Firearms

Grip Angle Doesn’t Matter: Why I Rock a (Nearly) Stock Glock

Three pistols highlighting different grip angles

One of the most prolific cottage industries to crop up in the world of practical handgunnery in recent years has been that of polymer-framed pistol modifications. Talented artists and machinists have taken to soldering irons and mills en masse to create customized solutions for ergonomic shortcomings in the world of firearms, and demand isn’t slowing down.

Many of these changes are far from cosmetic, and are designed to fundamentally alter the relation of the grip to the bore—commonly known as the “grip angle.” Many shooters find fault with this supposedly critical dimension of their handgun, and find that sending their polymer-framed pistol to a custom ‘smith is often the best solution.

But are these extensive modifications actually needed to make a pistol shootable, or are they simply the product of pride in ownership and a desire to own a custom firearm? And is the grip angle issue actually big enough to really warrant basing your handgun choice on it (as many do), let alone adding a significant cost to ownership via customization? Let’s step back a bit and really break it down.

For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll be directly comparing the Glock and 1911, simply for convenience of terminology. To be very, very clear:

Every single principal here can be applied to every single handgun on the market. This post isn’t hating on Glocks or 1911s in particular. They are simply an effective engine for discussion.

With that out of the way, let’s begin.

Pistol “Ergonomics” are a Sham

If between the flexible joints in your hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck and eyes you can’t create a proper sight picture with any handgun on the market, you need to put the gun down and see an orthopedic surgeon, because something in your body is broken and/or not functioning.

The angle of your handgun’s grip in relation to the bore simply does not matter, in any practical consideration.

If you aren’t willing to practice enough so that you’re accustomed to shooting your primary handgun, then a magic grip angle isn’t going to help you. It’s simply not going to make you a better shot.

The ergonomics of the 1911 pitted against Glock’s “severe” grip angle are a mixture of sales hype and folklore, pure and simple. Anybody who tells you that you need one pistol or the other based solely on the ergonomics and grip angle is selling you something.

Three pistols highlighting different grip angles
The differences in grip angle among major brands are not great enough to matter.

Fit vs. Ergonomics

Now, don’t misunderstand the point here. A handgun must fit you in order to establish a proper grip. But the fit of a handgun is a completely different story from the marketing myth of ergonomics.

For example, my grandmother cannot shoot a Beretta 92, because her finger is not physically long enough to even reach the trigger with anything resembling a proper grip.

But, assuming you’re an average guy or gal and not my grandma, you will be able to pick up any handgun made by a major manufacturer and it will fit your hand. Can you reach the trigger? Depress the magazine release with little or no grip shifting? Release the slide?

If so, the pistol fits you.

To be finally clear: Fit has nothing to do with grip angle and everything to do with where the controls are located in relation to your hand. And the grip angle has little, if anything, to do with that.

Glock vs. 1911: It Simply Doesn’t Matter

Fact from above: The “ergonomics” of a handgun do not really matter.

Fact from knowledgeable sources: 1911 handguns require more maintenance and attention than Glocks and similar handguns.

Because of this, I find very little needs changing on my carry gun. Much like any grip angle, a Glock trigger can be learned. And like the popularly maligned Glock finger grooves, the intricacies of a 1911 must also be mastered.

It’s amazing to me that the concept of the “correct grip angle” is so prevalent, and that many shooters choose to select their pistol with said “correct angle” as a primary factor.

Ask yourself this question: What’s going to make a bigger difference in how well you can handle a firearm? The grip angle, or consistent practice?

If you’re not going to practice regularly with your handgun, either dry firing or with live ammunition, then it really doesn’t matter which one you buy. Just get the one that will make you happy. After all, a stock Glock rests in your safe the same way the finest custom 1911 does.

And don’t talk about how certain pistols have more “soul” than others do. They’re all inanimate objects. Put your “soul” into developing skills, not acquiring shiny toys for the sake of intangible, non-quantifiable benefits.

Because of these two above listed principals, I shoot a stock Glock. I’d rather focus on improving skills than becoming a 1911 gunsmith. With Glocks, there’s simply nothing to change… or is there?

Get Rid of Those Plastic Sights

The reliability of your firearm is far more important than perceived ergonomics. You can readily learn to shoot any handgun very proficiently; but you cannot practice enough to make one objectively more reliable.

As bombproof as Glock pistols generally are, they tend to have one big weakness: the sights. If you carry and shoot one long enough, you’ll notice that these plastic parts start to get chewed up quite a bit just from normal use. Bottom line: They need to be replaced, especially if you’re serious about your training.

There’s no reason to fight a lumpy Glock sight picture, especially with the many steel aftermarket choices available. Out of the many fine options for aftermarket Glock sights, I favor the Defoor Tactical versions for their simplicity, well-executed design and attractive price point.

Defoor Sights Mini-Review

I’ll keep this short: There’s practically no reason not to have Kyle Defoor’s sights on your Glock. The sight ratio is the same as that favored by competitive shooters, yet the height is optimized for carry. An all-steel construction means they aren’t going anywhere, and Ameriglo produces them.

All of these features come at an exceptionally attractive price point. You can likely afford to put them on all of the Glock pistols you own for consistency across the board. They’re even newly available with illuminated options, if that’s your cup of tea. And if it’s not, there are a myriad of other Glock sight options available. Just ditch the plastic sights.

Conclusion

So, those are the reasons I shoot a (mostly) stock Glock. There’s no magic grip angle, only what you’re used to—and that is very easily changed with consistent practice. Glocks don’t “point high” for me, and neither do 1911s, or any other handgun for that matter. I simply put the sights on the target and press the trigger. I’m able to do this because I have a normal, functioning human body and only fire a shot when I have achieved an acceptable sight picture.

Don’t worry about whether or not your pistol “points” right for you or not. Do your research, and purchase the most reliable firearm your budget allows. For everything else, a little bit of intentional, focused practice can be truly priceless.

What do you think about the author’s conclusion? Are pistol ergonomics a “sham?” What evidence do you have to support your argument? Share your experiences with us in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (95)

  1. I have to disagree with the author about grip angle.
    I do agree that “Perfect Practice makes Perfect”.
    In my case if I come out with a fast draw and
    punch out to the target my sights naturally point high.
    I have to make an adjustment by canting my
    right wrist to get a perfect index (sight picture).
    When time allows I do this but while running and gunning or in a stressful situation I sometimes do not resulting in a higher shot.
    If the gun Naturally pointed straight when I presented
    it to the target I would not have this problem.

  2. I don’t know about grip angle not being important it took some ptatice and a few 100 rds to get proficient with my g19 whereas my 1911 right out the box I was hitting 1 in group at 20 yrd to me grip angle is easier with 1911 rather then grip angle with glock that being said g 19 is my go to gun relibilty is more important than grip angle good informant article

  3. Jeweled Barrel thanks for the comments.
    I don’t have the stats, but I’m guessing most self defense shootings are under 20′. That happen quick, Fight or Flight kicks in, tunnel vision, etc… Having a reliable pistol that goes bang every time, priceless, one that natural points where you look, gives you an edge.
    Try doing the no sites shooting test I suggested and you’ll be shocked. Most customers will never shoot enough to over come a stress filled situation. Most LE will never have range accuracy in a shooting situation.

