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How to Fix NICS

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Guest post by Larry Keane, Senior VP and General Counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation  Following the recent tragedies in Charleston, Chattanooga and Lafayette, there has been considerable discussion in the media about how the National Instant Criminal Background Check system (NICS) works. Some observations have been off-target, research having been sacrificed for deadlines or the writer’s preconceptions. But some of this discussion has been more reasoned and accurate. We welcome this latter discussion.

The NICS system run by the FBI was established 17 years ago with Congressional passage of the Brady Act. Today, it is generally not known that instant criminal background check system was the recommendation of the firearms industry. For the most part, the system works. We know this system better than anyone because our retailers are on the front lines every day using it to help protect public safety.

Despite what you hear from those who just don’t know better, or worse, those who want to use the politics of division on this issue for political advantage, no one who sells firearms for their livelihood wants to put a gun into the hands of a criminal or a mentally unstable individual. We have families and are citizens, too. We know what guns can do when in the wrong hands. But make no mistake about this: the many thousands of Americans who work in the firearms industry are tired of being portrayed as villains. For the national background check system to work, all applicable records based on current law have to be entered into it at the state level. After all, any system is only as good as the accuracy and completeness of its database. This is where we all can agree that the system needs improvement.

We are in the third year of our industry’s national effort to ensure that the system has all the appropriate records put into it. We call the initiative FixNICS, and we have been successful through our direct efforts to convince 16 state legislatures to pass legislation to ensure that there are no statutory, regulatory, administrative or procedural impediments to entering all appropriate records – criminal and mental health – into NICS.

Yes. The “gun lobby” did that. We prefer to be called the firearms industry, but yes, we did that. We don’t expect the gun control groups to provide any credit to our industry. It runs counter to the narrative that they proffer, and that is too often accepted without challenge by reporters who should know that verifying information should be part of every story they file.

Several times, the gun control groups have tried to grab credit for the legislative victory. But we were there on the ground in the states and we know. When the microphones and cameras leave the press conference on the state capitol front steps, what’s left is the hard work of convincing legislators and their staffs to write and pass a bill and then for the governor to sign it. For this behind-the-scenes and time-consuming work, the anti-gun groups are absent.

The second part of our FixNICS initiative has focused on helping to ensure that the states administratively assign the resources, guidelines, training and procedures, whatever is required, to make sure that the responsible jurisdictions submit all the appropriate records in as accurate, timely and complete a manner as possible. We accomplished this very task in Nebraska in 2013. Testifying in favor of the same legislation was the Commissioner of the State Police.

At the same time, working in Washington, D.C., we have always sought to ensure that the FBI/NICS office gets the resources it needs to carry out is mission on behalf of the American people.

In the Charleston case, the FBI examiner ultimately failed to obtain the police report where the accused shooter had apparently admitted to being an illegal user of a controlled substance – grounds to issue a denial.

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal has said that the mentally unstable Lafayette theater shooter should not have been able to purchase a firearm. While we await more details on that case, we must point out that Louisiana directly as a result of our FixNICS efforts did act in 2103 to fully report all records to NICS. The Governor urged other states to follow Louisiana’s example on CNN’s The Situation Room.

The anti-gun lobby wants to extend background checks to cover private sales, saying they will cover the “40 percent” of gun sales that do not get background checks, the so-called “Gun Show loophole.” This stat, based on a very small 1996 poll sample, was discredited by the Washington Post. A study by the U.S. Department of Justice  of prison inmates found less than one percent (0.7) of criminals that possessed a firearm during their current offense acquired their guns from gun shows.

And now we have the actual experience of Colorado after enacting such “universal background checks.” The Associated Press  crunched the numbers for the Rocky Mountain State and found a 7-percent uptick. And you can bet that those transactions were between law-abiding citizens whose guns posed no threats.

All of this argues for fixing NICS as the best solution for improving the system in the manner that will make the most difference and that will best serve the American people. We’ve been saying that all along.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (75)

  1. I think that mental health records should be added to the database for background checks. I’ve got a close friend who once told me that the last person to own a firearm is his brother. He stated that his brother has always had mental issues. yet because of state law he can purchase firearms as many as he wants. Now if someone say’s this about a family member I think it ought to be able to be admitted into there records.

  2. The U.S. should look to it’s neighbor to the south, Mexico, for experience in gun laws and violence.

    Mexico does allow Mexican citizens to own firearms, but only if they pay the extremely expensive fees, pass through the bureaucratic hoops (which includes not just a criminal check but also a “mental health” check), and know the “right” people in high places. However, the average Mexican will still be denied a gun-permit in Mexico, even if they can afford the permit and pass the ridiculous red-tape. Simply put, very, very few people in Mexico have a valid weapon permit. Majority of them are the ultra-wealthy, which are either politicians or connected to politicians….what a coincidence.

    Does this effective gun-ban stop violence in Mexico? No. Does this type of system prevent the violent drug cartel members – practically all felons – from gaining access to weapons? No. Does this system prevent fully automatic weapons from falling into the hands of evildoers? No. Does the extremely restrictive gun-ownership laws/regulations in Mexico do anything to protect ordinary citizens? No.

    Other countries, particularly in Central and South America, Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe and Asia (I guess that’s most of the world), have the exact same problem: highly restrictive gun laws or outright gun-bans, yet, the rate of violent crime is almost always higher than the U.S.; even those countries with a smaller population than the U.S.

    More laws, more background checks, more everything, will NOT help anything.

  3. I’ve always thought that 40% claim sounded bogus. Here in Washington state, the gun shows I’ve gone to have always required the NICS background check to be a member. Non-members can still go and buy accessories and related items, but you have be a member to buy or sell firearms or ammo or to even walk in or out of the gun show with a firearm. This was the policy of the gun show and not a requirement under state law.

