Despite Facts, California Completely Bans Lead Ammo for Hunting

.30 carbine cartridge on the left and 12-gauge ammo on the right on a light gray background

California has become the first state to enact a statewide ban on the use of lead ammunition for hunting.

After California Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 711 last year, it took four months for the California Fish and Game Commission to adopt the regulations of the bill. AB 711 created a statewide ban on hunting any game and non-game mammals and birds with lead ammunition. Studying and analyzing the effects—or lack there of—of lead ammo on wildlife has been a 30-year struggle between hunters and environmentalists.

Historical Context

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service studied the effects of lead shot exposure on waterfowl from 1983 to 1985. In those two years, evidence undoubtedly found that a large amount of diving ducks died from lead poisoning. This evidence resulted in a federal ban on the use of lead ammunition for hunting waterfowl in 1991. However, when you fully understand the research, the ban is due to the unique feeding habits and digestive system of waterfowl. The same facts cannot, and do not, correlate with upland birds such as dove, pheasant or turkey… or—as it turns out—the California condor.


The condor is the largest flying bird in the U.S. and one of the rarest birds in the world. They nearly became extinct in the 1980s. Poaching, lead poisoning and habitat destruction lead to the near-demise of the California condor. In the late 80s, only 22 birds remained. In 1987, California adopted the Condor Recovery Program and captured all 22 condors in order to save the species through a captive breeding program. The $60 million program—mostly state and federally funded—was successful and the condor was reintroduced into California and Arizona in 1992. Last year, activists counted over 435 birds.

.30 carbine cartridge on the left and 12-gauge ammo on the right on a light gray background
California has become the first state to enact a statewide ban on using lead ammo for hunting.

The condor is a scavenger and feeds on the carcasses of larger dead animals such as cows, sheep and deer. In 2006, the University of California Santa Cruz published a paper (“Ammunition is the Principal Source of Lead Accumulated by California Condors Re-Introduced to the Wild”) on the study of the California condor citing that lead ammo was killing the giant birds. The paper sparked emotion in many wildlife, environmental and animal rights groups, such as the Humane Society and the Center for Biological Diversity. A campaign to end using lead ammo for hunting in certain areas resulted in a 2007 law. Assembly Bill 821 bans the use of lead ammo for hunting deer, bear, wild pig, elk and pronghorn antelope, as well as non-game animals such as coyote and squirrels in the area established as the “Condor Zone” spanning from San Jose in the North to Los Angeles in the South. Governor Schwarzenegger signed the bill, but it wasn’t enough for the activists’ organizations.

Fact vs. Emotion

Since AB 821 has been a law, there has been no proof that lead ammo is responsible for the condors’ fatalities. Studies show that despite a 99 percent compliance of hunters, there is no evidence that condors’ lead levels have decreased. And in fact, some condors’ lead levels have slightly increased. After some digging in 2010, using the California Public Records Act, the California Rifle and Pistol Association Foundation exposed the University paper’s fallacies. The University of California Santa Cruz openly admitted to omitting essential research in the 2006 paper. And what was so strategically left out? That much of the lead poisoning was coming from lead paint chips off an old fire lookout tower. Lawrence Keane from the National Shoot Sports Foundation (NSSF) said about the findings, “…as we have said all along, that condors in California are accessing lead from other sources, not ammunition.”

Despite having no solid evidence that the condors’ lead poisoning is caused by lead ammo, California Assembly member, Anthony Rendon still drafted AB 711—a bill completely banning lead ammo for hunting anywhere in the state of California. Rendon claims using lead ammo for hunting “is the equivalent of spoon-feeding lead to our children.”

California Governor Jerry Brown signed AB 711 in October 2013, giving the Fish and Game Commission until July 1, 2015 to adopt the regulations. If basing laws on faulty facts and banning certain types of ammo wasn’t bad enough, there are larger consequences at stake.

The End of a Tradition?

Man holding a camo shotgun in the field
40% of California hunters say they will either have to stop or severely reduce their hunting.

The American Bird Conservancy, a group that supports AB 711, says, “Hunting will still be allowed in condor habitat, but only with commercially available non-lead bullets widely available for sale in California and by mail order.”

But that’s not entirely true.

Before public availability, the ATF must approve all non-lead bullets. The agency has an interest in projectiles made from materials other than lead because many non-lead bullets are made of brass—which incorporates the “legal definition” of “armor-piercing” ammunition per the ATF. Of course, petitions to the ATF to approve materials for non-lead bullets are caught up in the bureaucracy’s red tape. Further, non-lead bullets are much more expensive to make and, therefore, much more expensive to purchase than traditional lead-based bullets and shot.

The NSSF surveyed California hunters after AB 711 passed and found that nearly 40 percent said they will either have to stop or severely reduce their hunting due to the much higher costs of non-lead ammunition. In comparison, a box of Winchester .30-06 Springfield “green” lead-free jacketed hollow points retails for $29.26—nearly $1.50 a round! .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester is nearly double that. While a very good deer hunting round with a lead bullet, the .270 Winchester 130-grain Winchester Power Max is only $22.16 a box.

And “widely available?” Forget that. The Fish and Wildlife Service has an approved list of non-lead ammunition that has less than 40 manufacturers on it. Further, due to local restrictions in densely and highly populated Los Angeles, Oakland, Sacramento and San Francisco, ordering ammo by mail is nearly impossible—if not all together forbidden.

The NSSF report says the ban could lead to a loss of $20 million in revenue for the state.

The California Fish and Game Commission are implanting the law in three stages:

  1. On July 1, 2015, no lead ammo may be used to hunt in state run wildlife areas and ecological reserves.
  2. On July 1, 2016, no lead ammunition can be used when hunting with a shotgun for upland game birds, furbearing mammals, and non-game mammals and birds.
  3. A total ban on hunting with lead ammo goes into effect on July 1, 2019.

Assembly member James Gallagher has already introduced AB 395 that would repeal the ban. To support this pro-hunting bill, please visit the Firearms Policy Coalition.

What do you think about California’s ban on lead ammo for hunting? Share your thoughts with us in the comment section.


The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (316)

  1. I moved into a house with several acres on top of a mountain in the fall. The spring brought a huge surprise, California Condors. The birds came often and I really got to learn a lot from trying to understand the birds & the agencies involved. Before I learned a lot I was against the ammo ban. I lived 1/2 my life in PA and was an avid hunter. In CA if you shoot a pesky animal with a led billet you’re supposed to bury it. To many don’t and leave it or toss it in the woods. The process of treating a condor for high levels of lead is extremely painful for the birds most survive the treatment. Many that did not get their yearly blood tests died. I’ve seen them sick, starving and it’s not pretty. The agency responsible for them dropped the ball with Covid hitting which is BS too. My point is, condors do not live everywhere and they migrate also. Without ongoing human intervention they will surely die out. Condors are gone in October. Perhaps we all could try not to be part of the problem and work for a solution. I’m a nobody who’s spent a heck of a lot of time with these birds. I don’t believe it was the right thing putting them back in the wild . I also don’t think it’s fair to not be concerned about them until there’s a better solution. Like mass acreage enclosed and less in the wild. There’s not even enough food for them. Thanks

  2. “40% of California hunters say they will either have to stop or severely reduce their hunting.”
    Of course and this reveals the real reason behind the lead ban: eliminate firearms and hunting.
    there is no other conclusion one can draw for the deception in the UC Santa Cruz (a hotbed of PETA and Anti-2A thought and activism) study.

    1. Definitely try to win this war by running away.

      “Run away, run away, bravely run away,” brave Sir Robin ran away.

  3. That was one of the reasons I left; the leftards and the politicians they elect have no moral compass and the big ship is headed for the rocks.

    Oddly enough, as I was driving out to CA in 1997, I spoke with a woman in a gas station in Wyoming. The moment I mentioned CA, she went right into this rant about assholes and government ……….. while I was still all starry-eyed at the prospect of moving out there. In retrospect, I should have turned around, then.

  4. As a business owner in Ca, I am sick and tired of all the far left enviro terrorist idiotic regulations. Yes, I live in Santa Cruz where all the idiots come from. They stand on street corners and yell at invisible capitalists or starve their dog to get a free hand out and use the money to buy drugs.
    As a business owner who operates very nice housing rentals I have 11 environmental agencies, all of which have absolute idiots for staff doing everything they can to shut down my housing rentals. Than I have rent protection laws that state a pot grower is disabled so not renting to them is discrimination against the handicapped. then the feds confiscate your house if you knowingly do not throw this person out who is destroying your house + suing you for the mold they created by growing pot inside. You see some of these liberals here bashing the hunters who use the required lead bullets.
    The near end result of their insanity is: I am closing down my business and leaving the state. My rentals will be sold to home owners and no longer provide rentals for lower income people. All my employees are loosing their income that they so much need and deserve. My employees children will be joining the food lines and welfare lines lines here in Santa Cruz. Yes that is the only job in the area now: Help homeless, Help dopers, Help undocumented workers, Help the drug use created brain loss liberals who cannot work but sure can grow and smoke pot. Oh and social worker for the welfare department.
    I have had it, and I grew up here: Good by California! Good luck as your idiot enviro terrorist anti business attitude destroys your entire tax base. Who will pay when all your citizens only grow and smoke pot!

    1. I wish you could tell us how you really feel!! 😉
      I’m sorry for the position you find yourself in and hope that where ever you land will produce a better life for you. Best of luck.

    2. The liberal bullies have finally bullied me out of this state also. I feel terrible because I’m leaving behind two elderly parents along with sisters and nieces and nephews. I tried to get my parents to come with me As I am the one that takes care of them and their house I Drive 35 miles to their house every weekend to do chores for them and now I will have to hire somebody to do it as they cannot afford to. But I can no longer put up with the bull crap that the California liberal retards have forced upon us. I see my rights being taken away day by day and see non legals getting more and more rights day by day.

  5. I was just talking to a relative from California last night, and this person said that mentioning you want to buy a gun in California (L.A. Area) there is like saying you’re gonna have an abortion – people are awestruck by the comment. That’s scary to me!

  6. As a lifetime California hunter it has been pretty clear for several decades that the State has been in the business of eliminating hunting in California. From excessive hunting fees, gerrymandering hunting zones, reduced take, reduced hunting time, and now firearms ammunition restrictions.
    The will of the Citizen is, as usual, being ignored and there seems to be no end to the arrogance of the nanny state we used to call California.

  7. Well, if all is as rosy as you say it is, then why are Oathkeepers and CSPOA even bothering to build up their membership? And then there’s that pesky MIAC report:

    If you people were just a wee bit less comatose, you’d at least recognize what’s going on in the world outside of Mayberry.

  8. What would be the point. You are not one of us and therefore have no idea what we are about. And you already have your mind made up against us. Like my fellow officers, I took an oath which I still live up to, just as I continue to do with my military oath. Of course, to hear you, you don’t trust the military either even if you haven’t openly said as much. I hope that if and when the time comes you will realize that we are on the right side of the Constitution.

  9. Well, it’s too bad you still have your head in the sand. It’s quite apparent that you’re still getting your news from Sesame Street and, in particular, you aren’t even aware of the shift in loyalties of law enforcement in general, away from supporting the Constitution and toward whatever political entity will provide them all the shiny new toys.

    There are many NORMAL and loyal LEOs out there who don’t deserve the bad rap but for some reason they are either totally oblivious to what is going on or incapable of helping reign in their ethically challenged brethren. Which one are you?

    So, by all means, please dive into the conversation a bit further.

  10. BR549 – You comparing our Law Endorcement Officers to Hitler’s youth troops and followers shows your true ignorance of reality in America! Please stop posting now so you don’t further embarrass yourself. Additionally, your comments are grossly incorrect, socially inaccurate, and down right liberal-nonsense-jibber-jabber.

  11. Seems like you just violated the very same concept you complain about.

    In many ways I agree with you. I totally object to very wealthy people who use their money to push their views in states where they do not reside. I object to the USA telling another nation that they must adopt our principles if they want our support and assistance. I object to people, in or out of my state (CA) telling me how I must live while they themselves break every rule/restriction they want to place on me.

    A Condor may be a wonderful sight to see, and it may serve a purpose in nature, but some life forms were destined for extinction for one reason or another. Personally, I love sitting by a lake catching nothing when an eagle swoops down and flies off with a big trout, or fishing for salmon all day on the river and passing a river otter chowing down on a huge salmon while I go home empty handed. lol

  12. “We, on the other hand, may have only a split second to identify a danger and react.” …..

    Unfortunately, the public’s ability to trust a LEO to help, instead of making a situation worse, is waning as we speak and has been for long time. I’m not saying that it’s the LEO’s fault, necessarily, rather that it’s the fault of the system for lowering the bar of acceptability and accountability.

    If you happened to read German history, there were always that bunch of social misfits who were a little too eager to join the Brownshirt ((the Sturmabteilung or SA) movement. Of course, in the end, those same misfits became a liability to Hitler and their numbers and function had to be kept in check. This was primarily because, even from their limited “paramilitary” function, the group’s numbers had grown significantly and their quest to have more say in military matters forced the higher echelon to clip their wings, so to speak. They just wanted more power and didn’t know when to quit.