    1. @Hexman-
      There aren’t really solid stats about distance for self defense shootings, but common sense would say under 20 feet is a good guess. Unless there’s a Hollywood-esque or gang situation, the average concealed carry holder shouldn’t be shooting at someone that far away. Basic LE don’t need to be accurate at long distances generally.
      That’s why concealed carriers should learn how to shoot w/no sights. If I have time to sight someone in and take my control breaths, I probably shouldn’t be shooting.
      I’ve recently started shooting w/no sites and much prefer it! The gun definitely made a difference, but muscle memory has overcome my not so ‘natural’ perfect grip guns.

  4. During my years in the Israeli spec -ops I carried and used my personal Bul M-5 1911 and many service issued Glocks, Zigs and Jerichos (Baby Eagle) in 9mm, 10mm and 40 S&W.
    I was trained to shoot instinctive since in battle you rarely have time to acquire a proper sight picture. Hours upon hours at the range and op simulations have made the point n’ shoot an instinct that served me and my brothers in arms well and helped most of us come home alive. Grip angle was never once discussed or acknowledged as we knew we had to make do with what the unit provides or what is available in the heat of battle.
    Although I loved my Bul M-5 9mm with its 18 round magazines, I found it to be a pain to take apart and clean when compared to Glocks. It was also a beast that once I retired didn’t feel enticing to carry around.
    Living in Cali, my daily carry is a Glock 31c in 357 sig which I love to shoot (but hate the cost of ammo). As with any of the 20 to 30 handguns I’ve shot in the past 25 years, it feels natural and instinctive and its low-recoil and flat trajectory allows me to stick them in the bulls eye even when double, triple, and quadruple-tapping.
    My advise – find a reliable gun that fits your budget and with the caliber you like, and shoot it as much as you can. Carry what you shoot and shoot what you carry. I like guns and have a few and there’s nothing wrong with that, but focus on the one your daily sidearm.
    One more piece of advise – save some money, by not buying that tricked-out 1911 and by limiting the size of your arsenal, and invest it in practical, real-world simulating shooter training and in lots of hours at the range.
    Stay safe.

  5. All right already. enough with the grip angle. How about is a hot 380 a good round for self defense , as in a 380 hollow point ??

  6. Sorry, but let me call the article BS.

    As a product designer I’m always taking ergonomics into my designs.

    I understand instinctive shooting with shoot guns to Tradititonal Bows.

    I’ve shot both left-handed and right-handed since I was a child with a BB gun to 22s.

    I’m cross eyed dominant, which makes shooting interesting and a correct fitting shotgun or pistol makes all the difference!

    When I have time to line up sights, great, but most of us who carry and ever have to use our pistol are going to end up in a panic situation.

    During a panic situation, a “Natural Pointing” pistol, for you, is going to help you live!

    Anyone with training can use sights, but a Panic, Fight or Flight confrontation is a different animal.

    Finding a pistol that “Naturally” fits you is a huge bonus. A pistol that “Points” where you look is a huge advantage in a gun fight!

    I challenge anyone to take three or four pistol that you’re looking at for Conceal and Carry to the range.

    Try and shoot them without using the sights, just bring them up and point them at the target.

    The one that shoots the most accurately for you is probable the best for conceal carry.

    The three or four you pick should fit your hand size.

    You can weight heavily the “Functioni” of the pistol, or what you’re use to shooting…

    Are you use to shooting a 911 or a Glock, stick to what you’re comfortable and instinctively Know.

    IMHO

    1. Interesting. I also shoot left and right handed and am cross eye dominant. I also can shoot almost any handgun well because I’ve learned not to rely on the ergonomics. I shoot well because I practice with the firearms that don’t ‘naturally’ fit my hand, frame, and strength.
      In regards to perfect aim in high stress situations–good luck. Even highly trained individuals who regularly employ their skills in these situations (i.e. not LE), aren’t perfectly accurate from any major distance. For the average conceal carry citizen, you better not be shooting someone who’s that far away unless you’re in a Hollywood situation. You don’t need to be dead on in most of those shots anyway. Good thing too, because chances are you won’t be.
      Lesson: find a gun that fits your needs, not that feels good on first grip. Practice and in no time your grip will naturally adjust out of necessity. Isn’t it more important to have a gun that performs the way you want than a gun that feels good, but the trigger, feed, release, kick, grip, etc. feels just right as soon as you pick it up?
      Learn to shoot well and suddenly your world of available guns opens up immensely!

  7. Glad he wasn’t trying to “sell something” . Anyone need sights? Anyone who thinks natural point-ability and good hand fit is nothing more than lack of training is missing something. Grip angle, height of bore axis, thickness of the grip are important factors when choosing a gun. The author is correct, guns don’t have a soul but I do, and when I want to shoot for the very pleasure of the sport, to feel the steel in my hand I shoot a 1911. I do carry a G26 daily but it is a tool. It is a cheap affordable practical tool. The fact I don’t enjoy shooting it, does not diminish its use as a tool. I would not hesitate to depend on any of my 1911’s for personal defense, I keep one in my nightstand for that express purpose, but why not take advantage of modern engineering and carry a lighter smaller cheaper package with added round count for every day use and replace it every few years as use and abuse dictate. Yes I will continue to make use of modern plastic engineering for my tools but when I shoot for enjoyment I will pick what feels good in my hand.

  8. I am 74 y/o and part time clerk @ A very busy retail gun store/25 yard indoor range. Most folks who know anything about guns never mention anything about grip angle. They preach shoot em and shoot em some more. Worthwhile and purposeful practice with a certain objective and routine that re enforces good shooting skills is paramount.
    Set up drills to fire shots like 2 to the body 1 to the head. also thrust and
    shoot aka point and shoot at a 10′ distant large silouette (sic) for 2 to 3 rounds to the core/torso ignoring the sights, and resting between shot groups can be a big plus to hone your basic skills.
    None of the certified instructors that give lessons at our facility ever say
    buy several boxes of 50 rounds of ammo, go into the range take up a stance in your lane and blaze away the only exercise is how many shots can you put in your target just short of committing rapid firing.
    grip angle per se is only brought up by the armchair shot experts, whose opinions get swept up with the empty shell casings.

    1. @ Tom,

      Yeah, I’m going to have to call you on that one. You are speaking for way too many people in an effort to bolster your personal opinion.

      The clincher is when you wrote, “grip angle per se is only brought up by the armchair shot experts”. That is impossible given that “grip angle” is an indisputable science that affects all shooters and must be addressed with each and every gun ever designed. That would mean professionals often discuss it.

      I think where you are confused is the actual term “grip angle” itself. That is the professional term and rarely used by the common shooter. However, “grip angle” is referred to by many other common terms which you may be more familiar with.

      Regardless of the actual term used, it must be addressed during a course of fire by any respectable certified instructor or they wouldn’t be doing their job properly. They may not actually use the term “grip angle”, but they are still speaking in terms of its effects.

    2. @G-Man:

      I must come to the defense of Tom because I found his post to be very refreshing and based on reality.

      Sure you can talk about grip angle being a science, but you could also talk about a computer mouse’s contour being a science for the most precise click ratios. You could take any mechanical thing and drill it to death until it’s minutia.

      But gun makers don’t make adjustable grip angles. I have never heard this term discussed until this article. Why? Because the gun makers design guns that can be shot by most everyone.

      A police officer can have huge military experience, SWAT team practice, and the best weaponry, including ergonomic grips, but a drug addict with a saturday night special can kill him if he gets the first shot. This happened to 2 officers in separate incidents in Phoenix in the past 2 or 3 years.

      The point is that the velocity of a bullet is so overwhelmingly faster than human movement, that the ergonomics being argued about here are reduced to the ridiculous.