    Last year, however, a new state law was passed by a citizens initiative that requires the NICS background check for almost every kind of gun “transfer.” Fear of that so-called 40% gun show loophole drove voters to pass it, even though that statistic was supposed to be nationwide and not statewide, and now to see that statistic completely debunked is just more salt in the wound.

  4. Doesn’t the law require a court ruling of metal incompetence or involuntary commitment to an institution before one is banned from buy a firearm. Not just an opinion by a psychologies.

  5. With a population that currently DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PSYCHOLOGIST & A PSYCHIATRIST, we have spurious terminology being spewed by AMATEURS that may or may not be based on reality. Any representation by an accredited Psychologist represents the OPINION of someone with college + 2 yrs.
    Any representation by an accredited PSYCHIATRIST represents the opinion of somone with college plus 6-8 yrs of post graduate training INCLUDING A DEGREE IN MEDICINE.! + Clinical Examination(s).!

    Our current problem with “the records” existing today is that most
    allegations of mental instability are the result of a simple inference by an
    unknown author with unknown credentials. In other words – if your
    high school advisor (or “social worker” ) has deliberately or mistakenly written notes in your record implying Mental Disorder – You are stuck with that “appraisal” absent substantiation of any kind.

    Mental Disorder is bandied about Frivolously by Civilian Amateurs with access to a Government Keyboard. Given the potentential for abuse, or mis-use, we would be enshrining Garbage In / Garbage Out (“GIGO”) information in “OUR DATABASE”, AND THE POTENTIAL IS TO FOREVER WRONGFULLY PUT ANY CITIZEN ON THEIR “NO FLY (NO GUN) LIST”.

    Our data is speculative at best, and it is far too inaccurate to currently incorporate in our screening process.

    1. Way wrong on the psychologist vs psychiatrist part.

      A licensed psychologist requires a PhD (or PsyD for the clinical orientation) in psychology (~7yrs of college), whose entire college schooling has been devoted to the study of the mind along with interning in a psych clinic.

      A licensed psychiatrist is a medical school doctor who has a taken some psychology classes and then residency training in a hospital psych ward.

      Both have equal amount of OPINION on your sanity, but the later is more likely to just throw meds at you since they can and write you up as insane while the former will more likely work with you since they cannot prescribe meds before writing you off.

      Side note:
      A master’s level (~5yrs of college) in psych/counseling allows you to be a licensed counselor, not a psychologist.

    2. Wolf you can argue with Dr.Curtis about qualifications. His point is the point. Obama wanted a no fly list to be used to disqualify someone from gun ownership. How about a President Bernie Sanders or President Michelle Obama or Oprah Winfrey. The 2nd amendment is the law of the land. The more creative a lunatic politician gets. The less freedom we have. The system has been so perverted by politicians with an agenda that’s inconsistent with the constitution. You can’t take anything for granted. Food for thought. If someone gets caught with pot in Tennessee and someone else gets caught with pot in California. Which one stands a better chance of getting charged with a felony? If we sit by and lose sight of the big picture, we will lose the 2nd amendment. If the lower 48 interpret the 2nd in 48 different ways. Or according to 48 different agendas. It’s all over. And anyone that thinks it’s not possible is a fool. If Obama wasn’t so busy sticking it to the nation in other ways. He could have severely damaged the 2nd amendment. And the establishment would have sat on there hands just like they did as he schreaded the constitution at will. The name Eric Holder should send a chill down your spine. Just my opinion as a white middle age american male. The most hated group on the face of the planet.

    3. Fantastic response! Thank you!

      I’d also like to add to your comment. In regards to PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) diagnosis which will/can prevent people from not only purchasing firearms, but owning existing firearms too.

      PTSD is such a broad “diagnosis” it’s laughable. Veterans can suffer from PTSD, but someone from a car accident or bad divorce can be diagnosed with PTSD as well.

      There is sufficient evidence that all too often, a person is “diagnosed” with PTSD for even the most minor symptoms like chronic headaches after a traumatic event. The media typically depicts PTSD patients as severely depressed or even psychotic, which isn’t always the case.

      However, following the typical “ban-everything-that-looks-and-sounds-evil” crowd, we can naturally see how our veterans will likely be stripped of their 2A rights in the future: by the abuse of PTSD diagnosis and these “mental illness” claims which aren’t always valid.

      When it’s all said and done, every person on the planet could be diagnosed with some type of disorder, no matter how minor or extreme.

      We don’t take away a person’s 1st Amendment right b/c he or she has Tourette’s Syndrome and curses or screams uncontrollably which likely offends people. Yet, we whisk away other rights without thinking twice.

      Thank you again Dr. Steven Curtis for your insight!

  6. NICS was NOT “devised […] to protect against known criminal and crazies”, it is there to establish legitimacy and precedent to preempt (therefore undermining) our rights.

    Removing this preemption of rights does not turn America into a “free fire zone”, and proof of that immovable fact can be found simply by looking at what this country was like prior to NICS. THIS NOTION OF YOURS, is the true “rhetoric” in this debate.

    I either have the right to keep and bear arms or I don’t. There is no such thing as a “right” to something if the government makes the final decision. That is no right, that is a privilege.

    So which is it? Do you support the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, or not?

  7. IF there is going to be a NICS, it should consist of a list of known violent felons and mentally unfit people that is issued to FFL holders and updated regularly. If they are on the list they don’t get a gun and the felons get arrested.

    More preferable, however, is to only have laws against gun control, period.