    And look where we are today. while you’re sitting back looking at the problem through your own lens, your ethically and morally challenged brethren are doing EXACTLY what the SA were doing. S.S.D.D. Put another way, without the understanding of history, the average LEO is left incapable of evaluating what course the ship he signed onto is taking. Without knowing where the ship came from, one can’t determine the direction society is headed, and without a compass, (in this case, a “moral” one) any direction toward the Constitution is nearly impossible to find among the many wrong directions.

    “The vast majority of us are out there trying to defend the good, law abiding people while being outnumbered 310 to 1. At least Custer knew who his enemies were at the Little Big Horn. The overwhelming majority of us actually support your rights and seek to defend them.” …..

    Actually, Custer was a narcissistic idiot and a fool who got his men needlessly slaughtered.

  13. The point is that California’s citizenry do not want the ban, it’s the stupid politicians who are using it to further a secret agenda aimed at ridding Americans of firearms so they cannot defend against a tyrannical government when it attacks!

    1. Don’t forget, California is also going BROKE! So please let’s listen to them :p

  14. Predation of California citizenry? Whoa there big fella! Far more of my brothers and sisters are slain by California citizenry.

    When you are charged with the tasks we face every single day, bad things can happen. Sorry about that. But, when push comes to shove, would you stand there until you are cut down, or would you make sure you go home to your family at the end of watch?

    The headlines look bad. And, honestly, a bad shoot is bad. But, the vast ,majority of citizens (our fellow Americans) have a lot of time to read the headlines and watch a situation on tv. We, on the other hand, may have only a split second to identify a danger and react.

    The vast majority of us are out there trying to defend the good, law abiding people while being outnumbered 310 to 1. At least Custer knew who his enemies were at the Little Big Horn. The overwhelming majority of us actually support your rights and seek to defend them.

    I do not make excuses for bad cops, or bad shoots. However, I do ask people to consider that the media plays everything up for the ratings and do not care about the people involved.

  15. So, since this “lead issue” is so dire, it must follow that law enforcement must also use non-leaded ammo while they continue their predation on the California citizenry.

  16. California is a Sovereign State within a union of 49 more such states combined into one Republic that has a common Bill of Rights and a Constitution; So where and the hell do GOP conservatives and especially Tes Party and Zion-Cristians from outside that states borders get off telling them how to live.
    If any states peoples legislatures do not exactly conform to cultural religious or even nationalistic fervors and fevers for war, that is their Civil Right and also is protected by the same damn Bill of Rights as those who holler the most about freedom and in turn are just as oppressive towards dissenting voices as sre any tyrants.
    If the pepple of California want to rid their rivers and and lands of lead and pay the added cost then that is their choice.
    It is not just a condor but all wildlife, including some humans, that lead in our enbironment harms..
    We are talking of a recreational nature not some fn neandrathal need to kill for protein in order to survive or need to make war at home.
    There are plent of options as to saving your eanna revolution guns ammo for future use if needed.
    Hunting is supposed to be communing with mans and earths connections, and perdonaly I have many years memories that bring smiles anf evem laughter to times not of the kill but of comrades both humam and wild.
    As a child I once saved nickles and dimes to aid in protecting birds and wildlife I would never hint snd most likely mevrt see and then as an adult paid out dollars for same causes, for me seeing an eagle and even our turkey buzzats lofting in the air is as much a thrill as seeing deer and elk in the wild.

    1. You go right ahead and run your state the way you want. No one is telling you how to live idiot but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought all you socialists were so tolerant of others. Your preoccupation with war is typical of a brainwashed socialist but again its your opinion and your entitles to it. Lastly, no one need your lecture on hunting. I doubt seriously if you have ever picked up a gun.
      Have a wonderful day.

    2. Does your spell check work? Your logic circuits need a bit of adjustment too. Your entitled to your opinion of course and it’s those of us who belive in our Constitution and BoR who are tasked to defend that Right and privlage. Right up to the point that you choose to twist it into a liberal weapon to subvert the Republic you belong too.
      Your logic comes across as if the Republic is the support mechanism for the State. That the Republics Constution and BoR is only there to serve the individual state as they see fit. If that is so then we are truly a nation divided beyond hope of unification once again. Just as the Socialist Liberall left adgenda seems to desire. The division between the Left and Right has abandoned the middle ground that was always this Nations streanth.
      Few here I’d guess will understand or agree with such a statement. That’s OK, in this charged world climate one might expect it. Those that may still hold to the foundations and precepts of this Republic will be the few Sheepdogs that remain.

  17. Condors are fitted with tracking devices, and yet, a couple (at least) have gone off the grid and are suspected to be dead of unknown causes. For all anyone knows, they have migrated far enough away from the release points and may still be alive. Condors once ranged from Canada to Mexico and from the west coast to the south east. I don’t know if any have been killed by wind generators or solar mirrors. Condors, like Buzzards, crows and the like often are killed by vehicles when they land to consume carrion on roadways. I find the likelihood of bullets, aside from those intended to kill the Condors to be a minute cause of death. There are just too many other possibilities than a Condor finding carrion out in the middle of nowhere with a chunk of lead left in the remains. But, that does not matter to the left. They do not like facts, and they don’t like studies which dispute their views.

  18. Condors hate wind energy and solar energy plants. 237 are free flying.The species’ current range includes California’s southern coastal ranges from Big Sur to Ventura County, east through the Transverse Range and the southern Sierra Nevada, with other populations in northern Baja California and in the Grand Canyon eco-region in Arizona. Essentially their natural range. Exact locations are not released as a protective measure. The most I could get is that a couple were proven to have been shot. There are some which “went missing” (how many is unclear). A couple were reported dead of natural causes including predation by other wildlife. Considering that the reintroduction was begun in the early 1990s, I would say, even with losses, the program is making pretty good headway. The closest indication of lead being a cause of death seemed to be the couple of birds which were shot.

    As for decreasing the human population, that is something I have said for a long time, although I don’t call for all Tea Party members and conservatives to be killed as many progressives say should happen. There are far too many people using up the resources of the planet. Water, trees, oil, everything is being depleted, and people are dying of hunger. Overcrowding makes it easier for pandemics to spread across the globe. I would have no problem with gangs and criminal enterprises being terminated, along with politicians, lawyers and perhaps used car salesmen. (j/k) I do believe that immigration must be halted and even reduced, and perhaps some legal immigrants, along with illegal ones should be expelled. If people do not want to become citizens, then they don’t need to be here in an immigrant status.

    1. Dave W, Thank you for the informative comment. Yes, being shot by a bullet does cause immediate “lead toxicity!” 🙂

      Your comment on decreasing populations brings to mind Margaret Thatcher’s comment that ,”Socialism only works until politicians run out of other peoples’ money.” If politicians are going to shoot people in the head or march them into gas chambers , I am sure all of us want everyone else to volunteer while we enjoy our 6,000 square foot homes with olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, private bowling alley and golf course. In other words, if you are a liberal you want to kill the Tea Party conservatives. If you are a Neo-Nazi you want to kill the Jews. If you are KKK you want to kill the blacks. good grief, what is the world coming to? Politicians will gladly kill anyone but themselves and have all the senseless wars shown that?

      The well developed countries of the world like Europe, USA and Russia have negative or very slow growth rates now. The least developed countries that have the worst poverty have high birth rates. The people there want to be sure they have live children to care for them in their old age. So they have 10 babies, 5 of whom die of childhood diseases and starvation, to get those few children to support them in old age. it is really insanity and nothing the USA and developed countries have done to educate the people of Africa about birth control has made much difference.

      I suppose we should just close our eyes to other countries self-inflicted woes. We can’t be our brothers’ keeper. Other nations hate the USA when we have tried to impose our values. So mass
      starvation , high infant mortality, high childhood mortality rates, endless civil wars between feuding tribes, etc are nature’s way to control population. It is a cruel cruel world out there.

  19. Numbers rose through captive breeding and, beginning in 1991, condors were reintroduced into the wild. The California condor is one of the world’s rarest bird species: as of October 2014 there are 425 condors living wild or in captivity.

    1. DaveW, Wow, only 425 condors living in the wild or in captivity. Do you know the number living wild and how many of them are found dead every year and due to lead poisoning. Where are they located? All over the state of California such that every square inch of the state is for their use rather than for human use? I am sure condors hate cities and freeways? I am just wondering if the California politicians really can make a rational case for banning lead bullets. Of course, ultimately it comes down to what a condor or golden eagle is “worth” to mankind. When it comes to making large windmill farms in California, the government has exempted these windmill companies from fines due to chopping up golden eagles. it is politics as usual, or more crudely,”Who you know and who you blow.” It seems to me that the decisions in California are often made by a very vocal anti-industrial, anti-capitalistic, Marxist group of environmentalist who would like to see 7.5 billion people on earth just drop death leaving most of the earth open wild spaces again. This is the UN Agenda 21, if you have not read it.

    2. DaveW, How many condors are in the wild now? Where are they predominantly located? If only in a few areas why a state wide ban on lead bullets? How many die each year and what is the cause of death? I assume the birds have tracking devices, don’t they?

  20. WHAT???????? Slaughter animals????? These idiots would rather slaughter Tea Party members followed by regular conservatives and Libertarians, religious “nuts”, Constitutionalists… well, you get the idea.

    Nature always trumps humans in their disturbed minds. They seem to forget that they too are humans. We have a major drought. We’ve faced them in the past, and will again in the future. So what do the idiots do? They plan to build a new reservoir which will take a whole valley. BUT, a small lizard that happens to live in that valley got the whole thing canceled. So, instead we run out of water, resulting in higher prices for smaller crops, etc.

  21. I just read a comment that I can’t locate that said 70% of eastern loons that die have lead poisoning and 40% of swans that die also are found to have lead poisoning. I hate the way people use percentages all the time rather than absolute numbers as well as percentages If a total of 10 loons were found dead and 7 of them had lead poisoning that is 70%. If 10 million loons are found dead and 7 million are found to have lead poisoning that is also 70%.
    Are loons decreasing in absolute numbers? Are they now on an endangered list? Same with swans let’s have some meaningful reporting so we know what the magnitude of the problem really is. If a handful of loons and swans are dying across the country and predominantly in areas where there was a lot of hunting with lead shot, than the switch to steel shot will fix the problem over time. This seems to have nothing to do with the ban on lead bullets for hunting big game. Loons and swans don’t eat carion. .

    1. @marylandmike
      The percentages that I quoted for trumpeter swans in Minnesota read a little differently than you interpreted. Here are some numbers that I hope help.

      In Minnesota, according to DNR studies that you can find on the web, 40% of our adult swans ultimately die of lead poisoning. That means that if we have 3000 swans in the state, 1200 of them will ultimately die of lead poisoning. Of course, this is for adult birds. Quite a few tiny cygnets die from predation, but once they reach adulthood, they live a long time. We have adult swans here that were banded about 25 years ago. One that age that lives near my Wisconsin property, is losing its collar, so it will be tough to track it afterwards. Of the pair that nested on my lake for years, both adults died of lead poisoning two winters ago. They had been nesting on my lake since the time that there were only 80 nesting pair in the state. There were more than 20 lead poisoning deaths in that county that year, as the birds gathered on a shallow lake with a lot of old hunting lead in it prior to migration.

      I read the article somewhere about 70% of loon fatalities, but I can’t remember which state the study was done in. A quick search found an article from New Hampshire, listing 50% of all of their loon fatalities due to lead poisoning from fishing tackle.

      Google can be your friend here. Look for the source articles, the direct result of the studies. Usually, it would be the Natural Resources departments that would commission a study like that. They need to get facts, because they just want the programs to succeed. They are hunters and sportsmen, too, for the most part.

      I see the results of lead poisoning all the time. If you don’t, maybe do a little deeper research than just using Google. Talk to your local wildlife rehabs. Ask how many cases of lead poisoning they see in raptors and waterfowl. The wildlife rehab in Roseville, MN, near my home, took in 59 trumpeters last year, 43 of which were lead poisoned. Ask how much it costs for treatment, and what their success rate is. Maybe, throw them a picture of Ben Franklin to help with the cost. They usually depend on donations.

      I switched from lead for hunting many years ago. It has been tougher to get lead out of my fishing tackle because the commercial alternatives are really expensive right now, but I am now lead free. I cast my larger jigs with a bismuth-tin alloy that is as heavy as lead. For ice fishing and panfish jigs, I now make my own tungsten lures. For a while, I made my ice fishing jigs with plumber’s solder (tin, no lead), but it was not very heavy. Then, I found a good source of slotted tungsten balls at a fly tying place, and I just solder them to jig hooks with tin solder. It works great.

      Regarding the carrion, you are right. All it takes is a small sliver of bullet fragment in a deer gut pile to kill an eagle.