      And one more point I’ve been wanting to make. I have a Zastava AK-47 pistol with the ugliest, skinniest, shortest plastic grip, and I can easily nail the 100 yard target with it’s iron sights. And it’s a true pistol with nothing to rest on my shoulder.

      @Tom:

      Regarding this quote: “grip angle per se is only brought up by the armchair shot experts, whose opinions get swept up with the empty shell casings”………….Yesterday when I read this I almost did a fist pump, because I feel it’s a classic comment!!

    3. @ss1,

      Okay, let me try another approach in hopes you guys will finally understand…

      What you are saying is synonymous with claiming aerodynamics have little bearing on how a fighter pilot handles his jet. But what you fail to realize is that as aerodynamics is to a jet, “grip angel” is to a gun, therefore placing it as one of the foremost factors considered in the proper design of any gun.

      Why you never hear about “grip angel” is similar to why the flight attendant doesn’t discuss aerodynamics with you every time you board a plane, but that still does not mean it is an inconsequential aspect to why you make it safely to your destination… or not.

      The reason is because the work behind the science of flight has already been done by design engineers years ago, and thus established a solid foundational dynamic required for all basic flight. Like aerodynamics, the science behind “grip angle” doesn’t change often, but it is always a very important factor. It simply exists with or without anyone’s opinion of it, and is a part of every single handgun ever made. No one has a choice in that matter.

      So while Glock has decided upon their ideal all–around best “grip angle” and the 1911 another, there are factors that can still offset the intended factory “grip angle” on any gun for better or worse for each individual. These factors include, but are not limited to: hand size, grip style, wrist strength, standing height, changeable back straps, ammo load, and even aftermarket sights.

      My point was that “Grip Angle” is a factor in every single shot that has been fired or will ever be fired on this planet. So regardless whether you’ve heard of it, discussed it, believe in it, or consciously employ shooting techniques whilst considering the utter science behind it – none of that will ever change the fundamental aspect of its importance.

      I hope this helps clarify things a bit more.

  9. This seems like the best forum to throw out a question to about 2 sweet 10mm pistols I have my eye on.

    Does anyone here have any experience and/or comments about the STI 1911 10mm, or the STI 2011 Perfect 10? The main difference between the 2 are 5″ barrel vs 6″ barrel on The Perfect 10, and also a $1000 price difference.

    For all you 1911 fans, is The Perfect 10 still a 1911 in your eyes?

    STI has a cool website. I’m not including it here because it will delaying my comments being posted.

  10. As I have said in the past I own six Glocks and they are a good fit. I would not change a thing on them, kept clean and out of reach of everyone else.They have always did the job. A very good weapon to depend on. Better Gun Control, Use both hands. Over and under.

  11. The author is correct that the best marksmanship only occurs when a proper sight picture is acquired before the trigger is depressed & maintained during the trigger stroke. Anything less is just spray & pray. I am also amongst those who do not feel grip angle prevents myself from acquiring a sight picture before firing. Even with novelty guns that are inherently ergonomically challenging, I can still hit the target if good marksmanship is applied. However, I do recognize there may be tactical and emergency situations where a good sight picture cannot be acquired, and spray & pray is all you have. Laser devices are one solution for this situation, and it would also help to have a good instinctive pointing characteristic with the given firearm. This may be an issue for some, but for myself any good defensive handgun will work.

  12. I agree with the fact grip angle doesn’t matter and practice being the key point. However, for those that shoot on a very regular basis, changing the grip angle on a Glock or preferring the angle of something similar to the newer Sig Sauer P320, could be substantial to others. As far as an everyday carry gun, factory characteristics would be my choice without a doubt.

  13. I’m in my “sunset years” and have some arthritis in both wrists. The recoil of a 1911 is downright painful so I carry a 13 year old Gen3 G17. No pain and 3″ groupings, and I never cared about grip angle.

  14. In theory I agree that grip angle should not be a deciding factor when choosing your first handgun…. If you are making a change in your every day carry weapon then it makes a HUGE difference! I have carried and shot 1911’s for the last 30 odd years and picked up a friend’s Glock 22 at the range a few weeks ago and I can tell you the grip angle does make a difference. The author above notes you must practice and that is truth, but just picking up another gun with a different angle is a problem. I couldn’t hit anywhere near the center of the target, let alone center mass. I’m sure with practice that would change but that’s why my primary, secondary and tertiary handguns have essentially the same grip angle – if one goes down for some reason I won’t have a problem.

  15. As one who has a degree and background in human engineering, I have to disagree with the author. He chose to make an “either/or” argument where none exists. One need not select between practice and comfort; one should have both. When forced to make such a choice, what inevitably happens is the average person becomes dissuaded from practicing with an uncomfortable gun. By contrast, finding a gun that is comfortable for you will not discourage practice, and may encourage it. Whether it’s a 1911, Glock, Luger, Hi Power, S&W DA revolver, or SAA, if you like it will be more confident with it.

    1. I have to agree with Colonel K on this one . I can shoot a Glock very well. They just work and work well. BUT … I don’t care for the grip angle . That’s why I don’t own one . My favorite shooters that I own are my Sig fastback 1911 and my CZ 75 BD Police . They just “feel” right to me . And that make shooting them more enjoyable , and that makes me want to train more . I say , shoot what works for you . Shoot safe and often .

  16. Grip angle doesn’t matter if you’re shooting paper targets and using the sights for each shot. Grip angle is everything if you’re an instinctive shooter like me. I don’t even use my sights at CQC distances. I can draw and point shoot a cockroach at 20 feet with a good 1911, I can’t with a Glock. The author missed the point entirely.

  17. As they say, everyone has an opinion and here is mine. To discount the impact of grip angle as a function of ergonomics is to not understand ergonomics. All design features of a weapons system can impact ergonomics. To say that you can adapt your body to any different machine and make it work is to ignore the benefits of designs that make it easier to present and shoot a firearm with the emphasis on establishing physical adaptations to make the gun shoot naturally where you wish. That is why there are so many optional accessories available to allow shooters to equip the firearm to meet their personal style and physical attributes. In the early eighties, engineers studying human factors as part of design began using the term “machine the man, not man the machine”. This principle of taking into account the human factors, which includes ergonomics, was a declaration that designers of military equipment should take int account all the factors of a design that would allow even the most basic recruit to be successful in employing the equipment. With all that being said, I do not recommend any specific model of firearm for individuals as this is a matter of allowing shooters to try different designs and find the one that works best for that persons physical abilities.

  18. CTD, you apparently simply don’t know &/or don’t have the experience to opine on grip angle & trigger action. After carrying and extensive training with the 1911, I changed departments & was forced to go with a Glock where I’ve had more extensive carry & training with it
    .
    First, grip angle. After extensive training, you develope muscle memory. You can close your eyes & draw to the target; open your eyes & be very close to on, just like pointing your finger. So on rapid presentation, the Glock “naturally” points high. Sure, we can then adjust our wrists to get back on target but that takes time which detracks from your score or survival. After years of trying to adapt, I had my Glock grip angle modified & am back on target “naturally”.

    Second, trigger action. You can indeed learn a Glock trigger. But after all of my years with a Glock and rarely practicing with a 1911, I can shoot faster & more accurately with a single action trigger…the 1911.

  19. Whether I agree or not with content of this article is of no consequence.
    As far as I’m concerned, the author is genius. I enjoyed reading it and even laughed a couple times. I’m sure he could make a story on sheep dip entertaining!