  8. The problem is societal, never is or was a firearm issue.

    NICS isn’t broken. NICS itself should not exist and in fact it only infringes on the law-abiding. That said, given millions of sales, the error rate is almost not measurable. Add to this, what is an error rate? How does the NICS system stack up and compare? From what I understand, the NICS rates well.

    In the end, criminals are not filling out 4473’s at the FFL or concerned at all about adhering to law. They typically steal or purchase a stolen article.

  9. What a crowd! We have “50calAl” living in a bunker next to “Vector16”, enjoying the internet ( Gov’t controlled, by the way ) and dissing people who have served our great nation. Funny how you bunker rats want action, but are to cowardly to go find it. You are the reason we have these kind of systems in the first place. You scare the hell out of normal citizenry with your rhetoric. Yes, rhetoric. You haven’t “lived the dream” like Mikial has,( Thanks. Mikial! ) I too served, and you people who haven’t may THINK you know about the Gov’t, but you are wrong. Until you’ve been a cog in the machine, you are guessing. I served in the USN, part of my time with Special Projects, seeing more things than the American people will EVER see or hear about. The point of this story is fixing NICS. It’s here, it’s probably not going anywhere. Focus on the solution, not the problem. Do we need a way to keep bonefide crazies from having deadly weapons. Period. I have a bat-sh#@! crazy family member, and I dread the day he finds out how to get a gun. Me, I own enough for you, me, and a few neighbors should the zombie apocalypse actually occur, and I am definitely one of those Vets that scare the crap out of Hillary and Barry. It doesn’t mean I think EVERYONE should have guns. Maybe if you saw the Middle East up close, and the resultant chaos of free-fire zones for anyone capable of pulling a trigger you MIGHT understand. Some folks should NOT own a gun. The stories of “accused” having guns taken away is part of the problem we need to solve, not a battle cry against a system devised ( poorly at this time ) to protect against known criminal and crazies. A few died from Polio vaccines, or contracted the disease. If 50cal or Vector were around, they would have wanted the vaccine GONE. It’s called “throwing away the baby with the bathwater”, and it’s not effective. You don’t stop a viable solution to a problem by terminating the solution due to a few bugs. Fix the bugs.

    1. @ Andrew N.

      Actually, Polio Vaccines are GONE, there No Longer Given Out like when we were Children. Now a Parent has to actually ask a Healthcare Provider to Vaccinate Your Child.

      Cali B&M…

  10. When will people realize that the gun grabbers ultimate goal is civilian disarmament and they will go about it one small step at a time. Every time there is a compromise and middle ground is found and enacted, they move the goalposts.

  11. Let me say this, as a 100% disabled Vietnam(1969)combat veteran enlisting into Army Infantry to follow my families footsteps serving our country, the ONLY GUN LAW IN AMERICA IS THE 2nd AMMENDMENT, PERIOD! WHAT PART OF “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED” DON’T YOU PEOPLE GET? Lost most of my hearing when wounded by a land mine a new guy stepped on 5 meters in front of me! I want to have suppressors on all of my hand guns, shotguns, rifles so I can save what is left of it BUT I CAN’T AFFORD THE COSTS, THE BS RED TAPE, ETC! I want all illegal gun laws deleted where everyone can own & carry from the age of 18. I started shooting M-1 Carbines, 45 auto when I was 5 years old. I bought my 1st pistol a single action 22 when I was 12 at 15 I bought a 44 mag. single action while my dad gave me rifles, shotguns for X-Mass & my birthday, I worked hard on the farm growing up & my spare time worked for ranchers bailing hay etc. to earn my own money, I bought a motorcycle at 14, bought a clunker T Bird when I was 16, my dad made me take it back & demanded I got my money back from car dealer who argued in my favor(his too) until my dad gave him my age! What is every ones problem with that? The mentally ill, criminals etc. will be culled when they do any killing, robbing etc. by the rest of us! Dear God leave us all alone!!!

    1. AMEN Brother! AMEN! All the other ones on here that want to be “Reasonable” and “Concede” certain points are CLUELESS to the FACT that being THAT way is EXACTLY what got us to where we are in the first place and it will NEVER STOP until “They” have EVERYTHING! It’s WHAT “THEY” DO!

    2. Chickenhawk,

      We must be about the same age, times sure have changed and it’s so sad to see our country go down the tubes. Sad to think the freedom’s you fought for and those who gave it all are just brushed aside and no one has the balls to stand tall and say HELL NO!

      Thank you for your service, welcome home! God Bless You Sir.

  12. NICS is just another step of gun registration we do not the government to help us they just mess things up an matters worse.

  13. The ONLY way to “fix NICS” is to GET RID OF IT! It’s MEANINGLESS and will only be used MORE and MORE AGAINST LAW-ABIDING, RIGHTEOUS, GOD FEARING AMERICANS that OBEY the Laws. And while you’re at it, DO NOT give “Them” the power over Mental Health because once they lock it up it’s ONLY a matter of time before “They” declare EVERYONE that even WANTS to own something as “Dangerous” as a Gun MENTALLY ILL and therefore, INELLIGIBLE!!! “A Man’s rights reside in three boxes, the Ballot box, the Jury box, and the Cartridge box.” Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum!

  14. Maybe some of you guys are aware that there is a BIG difference between an arrest and a conviction BUT when an arrest takes place you will be booked aka photo AND three copies of your fingerprints taken. One stays with the agency that arrested you, another copy goes to the state you are in and the third to the FBI. If you are not convicted NONE of the three will purge their records of the arrest. You will have to file a motion in a court of record to get it done. After the judge issues an order you can’t be sure they complied. IF you have connections (like you know a LEO) have them check your record. Most times nothing has been purged. Back to court. Contempt of court. Years have passed. It is no fun. NICS will turn you down. Supposedly there is no database of your purchases. Don’t believe it. Govt get out!!