      Here are some references:

  22. Sorry, but you are wrong. Failure does and shows them nothing. They just redouble their efforts and try again, while blaming the enemy (conservatives) for the failure. They complain about how the right blocked them at every turn. How racist they are. How they don’t care about the poor, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Their insanity is manifested in their repeated attempts to do the same thing over and over and always ending in failure. They should study the history of Russia. Over 70 years and Russia kept trying to create the communist utopia and failed… and Putin has begun another attempt. These people are fanatics, no less fanatical than the jihadists if Islam.

    1. Dave W, you are correct. Marxism has always destroyed entire economies and countries. The decay it causes is a slow agonizing death, with mass starvation and the political party whether National Socialistic or Communist murdering their political opponents with a shot in the back of the head or being worked to death in a slave labor camp. The USA is now a mixed economy, part capitalism, part crony capitalism, part fascism and part socialism. It is called friendly fascism here because the mass murder has not occurred. However when liberals start talking about killing millions of Tea Party conservatives or people who don’t agree with climate pseudo-science, you can see how far from freedom and a limited Constitutional Republic we have come. Our own property is no longer our property. The government owns it all. They just are kind enough to leave us a portion. Then when we die they use estate taxes and inheritance taxes to take what was already taxed while you were alive. The streams and mud puddles on our land are owned and regulated by the government as designated wet lands. Our 11 year old children can’t even sell lemonade at a stand on our front yard. they need permits, stainless steel appliances, inspections for safety and so forth. it is really sick how much freedom government has taken and now we have Obama who is a pathological liar and who passes new decrees on a daily basis. I can’t even keep up with all the scandals and new presidential orders and decrees.

  23. BillG,

    As you know, there would be no game, were it not for American Sportsman like you and me.

    I am not in favor of poisoning birds with lead or by any means.

    It is simply a matter of priorities. As I read the experience of these Vets, I am reminded of how precious our lives are and why these noble souls have risks theirs for this exceptional country.

    The dishonesty of the ruling class in California is the problem. The ultimate outcome of injustice is violence, something we all seem to know too well.

    Should the Condor be the first step toward this awful end, I would not be one to brag about saving it.

    Keep your powder dry.

    1. Does anyone know how many California condors are alive now and where most of them are? Perhaps a simple solution that the liberals could pay for with their tax dollars is slaughtering old horses or cattle and leaving the carcasses in areas where the condor would feed on them. That would be good lead-free meat. Let them fill up on that meat and they will not even want to eat the scattered deer that were wounded . the hunters I am sure would gladly agree to take the heart and lung to a landfill or bury it. That is the organ that has the lead bullet left in it. Just a thought for what it is worth.

    2. @MA, yes, I know that very well. All of the National Wildlife Refuges around here are funded just about 100% from duck stamp money. They wouldn’t exist without hunters. I know the effort that goes into rebuilding populations of eagles and swans, having volunteered to be in a kayak for many years helping to band the swans, and having gone out on thin ice and in freezing water trying to recover lead poisoned swans. Family members of mine have done much, much more of that than me. My sister, for example, has recovered many dozens of lead poisoned eagles, and hauled them to our Raptor Center. Most of this work is done by people who also love to hunt. It just breaks my heart to see some slob hunter, who spent $40K on his pickup truck and $10K on his four-wheeler, and is too fooggin cheap to spend an extra buck or two on better ammo, not caring the consequences.

      Yes, I appreciate very much what the vets did for all of us. I’m not so sure any of them got in a firefight thinking “…so we can poison the condors”, though.

      The military recognizes the better performance without lead, by the way. Maybe you have noticed that the M855 ball round that plagued us with lousy stopping power in the past has been replaced with a lead-free M855A1, with tremendously improved penetration, tumble, stopping power and performance.

      Absolutely, I understand that the ruling class is trying to take away our guns and ammo. That is something we need to fight with all that we have. But, that is not what this particular fight is about. Fighting this battle for the wrong reasons with wrong information and conspiracy theories just makes us look ignorant, and destroys our credibility. When we fight this one with ignorance, we play right into their hands, making it easier for them to make us look like idiots and helping them win the big one.

      Let US focus on and win the big one.

      You know, had we all educated ourselves and started shooting copper voluntarily, there would have been no need for this law.

    3. @BillG
      Well articulated!
      From my POV, your comment, should be placed under the heading of:
      “Thus Endith The Lesson”

  24. The heck with their condor project. They’re not even California condors. I hope every single one dies, after they completely ban all use of lead. Only then, can we start to wake these morons up. Their leftist agenda only stays afloat because of the right that is constantly fixing their mistakes and digging them out of the hole. It’s time we let them hit rock bottom. Let the whole world see how wrong they are and have been. For these people, it takes complete failure to admitt any wrong. I say, let them have it. Maybe then, they will start to hear the truth, as they will have nowhere else to turn.

  25. I understand what you are saying, and I can empathize. It took a long time for the VA to accept that my cardio-vascular breakdown could be attributed to Agent Orange. I am also borderline diabetic.

    You should know that it was not until this year that the VA extended Agent Orange coverage to the aircrews who dispensed it. Agent Orange in 55gal drums was stored on Johnson Island where it was burned. I have photos of the stains on the ground in the barrel storage area, and the personnel stationed there, depending upon the direction of the winds on burn days, were exposed. To date, those personnel are not covered by the VA. I think this also applies to Diego Garcia personnel.

    If one goes back in history, WW2 vets received a promise of lifetime free medical for themselves and their families if the made the military a career. Fifty years later, a special provision was made to give those personnel some of what had been promised (Tricare for Life). Of course, countless thousands of them had already died, just as is happening with Vietnam Vets and will happen with Gulf Vets.

    However, as all retirees have learned, those promises are still unkept. I expected them to be kept, but soon learned that I would have to pay co-pays of 20% for each visit and to pay annual deductibles. The people who praise ObamaCare are now learning about the deductibles and co-pays after being told their costs would not increase by a single nickel. When I first went to the VA, I had to complete a means document, and pay co-pays until I was awarded disability. My dependents were not entitled to VA care and we were never able to get a space A appointment at a military installation.

    I can only say that organizations such as the Disabled American Veterans, and various attorneys have helped get recognition for many who were initially denied.

    Keep fighting. It might not help you, but it may help someone else.

    Thank you for your service.

  26. JIMO You are right in that we knew of every small arm that the various anti-Viet-gov troops had, well almost as Ft. BRAGG did not know of such large numbers of Chinese captured WwIi Japaese weapons.
    Contrary to U.s. proaganda those groups armed themsrlve by purvhasing arms through Vhinrse and French Merchants, not gree from China.
    That is until US began dumping our own well used surplus WW II and Korean junk and China gave Ak and SKS to North.
    As to effectiveness in combat, in an ambush along brushy trails or roads , the ability to acquire fire superiority immediatel by full auto AR-m-16 was far suprrior even to the AK. As Ar was controllable.
    Weakest point m-14 was hillow stock btoke rather easily, even butt dtroking a mini yellow man.
    For all the complaints of loss lives never was too much investigation of ingerior officer corps and recruting men one IQ point above mental Challenged A score of under 61 was jiggered by recruiters to fill quotas for nonus.
    American warriors kill hundreds of thousands foe each and evrry american death soas top parity of small arms our current ammo( which usually breaks at cannurlure then tumbles) has no comparison of kills by any other nations main line battle rigles.
    Viet Vet of both VC and NVA contacts and relatives were in country, one as cartographer on Full routr MEKOG and other as well lets say advisor in mid to late 50’s.
    Agaim since end of Korean war more people killed by M-16 than any other long arm.
    I will not add in numbers of non combattants might po a warrior or two.
    Was a day we had citizen soldiers not mrrcenary armed forces.
    World changes but US with GOD on its’ side is now getting ready to eat its own and in order to fo so that damned nato round will further add to body count.

    1. I didn’t then, And still don’t like the idea that the United States warrior has to abide by the Geneva Convention whereas every enemy we fought so far did not have rules of engagement like we do! And yet we do not learn that we have to fight fire with fire! Isis territories are spreading faster than Nazis during World War II and evidence shows that Isis is a downright murdering organization hiding behind their religion and has to be stopped by declaring a full-scale war and terminate them. In my opinion, the U. S. with the present administration is quite wimpy and does not have a lick of common sense to annihilate the mindset of Isis!!!!! PS. I don’t usually ‘shout’ and did not mean to you fellow patriots……….. Sorry, JimO

  27. JIMO – Start at the beginning. You are jumping to conclusions and lack appropriate information.

    Stoner, who developed the M-16 platform originally designed it in 7.62/.308. The military, and I’m talking the troops in the field, had, since WW2 and Korea, begged for a lighter weight firearm and lighter weight ammo which allowed them to carry more into battle. The M-16 was offered to the military in 1964 (after the AR-15 was already being sold to the public). The Army and Marine leadership believed in solid wood and steel. The Air Force, the new kid on the block, was more futuristic thinking (they had missiles, jets, etc). The M-16 was field tested by the Air Commandos at Hurlburt Field (Eglin AFB Aux Field 9), FL. My father was an instructor there at the time. Due to the type of operations they would conduct, they adopted the M-16. The other services adopted the M-16 later. Once adopted by the Air Commandos, the M-16 was adopted by the Air Police to replace weapons like the M-2. The M-16 was an excellent weapon until it actually met with a bad environment with it’s super tight tolerances. Failures were the result. The AK-47’s advantage was that it had looser tolerances and used 30 magazines or 90 round drums loaded with the heavier round. After tolerances were lessened, the M-16 became an excellent firearms and it’s popularity today is evidence. And, for the record, the .223/5.56 will destroy concrete and will penetrate 1/4 in steel plate. I know this from personal experience in Vietnam, though you are correct about the ease of deflection. However, a solid hit is devastating.

    Three round burst evolved when it was found that troops in combat burned up ammo at a tremendous rate under stress, leading to a lot of wasted shots and overheated rifles. Three round burst was the optimum number of shots which reduced the degree of muzzle elevation, heat buildup, and wasted ammo. Thus making better marksmen in a firefight.

    One area you have partially correct. Armalite had cash flow problems and sold the rights to the M-16 to Colt Arms. Colt was having profit problems and was in a bad way. The government saved Colt by buying the M-16s by the thousands. The same is true of military contracts for aircraft, ships, etc. It’s good to be modern, but, supporting the economy is of more importance.

    The M-16 was my primary weapon in peace and in war for 21+ years, although other weapons (M-2, M-14, M-60, M-2, etc) were used as well. With pride, I can say that no base in Vietnam defended by USAF Air Police/Security Police/Safeside was ever overrun.

    Defensor Fortis

  28. Frankly, Jim, they don’t give a damn. They are out to stop hunting, ban guns, and anything else their drug altered minds can conceive that will advance their belief that they can create utopia.

  29. Wow. You think the Military chose those rifles and that ammo for those reasons? I thought the armor piercing rounds they used were designed to pierce armor. Who knew?

  30. Lead is supposed to be totally phased out by 2021 or some such.

    As for Vietnam, Californians did protest the use of lead bullets. In fact, their protests covered any bullets, even those the troops used to defend themselves. The manufacturer of Agent Orange was well aware of the carcinogenic properties of the herbicide and kept it to themselves. I am one of the many who is 100% disabled by the damn stuff. Many of my comrades returned stateside without a scratch, only to die years later. None will ever be recognized as being KIA because they didn’t die immediately from a bullet, and none will ever receive the Purple Heart for injury received in combat because the enemy didn’t spray us. Yet victims of workplace violence at Ft Hood get what troops in combat would get.

    Californians (at least people attending free colleges in California) did protest the use of herbicides. They protested anything the military did. And then they didn’t leave California. They decided to remain and destroy what had been a great state and an envy of the nation.

    1. I myself, was sprayed with Agent Orange while I was in country. This was back in 1965– 66. About seven years ago, which was a long time out of Vietnam, I developed peripheral neuropathy. The VA and private doctors said that the neuropathy will climb up my legs and be wheelchair status. Right now I cannot feel my legs from the knees down. You could drive a spike through my foot and I would not feel it. It feels like I have prosthetics from the knees on down. I fall often, cannot run with my grandkids, cannot hang onto a rock to skip over the water like I used to, cannot hold a hammer in my hand, cannot use a screwdriver, Etc.

      The thing I am pissed about is that the VA Will not connect agent Orange to my neuropathy even though I have five letters from doctors that state it is Agent Orange that caused my neuropathy. The government caused that problem and is not resolving it with any justification. They don’t even want to admit that they are wrong…….. And they certainly do not give the ‘benefit of the doubt’ to us veterans like they say they do.