  20. This article missed the point of the grip-angle consideration, but not WRONG in other points.

    Article is correct about grip-angle correlation to good marksmanship.. In that there is none. If you got a good eye and trigger finger, you can align the gun to shoot accurately and precisely.

    However, the point to grip-angle is time to acquisition. On first draw, your body and mind has a natural position to how you point your finger for a “blind” reaction first shot. To have a gun that is not “customed” means you have to put extra effort to retrain and renaturalize.

    Depends on your mission and intent for that purchase. Just something to consider before spending several hundreds…

  21. If ergonomics don’t count, how do you explain why Olympic free pistols don’t look like Glocks?
    I agree with the law of proficiency–practice practice practice practice practice then practice some more.

  22. Detractors of the article aside, as well as the article;), and trying NOT to turn this into the (in)famous 1911/whatever v/s Glock guns, I was death on Glocks when they first appeared – plastic, ugly pieces of junk – or, so I ‘assumed!’ Disclaimer, I am definitely NOT a Glock dealer….

    A few years ago, my son cajoled me into competing in a GSSF (Glock Sports Shooting Foundation) match – ‘he’ had the guns. We have one G17 (Glock’s original 9mm) that has ‘conservatively’ run through 150,000 rounds, not counting dry fire. He, being younger and better “heeled,” shot up most of that and in the process has won some 25 Glock handguns, being older with old eyes, I’ve only acquired five. The only replaced parts being various springs and one firing pin! Long story short, I now carry nothing but a Glock handgun.

    As for ‘ergonomics,’ Glock builds more types of grips, I think, than anyone else. Narrow, fat, short, long, you call it. Grip angle in a ‘gun fight’ being something that would conspire to get you killed is laughable! The ‘gang bangers’ know that just shooting first in the direction of who they want to “kill” will likely keep them alive for their next fight – good hit, bad hit, they don’t care, and most importantly, they DON’T HESITATE to shoot! If they are ‘coming’ for you, you may not even have time to disengage that safety, if you are even carrying “cocked and locked!”

    Want to shoot fast and under more control for followup shots, at least pick a handgun that places your hand as close to the bottom of the slide as possible (like a Glock). My son can run a six plate rack in 2 sec or less, competition brings that up to 2.3-2.5. There is not a 1911 beavertail style gun out there that can compete for speed!

    Excuse the long post; however, too many “mall ninja” ideas will definitely get you “killed!” As many correctly note, practice with what you have ‘regularly,’ and realize what the 21 foot rule says: from 21 feet (7 yds) someone of ‘common’ athleticism (gang banger) can be on you in 1.5 seconds or less!! STAY SAFE, DO NOT OVER ESTIMATE YOUR ABILITIES

    1. @Firewagon:

      Great comments. Welcome to the fold. Glock forever!

      After reading your speed specs, I definitely need to work on my speed, but I think the extra kick from my Underwood 10mm ammo may inhibit that. At least it’s a new project to focus and work on. But I’ll definitely do my speed practice with the cheaper PPU ammo.

  23. Gunsmithing for 11 years now, my #1 customer request is “can you make my gun more comfort able?”…….. Also, ergonomics are so important that they can be the difference between hitting your target and not. I’ll keep it simple, the guy who wrote this article is biased, uninformed, unqualified to write an article of this complexity, and probably on Glocks payroll.

  24. CTD Blogger confuses grip angle with ergonomics. The sole fact that a handgun (and any other small gun) is made to fit a human in some way, hands eyes etc means that ergonomics was a consideration in the design of the firearm. You might speak of poor or good ergonomics, irrelevant ergonomic features, etc but you cannot say that pistol ergonomics is a sham.

    I would like to believe that CTD chose his words poorly rather than being ignorant on the meaning of ergonomics. Fit is nothing more than the result of applying ergonomics.

    Javier

  25. Ask 15 people what gives a handgun that perfect feel and you’ll get 15 different answers. That is why you should try a gun out before you buy it to get that perfect “feel and point”. Good luck.

  26. Read your article with interest however it doesn’t explain why the grip angle of the German 9mm Luger is so admired. Anyway, I did find out that my 1911 has ‘intricacies’. Best Regards

  27. Dear CTD . . .

    Please get your IT guys to set it so that when I click on the “REPLY” button at the bottom of the email I receive for new comments to reply to the specific comment that arrived in the email, it actually takes me to that comment rather then to the general comment option at the bottom of the page, and does not leave my comment under the comment i am trying to respond to.

    It is a pain having to scroll through all the comments in the thread trying to find the one you want to reply to.

    Thank you.

  28. This whole article is ridiculous on so many levels. I have big palms with short finger, these hands are older and arthritic, you bet ergonomics as in grip angle is important. Part of the problem with the firearm culture is articles like this. An opinion piece without any merit at all. Written by an unknown blogger who is trying to say something controversial to get a name for his/herself. Instead of doing actual research and providing useful information we get this crap from a blogger who has what for credentials? When I want useful information I stay with people who are credible such as Jerry Miculek or I figure it out myself through trial and error. Ultimately this comes off as an advertisement for Defoor’s sights.

    1. Dear CTD,

      Big Daddy has actually made some good points about random CTD Bloggers. Who are these people? Why are they here? What are their true intentions?

      I have met with the CTD Forum Militia leaders, and we would like a list of random CTD Bloggers with true indentities and credentials, so we can decide if they should appear before our tribunal to face reprimand or further court marshal and punishment.

  29. With my Glocks, I like the large grip, you can get a firm hold. With the 1911 it’s to slim, but still a nice fit. But nothing beats a Glock, handling fits well I have large hands.

    1. Agreed.

      The first time I held a Glock I thought the grip was way too big because I do not have large hands, but once I shot it, my entire outlook changed. I love the feel of a Glock and, for me at least, it is very easy to control.

  30. Ergonomics and grip angle don’t matter huh? Sorry got to disagree. Some guns just feel better to some people than other. Grip angle, location of the controls width of the grip and material of the grip all matter. For me I don’t like the block. I acknowledge it’s a very good firearm but I don’t like how thick it is. It doesn’t feel right either in my hand or when carried inside the waistband despite any holster I’ve tried. A slim bodied 1911 feels perfect in my hand and carried iwb. So does a Browning High Power. I also just like the placement of the controls. Now when it comes to grip angle and trigger control I’m a big fan of staying with one type of fire arm. Same maneuvers from holster to trigger squeeze lends itself to development of muscle memory. I get that with 1911’s and BHP’s. Anyway if a flock feels right to you great if not keep looking. Finally pride of ownership does matter. If you like something you will spend more time handling it. If you don’t handle, practice and carry your hand gun the rest just doesn’t matter.i don’t like glocks so I’m less likely to carry one than I am a gun that I like. I’m also less likely to want to practice with it either. So for me that’s why I carry custom 1911’s and BHP’s. They feel right. I can make then work the way that feels best to me and I enjoy shooting them. Honestly with the amount that I shoot the cost of the pistol really is minor compared to the ammo/targets/range time expenses. So my opinion: get what feels right to you then shoot it until it wears out.