  15. Well, we’ve tried to support examples of how we can improve and make NICS work for us, because quite frankly, it doesn’t work against us. Well, it doesn’t work against me anyway. I’m not a felon or a certifiable crazy or an illegal alien or a drug addict or a wife beater. So, I haven’t had any instances where it has prevented me from buying another gun.

    The truth is felons and crazy people who shoot up theaters full of families who just wanted to go to a movie and eat popcorn shouldn’t have guns. No, we can’t stop them from getting them, but we can at least reduce the chances that they can just walk in off the street and buy one at Gander Mountain. That doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights.There is a God-given right to bear weapons to protect yourself, but that right ends at the point it begins to affect my rights to live free and unmolested.

    If that somehow offends your sensibilities and makes you feel persecuted and angry, then I guess that’s why me and mine carry, so that if some angry anarchist or Muslim or just plain crazy person decides to perpetrate an atrocity we can at least fight back.

    As for dismantling the NICS or the government, good luck with that. It ain’t going to happen. I do not and will never support the universal background checks. Period. Private individuals have a right to give or sell their private property to someone, but there is nothing wrong with protecting licensed gun dealers from selling guns to crazies or felons.

    Trust me, Brothers, I have spent years working in places like Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iraq. You do not want anarchy.

    1. “As for dismantling the NICS or the government, good luck with that. It ain’t going to happen”

      The government is supposed to be working for us. not the other way around there, chief.

      There comes a time in every country that the government oversteps their bounds and the people revolt against them. So, this sort of thing not only can happen but, it will happen. So all you can do is hope that you are ready for it when it does and hope you are on the right side when it does.

      The military, even though they are under a command have still taken the oath to protect the constitution from all threats foreign and domestic. If that threat happens to be the government itself then so be it.

    2. @ vector16.

      The only problem I see, is Command Authority. If the Threat is the Government Itself, Who Determines Command Authority. And with Police Departments going “Rogue”, it’s only a matter of time before the Posse Comitatus Act incorporates them too…

    3. Hi, Secundius.

      No idea. I don’t live there and I’ve never bought a gun at Gander Mountain. They are way overpriced. 😉

      I was simply using that as an example of a place some people buy guns.

      Other than a few purchases at gun shows, I buy on-line. CTD, J&G, CDNN and GunBroker all give better deals than over the counter. Same with ammo. I do my transfers through a local range.

    4. @ Mikial.

      After you mentioned Gander Mountain, I look online for the Nearest Location and was Surprised that they had on in Northern Virginia. I thought when you mentioned Gander Mountain, your were referring to the Nearest One. My mistake, I’m starting to Distrust CTD, because of their constant “Misleading” reporting on Curtain Products (aka DP-12) which by the way can be Bought and Owned in California. A group of my friend tried in Vain to Put the Word Out, but unfortunately Nobody Was Listening…

    5. There is one near me, and I have been in there for some other items besides gun related, but I don’t necessarily want to out out where I live on this blog. Too many hotheads, and I’d hate to have to explain to the police how it was this person ended up on the wrong end of my Saiga.

      As for CTD, they have some good points, and I have bought quite a bit from them. But they have some shortfalls too. For one, their method of shipping things from multiple warehouses really pushes their shipping charges up and over the top enough that I have gone elsewhere for the thing I would have otherwise bought from them. But when the S&H is as much as the items I’m buying, I draw the line.

      The other thing is that my transfer dealer and I have noticed a pattern of them being less than easy to deal with when buying firearms from them. To quote my transfer dealer, “They’re a bunch of jerks.” I don’t know if I would put it that strongly, but I am not dealing with them in the same way he is.

      And, yeah, I am in northern Virginia, just not Woodbridge. 😉

    6. @ Mikial.

      Just got a Cordial Response from Ms. (I Think) Suzanne Wiley, interesting? First time EVER, too. I try not to Agitate People in the Forum, but sometimes that not easy to do. Have BUTT-HEADS with G-Man a Couple or So Times. I’m the Joe Scarborough type, while HE’sss the G-Man type. If you have any questions on the DP-12, let me know. RY, Sec…

    7. @ Mikial.

      I want to Apologize to you Sir. I went out for my weekly Physical Therapy today, and forgot to take my morning Med’s. Upon arriving home, I had to take them with my Afternoon Med’s and the drug interaction between the two set made me a “Little Loopy”, normally I don’t VENT. But today I VENTED. My Deepest Apologize’s to you Sir. RY, Sec…

    8. @Mikial
      You should look at Galleryofguns.com They are the whole sale company that supplies many of the gun stores in the US

    9. Problem is the system has infringed on people who it shouldn’t, but because it hasn’t (yet) effected you your OK with the system, that’s sad you feel that way. Here in NY anyone who works in the medical field, even a low level nurse, can report you to the state and there goes your rights to own arms. All they have to do is make an anonymous report that they are “concerned” you might be a threat to yourself or others, a hunch on a whim and your rights are gone. They are shield by the law from any responsibility for getting it wrong, you have no right to even know who, where, when or why it was reported, make an anti-gun nurse mad who knows you own guns and they could make your life miserable. You have no recourse other then hire a lawyer and fight it, it could take tens of thousands of dollars and years to get your rights back, in the mean time, the guns the police took from your home have been destroyed and without compensation for the value.