  31. @Jimo This from a guy living in one of most polluted great lakes states and has very large greenies now joining with somefive other state legislators to end Canadas nuke agenda on Huron and Michigan?
    I remember when your rivers could only support lamprey eels almost all the alwives(smelt) in lakes and panfish were so wormy and heavy metaled as to be almost unable to get off bottom.
    Since Regan/Bush assault upon emvironment began EPA federal and state has had to raise allowable chemical, including radiological, limits in order to save nillions it would cost gor over 40million US that get drinking water from lakes.
    A state wjere deer wasting disease is rampant and they allow multiple kills , who eats 400 lns of meat 80lbs abg 5-7 deer?
    Guys who are still thinking and trying to live pre technology beyond real lead and nlack powder, that’s who.
    BRENNEKE lead free saboted slugs of 2/3 ounce are traveling at muzzle over 2000 fps and @100 yards over 1100 with but in my 500 only 1 3/4 drop.
    Energy is phenominal( Their specs as I have no means to test other than hearing and seeing one hit big blacktsil at 150 out of NEF single) ; At muzzle 2700 ft/lbs and 1700 @75-100 yards.
    Easily print out of non rifled full choke 500 2-3 inches at 100 and 5-6 at 150.











    1. @JimO
      There’s a lot of vets that comment on this blog and thread, Jim. We all have somewhat differing opinions and thoughts and for the most part have a fairly civil conversation!
      We really do “hear” what you have say. There’s no need to “YELL AND SHOUT” at us! Just a suggestion …

    2. Thank you for your sacrifice JIMO.

      Pete is referring to the use of CAPS generally considered yelling…

  33. Communist/progressive/Democrat California is run by a political class that are totally ignorant; and the moron voters keep voting them back into office. What else can you expect???

  34. You guys who think lead bullets are bad for the environment should start hanging out at the shipyards that built the carriers ,cruisers ,and subs in WW2. The entire Brooklyn Navy Yard/shoreline is still contaminated from all kinds of chemical spills and heavy metals.You want to dig up NYC?

  35. to DaveW ‘s comment, one is an apex predator, eating the accumulated DDT in successive meals, and DDT is accumulative. the other is a scavenger, eating lead left in the gut-piles and bodies of shooting victims. God designed them ( the condors, which are actually pretty cool ) to do that, they are programmed to do it by your creator. You may think it your RIGHT to drive 70 mph, but who in the world thinks that’s right by a primary school? For goodness sakes, it’s ONLY for HUNTING, and how many bullets do you use that way? Use all the lead ammo you want for home defense and whatever else you want, and I blast away like a MoFo with lead ammo at targets, but golly, use some sense toward the Natural world about this one small point, perhaps?

    1. California is banning sale of all lead bullets from what I understand. They are not just banning use of lead bullets for hunting. Correct me if I am wrong. The use of lead bullets will be nearly impossible to control since they are owned already by millions of California citizens and can be purchased out of state. . Unless they hired a heck of a lot of Game Wardens there is no way they will catch more than a handful of hunters using lead bullets. Any hunter could just keep 3 rounds of lead-free bullets loaded in his rifle magazine and say they are the rounds he uses for hunting, while having another magazine in his pocket that contains lead bullets. It is the idea of a state wide ban on the sale of all lead bullets that is unConstitutional and scary. Target shooters use lead bullets at shooting ranges because they are cheap. The lead at the range is recycled. Lead bullets don’t damage valuable firearms’ rifling. Will these lead bullets for target shooting be banned also? Any substitute for lead bullets has to be shown they don’t damage firearms, they kill humanely and as well as expanding lead bullets ( Wounding more wild deer is hardly an unintended consequence anyone wants.) , they have the same or better ballistic properties as lead, they don’t pierce body armor more easily than lead bullets, and they don’t have some other toxic material in them that will hurts vultures, eagles and Condors

      isn’t is funny liberals are worried about a few dead birds, but when the US military used 50,000 bullet to kill each Viet Cong in Viet Nam and sprayed Agent Orange all over the country, no one cared about the enormous environmental effects on Viet Nam that will be felt for a long long time. Same concerns exist for the Iraqii Wars and Afgansistan where depleted uranium bullets were used. I suggest we fight all wars with spit balls from now on. Maybe the ISIS terrorists will agree to using them too! HAH HAH.

  36. OK. So, two different specie were exposed to the same bad elements (DDT and lead) used in the breeding areas of both and their food sources)… and, with DDT eliminated in both, and a lot of hard work by environmentalists, one makes a miraculous recovery even though lead is still being used in it’s environment, while the other is failing under the same conditions? Something does not compute.

  37. You know the country is in deep sh-t when someone like hillary clinton is running for pres. Libs complain about Rubio taking his shirt off in h,s..Yet I remember a young JFK shirtless in P>T 109..Most hunters are quite responsible and understand the environment.Its the overeducated city people obsessed with socialist-communist ‘philosophy” who could not run a candy stand who think they have the answers when it comes to the environment and employment.

  38. That “eggshell” study has been PROVEN to be TOTALLY bogus!!!! But the liberal whacos and the press scared the hell out of everybody about DDT to the point people equate it with nuclear waste! That study was a TOTAL sham!

    1. Sorry, but you are incorrect. Perhaps you would share your facts and sources with us.

  39. All well and good, but, do you not think that tactics used by the lefties are directly impacting the individual right to keep and bear?

    Yes, lead is bad for the environment, however, when a ban such as this springs from agents of the anti-gun movement, and are not spread equally across all sectors, I see it as directly impacting my right to keep and bear. In this case, following directly upon the heels of a very similar move by the BATF to ban ammunition commonly used, I find it particularly suspicious. If we allow the government to arbitrarily ban classes of ammunition under the guise of doing good, we may find this tactic expanded until all ammunition is banned, thereby making the use of firearms moot.

    Our Founders, long ago, charged us to be wary of our own government. For that reason, they included the provision to make sure every citizen possessed the means to defend themselves, their communities, and their nation.

    As our president has clearly evidenced, the left is not above violating our rights in the name of doing good; not just regarding firearms, but in all aspects including religious, free speech, and more, in the name of doing good for all. In doing that good, they trample on the rights of others and discriminate against them.

    The old adage of “give them an inch and they will take a mile” is in play. We do not seek to take their right of choice to keep and bear or not from them, but they do openly aspire to take that right from us.

    1. If lead it isn’t used for slugs and if they find another substitute that might be lighter than lead like a solid copper bullet that expands, also there will probably not be as many clean kills and more wounded animals running around, suffering and slowly dying.

      I wonder if these anti-gun ”Green” idiots ever thought about that problem.?

      Jim from Michigan but born in California.

    2. If lead it isn’t used for slugs and if they find another substitute that might be lighter than lead like a solid copper bullet that expands, also there will probably not be as many clean kills and more wounded animals running around, suffering and slowly dying. …………………………

      I wonder if these anti-gun ”Green” idiots ever thought about that problem.?

      Jim from Michigan but born in California.

  40. And a lot of them live in Humboldt Co and study “agriculture/forestry” at Humboldt State. But, I totally agree with you. It would be a great state again if we got rid of all the people who have not been here for at least 3 generations.

    Most of our politicos take the same oath to uphold the Constitutions of the USA and the state, yet do not remember the words 5 minutes after the say them.

  41. The California Condor is native to California, not Peru. In order to aid in bringing back the California Condor, Peruvian Condors were used to expand the breeding population and genetic pool along with captured. California Condors or harvested eggs.

    They have actually done a good job of breeding, but have a hard time with survival once released into the wild. Some of the reason is people shooting them with lead bullets. More are lost for reasons unknown.

  42. Guns are NOT evil. PEOPLE are evil. If guns did not exist, they would use swords, spears, rocks, clubs, etc. FBI stats show that far more people are killed by blunt instruments, including hands and feet, than by guns.

  43. IIRC, CA classified pellet guns the same as firearms even though the projectile isn’t propelled by gas pressure resulting from explosive gas pressure.

  44. In anticipation of this ridiculous law being enforced I recently ordered some approved by California lead free ammo. The following are all same caliber and weight of bullet. Shopping multiple web site for the cheapest and available this what I found. Barnes $57.98 per box of 20, Nosler E-tip $71.29 per 20, as compared to Remington core-lock at $22.95 per 20. Plus one needs to add shipping on top of that. What I’ve come to realize is Non lead is not very common, many sites list it, but it’s on backorder, out of stock or special order. Cost may be prohibited for some so will state subsidized the low income hunter with a a EBT card, I think not. Now the other issue. California Democrats have been trying to outlaw mail order ammo for many years, if it was not for a court case it would already be so. They made another attempt at the close of the last legislation year. Many local government bodies in California have already prohibited mail order ammo. So this leaves the local gun store as one’s only source, well maybe not as very same government body’s are forcing local shops out of business or to move as they have been targeted undesirable within their boarders. Many shops I checked have no plans to carry non-lead ammo, may special order only due to low volume sales and high cost. The very same Barnes ammo at a local shop that would special order it for me, $67.99 plus tax. So what do I recommend, start hunting Condors with lead ammo as it will be cheaper and take care of the item that started the problem all at the same time.

  45. Oh my yet another hugger that has seen the agony of a condor dying from lead poisoning. With so many witnesses I assume there is a video or a published article describing their methods. Can you please direct me there?

    1. FrankMX, if you are truly interested, I can give you video after video after video and photo after photo of swans and eagles with lead poisoning, and that is just from my family’s efforts. Of course, if you were really interested, you could just consult google for “lead poisoning in eagles” or “lead poisoning in swans” or “lead poisoning in loons”. Google knows.

    2. Loons are primarily fish eaters, not bottom feeders as are the ducks and geese for example. Thus, no kind of bullet or lead shot has been identified as the agent for Loon mortality.

      There have been documented cases of fishing tackle being ingested by the odd loon. Still not a condor, not a lead, bullet and not in CA.

    3. @MA, I agree that lead poisoning in loons is not from shooting sports. It is from fishing. But it is not just the “odd loon”. It is a serious issue. Here’s something to read.
      I’ve read studies from one of the eastern states that determined that 70% of their loon mortality was from lead fishing tackle.
      I only brought it up because people were not tuned in to lead poisoning in our wildlife. As I mentioned before, here in MN, 40% of trumpeter swan mortality is due to lead. They are not counting ducks and geese.

      I’d think that sportsmen would be interested in increasing numbers of these birds.

  46. Eventually North Korea will get the technology to threaten the west coast with a nuclear tipped missile.Then the Woodstock,SDS generation will pull their collective heads out of their butts and realize that the rest of the world does not give a crap about their sensitive issues and their phoney “president”.Yes-I am 65 years old .Now excuse me while I go for a ride on my motorcycle before the idiots ban having fun.

  47. Neither can you nor I make a lead bullet that stays together in a 5.56 round. Using a bullet swage and a .22 LR casing, I can make a crappy bullet, not suitable for hunting. But, I can buy a bunch of Barnes TSX to roll my own loads with.

    Switching to steel for waterfowl did nothing to hurt the availability of ammo. It was harder to reload for a few years, but no problems now. I can’t make my own steel shot, either, and I doubt that you can. Nor, could either of us easily make lead shot that was worth a darn. That hasn’t slowed anything down.

    This won’t change availability over the long haul. Maybe short term, but not long haul.

    Maybe our difference is that you have not personally seen an eagle, swan or loon dying from lead. If you had, you would be agreeing with me.

    As I said, there certainly are attempts to take our ammo, such as their attempted green-tip grab. Those are the battles we ned to fight with all of our might. Not this one.

  48. I don’t think the real issue is the cost, or the hunting restriction. We have to look at the periphery of the bill. Always look at the outlying issues. In this case, it’s the government’s, rather the ATF’s, classification of the ammunition that hunters will be restricted to, which we must pay attention to. It won’t matter how much the ammo costs of its illegal to own or purchase it. Always look at the underlying agenda! There, you will find the true motivations for what’s being done.

  49. Whiile store bought solid copper ammo is more expensive the bullets for reloading are barely more in cost over lead filled projectiles and they are effecient game killers.
    Careful as Berger copper are lead encased .
    The South African non -lead imported rounds and bullets are very expensive and their hunter specific rounds arr good to over 600 yards with
    double expansion.
    In 7mm mag store bought box of Barnes 150 gr for big milrs to blacktails of Wa and the 160 HP knock elk or moose dpwn quite well.
    Barnes makes copper varmit rounds as well.
    $40-50 for 160 grain at cabellss or sportsmsn warehouse.
    Reload using Bsrnes still less than many of other brands cheapest per box.
    160 GRAIN out of Savage bolt, scoped, Under 2″
    at 300 yards, and will ring 20″ gong at 600 if
    I fell well that day.
    This woe is me has got to end and we must stop having school girl/boy sissy tissy fits every time a minor change is proposed that does not directly impact our privelege to carry or own firearms.
    I guided two many years to be lied too as to the
    nobility of hunters being stewards of wildlife or environment.
    The ammo firms within US have spent millions of R&D $’s trying get ahead of restrictive legislators, and today they have rounds that allow hunters the same hunting ecperiences of padt just as thry havr done with steel projectiles in shotguns.

  50. While all for conservation and sensible game preservation, giving in to laws such as these which are based NOT on concern for the condor but only on an obvious anti-gun agenda will only serve to further weaken our country. People will say that’s a stretch but the 2nd amendment is a cornerstone of our freedom, it supports and protects ALL the others and it’s not about hunting BUT it can be incremantily chipped away at through hunting and shooting regulations such as these. Remember, it’s never really about hunting or a specific bird or animal. Why is the research always doctored and ignored anyway. Why hire “expert” into the Fish and Game programs and then not listen to them. But then what do I know, after all I do not have a Harvard degree nor am I a lawyer. However, I’m still capable of thinking, are you???