  31. I never post comments on articles like this but I feel like this one deserves a post. Yes, it is important to train on different platforms because you never know what type of weapon you may have to use at some point in your life. Yes, you can achieve proper sight alignment by moving your wrist and elbows to conform to the gun you are shooting. Yes, you should practice enough with your daily carry weapon to achieve instant sight alignment when presenting the weapon. However, when you say ergonomics are a sham and unimportant, you are completely wrong. Handguns with grip angles that closely mimic the 1911 grip angle are almost universally natural point-shoot weapons. They conform to the natural angle your palm and wrist produce. For a proper shooting stance and maximum recoil absorbtion through your arms, you need a weapon that will naturally point well when presented. Glocks do not present this angle nearly as well as M&P’s, XD’s, and 1911’s. That being said, there are aftermarket frames (Lonewolf, CCM) that change the grip angle to more closely resemble that of a 1911. I have done hundreds of eyes-closed point-shoot drills and if you are using a handgun with an unnatural grip angle yoilur hits will be high or low, if you can even control the weapon without looking at it. If you don’t believe me, do some drills with your eyes closed (empty weapon at first) with a Sig platform and a stock XD or M&P platform. You will see on a Sig that your front sight will almost always be low when pointing at the target.

    1. The newest Glock generation have interchangeable back straps, like the XDM Springfield’s , get it to fit and there are no issues, but the original (O.G.) Glocks had a NASTY angle, that’s probably why “the boys in the hood” like to hold the sideways?

    2. I can shoot a Glock reasonably accurately. I can shoot a 1911 reasonably accurately. I have owned several models of both.
      With a Glock, if I draw and point without aiming, I am pointing high. No, I can’t shoot down satellites. Not that high. But high.
      If I draw and point a 1911, I am pointing straight down range.
      No big deal. I can compensate for the natural high pointing of the Glock and shoot it just fine. But why should I have to work to compensate when I am already pointing correctly with the 1911?
      I just have to work harder at the range to get good at shooting a Glock. So, I don’t even consider using a Glock.
      Yes, grip angle matters to me and it matters functionally.
      Ron

  32. Well anyone can learn to shoot anything with practice, but why not give them something they can get the same results with less time and money? Ergonomics are about what fits the individual, not what works for everyone. It is the difference between good enough, and excellence.

  33. Wow,,,what an incredibly long and arduous path to simply make a sales pitch for new sights…not to mention that this IS an opinion piece. Shoot more and youll be better? well, duh! but if you find a gun with a better grip angle FOR YOU, or a better sight picture FOR YOU, wont you automatically shoot better? the more natural you can be, and the fewer ‘compensations’ you make from your natural body alignment, the better you will shoot. Its the same thing with all sports. When push comes to shove, when the pressure is on, when the SHTF, training goes out the window and natural instincts take over. Why not get set up more appropriately FOR YOUR NATURAL tendencies?

  34. I find a great deal of difference in effect of grip angle. I like to have pistol come out of the holster, or where ever I start from, and naturally line right up with my arm. A1911 will do that while my EAA Witness (CZ 75 clone) will not so I am looking for a way to alter that will require a new mortgage on the house. I can shoot the Witness quite well on the range but I feel the milliseconds spent cocking my wrist might be critical.
    Patrick

  35. Grip angle is generally unimportant, until injury, arthritis, age, or all three co-join to make grip angle matter.

    Folks without serious problems are all quick to tell us these things don’t matter. They can and often do when afflicted.

    Go figure

  36. Yes the `1911 is a real nice weapon I carry one in the service but it did not have a large magazine. I am used to the fire power of a 45 semi auto and that’s why today I carry a Glock model 21 and a back up model 30. The magazine for the model 21 fits into the model 30 and I only carry speer gold dot ammo. I have not changed anything on my Glocks and I still fire my old rounds every few weeks and reload with new fresh rounds. I depend on my Glocks and I break down my Glocks and clean them on a regular basis. They are ready when I am ready.

  37. I hate to say but grip angle is VERY important for shot placement while shooting instinctively. I’ve been shooting IDPA for years and switching from Glock to M&P or 1911 does in fact shift my point of impact greatly. If you’re taking your time & using your sights (extremely unrealistic in an “oh crap” situation), yes, there is little difference. I am making 15 yard shots without sights and when you’re used to a Glock getting bullseyes, the grip angle most certainly shifts it downward.

  38. “Chewed up” sights to the point that it actually affects your accuracy? I dislike plastic sights too (and plastic trigger blades) but really? Are you also using your Glock as a hammer or carpentry tool or something? Maybe if you treat your Glock like it’s a $3000 custom 1911, you won’t chew up their cheap plastic sights so much! Nice plug for Deefor sights though.

    In all shooting sports, I have noticed that people tend to shoot best what is physically most comfortable and natural for them to shoot. Also, because shooting sports are so much a “head game,” people tend to shoot best when using guns and gear that they believe-in. It’s like a placebo effect.

    1. Speaking of sights and other guns in general with the natural point of aim. I find it imperative to learn how to shoot w/o having to use the sights on a pistol. At 50 yards and less you should be able to hit your target within a couple of inches without having to use sights. Where ever you are looking at should be where the bullet will end up. I personally use sights when I am trying to impress the hell out of my buddies when I shoot and hit a 3″ x 3″ steel target at 100 yards with my glock 21 using Tula.

    2. I would both agree and disagree with learning to shoot w/o having to use sights. The disagreement is the presentation should be practiced to pickup the front sight while the weapon is still close to the chest, muzzle high, and as the arms are extended the rear sight comes up into the front sight. This is how the Pros do it and the fastest way for get a shot off and accurately. The agreement is there is a useful drill that involves presentation w/o the sights, moreover with eyes closed! The procedure is to face the target and close ones eyes, then draw and present to the target. Open the eyes and see where the sights are. The shooting stance should be adjusted until the sights are on target and only slight adjustment is needed. And yes, with practice, it is possible to make shots on target (human size torso) at 50 yards with eyes closed. However I would never recommend practicing not to pick up one’s sights otherwise. Always use them when they can be seen and make the conscious decision if the sight picture is adequate for the situation. With practice, the draw and presentation become autonomic and the shooter has time to think about how accurate the shot must be, and plan ahead to the next shot, reload, etc.

    3. @Kerry

      I agree completely with what you are saying. The technique has a lot to do with a consistent grip that essentially points a part of your hand that is in perfect alignment with the barrel toward the target, usually the strong side thumb.

      Your description is good, and the drill is indeed legitimate. The shooter should practice this with a static target until they have developed a grip that is consistent enough that they always know that the muzzle is aligned with whatever part of their hand they naturally point toward the target. For me, that is my right thumb. I would add that the next stage after learning to orient their muzzle with their eyes closed is to graduate to a range where the shooter is not static, and has to move through various target presentations. The key is to develop such a consistent grip that a quick point shot becomes instinctive, sort of like muscle memory.

      But, I do think people should realize they are not going to develop this in a couple of trips to the range, especially if their range sessions are weeks apart. Before I deployed to Iraq as a DoD security contractor, I went to the range about 5 times a week, and I shot USPSA meets every weekend there was one within a hundred miles of me. On the other weekends, I went into the hills and shot on my own.

  39. You are so way off base, you need to do more research! Read some of what Georg Luger had to say about grip angle. Then read what Bill Ruger had to say about it!
    You are so far off the mark, I am surprised you made print!. Look at the pistols they offered—- in their time, not the crap produced today, which try to copy John Browning mistake!
    Research has shown that the best grip angle for the average persons hand is 120 degrees, not the 109 used by Browning and his copiers!
    Those pioneers did do a lot of research into this aspect of human anatomy—- which you seem to dismiss!

  40. I really like this article a lot, and am glad it was written.

    I shoot very well and smoothly with my Glock compact 10mm gen3. I attribute this to Glock making a great firearm that needs no modification, and also to the excellent response and action of the 10mm caliber.

