paid attention for most of those years. Having witnessed a lifetime of historical events, I am fully in agreement with your statement.

  61. I don’t think there is any question that we want the cops equipped when facing bad guys. However lets not get carried away with incidents in schools as previously mentioned. Cops are great as far as they go but lets be honest. By the time cops show up at the scene of a shooting the shooting is over whether its your house or a shopping center. Yes there are exceptions of course. The police again do a great job and provide valuable service. However they are a false sense of security.
    If someone comes through my door right now intent on doing harm the cops mean nothing except to investigate and arrest. Not to mention arresting me for shooting the bad guy.
    My point is lets not use school shooting type incidents as an excuse for this gear. This is riot an crowd control gear that may be used for active incident response such as a hostage situation.
    Having said all of this and having made a lot of enemies in doing so. I do agree that they should have the military equipment for St Louis type incidents.

    “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

  62. Re:
    “the out-of-control officer pointing his long gun and yelling, “Get back or I will bleeping kill you!”
    This cop was not actually from Ferguson. He was from a neighboring community of St. Ann. According to various local news reports, he is either suspended or has been fired. Considering the large number of cops that have been involved in trying to keep the peace, and the number of municipalities that have been supplying them, this officer is the only one that I am aware of that has been brought up in the media for his less than professional actions.
    With criminals being as unpredictable and violent as they have demonstrated themselves to be in every city across this nation, cops need every edge and advantage thay can get. If that means outfitting them with Military Style gear & weapons, then, so be it.
    I live in St. louis, so this is fairly local to me.

  63. Yet another opportunity for (let’s just use some ficticious names such as) Al and Jesse (and the rest of the ambulance chasers) to show up and throw Ronsonol on an already roaring fire of discontent. As for the person presently occupying the WH, he did the same thing with the an issue in Florida. For the sake of names, (let’s just say Martin) we won’t use a first name this time and pretend that was someone’s last name. Another unlicensed electrician trying to wire things up from a ficticious address of, uh, let us just use, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, shall we? People are disenchanted with having a certain type of card thrown on the table everytime someone in this country ends up a casualty of their own means. You be the deciding facor as to what card that might be. Huh? Choices have consequences. Burning down your own community…consequences (do NOT use public money to re-build it!). Rioting…consequences (you get gassed or struck in the melon with a rubber bullet, who’s fault is that?). Unlawful assembly…(You mean that I can be arrested for that? Really? Go home before curfew – DUH!)… consequences. Commiting a robbery…strong arm or otherwise…(and think maybe some employee or possibly the store owner is not going to resist you walking out without rendering payment)…what a concept! Maybe there could be some consequences? The police do a thankless job. If it were so easy to be a police officer, everyone would be lining up to do it rather than hanging on generation after generation receiving food stamps and banking a monthly check from the Feds or state coffers for doing nothing but sucking the life blood out of the rest of us who work for a living. There are bad eggs in every carton. But that does not mean the entire chicken coop is rotten. If you are involved in an offense it is simple. Quit whining about it, man up, tell the truth and face the Judge or whatever fate happens. Choices have consequences. Cappish? As for these other posts, I concur with “EdH”…well thought out and accurate. Sounds like you have ridden in a “black & white” before. If so, you have my gratitude and respect…hats off to you!

  64. I am a law enforcement officer with 8 years experience. I am also an Army veteran and a member of the NRA. Let me pose a question to those that fear the” militarization” of our law enforcement: When I am the first responder running toward an active shooter (or heaven forbid, shooters) in your child’s school, do you want me to use a 4 shot shotgun with a bead, or my AR-15 with an eotech?

  65. I have in the past voiced concern with the military equipment being handed to local law enforcement. Especially the MRAP’s, 20,000 were made available to the 1033 program, however, there are only about 18,00 local and state agencies. However, I’m going to attempt to make a counter point to my argument. Many supposed vets have voiced scorn and outrage that the police are wearing more protective gear than they had or wore while in active combat. My counter would be that the military is seldom told to form ranks and accept a certain amount of violence. Police, especially during riot control do exactly that, we haven’t seen or heard any reports of shots being fired by the police, clubbing by the police. We have seen molotov cocktails thrown at police, bricks, hunks of concrete…yet still no extreme force used against the rioters. Maybe because of the equipment worn by officers, they were able to accept that behavior without killing anyone. Just my 2 cents.

  66. I certainly agree with most of what’s been said here so far. The subject has been all over the net. To many it seems this is an easy question,. However to me It is worthy of discussion and I look forward to reading other views. I spent a career working with many PDs in training an investigation. I will tell you that there is much the public does not know about cops and leave it there.

    Certainly I want cops to be will trained and equipped and ready to face whatever the bad guys might dish out. However, for the first time in my life I am actually fearful of my government and infringement on my personal liberties. I guess so long as I have assurances that the militarization of PDs will not be used against law abiding citizens to enforce un -constitutional agendas I am ok with it.
    We all know that government assurances are iron clad …. right?

  67. @Dave Dolbee – your article is well written and devoid of the foaming at the mouth rhetoric exhibited by the extremists on both ends of the spectrum that don’t serve their positions.

    The issue of militarization of the police is a complex topic. I would think the majority of people would support police having the necessary tools to do their job for the right situations. The gangs and drug cartels, especially the ones affiliated with the Zetas (roots are former Mexican military) are equipped with military or very close, weaponry.