  51. I live with the condors, and they’re pretty amazing creatures. I shoot plenty and let my friends hunt my land, and they use ‘safe’ ammo to get their deer with NO problem. It’s a small price to pay and if we as responsible gun owners don’t start to make reasonable accommodations we will face more and more problems from people who perceive gun owners and hunters as ‘gun nuts’. Make reasonable accommodations folks, please. And the condors will eat small game too, right on down to rabbits and squirrels, they’re natures way of cleaning stuff up. Sure, YOU would pull the bullets from the carcass, but we all know folks who don’t, and laws are made to keep the fools in check. Take a deep breath folks, it’s a reasonable accommodation.

    1. Missing the point and ignoring history.

      The condors were never poisoned by lead ammunition, and giving a little over time is how a dripping water goes through a rock.

      Ask the Australians how this worked out for them.

      Reasonable is a relative term, the Second Amendment is crystal clear in word and intent. Every infringement on individual rights should sound the alarm to the weary.

      Lead-free bullets are not about condors or the environment, they are about the inevitable total ban of personal firearms, of any kind, for any reason.

      If you let fools run your business, you will be without.

  52. Stupid people do stupid things. Let these ignorant people STAY near the LEFT Coast. Everywhere they infiltrate (Arizona, Colorado), they try to make their new place another California! Didn’t they learn anything the first time? Don’t you remember why you left there?

  53. Thank you! It’s a flying rat! Send it packing and stop spending so much money creating legisation that removes citizens’ rights in order to protect an alien scavenging bird that doesn’t belong here in the first place!

  54. Just another way to reduce firearms ownership, where the granola state (Almost no one there except fruits & nuts) goes, eventually so goes the country.

  55. Lead ammo is banned as it hurts no one, and the toxic Koolaid these people are drinking flows freely through the water supply evidently.

  56. It amazes me that ANY free man or woman STILL lives in the People’s Democrat Republic of California. Those who through life’s constraints have no choice but to remain there have my honest pity. I pray they can soon escape to one of the remaining Free Zones in America.

    1. @ Bobby Ironsmith

      Bobby, I often feel the same way; that the good folks of Kommiefornia should vote with their feet. Who doesn’t feel that way? That freedom and ability to leave one State for another and remain an American sets us apart from the rest of the world’s dictatorships. It worries me every time I hear my friends (especially my republican thinking friends) say, “I don’t vote anymore because it doesn’t do any good. The elections are rigged.” That may be true, but at least it’s a vote, counted or not. The alternative is to bow down and lick the boots that feed you. If we simply hand over California to the Commies, eventually the next State will fall, and the next. General Washington was outnumbered 3:1. Freedom is not free. Despots have and will always exist. We must NEVER stop fighting despots.

  57. Why am i not suprised?? However, with the usual eastward flow of complete stupidity such as this thank you for the heads up. Hopefully logical and less BIASED/agenda driven personel can nip this before it spreads

  58. The criminals will continue to buy guns from people like Leland Yin Yee, a former Democratic California State Senator for District 8, and a rabid anti-gun proponent who was arrested for trafficking in illegal arms sales.

  59. Just like the Spotted Owl was on the verge of extinction, and after they killed off the logging industry which planted new trees for every one they cut, and after major fires they planted even more trees, they discovered that the Spotted Owl was doing just fine in the areas they said the owl could not survive. Thus, a goodly share of the north state economy was wiped out (including my father’s communications business, and his employees were put out of work in an area when employment was already a hard road.

  60. How much did that custom made hunting rifle cost? worth every penny? the hunting permit, the heavy duty pick up to get there and haul the kill? How many rounds do you really shoot to take down game? The cost of a bullet compared to the cost of killing off a species (and those of you who don’t believe this is true…. what if your wrong) Taking care of our wildlife and managing it is why there are fees involved when hunting, now the other aspect of that responsibility is at the door. Bow gracefully and remember what we do now impacts generations to come. I remember when folks said when gas hit over 2 dollars a gallon they said they wouldn’t buy it, we did and life goes on. We will still live our lives the way we always have but smarter and more efficiently.

    1. “what we do now impacts generations to come”

      The very roots of the Second Amendment.

      Please surrender your lead, your weapon, your freedom, personally and privately.

      I will be here holding the torch of freedom in one hand and a pistol, full of lead bullets, in the other.

    2. You are talking apples and oranges here, your not asked to give up anything. It is just another rule of hunting like times of year or how many you can bag, all designed to keep the animal population healthy and numbers maintained. Keep your lead for defense of home and family, the way society is declining, I advocate stocking up as much as you can. I agree that some of the legislation is a slippery slope but this is not that.

    1. I am I,
      and notadefunct
      Buffalo Bill who,
      Pigeons of clay with lead bullets.
      and Ginsberg would of “Howl”ed
      In e.e.cummins gardens of color.
      I am I,
      Not as others say,
      I Am or should be,
      I will not become
      one of the “We”.

  61. Any half assed competent open water duck hunter does not need lead.shot to hit and kill upland birds, wind driven doves or brushland woodcock.
    Hunters want thst pne projectile to hit anywhere in an 24″ sq that will drop em rihht now, Why they spend so much money and time trying to get the perfect sub 1″projectile and rifle and then aim for mass is a bit odd.
    Hell shoot em in head ?tsxidermidt today fix em up, or the neck.
    A guy up here in Wa. State began cranking out copper projectiled that soon had taken every known animal in Africa and US, this was over 20 years ago.
    All across nation we now have lots of indoor and growing in number outdoor ranges that are either fully coated or no lead rounds, even to
    using new improved primers indoors.
    No need to worry about lead in Cali Oregon Wa B.C. On through Idaho and Utah as.Fukushima ‘ permanent death dealings continues to pays its ongoing visit.
    The health f Pacific coastal residents was deliberately put in jeprody by collusionds of military olitical and economic interest.
    Ya see, pretending to be patriots and thinking your fn guns would save.this nation did mot work out to well.
    game in cascades is not bpoming it is in masdive decline eith elk loosing hoofs and horns to rot along with wasting disease.
    It now is private game ranvhing asyou buy all your tags and pay timber companies 250 $ for 90 days pass.
    Hell a people that do not mind killing generations of Arabs and Balkans along with Afghanistani and Pakistani poor non combattants with depleted uranium why worry about US and Japan illegal weapons and now ee gey to eat dlerp and breathe what.we.gly our flag for.
    I’ll take copper or heck jelly rounds in futueas I can watch millions of eildlife disapear.
    Sorty hard to get excited when ones decendents pay for americans stupidity.

    1. None of what you have said is relevant to the simple fact that the goal is for man to bring peace on earth for man is his own God. To do that you poor uneducated must be brought to the fact the guns are evil.
      The water is running out anyway so sell your possessions and leave the nuts have the whole place so they can show how get they can do running it all. What keeps you in such a place that is subjugating the citizenry? Good weather?

  62. Purposely using false data, leaving facts out to set public policy should be subject to criminal prosecution in setting public policy. This is becoming more the norm today than the exception.

    Politicians should be brought to trial on deception of the public.

  63. If you do a little research you will find that the “California Condor” was introduced from Peru. That’s right… it’s a Peruvian Condor, and it has no place in California. If the condor population is depleted for any reason it would not matter. We have plenty of vultures in Sacramento.

  64. LoL. The California Liberals will probably find a way to make Yellowstone erupt and the Mississippi Fault Line to go first so they can destroy any hope of true Americans fighting back!

  65. Exactly! It’s a back door work around to ban firearms and disarm Americans. It’s the only way Manchurian Candidates like Obama can appease the communist and dictator-lead governments they want to serve America up to.

  66. It’s a shame. I’m from Northern California (Mendocino, Humboldt) and I can’t see myself staying in this state where I was raised. The people that keep on stepping on our freedom are trying to drive the last good traditional Americans out of California. And most of them that are coming up with this unconstitutional nonsense are not even from California!

  67. H;mmm. Non-game mammals. Does that mean that ammo with lead bullets is illegal when killing humans? They are a “non- game” mammal. I just being sarcastic. Think the poachers will obey this? Think any other “bad guys or gals” will obey this? If you do, I have a English Bridge in Arizona to sell you. It’s called the London Bridge.

  68. Laws Based on Lies …. I will not ABIDE to that simple … people need to get some balls and do the same .. cowards get what they get ..screwed … Together we stand against laws based on lies passed by a bunch of truly stupid people
    civil disobedience on these lies

  69. Why do liberals always make crap up to try to get what they want? Why would any politician continue to support a bill they proposed, which was based on data that was falsified or omitted from a study? Stupid! The ATF being able to limit non-lead ammo, because it falls into the armor-piercing category, makes perfect sense out of the reasons why liberal politicians would want to pass this bill.

  70. First, I bet that lead paint riddled fire tower has not been touched , second , how do they rule out all other potential sources of lead that can be airborne coming from who knows what industrial plant in Asia . This is just another part of the anti gun crowd looking to hang anything they can on the shooting sports industry. The condors were probably dying back in the 80’s because of all the automotive fumes coming out of the I 5 corridor.who are they going to blame when the Fukishema Diachi radiation shows up in west coast aquifers ? Are they going to blame that on us too ? I am so glad I do not live in California , I spent some time in CA when I was in the U.S.M.C. 45 yrs ago and it use to be a nice place back then , not so much anymore.

    1. Agreed! I love San Diego and so want to live there for the climate, but I absolutely hate the laws in California.

  71. This is just another attempt by California Liberals to regulate the use of guns. No ammo, no use of guns… except for criminals, they will get illegal guns and ammo all they want until jailed… very sick situation, so I will not live in California. Ever.

    1. In the Viet Nam War the US soldiers fired 55,000 rounds of ammunition for every Viet Cong they killed. They also dropped a lot of Agent Orange. Do you really think liberals care about the amount of lead and toxins in the environment? Viet Nam was LBJ’s (Democrat) war.

      In the Iraqi Wars US soldiers fired a lot of bullets that were made from spent uranium. Do you think they care about the environment?

      I don’t know the total number of bullets the USA fired in all three wars, but i dare say the number of lead bullets use by hunters in California is insignificant in comparison.

  72. Whats all this excitement about climate change? Dont the folks know that one huge volcanic blast can put more stuff into the atmosphere than all of the last 300 years.Maybe the morons want to outlaw eruptions?

    1. Your are correct! Mother nature controls our climate, not humans. But liberal politicians use any data available and twist it (lie) to get laws passed that hurt out economy and line their pockets with cash! Our weather records do not go back 40 Million years, so we really don’t know what the big weather patterns are for our brief human time.

  73. Hey Maryland-you are right! Just think of the “new” relations obama has stoked up-Iran,Cuba-states where gun ownership is illegal.Of course the socialist-progressives fear armed populations we have the physical power,now all we need is the will power.Just the our Founding Fathers had against a past tyrannical regime.The morons elected an enemy of the state.

  74. This is all parts of obama’s plan to disarm America.
    In CA you now have to use, all copper, steel, bronze, nickel, etc.
    All which will be considered “cop killer” and will all come under future bans as well.

    1. Oh of course not! Depleted Uranium won’t hurt condors! Right? Besides, we gotta get rid of that Uranium, Right? California is a joke. BAD very bad JOKE.

    2. My last comment illustrates how liberals use double talk – ALL THE TIME. Liberals (and idiots) speak this way, in front of many millions of people. The intelligent people hear it, but the idiots miss it and just cheer the “liberal” candidate… without really listening and knowing what was just said… anybody else seen or heard this? It’s on TV every day.

  75. Because California has no other problems to deal with, a lot of good this law will do when no one lives there in 5 years.

  76. I am totally confused here. So one cannot hunt in CA anymore using lead core rounds. Thus implying that you must now use steel core rounds to sport with. The same people who backed this law are also the ones who want steel core rounds removed ie XM855 issue because steel core to them is “armor piercing”.

    1. Clayton…welcome to California. That’s the way the Democrats operate around here. Mostly because they just don’t care for anything firearms related and want to see it all banned.

  77. Time for that big earthquake we’ve heard about for decades! New coastal properties in Nevada and Arizona! If we could just insure that the state legislature is in session and Pelosi and company are home at the time….

  78. The “ban” is based on FLAWED STUDIES and is therefore BOGUS. The only reason this ban went into effect is because the FLAKES of KALIFORNIA are running the store.

    What we need is a good earthquake!

  79. And anti-gunners whine about the clout of the NRA. In a nation of approximately 310 million legal residents, only about 5 million belong to the NRA which is funded by member dues. They don’t sell firearms or ammo as the Bloombergers claim. So how is it that the Bloombergers give them so much credit for clout.

    And, if the politicians were not morally bankrupt, their votes could not be bought. (Hear that Mr Ye?)