      When Andy passed the SafeAct his hand picked head ot the NYSP created a task force to data mine all medical records, they searched for anyone who had been prescribed anti-depressants or seeked help from a doctor or psychologist and checked to see if any of them had pistol permits. The NYSP had a test case, found their first victim and pulled his permit, BTW the SafeAct also states if you loose your permit that take ALL your guns! When the guy hired a lawyer and it hit the news the SP backed down, returned his permit and guns but claimed they got the wrong guy, right name, wrong man, but they never did find the right David, David is now suing the state, search the net, you’ll find the stories. Andy still has his task force in place and you can be sure they are still (illegally) mining medical records and will be used when the new five year permit review starts, we’ll see a lot of people getting denied renewals and loose ALL their guns. They have already taken all firearms from a bunch of people down state around Westchester area.

      Same goes for these “fixes for the NICS checks” these aren’t fixes, they are just another way to take more guns from more innocet people, they don’t need new laws to enforce the laws already on the books!

      Well as long as they don’t come for you, no need to worry right? Yeah, until they come for you…..

      First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

      Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

      Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

      Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    10. You’re not a felon or a certifiable crazy or an illegal alien or a drug addict or a wife beater, so you have no complaints. Sounds alot like “First they came for the Jews, I wasn’t a Jew, so I didn’t speak up …. (several groups later) Then they came for me, and noone was left to speak.”

      What about the Veterans whom have been denied their rights due to blanket diagnoses like PTSD? You going to stand up for them? What line does NICS have to cross to become antagonistic to our rights?

      “That doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights.”
      Actually, it does. Its called PREEMPTION OF RIGHTS. You are preventing me from buying arms if I don’t go through your government gatekeepers and their arbitrary list. If I have not been convicted of a crime (like 99.999% of those that go through background checks), this is a violation of my rights.

      Now, NICS would NOT be a preemption of the check was voluntary on part of the seller. If it was purely a resource the government provided at-will to dealers and private individuals, I’d welcome it. That’s called a PUBLIC SERVICE. Mandating it is PREEMPTION.

      “Private individuals have a right to give or sell their private property to someone, but there is nothing wrong with protecting licensed gun dealers from selling guns to crazies or felons.”
      This statement contradicts your position! What makes a private seller any different than a private dealer selling firearms? Why does the dealer have less rights than a normal individual?

      Barring someone from firearms ownership should be a SENTENCE that someone receives after being CONVICTED OF A CRIME, GIVEN DUE PROCESS. Arbitrary government lists /bureaucracies that aim to be mere partisan WEAPONS used against political dissent HAVE NO PLACE IN OUR REPUBLIC!

      And STOP comparing people who disagree with you on policy to ANARCHISTS! Its pathetic!

    11. I’d much rather have anarchy than jack-booted tyranny. Society definitely needs rules, but we don’t need rulers.

      If the goal is to get weapons out of the hands of mentally unstable individuals, a good place to start would be the majority of the police. Many are roid-raging psychopaths, and even the ones who aren’t are guilty of supporting and covering up the ones who are.

      What do we need police for, anyway? Society functioned just fine before the invention of “professional” law enforcement. The reason is similar to why you rarely hear of shooting rampages even at unsupervised shooting ranges. Most people are decent enough, and we can protect our own homes and communities. We don’t need a state-sponsored gang with a monopoly on legitimate force.

  16. There has to be a system to prevent the sale of guns to crazies and criminals. Period. It’s not a bad thing, even though it is a pain in the butt. It’s also not perfect . . . nothing is despite what Glock says. There are a lot of people denied by the system who shouldn’t be able to just walk in a store and buy a gun.

    Do criminals still get guns? Yes. Do crazies still get guns? Yes. Which is why all law abiding citizens should be armed.

    1. Mikial,
      Stores have nothing to do with it. If you are a known felon or a known mentally ill individual you are unable to walk into a shop and purchase.
      If you are someone that is on trial but have not been convicted that is a different story. If you are on trial and the verdict is “not guilty” and you have already marked this person as unsafe. You have just denied them their 2A right for life unless they know how to get the DOJ to release the record before they feel like it.

      As I said in one of my last posts, if I want a gun, I can walk into any local bar and ask anyone if they need some more drinking money and buy their firearm they have in the glove box of their car. CASH and WALK.

    2. What do you mean stores have nothing to do with it? Legitimate dealers are the only venue NICS has any effect on. Of course a criminal came get a gun through other means. I’ve bought handguns at yard sales, and I’ve bought and sold guns from and to LEO friends of mine. I had a friend give me an SKS which I tricked out and later gave to someone else who couldn’t afford one because all good people should be armed. I know there are other ways to get guns than through licensed dealers.

      But why should a convicted felon or someone adjudicated as mentally unstable be able to simply walk into a pawn shop or a sporting goods store like you or I who have not committed crimes and don’t represent a threat, and buy a gun to go out and commit a crime with? That would only give the antis ammunition to attack our rights more than they do now. There has to be some sense of responsibility within the gun community. If I was a dealer I sure as heck wouldn’t want to sell a gun to a convicted felon. Would you?

    3. By pushing any kind of gun control at all, makes you an anti. Why do you want the government to constantly have a part in your life. I want the government to stay the hell out of my life and fix the damn potholes in the street.
      Stores do not know if someone is or will be a criminal and either do you. They also do not know if the “crazy” is nuts or not and there is no way of determining that unless they have been reported.

      So by “fixing the NICS” YOU want to go in to a gun shop, find the weapon that tickles your fancy and then, you have to go make an appointment see a shrink and let another individual that may not like the way that you combed your hair that day or just has a bad hang over determine whether you may or may not be a danger to yourself or another person?

      Get a clue dude!

    4. @vecotr16

      You’re an idiot. I have probably spent more money and invested more time in fighting gun control than you have in your lifetime. I’m done trying to get you to see reason, and I sure as heck am not going to debate with someone who is clearly as closed minded as you are.

      You have your mind made up, so go for it. Dream about dismantling NICS. Dream about overthrowing the government. You are exactly the stereotype of what the antis paint all gun owners to be. I don’t cave in to anyone . . not them and not you.