    I started shooting much better with my Glock full size 10mm gen4, AFTER I REMOVED the ergonomic medium thickness backplate and shot with no backplate.

    And I’m shooting fantastically with my Desert Eagle 50AE, stock out of the box. I’ve begun shooting it one handed recently, and it feels very comfortable and natural to me. In my mind it’s a masterpiece firearm that has excellent balance as long as you respect the power it unleashes.

    1. Hey, ss1!

      Hope you’re doing great.

      I’m glad you mentioned Desert Eagles. Right out of the box, the first time you pick one up you think, Wow, this is the heaviest, most bulky grip gun I’ve ever held!

      And then you shoot one.

      My wife and I own two (.357 and .44). We don’t have a .50 just because ammo is so expensive,. and we like to shoot ours as much as possible. But a .50 Desert Eagle is like the Dodge Viper of guns.

      I also agree with you on the article. Sure, there are all sorts of fits for all sorts of people, but it’s a great article and one that should make people stop and consider that if you make the effort, you can shoot well with almost any reliable gun out there.

    2. Hi Mikial.

      Actually I may be selling my Ruger Super Redhawk 44 magnum because I’m not accurate enough with double action. Then if I do sell it, the plan is to buy a Desert Eagle 44 magnum barrel, so I can enjoy the interchangability of barrels, and keep enjoying the 44 magnum caliber, which is one of the best.

    3. To: Mikial If your weapon is double action, then using both hands pull down your hammer and then squeeze the trigger to fire. If you are pulling the trigger only and to fire the movement will throw you off, same with a revolver. Try over and under, weapon in right hand place in palm of left hand and squeeze the trigger. This movement is called better gun control. Yeah using both hands. LOL Let me know how you do!

    4. @Glock Guy

      I’m not sure what your comment to me is in response to, unless it was meant for someone else. 😉

    5. Shooting double action with a revolver takes practice as all other shooting skills do. And surprisingly the double action pull can actually slow the natural movement in one’s forearm as the tension is increased until the trigger breaks. This assumes the trigger mechanism is smooth, springs not excessive, and the shooter is practiced in double action. Try this drill, Place a penny on top of the barrel rib behind the front sight and dry fire without dropping the penny. If you have a Patridge front sight, then move on to putting the penny on top of the front sight. You should get to the point you can dry fire six times in under 2 seconds. That should smooth up your trigger pull and improve your accuracy. Never learn to shoot a double action revolver singles action. It defeats the purpose, and is only a crutch for the unpracticed.

    6. @Kerry:

      Thanks for the double action tips. If I did anything to improve my situation with double action, I would reduce the spring.

      However, I constantly think and analyze whether the guns I have are right for me, for multiple reasons. For instance, I have always argued for Glocks on these blogs, and stated that 1911’s have a smaller mag capacity, yet I have to realize that my Ruger 44 magnum revolver holds 6 bullets and is harder to re-load. Also, with my strategy to sell it and buy a Desert Eagle 44 magnum barrel, it allows me to explore Desert Eagles that much more, and maybe even decide in the future to own another DE dedicated to 44 magnum.

      Also, I have to disagree with your “never single action” opinion. The thing that is tearing me apart about my Ruger 44, besides it being so solid and well balanced and stainless steel, is that when I use single action it is clearly my most accurate pistol by far.

    7. And let me say one more thing about single action accuracy and the “crutch” comment. If a bear is at 50 yards and coming toward me, I know 100% that I will hit the bear at 50 yards with my Ruger 44. I cannot say that about my other pistols in that situation.

  41. “Pistol “Ergonomics” are a Sham”

    Gosh, I guess you could have fooled my hands, between the Ruger’s own alloy framed P-89 and P-90 compared to their P-95 and P-97. Nah, my hands knew better, as they have with several handguns.

    And since you’re talking GLOCK’s, well the G-21 feels like a 2×4 in my hand next to the Springfield XD .45 (more 2×2-ish). Used to own the Glock, so I know of what I speak.

    1. I agree that training can over-come just about any “issue” when it comes to piratical handguning, however, for some of us, grip angle can shorten the learning curve. Some pistols do, in my hand, naturally point better than others. If this is true for YOU, then one grip angle may be better than another. I know a lot of shooters that prefer the Glock-type grip angle over that of the 1911. This may due to ergonomics, or, just as likely, they have become accustom that grip and what it takes to make it point. In my case; I’m 1911 guy and with a Glock I find myself having to consciously force the muzzle down to get proper sight alignment. I know this is due to my having much more time on a 1911 and is no indication any real flaw in the Glock design. That being said, switching between the two styles gives me some grief. Saying it “makes no difference” is as wrong as saying “there is no difference” when there clearly is. There are at least three solutions; 1) sell the pistol that gives you grief, 2) deal with it, or 3) modify your gun(s) so that they all naturally point the same. I like option1, followed by option 3, then 2.

    2. @Rocky

      That was actually really well said. I know that most people do not have the in depth training to pick up any handgun, pistol or revolver, and make it work under stress. But I do encourage everyone to shoot a lot of different pistols every chance you get. First, it helps you develop the ability to quickly be able to adapt to any gun, and second, it’s fun!

    3. As a rule, going from Glock to 1911 messes with me the most; not because of grip angle, but because of the manual of arms differences. On one job I was issued a Glock and I promptly got to work getting good with it. I carried that pistol for 4 months and became very comfortable it. When I got back home and went to the range for the first time with my 1911 I had to re-learn, you guessed it, working the thumb safety. Going from 1911 to Glock is easy because sweeping a safety that’s not there doesn’t cost anything, but going from Glock to 1911, well, it’s kinda funny to watch!

  42. I’ve shot everything from combat Kimbers to Mauser Broomhandles, (yes, real ones) and it just takes a few shots to figure out the gun, and each of them is effective at combat ranges. We’re not talking Gold Cup standards here, just . . can I cap the bad guy before he caps me.

    When I was in SFQA they would hand us a canvas bag with several disassembled handguns or long guns in it. We would have to assemble them by sorting the parts and putting them together, and then go to the range and shoot to a minimum standard with them. They would range from Browning Hi Powers to 1911s to Makarovs. No fancy customization, just basic pistol marksmanship.

    I’m not saying there isn’t a certain benefit to custom grips and frames, just that in the long run, you learn to make the best and operate everything, and all the rest is gravy.

  43. I usually support Shooter’s Log writers given that when readers find themselves at odds with an article’s content it was most often their own fault for skimming or not catching an italicized warning which usually clarifies something the author knows will be controversial. Frequently others must point that out to the would-be antagonist to show how they missed a line of definement by an author.

    However, I am utterly floored that CTD allowed this to be published. Whoever authored this article is undoubtedly an amateur on this topic. The author is only correct in one aspect when they essentially stated that with enough practice any handgun can eventually be fired with effective result. Maybe so, during calm practice sessions at a paper target, but that is where it ends.

    The author’s following quote completely destroys any possible credibility of the content:

    “The angle of your handgun’s grip in relation to the bore simply does not matter, in any practical consideration.”

    A “practical consideration” is ALL that really does matter when faced with having to neutralize a real deadly threat. Given the fact that most ACTUAL engagements occur quickly and at distances of less than 20 feet, there is rarely enough time to even acquire your pre-rehearsed sight picture no matter how much you train. Instead, our bodies have a tendency to react by default with a more natural and instinctive point and fire method when faced with such stressful conditions.