    1. The reasons the NRA has such clout is because they expose anti-2nd Amendment politicians. There are about 100 million estimated gun owners in the USA. When they get angry, liberal-progressive politicians intent on disarming them ,mobilize and the politicians don’t get re-elected. It is pretty safe to say that in most states coming out against the 2nd Amendment and the NRA is a death sentence as far as your political career. Even liberal voters fear a dictatorship with the people disarmed.

  80. Yes, there is greed involved. But, what is so much worse is that these people are truly devoted disciples of the progressive agenda. cause.They are just as filled with conviction as a jihadist who would blow himself up to advance the cause, and you can not convince them they are on the wrong path.

    You can kill a man with a gun, but it’s near impossible to kill an idea, which is why, following revolutions, the intelligencia is routinely executed.

  81. The fascists do not care about the facts. They only care about advancing the progressive Marxist agenda born out of a drug induced state during the 1960s. The still follow the mantra of “if we put down our arms, everyone else will put down theirs”, and if they can’t have that, they still believe “better red than dead”.

  82. Someone commented that he did not understand why hunters and shooters just don’t reload their own ammunition for 25% of the cost. The cost of the reloading equipment can run several hundred dollars, Then you need to polish old brass cases so you need a stone tumbler/polisher. The black powder, primer and bullets are also expensive. If you buy new brass you can easily spend 50% of the cost for manufactured ammunition and have to use up your time doing the case polishing, primer pocket cleaning, case resizing, and actual reloading. Reloaded ammo if excellent component are used and you are very precise in how you do the reloading are more accurate than manufactured bullets, in general. That is why long distance target shooters almost always reload their own ammunition. In some cases the government may not ban reloading components like lead bullets just because they assume that is such a tiny part of the ammunition market it is not worth regulating.

    1. To the person who doesn’t understand why I don’t reload all my own ammo: Please provide me witth a reliable source for powder, primers, brass and reasonably priced non-lead bullets that I can access without paying exorbitant haz-mat shipping fees or incurring lengthly backorder waits. No?….I thought so.

  83. They must be laughing their asses off in Moscow,Havana,Caracas,Teheran,Peking ,and any other crap nation who hates us.But man they LOVE barack chamberland Obama! The junk we concern ourselves with while they plot and plan to destroy this country.

  84. Condor have BEEN extinct since the ’80s. Any bird you have to feed in the wild and give medical checks every two weeks is -EXTINCT.

    The lead ban is without scientific or other evidence. It was pushed by the Barnes Bullet company as a way of cashing in on the greenie’s campaign of terror. There is currently a bill in our legislature that lets the State pay the difference in price of ammo to each buyer. I don’t think that’ s going to fly.

    If they do it here, then they can do it in YOUR state.

  85. Yet the biggest anti-gunner in the nation, the author of the 1994 “Assault Weapons Ban”, the woman who said, “no veteran should be allowed to own a weapon because they are all mentally ill with PTSD”, Sen Diane Feinstein is a CCW and firearms packing witch.

  86. Much as I like the idea, the idiots don’t care. We’re in a depression and Moonbeam wants a bullet train built in China so he can make quicker trips between the Governor’s Office and Hollyweird. If there’s not enough revenue to cover expense, raise the taxes on everything. Years ago, we passed Prop 13 because people were losing homes because taxes got bigger than mortgage payments. Today, the lefties are pushing to repeal Prop 13 which reigned in tax increases.

  87. You and others should read “Cold Sun” by John L. Casey.
    Climate change has been a perplexing problem for years. In Cold Sun, author John L. Casey, a former White House national space policy advisor, N.A.S.A. headquarters consultant, and space shuttle engineer tells the truth about ominous changes taking place in the climate and the Sun. Casey’s research into the Sun’s activity, which began four years ago, resulted in discovery of a solar cycle that is now reversing from its global warming phase to that of dangerous global cooling for the next thirty years or more. This new cold climate will dramatically impact the world’s citizens. In Cold Sun, he provides evidence of the following: • The end of global warming • The beginning of a “solar hibernation,” a historic reduction in the energy output of the Sun • A long-term drop in the Earth’s temperatures • The start of the next climate change to decades of dangerously cold weather • The high probability of record earthquakes and volcanic eruptions A sobering look at the Earth’s future, Cold Sun predicts worldwide, crop-destroying cold; food shortages and riots in the United States and abroad; significant global loss of life; and social, political, and economic upheaval.

    1. That is a load if I ever heard one. In the 2nd sentence you note this idiot did a 4 year study of the sun. Well, solar cycles run at a minimum for 11 years and the sunspot cycle is a major factor in the sun’s existence. To claim this “study” has any real basis in fact is simply ludicrous. The fact this moron works/ed in the White House says more than any experience listed. In essence he has no credentials related to the field he claimed to “study.” He is more in line with the Algores of the world who lie and make ignorant claims that the sky is falling. So far all of these precipitous claims have ended up being the “toilet paper” of these called scientific world, i.e., so much crap!

    2. I disagree with your assessment. This guy makes far more sense to me than Al Gore. The planet went through hot and cold spells long before any humans walked it. Since the sun is the driving force for the climate and weather patterns, and nobody was around to record all the individual cycles of the sun (scientific records of weather didn’t begin until the 1700s IIRC. So we only have a couple hundred years of records. What we have before that is writings like, ‘the summer was much hotter this year and the crops withered in the fields’. We have no idea how many unknown cycles the sun may have which last 10,000 years or whatever. The climate is forever changing. The present drought in CA happened in the 1970s as well. Lake levels fell so low that sunken boats, stolen cars, and skeletons of people who went missing and were presumed drowned were revealed. It was then that they discovered that Lake Shasta had landlocke3d Sturgeon in the 300-600 pound range (even a front page photo of a guy using a 4×4 to drag one out of the water. In the geologic record, there were periods when the two major rivers in CA were totally dry. If you’d rather believe Al Gore, by all means do so. I do not. I do believe that the climate is changing, but I believe it has happened before, that it is natural, and that humans contribute far less than Gore would have us believe.

    3. That book was such a joke, I actually used it to convince most of my classmates about the idiocy of environmentalism. The only ones I could not convince were the activists, i.e. the ones already on special interest payrolls.

    4. What ^^^ these guys said. 😉 When divide and conquer tactics fail, you can always just try to scare the fire out of them. Such fools, we live amongst…

      (I will say, whatever the cause of the cyclical climate patterns that date back before the age of man, there is not one thing we can do about it. Hubris leads the fool who believes otherwise. The only manner which man can effect weather is on a very local scale, such as seeding clouds. Some politicians and scientists just can accept the facts, which only serve to show how out of control we all really are. Enjoy life and allow others to do the same.)

  88. Lots of comments but still the liberals keep getting elected. Do your job and stop them or else we will be back to legaly throwing rocks.

    1. I’ll say it again Frank. What is happening in this country and to our Constitution is what WE have allowed to happen. Every damn politician in this country works for us but they push their own agenda, convince a bunch of uninformed sheep to follow along and we bitch and post comments. Yep the progressives are destroying the country but WE let it continue.

    2. Yes your right. Then its time to change the the progressives minds. Obviously they have no concept of the money generated by sportsmen. I myself nolonger hunt or fish in California for that reason.

  89. “Socialism is the philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery”-Winston Churchill.One of Obamas first acts was to remove Churchills bust from the White House.

  90. stop worrying about ammo in california the state will dry up in a couple of years and just go away with all those idiots

  91. The Great California Drought:

    Nature’s way of telling Californians what happens when they keep reelecting idiots.

  92. The actual facts PROVE there is no global warming unless the data is totally twisted! It is all based on fantasy “predictions”.

    1. Again, normally I wouldn’t go off-topic, but your comments are so intriguing that I had to ask. Where did you get your facts that there is no global warming?

    2. Shoot Steve I can prove there is no global warming were it in my power. Just take away all the grant money used to “research” and support global warming. I’ll wager global warming would go away in a few days.
      Actually I suspect that human existence does affect environment to a small degree but it is not the BS gloom and doom the leftists try to sell.

    3. Forget about going “off topic”, you clearly are a liberal, and need to go “off comment!”

  93. if you want something screwed up leave it to some nuts in california to do it all you have to do is look at nancy p Arnold s and mr brown

    1. Well John here’s the problem.. As a former state EPA employee I can tell you that every state in the union looks to California for guidance when writing / updating or changing laws.

  94. lead ammo…………..give me a break…………..countless condors, eagles and other birds of prey are chewed up every year by california wind mills yet the tree huggers look the other way

    1. Don’t forget the massive solar project in the desert that incinerates birds who fly over during daylight hours.

  95. If they can ban just 1 thing they won’t stop until they ban them all. Get ready Obama ain’t done yet and Chilary is coming with her mouth watering like a rabid dog. Write your congress people letter after letter. Clog the government up so they have to do what We the people want…

  96. What is really frustrating about all this is the complete disregard the democrap liberal’s have for the facts. I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Dem. Susan Bonilla about this subject and she agreed to look into it and follow up. Did she? Nope, voted right down the line with the rest of the demo-gods, and now she’s runnin for the senate. God help us all !!!!!

  97. Manufactures like Gateway Bullets use a lead bullet with a coating called Hi-Tek Supercoat Bullet Lube system. This coating has been imported from Australia where it has been in use for the past 20 plus years. The Hi-Tek Supercoat Bullet Lube totally encapsulates the lead projectiles and replaces standard wax lube. The advantage of this lube is that is stops leading and you will see a great reduction in smoke when shooting. The manufacturer in Australia shut down a range and did a lead study which determined that bullets coated with their coating are safe to shoot at indoor ranges. If its good enough for humans it should be fine for the environment!!!!!

  98. Ammo manufacturers should use their clout to deal with this. Stopping all sales to California including law enforcement agencies would force the state to reconsider.

    One question about the enforcement of the law is this. How will they ensure that all hunters will use compliant ammo?

  99. Since California banned lead ammunition for hunting, did they also include the military training bases? Are the hundreds of thousands of rounds expended on Camp Pendleton, Mare Island, Twenty-Nine Palms, etc, authorized because it seems to me that if a Condor can get lead poisoning from a single bullet in a deer, then many of them would be killed from the literal tons of lead projectiles left around the training bases.

  100. Dr. Dave: How about the economic loss? How’s if we put an economic hurtin’ on them? If we all got together and did that I think it could put a bigger hurt on the economy of California and that might bring these idiot politicians to their senses. It’s not that far to Oregon, Nevada and Arizona. There’s even some legal hunting in Mexico. A campaign to go out of state and spend our money in their hotels, their restaurants and their other related businesses should get through to these clowns in Sacramento a lot faster.

    1. Hank, excellent idea. When deer hunting waas stopped in Fairmount Park in Philadelphia years ago the deer population exploded and the deer decimated all the lovely plants and shrubs in the park. I believe the PETA people or some other group wanted the deer to get injected wiht birth control medication. that did not work. So finally they had to hire sharp shooters to come in to kill the excess deer. Here in rural Maryland I am seeing herds of 12-14 deer grazing in with our horses every evening. The young trees in the forest have been decimated. California will be a wasteland when hunters stop hunting in retaliation to the ban on lead ammunition and the higher cost of a substitute. How about making a substitute that is proven as good aas lead and is as cheap first. Then propose a ban on lead? Wouldn’t that make more sense?

    2. Good thoughts. Same thing happened in Grand Blanc Michigan. Where I used to live as with Mike in Maryland. Hurt the pocket book. that’s the only why greedy people understand….

  101. They’ve taken a regional environmental issue and made it an economical and political crisis, and we’re stuck in the middle. The copper ammo is expensive, outrageously so. $20 compared to $48 to $54 for a box of twenty 30.06 ammo, and as far as I’m concerned that is grand theft.

    My wife and I each bought a new semi auto shot guns and mine came with a disclaimer that if I use steel shot it voids the barrel warranty. How do you like them apples?

    1. It is a Catch 22. I suggest everyone in California who wants lead ammunition buy it out of state on your next trip out of your hell hole socialistic-liberal-progressive Peoples’ State. If you are hunting by the new ammo that has no lead. heck, a $3.00 bullet to bag a deer is still a great deal. For target practice use lead. i just wonder whether California will next claim the new ammunition without any lead is armor piercing and therefore illegal to buy and own. In which case buy a lot of it also out of state. You will need it when the next American Revolution starts. Remembers most liberals except politicians who hire many body guards 24 hours a day at tax payers’ expense don’t like to even touch a gun let alone have one in the house. that is good. Burglars and rapist know which houses and women are safest to rob and rape. Put a list on non-gun owners in the newspapers to make it easy for the criminals to locate the gun-free homes.

      here is an observation about use of lead bullets to hunt. The lead bullet expands and is usually inside the carcass. No person with a brain n their head eats the lead bullet. It would break your tooth at the least. I would doubt you would get enough lead absorbed even if you did swallow some lead. Unless you did this repeatedly and drank an acidic beverage to wash down and dissolve th lead, there is really no significant health problem. I doubt know how many hunters wound and loose a deer shot with a lead bullet bt i would guess is is a small percentage of hunters who don’t immediately kill their deer or track it if it is wounded. How many dead Condor have been analyzed to determine if they had toxic levels of lead anyway? How many Condors or California Golden eagles can a windmill power plant farm kill a year with no penalties, nor closing them down or forcing them to use windmill blades made of foam rubber so as not to kill a rare bird/ None.This AC Law is a deliberate ttack on the 2nd Amendment. They next thing they will do is impose a $20.00 a round tax on ammunition. Or require a license to buy ammunition and then never issue a license, like how the government banned marijuana in the 1930s. They made a tax on marijuana mandatory but never printed any required tax stamps!