      I’m done trying to discuss things with you like rational human beings, and I’m sure not going to debate with you ad infinitum. Good luck with your pipe dreams.

      I don’t know if you have ever served in the military, but I have in more than one enlistment. I don’t know if you’ve ever done your best to protect Americans in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and Somalia, but I have. I don’t know if you’ve been in law enforcement and tried your best to protect people from the dregs of society, but I have.

      So, I bow to your greater experience and wisdom and knowledge, because clearly you already know everything, but you know what the Buddhists say about being a full cup . . or maybe you don’t.

      Enough. You’re right. Dismantle everything and let the strong overcome the weak. Just remember . . there is always a bigger fish.

    5. Ah. So you “fought for our freedom” in the military by preventing thise evil Iraqis and Afghans from invading the US and taking over all the McDonald’s and Wal-Marts. And as a cop, you “defended the innocent” by kidnapping harmless people for victimless “crimes” and delivering them to the Just Us system. Thank you for your service! What would have become of me if the US hadn’t invaded thise countries? How would I ever survive if potheads, junkies, and pillheads (and people who sell to them) weren’t put into hellish prisons?

      The truth is that you’ve done nothing with your life but serve the ruling oligarchy, which has brainwashed you into thinking that government is the arbiter of moral legitimacy. Violence is okay if the government orders it or permits it; otherwise, it’s wrong. Is that the idea?

      Mindless order-takers and law-worshippers like yourself are the reason why tyranny has been able to flourish throughout history. Once some sicko or group of sickos attains power through subterfuge, they have legions of people at their service who are willing to do whatever they’re told. The Nazi soldiers didn’t think they were doing anything wrong when they invaded Poland; after all, their government said it was okay, and they were following orders. Tyranny has always required legions of useful idiots who are incapable of moral reasoning.

    6. Heres what we’re up against in regards to reporting mental health info to The system. In Florida a few years ago a law was finally passed that forbid Doctors from asking patients especially children if they lived in a gun household.
      It appears that most doctors are liberal and having said that, most liberals think gun owners are nuts in the first place, therefore doc’s against guns could legally have all guns removed from the public basically overnight. Furthermore, once mental health info is entered into a government data base, and with the government here to help, imagine the next regulation requiring you to have a mental health expert signing off on your next gun purchase application. Quite saying it will never happen, it will happen!
      The fact is, politicians are buying votes by trying to appease both sides pf the gun debate. but damnit,laws and regulations only restrict the law abidding. Its time to aggressively pursue the criminal. After all, how many court certified mentally
      individuals ( court certified crazy) have committed murders lately. Colorado, no, Louisiana, no? Was he treated by a mental professional? I believe the family worried about him and the police knew anout him, but he would still slip through the system today without mental health treatment.
      Look, the question is trust. Do I wish the system to identify individuals with mental illness, whole heartily an astounding yes. Do I trust the government to protect my rights and not Create a system that will destroy the second amendment. Hell no, no, way!

  17. a great way to fix the NICS system is to dismantle it. That’s right, get rid of it. Defund the whole program, scrap the software and computer systems. All in one stroke. but that’s just me.

    1. With what would the NICS be replaced in your scenario?

      If you seriously expect criminals and the mentally ill to be terrified into honesty by the threat of perjury for lying on the ATF transfer form, then you’re just as delusional those who believe that “gun free zone” signs prevent shootings.

    2. @ Adam.

      There are a few Kickstarter Programs working on a NICS App, but at the moment there limited to State Police Authorized Services and to Android Providers. Nothing on the National Level, yet

    3. I would replace NICS with nothing. I would rather see NICS in the trashcan never to be seen ever again OR make it voluntary and not enforce it at all. If someone voluntarily uses NICS then you can go somewhere else to purchase.

    1. Because we all know that criminals and insane persons can be trusted on an honor system, right? I mean, just look at how successful “gun free zone” signs have been!

    2. Are you one of those people who makes this argument while failing to realize that the NICS system is an honor system itself? Only worse, because it’s got an obvious work-around.

      Get a fake Id and sail on through… Someone who wants a gun for crime totally cares about some petty purgery BS. You can get fake IDs from China for less than $5, printed with the same materials, on the same machines. What’s NICS gonna do? NOT find any reference to that made up name and address, that’s what.

      As usual, those who support gun control are those who are detached from reality…

      What is used for that NICS call? The info on the 4473. What makes that info valid? The honor system. Duh, get a clue.

    3. @Dustin,

      I don’t think Adam’s supporting gun control, I think he’s saying that, as a responsible citizen, he doesn’t want a criminal to walk into a store and just by a gun and walk out the door. What’s wrong with that?

      And believe me, if someone has the resources and know how to get fake ID’s that actually work, then they don’t need to buy their guns from a store, they can get them through the underground.

      Dude, I don’t get your anger over this. I own more guns than I’ll admit to on-line, and most of them I bought through internet and gun show sales that involved a background check. I never got turned down, so how is this stopping me from owning guns?

    4. It stops you from owning a gun when you and your wife get into a verbal argument about who’s turn it is to take out the trash at 1am. You neighbor calls the cops cause you are keeping him awake and you go to jail for a bogus charge. when the police find out that own firearms it turns into a bogus assault with a deadly weapon and conspiracy to inflict bodily harm or death.
      You go to court and the judge laughs it right out of court. but there is nothing that will be able to unmelt your collection or take that domestic arrest off your record. Thus you are no longer able to own a firearm, you crazy and wacky guy, you.

      Its up the government to say if the last comment “you crazy and wacky guy, you” is fact or not.