    That said, I think most 2A supporters and owners, appear to have more discipline and training than what was exhibited by some of the Ferguson PD. As you referenced, never point your weapon at anything you don’t want to shoot.

    It would appear the Ferguson PD as well as many other police forces across the country need serious training and discipline.

    1. RD, thanks for the compliment and input. It is a complex issue. A quick survey of the politicians lining up to hold hearings are all liberal gun grabbers too.

  68. Citizens of the US have the right to bear arms. That includes military style and hunting firearms that utilize ammunition that can penetrate common body armor used by today’s police. A police officer, performing his duties, has the right to defend himself against the type of ammo used in these weapons. In order to defeat this type of ammo a police officer would have to wear an unbearable amount of armor in his day to day “routine”, as much as there is a routine in police work. Wearing this type of armor is expensive and is also cumbersome. In order to make an officer’s work day bearable and to make individual officers approachable many departments have decided to obtain surplus armored military vehicles for tense and dangerous situations. Departments also have SWAT or CRT units to respond in armor for dangerous and tense incidents. This is not militarizing police departments, it is common sense. Individual officer will have equipment readily available to them if need be to use in a situation where specialized units cannot immediately respond.

    As far as arming street officers with military style rifles, the North Hollywood bank robbery from a decade ago has changed how street officers and their supervisors need to respond to these type of incidents. Anyone can go online and watch the video showing armored felons with full auto rifles mowing down cops and civilians with pistols and shotguns. The only equalizer in fighting this was the police confiscating AR15 rifles and ammo from a local sporting goods store and giving back what they received. These officers were not all trained to respond to this type of incident so training that some might consider militarized will go a long way to save police and civilian lives.

    So if certain elements want to take away our protection then they can have a police force that sits in their vehicle playing games on their iPhones and breezes through their career smiling and waving and handing out sticker badges and stuffed bears. Maybe that’s what needs to happen.

    When it comes right down to it, every cop isn’t dressed out for CQB or Slow & Deliberate. Every incident doesn’t call for it. Some do.

    So when a bank is being robbed by two determined felons loaded to the hilt, go ahead and run at them in a t-shirt with a sticker. When a violent mob is smashing windows, stealing everything in sight and beating people they don’t like just wade in like John Wayne and knock some heads. See how that goes!

    The outcome of untrained and underequipped police would be just fine with some people. I call their motives in to question. There is a need for the training and the equipment. There is also a need for guidelines for when this equipment and training is used. Many times a police officer has to take action in a split second. The guidelines need to take that in to account.

  69. Ferguson isn’t far from my home, and although that doesn’t make me an expert in this case, I’ve watched the news with great interest. I’ve not heard the concern mentioned in the article about police gear being “military-like”, what I’ve heard is concern regarding the militarization of our police: to me, this is a completely different issue altogether. Now, I support law enforcement in their execution of the duties they’re sworn to perform, but there appears to me a trend towards militarization of police tactics, corresponding to the ramp-up of our nation’s war on drugs. Where this becomes disconcerting is where we see an increase in police powers at the expense of civil liberties. I want our police to have all the tools & protective gear they need to do their job effectively & safely; at the same time, I’d like to preserve my constitutional rights. The only rhetorical question I’ll ask is this: where is the balance to be found?

  70. Perception and performance. Just as with and other fail, the police have done it to themselves. The perception of who and what they are didnt come from the bottom up. It came from the top down. In some cases, their over zealous performance has shown the true colors of some officers need for power. In the most recent event, it really does seem, now that so much of the evidence is on the table, the cop did it right. Lack of patience in reference to letting justice prevail, a group of rabid animal type sub humans used the circumstance as an excuse to go Christmas shop lifting. The officer should be found not guilty and not incarcerated. The looters should be found guilty and imprisoned. There is no other way for this situation to end properly.

    1. I a Child, well behaved! After seeing the security footage @ the store He robbed, You call this well behaved????? Not!!!!!!! If I was a Cop & some one tried taking My gun, You darn well bet, You would get shot too!!!!
      Now for the Police…… No one is asking an importent question. Why is the Police Dept. all white? Did You ever think that no Blacks applied, and or could pass the requirements? Before You go There, the Police Academy is not a walk in the park! Military equipment for the Police? YES!!!!!! They are up against more than most will believe or accept. That being the Home Grown Terrorists, Taliban & ISIS!!!!!!! Yes, They’re in Your community,even though many refuse to admit it or even accept it may even be possible!
      Now for the riots, Heck NO, this is not a right to be disorder,vandalizing,setting fires & robbing, let a lone setting fires & looting! Now as for the President of the U.S.A,! He’s out of line & is wrong for saying the Police can not or should not be using tear gas! Let’s put His butt in that situation & see how long before He would be using tear gas, I bet not long!!!!!!

    2. I fully support the weapons and the body armor. I think they need Police uniforms, not Military Camos. What purpose does wearing camo in town serve?

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Time limit exceeded. Please click the reload button and complete the captcha once again.

Your discussions, feedback and comments are welcome here as long as they are relevant and insightful. Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to edit as appropriate, delete profane, harassing, abusive and spam comments or posts, and block repeat offenders. All comments are held for moderation and will appear after approval.