    2. Hate to tell ya but Ammo permits are the BS law in Connectishieght since last year. So Kalifonia, won’t be the first to implement that one.

  102. I think this short sighted and falsely supported law has basically ended hunting in Calif. and if something isn’t done it is likely to spread. This is also why in my many protest to the BATFE and my legislatures my biggest issue with the ill-conceived ban on the green tip would lead to a ban on all bullets if lead based bullets became restricted for use.

    We have to stop the anti gun people from running the politicians.

  103. Please explain the tremendous comeback of the Bald Eagle nationwide while throughout the years of their recovery, hunters were using lead ammo. If raptors are killed by a single lead pellet from a hunter or fisherman, why have they done so well?

    I am not against a ban on lead. I am against a back door circumvention of our rights under the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

    This is NOT about protecting wildlife. It IS about controlling people and infringing upon their rights.

    1. That is an easy one, DaveW. Not easy to do, but easy to answer. The comeback of the Bald Eagle is the result of the DDT ban, and a LOT of hard work by a LOT of people.

      If you read about DDT and eagles, you will find that it made egg shells too thin for the eggs to be viable. With DDT gone, eagles can again reproduce.

  104. It always the democrats, Just like the real reason
    Eric Holder is resigning, because he got
    caught lying toCONGRESS over
    Fast & Furious SCANDAL!!
    Wackos like pelosi boxer & waxman

  105. Thank you for the great article and update.

    I am disturbed, however, by conflicting arguments. We know that the anti-hunting and anti-gun community disseminates “facts” and “arguments” based more on emotion and hysteria than data.

    We cannot trod that same path. On the one hand, I have read for years, now, that the false lead readings are the result of condors nesting by lead deposits in the region. Now, all of a sudden, it comes from paint chips. Is this another Internet folk legend, or is there a specific locale, along with a reporting party’s name, that we can attach this disclaimer to? How can one verify this “news?”

  106. I’m as outraged at the attempted ban on the M855 green tips as anyone, and am strongly against the many efforts we see to erode our second amendment rights. Make no mistake, the current “ruling class” has a plan, and it is a plan to give them much greater power once they disarm us.

    However, that is not what this is about.

    Lead is not something that builds up in a bird over time, and kills them. It happens much faster than that. I see it first-hand way too often here in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

    With waterfowl, such as our trumpeter swans, the birds eat small gravel to help their gizzards break grind up the food that they eat. Old lead pellets from waterfowl hunting years ago, as well as split shot and other small fishing sinkers, settle in the same places as the small gravel. The birds ingest them, grind them up in their gizzard, then the lead is absorbed into the bloodstream where it causes brain damage. The swans die an ugly death. That is why lead was outlawed in the 80s for waterfowl hunting.

    For the carrion eaters such as your condors, vultures and our bald eagles, the mechanism is different. When a hunter leaves behind a gut pile from a deer, elk, antelope, etc., often there are bullet fragments in the gut pile. The bird eats the fragment, and while there is no gizzard in this type of bird, they have very strong stomach acid which dissolves the fragment. From there on, it is the same thing. Brain damage, and an awful death. Here, we see a large number of eagles lead poisoned after the deer season. All it takes is a small fragment, and the eagle is dead in a relatively short time.

    I don’t believe that a real sportsman would intend to leave this kind of damage behind, when there are really good alternatives.

    We have good alternatives. For waterfowl, steel became a high performing load, with better patterns than lead. With time, it became inexpensive to shoot. Tungsten is better, but still expensive. For rifle ammo, there are copper bullets that perform better than lead. They are more expensive, but compared to the cost of the trip, the difference is less than the cost of one more candy bar.

    It is time that we took charge of this. If we had done so in the past, we would not have given the libs an opportunity to use this issue as part of a bigger ammo grab.

    This is just common sense, guys.

    1. I am with you 100%. And yes ammo is very expensive, but why dont I see anyone commenting on the fact the we are paying $20.00 to $40.00 for a box of ammo that costs less than $5.00 to load at home so even less for the ammunition company to build in bulk.
      Im thinking, if we stop paying 400 to 1100 times more for ammo than the cost to make it. All prices will drop . We get safe for the environment ammo, and get to shoot as much as we want.

      side note for the ones who will argue about the 400 to 1100 times more over cost. If you can load it yourself at $5.00. And pay $20.00 thats 100% = $5.00 so 20.00 is 100%+100%+100%+100%= 400%. So maybe its not alot to some but to me I spand $1.00 for something then give them $3.00 as a thank you for letting me buy your product is just mugging me for my money.

    2. jgarey, it does tick me off that the alternatives are expensive to buy, but by putting a little work, you are right, we can reload inexpensively.

      For me, same with fishing tackle. I recycled the lead in my tackle box, and replaced it with tungsten and bismuth/tin alloy. The lures were expensive in the store, so I rolled my own. It is pretty easy, using tin plumbers solder (no lead) to solder tungsten beads to jig hooks. Casting the bismuth/tin larger jigs is easier than lead, because it melts at 280 F. Not good to powder paint, though, because it will melt in your oven.

      There are always ways. Wide availability and increased competition will bring the price down soon.

    3. Why is California banning lead ammunition used at rifle ranges where they collect the lead from the target traps and sell it for recycling? I bet most of lead ammunition is bought and stored and not even shot for hunting or target shooting. Except rare avid target shooters , most people don’t shot that many bullets in a year.
      What are the substitutes for lead that don’t destroy a rifled barrel and would not be armor penetrating while having the same power, accuracy and knock down effect? To use a bullet that only wounds a deer would be horrible. Since the liberal politicians who pass these laws don’t even know a semi-automatic rifle is not a machine gun, nor the first ting about ballistics and humane hunting, the consequences of switching to some other metal, a steel core, or a plastic tip may not be well investigated. The American eagle is thriving in a lot of places now despite use of lead ammunition. Do they really know how big a problem lead ammunition is to birds that eat carrion? I have never seen a dead vulture here in Maryland where I live in a rural part of the state which has a lot of hunting.

  107. Gee, thanks Mike. You just insulted a great many non-progressives who have been in this state perhaps longer than you have walked this planet.

    Very civil of you. Just the thing that gives the lefties more ammo.

  108. California being itself. P.T. Barnum was right.

    Clinical designation IQ
    Idiot 0-25
    Imbecile 26-50
    Moron 51-75

    Take your pick for your designated politician.

  109. Hey Don-You are so right on the money.Levin talks about these same points on the radio and it infuriates me.Moved to N.C. to get away from the N.E. idiots who put up with all the crap because they do not know any better.This is G-ds Country both literally and figuratively.

  110. Reminds me of the DDT HOAX. One of the safest, most effective ways to stop milaria especially in third world nations. They BAN it on a TOTAL hoax and now hundreds of thousands have died but the environmentalist whacos don’t care! As long as the “FEEL” like they have done something good. It has been PROVEN that DDT was NO threat to birds but good luck getting it back.

    1. Mc Ruger: If you think it’s a hoax, do me a favor, take a trip to Alaska and tell me what you see in glaciers. Some are so blind who can not see.

    2. Agreed, and others are blind because they believe everything they’re told to believe. When the president of the country says global warming is the biggest problem facing this country you just have to be suspect.

  111. Hunters in the State of California should take a break from hunting all together in California, for about 5 years. Go out of State to hunt. This will cause a proliferation in the deer population, both Whitetail and Mule.
    The State of Ohio had adopted a one week hunting season back in 1997, I believe. This led to an over abundance of road kills, auto damage, injuries to humans, as well as deaths. So, if the hunters in California will cease all hunting for say 5 years, the deer population will explode. The rise in traffic accicents, and death to drivers should go up considerably. This in itself may be a blessing in disguise. Most people, especially non hunters do not realise, that deer breed like mice, not to mention all the other animals that are hunted on a seasonal basis. We have all seen on TV where Deer, Elk, Moose, Bear, Etc come into populated areas, where the hunting pressure is low. I say remove the hunting pressure alltogether. Let Mother Nature take Her course. There is an old saying. It’s not nice to mess with Mother Nature. I encourage Californians to go ahead and mess with her.In areas that had a shortened hunting season, the rise in traffic accidents was up by 8.3 %, according to State Farm Ins. and the overall death to humans, due to collisions with deer was over 2,000,000 Nationwide. Now imagine a state with no hunting.It could actually be a blessing.

  112. I think as part of the Iran Nuke agreement we ship all the residents of the great state of California, they can act as our monitors for the next decade or 2. .

  113. I’ve been using non-lead ammo for years because I like the performance. I hardly see any price difference between premium lead ammo and premium non-lead ammo. It only takes one round to put 100 pounds or more meat in my freezer, so I don’t care if the ammo costs $2.50 a round. I pay a heck of a lot more than that for gasoline to get to a good hunting spot.

  114. I’m absolutely fed-up with these so-called geniuses that think they know what’s BEST for every situation. DON’T do this. YOU CAN’T do that. This has been the PROBLEM for years. IDIOTS making laws for the PUBLIC to follow. The left-wing MORONS in D.C. and especially the NIT-WIT LIBS in California don’t have a flippin clue. They think if they make NEW laws about everything they don’t like; the problems will go away. WRONG! All they’ve done is CREATE more problems. Law Enforcement CAN’T and WON’T uphold the the Laws we already have on the BooKS; let alone making more.

  115. Sportsman stop spending money on all outdoor licenses; hunting,fishing,camping etc. Screw the DEC. The only way to change these laws are to elect republicans and stop the funding.

  116. It seems to me that California is going to lose a lot of money by banning lead ammo. A loss of sales tax along with less hunting license revenue. This is just another example of politicians ramming their own agenda down our throats instead of governing by solid facts.

  117. Geeess. Will that stinking state break off and fall in the freaking ocean all ready. They want to be a communist state so bad, I say separate them from the rest of America and give them to communist china maybe they will finally be happy then…………………………………………….NOT.

  118. Geee people…where does lead come from?…the earth, it’s not a mystery, just like oil comes from the earth, you spill some, where does it go?….back in the earth!…these FN enviromentalists should all be removed from the earth for being so FN stupid! All Man made products come from the earth in the way of steel crude and lead….ALL COMES FROM MOTHER NATURE! DUH!

  119. If there is any doubt left there is a push to take forearms from the citizen this sets the nail. This is bad news for firearms and has zero to do with lead in the environment. This is a clear win for the anti-gun side, period.

  120. Bobbys have a whistle and a silly hat, AND they have a stick which they are very adept at using. And, surprise!, more and more of them are being armed or have arms readily available if needed. Way back when England was bereft of immigrants except from Commonwealth nations, there was an unwritten agreement between criminals and cops. As long as one side didn’t use firearms, the other side wouldn’t. However, the demographics of England have greatly changes, just as the influx of Eastern Euros, Africans, and others has changed the criminal elements in our country. For example, the old Italian Mafia had standards which prohibited involvement in the drug trade and the killing of innocent bystanders. Criminals today come from nations where such things are normal everyday conditions. People who would not hesitate to toss a grenade into a crowd just to take out one person.

  121. Yeah, like one of the most rabid anti-gun state legislators (Ye) who was arrested for dealing in illegal arms sales. There are a couple of legislators who it would appear, do nothing but thing of ways to ban firearms use and write bills to submit. They are Hispanics and they are Democrats.

  122. I see your point regarding a range. However, your point regarding out on the hunt is misguided. Five lead bullets per hunter missing the game would not add a significant amount of lead into the environment when you consider how many square miles of hunting areas exist, and when you consider how much lead and other carcinogens exist naturally in the environment. For example, the Sierra-Nevada Mountain range, and the Cascade range is filled with natural asbestos, yet wildlife lives in abundance. More dangerous to the wildlife is overpopulation which leads to starvation and pandemics which devastate the herds and endanger humans. What is more dangerous for the humans who hunt are the city slickers who, even though they have taken a hunters course, enter the woods and have no idea what. People who hear a sound and shoot another deer hunter out of a tree stand.

  123. Just another way to circumvent the truth. Lead isn’t the problem, but we the gods of the legislature say it is. SO WHAT if there is no PROOF?

  124. When I was younger, my grandfather and I reloaded… including casting our own bullets. Fortunately, he was an auto mechanic and at the garage he collected many pounds of lead from wheel weights used to balance wheels. Just had to add a little antimony until when you scratched the lead casting with a thumbnail it left a bright shiny scratch. Then off to his den where we loaded box after box for about 1/2 what a box of new cartridges cost (back then it cost us about $2 to load a box of 50). Lately, I have been perusing the catalogs for reloading equipment.