    Therefore, when selecting any gun the natural grip angle suddenly becomes one of THE MOST important “practical considerations” when it comes to effectively neutralizing a threat to save your life.

    Further destruction of the article’s credibility came when the author stated the following:

    “But the fit of a handgun is a completely different story from the marketing myth of ergonomics.”

    You do not get to separate “Fit vs. Ergonomics” because ergonomics defines the entire handgun which MUST also include the characteristics caused by the grip angle. There is no way to around it. The very word “ergonomics” is used in the gun industry, police, and military to describe the science of a piece of equipment designed to fit the individual human, rather than forcing the human to fit or train to accommodate an odd design of the equipment.

    In closing I wish to add that training through repetition to develop and maintain muscle memory should always be a priority, but only after you have selected the MOST ergonomically designed weapon that best fits every possible aspect of your personal human design.

    1. G-Man,

      You know i agree with you most of the time and I have come to respect you, but if you’re trying to tell me that you can only shoot well under pressure with a gun that is a perfect ergonomic fit, then you and I have had some significant differences in our training and experiences.

      Yes, there are certain guns for any shooter that just fit well from the first moment you pick them up. A Walther PPX is a great example. But the fit to the hand is only one small aspect of shooting well. A PPX is one of the most natural fits I have ever picked up, but it is also a gun with a lot of muzzle flip every time you shoot it.

      You have to feel how each gun shoots.

      When I go to the range, I usually take about 5 different handguns with me, and I shoot pretty much an equal number of rounds through each one, each trip. Conventional wisdom is to always train mostly with the gun you’re going to carry. I was trained to learn to shoot whatever is available at any given moment quickly and efficiently by not having any preconceived ideas of what you “need” a gun to be in order to shoot it effectively.

      Many of you are LEOs and I respect that. Some of you are actual combat vets and I respect that. But I have operated from Iraq to Afghanistan to Lebanon and many times I had whatever was available at any given moment.

      A gun is a tool, and sometimes not a very refined tool, but it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

    2. @ Mikial,

      I am fairly certain you know this from previous posts, but before I continue, I’ll iterate my background so any new readers may better understand.

      My dual Military and Law Enforcement careers, which now spans just over 33 years, has taken me through deployments to the jungles of Asia and South America to combat in the middle-east, time spent in Europe and then back to various U.S. cities as an LEA.

      While I attempt to make a point, please bear in mind the following rough statistics – since WWII an average less than 7.3 percent of the living U.S. population is serving or has served in in the Military at any given moment. Likewise only 4 percent of the living U.S. population consists of sworn or retired Law Enforcement. That is an exceptionally small percentage of persons professionally trained in a manner similar to that which you or me has been exposed.

      Keeping that in mind, I must kindly respond that you have overlooked that very important characteristic which makes dialogue between you and me quite exclusive when compared to the rest of the gun-owning American population in general. Like me, your experiences and training make you exceptionally trained and thereby places you in a very small minority of specialists qualified to do a job with many weapons that few others have ever been afforded the opportunity, training, or practice time to accomplish.

      So while exchanges between you and I can and do encompass your philosophy, it does not apply to the majority of Americans that own or will own a gun. Nor does it necessarily apply to an equivalent amount of representative Shooter’s Log members that may read our comments. It is from this perspective that I chose to address the majority and not the exceptional minority, and therefore I stand by my original statements.

      I would humbly implore you to reconsider and do the same.

    3. @ Mikial,

      No apology necessary. As I’ve stated, your position was 100% correct… assuming we were all SF sitting around chewing the fat after an op together. So I can see how easily frustrating it must have been for you to read something like that from someone like me… that is until I clarified my intended audience to you.

      I’ve done it too. We can sometimes forget in forums we are not always in the company of people with the same experiences or training as us. And while I could win a bet the Shooter’s Log does attract quite a few of us, the majority of readers are more likely civilian gun enthusiasts trying to increase their knowledge any way they can. I highly respect them for that and therefor will cater to that noble cause.

      Thanks for being so understanding.

    4. @Mikial:

      I’m in total agreement with your “grab any gun and shoot it effectively” theory.

      I have NEVER said to myself “hey this gun doesn’t fit me”. One time I messed with the optional back plate on my Glock 20 Gen4, but quickly found out it was best to stay with the way it came out of the box.

      Comparing this to my previous hobby of golf, where shaft length, stiffness, grip, and club head angle all make huge differences in performance, basically there is no comparison. Gun ergonomics are a misnomer and a marketing tool.

      Plus even if some people do customize their guns for that perfect fit or perfect feel, remember that our bodies change every day. Some days we are weaker or stronger, nervous/shaky or confident/calm. On some days that custom fit/feel may not be the same.

      Even though I have no military or law enforcement credentials, I have common sense and intelligence and plenty of practice with plenty of guns.

    5. @ss1

      Thank you, my friend. And I want to say that G-Man made a good point that ‘most’ shooters do not have the training or outlook that a person should be able to pick up any gun and shoot it well under pressure. Of course, practice and training are critical. No argument there. And yes, there are modifications to guns that make them fit better and feel more natural.

      But, MOST, not all, but most modern guns take ergonomics into consideration when they are designed and refined over the years. Consequently, I would invite all shooters to open up to the concept that if you are willing to learn to adapt to a wide range of grip angles and shapes and not limit yourselves to the perfect grip angle, they will find that their shooting improves, and with it, their confidence and capacity to effectively shoot a wider range of guns.

    6. You nailed it. Very well said. Pathetic article. Seemed like another arrogant guy trying to say he’s a good shooter only because of HIM, and the gun has nothing to do with it.

  44. Grip angle is one of many factors in ergonomics, but will not by itself determine how well a pistol fits your hand or points naturally. Claiming that grip angle doesn’t matter is just as misleading as claiming it’s the only thing that matters.

    Unfortunately, within the next 12-18 hours any attempt to constructively discuss the content of this post will be utterly futile. Within that time this comment section will be overflowing with hundreds of posts with the same basic content.

    “I [love|hate] [Glock|1911] pistols, and they’re the [best|worst] pistol that has been or ever will be. Anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot and a dirty liberal gun-grabber.”

    While I know it was merely meant as an example, I don’t think the author could have chosen a more divisive comparison to use.

    1. @Adam:

      OMG I love your humor!!!! There should be more humor on these blogs!!

      But I have to correct you on your “hundreds of posts” comment. From my experience here, to get to HUNDREDS of posts, the topic either has to be about Obama or California, 🙂

  45. It seems that we are again involved in a discussion that has no basis in reality accept to the individual who is making the choice in the first place. Blanket statements are, for the most part, just plain BS. What the author says may well be true …. For him. It is man and likely is true for others as well.
    Is it true for all handgun owners, shooters, LEO, and military?
    Not likely, and I’d go so far as to say not at all, in any way, period.
    It’s a shame that CTD/TSL allowed this kind of narrow thought process to be aired here. There seems to only be a couple of good writers who blog here any more, Woody, Dave Dolbee and maybe one or two others. Blogs here used to be informative and somewhat neutral offering several pinpoints of view supporting a healthy debate and discussion. Not so much it seems any more.
    I respect the Un-named Bloggers opinion as his perspective and what works best for him. Equally for those those who find some value in this perspective, more power to you.
    That its stated as if it’s the only truth or reality that matters and everything else is crap. No, sorry, but I gotta call BS on it.
    I can’t shoot a Glock, it’s never been a comfortable (ergonomic) fit in either hand. However, Any of the Springfield XD or XDm series are as if it was my hand that they were designed to fit. Maybe by generation 18 or 19 Glock will get around to correcting my issue with sir frame. Not very likely, right?
    Point? Ergonomics does count. It counts for a lot. If this fundamental concept didn’t matter all firearms today might still look and be designed like a 1500’s Wheel Lock pistol or rifle. But guess what?? They don’t! Why? Because designers evolved their platforms as an understanding of “ergonomics” became part of their design process.
    Forward to current design practices today and it’s become a refined art. One that Just Dosnt Work For Everyone! Which brings us right around to the After Market Parts thru DYI soldering irons mod’s. It’s a fact of our nature to make a device fit our use.
    Sorry, did not intend to lecture or preach. I don’t agree with the sum nation derived in the above blog but will defend the bloggers right to express it.