    5. @Vector16 – If the judge laughs the charge out of court, there’s no conviction to show up in NICS later. Police seizing (and never returning) firearms from someone they arrest is a separate issue entirely.

    6. Its not the conviction that hurts. If you are arrested for domestic they have to seize all of your weapons, ITS THE LAW!!! That arrest goes onto your record. Then next time you get pulled over for running a stop sign, the cop asks you if you have ever been arrested, you have to say YES.

      When the government seizes firearms, the probability of them being returned are slim in none. especially over the last 6 years and depending what state you live in.

    7. @Vector16

      Look, Man, I know why you’re concerned. I don’t trust the government either, and trust me, I’ve been around enough to have had all sorts of interactions with the law from both sides, but two things make your argument moot:

      1. If there is no conviction, you do not show up on the NICS system. Period.

      2. In your scenario of the argument, if your wife doesn’t agree to press charges or tells the cops nothing happened . . end of investigation. I’ve been a Probation Officer, and believe me, it ends without a charge no matter what your neighbor says.

      So chill out and understand that this is not a bad thing. My state doesn’t have a waiting period or a limit on how many guns you can buy in a month. Be active, but do your research. I am an NRA member, and GOA member, an NAGR Front Line Defender, and an active member of my state gun rights group.

    8. NICS is a Nat’l thing. in states like CA, MI, NV etc. If the police are called to a domestic dispute, someone goes to jail. The other guy does not have to press charges and the wife can’t explain it away. The state presses charges.

    9. @ vector16

      Okay, Brother, look . . we’re both on the same side here, so please listen for a second while I try to make some sense.

      1. My wife and I have some epic arguments, and I have repaired the holes in the walls we’ve both made (she’s bad ass, trust me) but we’ve never had the cops show up because we both know when to cool it.

      2. Even if you are arrested, if your wife will not testify in court, there is no conviction. No conviction=no record=no NCIS issue. Period.

      I understand your concerns. Frankly, the government sucks. And for a long time my NCIS checks always came back delayed because of my DoD contracts in Iraq ans other places, so it would take 6+ hours for my background check to clear, but I have never been turned down. If you are not a criminal or a crazy, you have nothing to fear.

      Having said that, I do admit that Obama has tried to paint all vets as crazies because, being a coward Liberal himself, he hates the military. So we do have to continue to fight, but the most effective fights are those that fight within the system.

    10. “1. My wife and I have some epic arguments, and I have repaired the holes in the walls we’ve both made (she’s bad ass, trust me) but we’ve never had the cops show up because we both know when to cool it.”

      Wow, the fact you would post that tells me you think punches holes in walls because your angry is normal behavior, what’s wrong with you??!!! I highly urge you to get some counselling, both you and your wife with your anger issues as well as some marriage counseling. I hope like hell you don’t have kids and are exposing them to this, you really need help man, really. How many times does this happen after drinking? And you have firearms in the home? YIKES! I pray a neighbor calls the police the next time and if there are kids in the home they take them from both of you! Look inside yourself, ask yourself if that is really the kind of person you want to be? It’s long past time for some reflection and self assessment.

    11. If you have a soda can that has a hole in the bottom, do you still try to drink from it or do you throw it out and get another soda? Its simple. get the government out of our personal lives and have them fix potholes with our money. Government is too big and have too much control. If you see a area that you can get rid of, you jump on it. There are more federal laws and loopholes than anyone will ever know. Lets get rid of as many of them as possible. There is no need to have a speed limit of 3 mph on a wood plank road that gets 1.5 million dollars every year to enforce. Same thing and this BS

    12. Mikial, so what about the guy who has a misdemeanor assault in Maryland from decades back, and has been a model citizen since, honorable discharge and all? The anti-gun State of Maryland decides to pass a law RETROACTIVELY re-classifying “violent” misdemeanor convictions as felonies, and suddenly he’s in the NICS database as a prohibited person! His case went all the way to the Supreme Court, who refused to hear it. What about his 2A rights?
      The NICS system is a useful tool for keeping some people who shouldn’t have guns from buying them in stores. For the vast majority of gun customers, it is an inconvenience — unless you find yourself on the list by mistake. I remember a US Air Force general who discovered he was on the list when he tried to purchase a handgun — turned out his name was flagged when it cross-referenced another database because he was the subject of a background check for a higher security clearance!
      Until the safeguards are in place for not making one’s name on a list a life sentence for 2A rights, or until we reform our penal system so that the punishments fit the crimes, I’m not supportive of any legislation expanding background checks.

    13. @ Mikial.

      Actually, Believe it or not, it was Thomas Jefferson with the First Modifier of the 2nd Amendment. Called the Insurrection Act of 1807, essentially a copy of the British Empire Insurrection Act of 1796…

    14. So in short, @Dustin, your logic is that we shouldn’t have laws because sufficiently determined people will find ways to circumvent them. I’m not sure whether to call that a slippery slope or just a straight vertical drop into madness.

      As @Mikial has pointed out, anyone able to get a really good fake ID off the black market can just get the gun directly. The NICS system, while not perfect, is usually just a minor inconvenience for the majority of law abiding citizens and largely achieves its goal of ensuring criminals are unable to walk into a FFL’s shop and buy a firearm on their own.

    15. Don’t tell me what my logic is. when you can’t find any sound reasoning of your own. Straw Man.

      The point is not what it does to me, but that it doesn’t do at all what it claims it’s own purpose to be.

      You say the point is that you don’t want anyone to be able to just walk in and buy a gun with nothing. Well, that’s what NICS is. It’s a whole bunch of nothing that doesn’t at all prevent what you’re pretending it prevents.