  46. The author hit it spot on!

    I own Glocks, XDs, 1911s, Berettas, Taurus, Rugers, Hi Points, Desert Eagles, etc. Yes, some have little idiosyncrasies that you need to learn to shoot them at optimal effectiveness, but it’s just a matter of practice with your guns so that you can shoot any of them effectively. The only modification I have ever done is a 4 pound trigger for my Glock 21, which is what I used for USPSA Stock division shoots.

    You can learn to shoot any gun well. I took a new Hi Point .45 to the range the other day for the first time. It is a gun i keep in one of my caches and I wanted to function check it before putting it away. I told my wife (who is a dead shot with her Beretta 92) that it was an inexpensive gun so it may not be as accurate. She watched as I shot out the Red X circle on the silhouette. We both looked at each other and she said, “Doesn’t look all that cheap to me.”

    The point is, a good marksman can learn to shoot any gun well. Sure, we all like some guns better than others, but this whole ergonomics thing has been blown out of proportion.

  47. Fit IS ergonomics – your over simplification and dismissal of this fact in my opinion renders the whole article nothing more than a Glock apology/justification

    The ergonomics of a gun goes beyond whether you can reach the trigger and mag release – it very much includes how it feels in your hand and how comfortable it is for you to shoot

    Can I practice sufficiently to hit my target holding a gun upside down? Sure. Do I want to? No

    Whether or not someone can practice enough with the awkward feeling Glock is irrelevant – you’re effectively saying that the shooter’s personal feeling of what is ergonomic or a good fit is meaningless and they should learn to overcome it and shoot a Glock – baloney

    For everyone who likes Glocks, that’s great for you – everyone should shoot what works best for them – personally I hate Glocks – they feel awkward and sloppy and I dislike the triggers and their general ergonomics – my Beretta 92 and PX4, Colt 45, and Sig P232 all feel much more natural in my hand and with each one I shot dead center where I pointed out of the box without special practice – I have no problem hitting the target with any of the Glocks I’ve tried, I just don’t like them and why should anyone spend time practicing to deal with issues with a gun they personally don’t like – it’s great you like your Glock, but you frankly have no business insinuating to people it’s THEIR fault for not practicing enough if they don’t like them

    1. Agreed on everyone should shoot what they like and do best with, but the author clearly said they were simply using Glocks and 1911s as examples. Not sure why you are so upset about this.

      The author was simply saying that custom grips and frames are not necessary. The point here was simply, practice with what you have, and as long as it’s reliable, you can reach the controls, and you practice with it, you will be fine.

    2. I reread it just in case, but I have to say it still reads like a giant “if you don’t shoot a Glock it’s because you don’t have a functioning brain and/or aren’t willing to put in enough practice time” – the opening salvo was a foolish declaration that the man-machine interface ergonomics of pistol shooting is a sham, which is somewhere between hyperbole and utter BS – his “advice” is dangerous – telling anyone to ignore how a gun feels in your hand, how it points for you, etc is very poor advice – I’m upset by such myopia having been through a self-defense shooting, the point made by someone else earlier couldn’t be more true – in a suddenly evolving life and death situation, there was only time to act and no time to “take a sight picture” – all that “sight picture” practice to overcome an awkward feeling gun is useless when the situation devolves into draw, point, shoot before the other guy – when that happens, you better have a gun in your hand that you can instinctively and accurately point shoot without even raising it to eye level, let alone line up your sight picture – in my case, two punks in Rogers Park stepped out to rob us, one pulled up his shirt to reach for a gun, I got to mine first and had to literally shoot from the hip – he lost with four holes in his chest, the other f’er turned and ran – the Chicago cops were surprisingly cool about it although having my wife and daughter and two other witnesses and the punk’s gun on the ground next to him probably had something to do with it – but I still expected to have to call USCCA

      Everyone should find the guns that are comfortable and feel right for them and ignore BS about fit and feel being unimportant – aside from no one should sign up to shoot a gun they don’t like because some blogger told they just need to put the practice to get over your dislike, it’s because when push comes to shove your life may just depend on how well that gun fits and feels in your hand – but that will be different for each person, not some fool blogger trying to excuse why people don’t like his preferred gun

      If you like a particular gun, great – tell people why YOU like it – don’t tell them the reasons THEY don’t like it are stupid or BS and imply is because they must not have a functioning brain or aren’t willing to practice enough – now THAT is stupid and BS

    3. Whatever.

      My EDC is an XD. I also love my Glock, my Walther PPX, my Taurus 24/7, my Beretta, my Desert Eagles, and really all the other handguns I own. I shoot pretty consistently well with all of them. Even my Hi Point.

      I’m not easily insulted by a shooter who likes a specific gun or who disagrees with me on a shooting topic.

      If it works for you, and you are one of the good guys . . more the better. If that requires that you spend an additional thousand dollars above the cost of the gun to customize it, then go for it.

  48. I’m with Tom on the fit thing. I find that if a pistol approximates the grip of a 1911 w/flat mainspring housing, I shoot it well with almost no effort. I had a Walther P38 for a while, good gun, reliable, decent trigger and sights, but it took all I had to shoot it well. Sold it to a buddy for whom it was a perfect fit, like my 1911 was for me. Can I shoot Glocks well? With care, yes. But they don’t fit my hand. They say that in a fight you are half as good as you are in practice. Given that, I want all the edge I can get, and a natural point of aim is an edge. So are good sights! But YMMV.

    1. Excellent point re: what each person considers a natural point of aim and why that is an important factor in a critical situation – that is an often ignored fact

  49. Okay the stippling thing is more for grip, that’s why I did my G21 and 17. The polymer frame is slick after your hand start to sweat. The angle of the grip on the Glock pistol is to keep the muzzle flip to a minimum vs. the 1911 which I do own 3. I own 3 glocks as well. In order to have the 1911s fit my hand relatively well I need to have a the main spring housing (palm swell) a bit more rounded so the grip fills up my hand more that also changes the grip angle a little. Remember that with the Glocks the barrel sits lower in the frame than with the 1911 but the 1911 is also a heavier gun. Why in gods name you would be comparing the two is beyond me. Its like comparing a corvette to a telescope.

  50. I had carry a 1911 in the service and I loved it,but it had a small magazine, now I carry one of two Glocks 45 Larger magazine and same fire power from a 45 semi auto. And on either of my Glocks I have not changed any parts and test fire on a regular basis. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Only difference I keep one in the chamber.

  51. But sometimes you pick up a pistol or revolver and it just “fits” your hand. I don’t know what the difference but every now and then you find a weapon that just feels good. ( and they are usually priced out of my wallets range) but really, some guns just feel better. But I like all guns , except for my little Jennings J 22. Its a chore to keep running well. peace out!

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