      It takes absolutely no “resources” to get a fake ID from china online. You added in a fraudulent qualified. “That works” A fake ID that works. OK, what fake ID doesn’t work when you fill in your 4473?

      What color is the sky on your planet? What mystical, magical forces do you believe are at work here? Your proposition doesn’t do anything to prevent a criminal from walking in and buying a gun. Yet, you advertise that as the purpose, and are willing to lie to push it… Sounds pretty liberal/democrat to me…

    16. @Dustin: Yet DOJ studies show that only ~ 8% of criminals purchased their firearms through a FFL. In contrast, ~ 40% obtained their firearm by theft and another ~ 40% through friends or family.

      http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/40Percent.pdf

      If buying a gun from a FFL with a fake ID is so easy, why would criminals overwhelmingly prefer avenues that involve greater personal risk or involvement of a third party who could later turn them in?

    17. @ Adama, again, you deliberately manipulate qualifiers…

      I said SMART criminals. Obviously, dumb criminals have no idea how that works and can’t game it, cuz they’re dumb. Most criminals are dumb, so most, being a majority, buy them elsewhere.

      Post another link to irrelevant information. It really helps you look smart while playing your manipulation games…

      Look at the clearing rate. How many guns bough on a straw purchase actually end up netting an arrest? How many bought by those other means?

      Your deception wears thin, dirty liberal…

    18. I’m going to make a separate post of just this point, because you made it for me while trying to deny the very thing…

      40% through friends and family. So, it 1/4th of them got leaned on, that’s 10% of the total.

      Even if 100% of the guns bought from an FFL were caught, and they’re not, that’s still LESS overall.

      How many thugs and gangstas that want a gun, do you think, have ever actually filled out a 4473? Do you think they have any clue how the process works? Do they, maybe, just avoid the whole thing because they have no idea? Duh, they don’t know how to game it so they avoid it altogether. You think their friends and family hold out for them and take the rap?

      How many 4473s with totally fake info ever go anywhere? If every piece of information is useless, what lead is tracked down? Who’s door do the ATF knock on? What NICS record comes up for a name that doesn’t even exist?

      Like I said, SMART criminals would buy directly from the FFL and game NICS instead of leave a different trail elsewhere. Thius, NICS is nothing but an honor system that trusts nobody will be smart enough to get a fake ID from China. In many cases, maybe that’s true. But if I wanted to buy a gun with no trace-able records, that’s how I’d do it. Because I’m smart.

      And even more… Where do they get the 8%? How do they know how many purchases were done with fake info or not? Have they tracked down every single 4473 ever filed? This number is based on an impossible data structure and cannot be trusted.

    19. @ Adams.

      Even a “Good” Counterfeit ID will Fool an Expert. It take Years of Experience to Identify a “Good” Fake ID. I worked as a Bonded Interstate Courier, and after 19-years I could Spot a Real from a Fake that looked Virtually Alike. You need something Better than that, like Facial Recognition Software. DNA would be EVEN Better, but were nowhere near that level of Advancement Yet. And you would have to either Break or Heavily Modify current Laws to get that kind of system in place…

    20. There is a good point here. We know the few of the guns used in crime are bought from private dealers at gunshows. All FFL sails are background checked. So how to illegal gun runners get their guns? It would seem that it is done with fake IDs. Since the person on the ID doesn’t exist they don’t have a criminal or mental health record either. So the buy guns form various stores and sell them for marked up prices on the street. Others are obtained by burglary. But, the fake ID is key to most of the guns in criminal hands.

    21. If I were a smart criminal, I’d never buy a gun anywhere except from an FFL. Preferably a big retailer. I’d use a different Online Chinese ID for every one. I’d be buying them where they’re least expected to be bought, with a totally useless pile of data. Learn how datamining works, duh. That’s basically the definition of an investigation. Collect data, find correlations and mutually exclusive pieces until there’s only one possible conclusion. The only way to beat it is to send them on a wild goose chase. A made-up name and address certainly won’t be showing up in NICS. Let the datamine collect a pile of useless information.

      If you by from a private seller, nobody wants it pinned on them, they tell who they sold to any time they get leaned on. So why not defy the honor system, go straight to the source, and simply provide fake info… Derp.

    22. Well, Adam, what about the criminals who “serve” at all levels in the US government? Do you trust them?

      The US government is hopelessly corrupt and venal. It has NO regard for the Bill of Rights. And its minions are proven liars. Anyone remember James Clapper’s blatant perjury? Operation Northwoods? Iraq’s WMDs? The Gulf of Tonkin?

      Anyone who trusts the US government or wants to increase its authority in any way is an imbecile.

  18. When in the hell are the gov officials going to learn that they can’t stop violent crimes from happening by restricting the rights of law abiding citizens?
    There is nothing that the feds or local police can do to stop someone from acquiring a firearm or a hammer, axe, knife, bomb etc.. They need to put the mentally unstable into a controlled environment with dr.s. instead of putting them in prison and then releasing them into the public.

    These politicians are all a bunch of MORONS!

    1. Government officials aren’t imposing gun laws because they want to prevent violent crimes. They simply want to increase their power over the population.

      If “our” government cared about saving lives, it would worry a lot more about restricting smoking than guns. Smoking skills over 400,000 Americans every year! That’s like a nuke going off in a major US city every year! Why doesn’t Big Brother focus on that instead of BS like gun control and terrorism? (Note: I don’t approve of government regulation of smoking or ANY personal, consensual activity. People have the absolute right to do as they wish with their own health.)

    2. The reason is the same as why there is more focus on airplane crashes and car wrecks. The background check system isn’t going away no matter what its effectiveness. Modest measure to make sure the data base is as updated as it can be without changing the criteria are not a threat. Some of the executive orders that the administration is doing or reviewing are.

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