  125. Aside from agriculture, the use of illegals in California for mowing lawns, babysitting, etc, is restricted to a rather small portion of the state’s population. Most of people’s money goes to support illegals and the children of illegals obtaining educational and medical benefits.

    Things were much better when so-called illegals came for the harvests and then went home. We didn’t have to provide them with good housing, equal pay, education, medical. A family of migrant workers might live in tents and a stationwagon, cook over an open fire, etc. Unions ruined those days by pushing to unionize migrant workers. That, in turn, drove up prices for fruit, veggies, and meat. Yet people in other states, as well as here, fully support the unions and unionization of ever means of production. They should read and pay heed to the writings of Karl Marx (as our president surely has) about using the unions to formulate a one world government and control everything and everyone.

    I support migrant workers, or work visas, because “Americans” will not accept working at the jobs they do. Not as long as the government rewards people for not working. Just as rewarding illegals with medical and educational benefits will not end the problem, it only increases the problem.

  126. Actually, we had a similar drought back in the 1970s. Historically, we have had droughts which have actually seen major rivers like the Sacramento R. run dry.

  127. There will never be that BIG ONE where CA falls into the ocean. There will be big ones which will cost conservative lives as well as cost non-Californians money from taxes for such national disasters. Is that what you really want?

  128. In the last election which saw conservatives take power in DC, the same happened in California.

    We are now back to the great state we were prior to the 1960s when liberals flooded here, but it is a move in the right direction.

    I am a 5th generation Californian I guess though my ancestors came here before it was a state, and my children are 6th though they were raised by their mother in her home state. I understand how California has gone downhill under the liberal leadership (even Awnode was a liberal because he essentially did as his liberal wife instructed). No longer is a college education free or essentially free to residents. The infrastructure is breaking down, the taxes are rising, businesses, overburdened with regulations, are leaving. I do not blame them or the conservative voters for leaving, but it does make it that much harder for the remaining conservatives to fight on. Yet we do as shown by the recent elections. Even liberals are getting fed up. That is a repeat of the days of Gov Pat Brown which saw the entry into politics and the election of Ronald Reagan. There is still hope for change.

  129. California is a beautiful state but is full of fruits and nuts . look who is their Governor Moon Beam BROWN I feel sorry for all the sportsmen in California. Shame on the FRUITS AND NUTS. BILL T

  130. it seems to me that if one bans the use of lead because of environmental degradation then must ban the use of catalytic converters in autos. The metals used in the converters are highly toxic and many end up improperly disposed of.Attack these laws religiously and they will be discarded. Imagine politicians who love this country.

    1. Their lead content tests were no doubt severely biased by the inclusion of birds that had been shot being listed as dying due to lead poisoning.

  131. hopefully some company will think of something real quick to replace them lead bullets, cci has, they always do one way or another someone always does. in the mean time vote all them Dems out

  132. CA is going back to desert. And I couldn’t be happier about that. God bless the natural habitat CA is becoming. Save the desert mouse!

  133. Don’t think PETA and the rest of the eco-Nazis have not thought of something similar if they can’t ban hunting altogether. They don’t even stop to wonder how resource management will be paid for if there were no hunter, target shooter, fishermen, etc. And they don’t care if taxes on “whatever” were added to cover such costs.

  134. Well if they can’t ban ammo one way they will try another. So how long til the federal government does the same thing to all states. Its ridiculous. The whole reason we have firearms and are allowed to possess them, according to our second amendment, is to keep an oppressive governmentfrom infinfringing on our rights. So ridiculous that the majority of laws and regulations is anti gun. And we’re so concerned about saving animals but its totally fine to kill human beings before they r born. Terrible.

  135. Once again, from California, the land of “fruits and nuts”, comes yet another idiotic law aimed at screwin’ over the sportsman. When are you people going to “grow a pair” and vote these zealots with a personal agenda out of office? The politicians and political appointees forget that THEY WORK FOR YOU. And, the Citizens seemed to forget that these politicians, THEY WORK FOR YOU. It is downright embasassing! Come down to Texas where WE THE PEOPLE have a say. Where politicians realize a one term career is a real possibility if you forget you work for the Citizens of The Great Republic of Texas. Harry Reid is FINALLY exiting stage left. Time for the Pelosi types and like minded politicians to follow his example and move on to better things, like retirement! The Obama leaves the WH and WE THE PEOPLE elect someone who can begin to repair the damage done by self-serving politicians. And, by the way, you can keep the change!!!

    1. This goes a little off topic, but people need to understand that there are many good conservatives in California. In fact there are quite a few good liberals here who lean right when it comes to hunting and fishing.

      Since you say “you people” referring to residents of California, it is clear you do not live here, and you do not understand how things work here. That isn’t your fault.

      First, you have to understand that only about 6% of the state’s land is developed (read “populated”). The majority of that 6% is concentrated in the San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento. The majority of the population and voters reside there. The majority of those voters are liberals. Many who have come here because it is such a liberal state. Conservatives have been abandoning the state, leaving fewer and fewer to fight the system. The majority of conservatives who remain are those who live in rural areas (the remaining 94%) where life is totally different than life in the cities.

      The state legislature’s leftists have held a super majority for quite some time. They write these laws, and push ’em through over the objections of the conservative minority. And what reaches the liberal governor’s desk most often is signed into law without question. Then it becomes a case of the right leaning people to mount a suit which can last a long time and is quite expensive… not to mention hard to co-ordinate since we are spread far and wide. However, with the aid of the NRA and CRPA, a few suits have been won.

      We are fighting, but it is like Gen Custer vs the Indians… we are surrounded and greatly outnumbered.

    2. While you are correct, I do not live in California, and I would not live there, we have our share of “fruits and nuts” here in Texas, especially in Austin and Dallas. I do not think we will ever go the way of “the Left Coast”, because we would let our state government act toward us the way Sacremento acts toward you. If you would be free, you must act to be free. Civil disobedience and the tactics of the Left are the only way, short of armed conflict, to meet them and defeat them.

    3. Dave

      That’s a pretty good summary.

      Dems have held majority power since 1970…and that’s just about when all the strict gun laws started up.

      There’s another significant factor I would add to the equation. I am Mex-Amer and I say this with insight and respect. The large Hispanic community who vote in Calif automatically register/vote Democratic. Many love firearms and hunting. Unfortunately too many don’t connect the dots when it comes to politics, Democrats, and 2nd amendment rights. The Democratic Party has played on this for a very long time. The Democratic Party continues to play smoke and mirrors with the Hispanic community on this and other issues.

      If you doubt this, try your own little experiment next time you’re talking to someone of Hispanic descent in Calif. Ask them if they vote in the first place or which party do they favor. Then ask if they approve of firearms or own one. If yes, I bet you’ll be surprised by the answers. The real problem I see is that many gun owners, especially young people, don’t vote. And that’s the wider problem.

    4. Believe me, in addition to serving along side some GREAT Hispanics in the armed forces, in both war and peace, there are indeed a great number who hold conservative values from religion to guns, but, unfortunately, as you say, they vote Democratic. My cardiologist is an immigrant from Mexico, where he received his medical education. But, he is not a Mexican. Today he, in his own words, bleeds Red, White, and Blue. He hates the progressive ideology (he hates ObamaCare!). Those ideas are not the American ideals he immigrated for.

      We need more Hispanics who recognize how the Dems play them, to go to the Hispanic communities and shout loud and clear the message of how they are being robbed of the American Dream by supporting the Demos. How it is their tax dollars being siphoned off for education and medical, and more, which could be going for people who are already Americans in their hearts if not legally yet, in their communities.

    5. “All right, they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”
      – Lewis B. Chesty Puller, USMC

      As Sgt. Maj. Basil Plumley allegedly said to then LTC Harold Moore at the battle of Ia Drang in 1965, “Sir, Custer was a p***y. You ain’t no p***y.”

      If you can’t use lead, maybe they’d prefer depleted uranium.

    6. The democrats have pandered to the minorities to gain their votes. A look at history reveals democrats have been on the wrong side of equality, fairness, civil rights, and all of the issues. They say one thing but do another and you have to look no further today than Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. They play minorities and hollywood elite for fools. No wonder they want to control guns and education……just like Hitler did.

  136. The best way to combat such legislation, is for manufacturers to simply stop shipping their products into California. Companies such as Ruger and S&W stopped doing business with and to California because of the ridiculous laws that made business in the state, intolerable. Not only does an economic boycott of California place consumers/taxpayers in the hot seat, already provoking people to vote with their feet and move out of state, but state law enforcement pays the price for not having access to the latest in technological enhancements……potentially placing criminals in possession of superior technology, and placing LEOs and the average law abiding citizen at a disadvantage in this respect.

    Perhaps when the well-being of lawmakers are placed at risk by the consequences of their actions, these self-absorbed

    1. That’s a good one Jim.

      Whatever the state of Calif doesn’t allow for it’s citizens, then the manufacturers don’t sell even to LEOs. An outright boycott might even be better. Then let LEOs be like British bobbies armed only with a whistle and a silly hat.

      It’s going to take drastic action like manufacturer boycotts, and more gun owners getting out there to vote. I know way too many gun owners who don’t vote! Really!? And then they complain about all the restrictive laws.

  137. The need to reduce the amount of lead in the environment is not new. We’ve been hearing about it for years. The consequences are undeniable. The problem is/was/will always be that manufacturers will not change their ways voluntarily. Even when alternatives are readily available, they will stick to the old ways to the very end. Or until Uncle Sam forces them to.

    The automotive industry in CA had this same issue and now it is illegal to install lead weights when balancing your car tires. Lead weights flying off the wheel land on the side of the road and end up in the ground water. So did we just stop balancing tires? No. They just started making them out of something else.

    They make them out of steel. And while this might not work for bullets, the fact remains that there is an alternative. And if ammo makers had embraced the change and re-tooled before now, we wouldn’t have a need for a law to force them to. But they make more money by waiting it out and for demand to out strip supply. Then, they can charge you whatever they want. They know you are not gonna stop hunting.

    It’s not about lead bullets. It’s about change. So much has changed due to laws we hated. Seat belt anyone? I feel naked and vulnerable without mine now but when I started driving nobody wore one. Do you make your children wear one?

    Change costs money so they hold out as long as they can. Even if technology gives them alternatives, they don’t change. But now they have to. And they will change because if they don’t someone else will.

    So once ammo makers get done raking us over the coals, we’ll see plenty of non-lead ammo at reasonable prices. Supply and demand. Welcome to America.

    Personally, I don’t care what they make ammo out of. As long as it works, what’s the big deal?

    Lastly, here’s something to think about; What if we, the shooting sports citizens of America had started clamoring for lead-free ammo years ago? The ammo makers would have gotten into a race to be the first to bring it to market. There would be lots of different compounds. Catchy slogans and promotions for free stuff!

    And more importantly, it would have shown those crazy Liberals that we, the shooting sports citizens of America, are way ahead of them when it come to protecting the environment. It would have taken away their forum for change and silenced their whining. (At least until they found some other reason to complain).

    Think about it. Gun owners – the champions of protecting the environment!

  138. So they’re really worried about the condor? Then why is it acceptable that many condors, eagles and a wide range of game animals are allowed to be be slaughtered by the wind turbines throughout the state? Typical Kalifornia BS. They would have us give up our guns, turn over our paychecks and beg for forgiveness for every problem on the planet if they could have their way. I say F’em.

  139. Why would anyone in their right mind live in that piece of crap state. Move to a state that respect their citizens rights. If you stay there you get what you deserve and that is socialism.

  140. So many reasons why I decided to leave the state when I retired from the AF at Beale AFB in 1992. I saw the firearm restrictions with the Assault Rifle registration requirement, taxes on everything, stupid voters electing people who wanted to control everyone. No thanks, I am happier in Texas. Not perfect, but we are not a criminal friendly state.

  141. I noticed only “hunting” was mentioned so I suppose LEO usage will be ok regardless of how many rounds go off target and into land or water… Just sayin…..

    1. Part of my last point below was that this will likely continue to the next level. The Calif Dems will now fabricate a reason to “protect us” from all lead ammo. Of course LEO will always be exempt from any laws that apply to citizens. This is how you start the process of a police state.

  142. Enough of the ban guns, ban bullets, ban suppressors, ban black guns and the rest. Let’s make them sorry what they wished for, let’s develop laser weapons! No lead, no noise, no high capacity issues and I’d be willing to have mine silver colored or camo. Then what will they find to bitch about??

    1. Laser weapons? That will make the politicians want to ban super-capacitors. They will argue that we don’t need Farads worth of capacitance. Outlawing those capacitors will keep the children safe from those evil rail-guns and laser weapons, LOL!

  143. The 2nd amendment says “the right to bear arms.” It doesn’t specify firearms or ammunition. Given the text and content of the statement, added to it the times our forefathers had just gone through, the obvious conclusion is that we as citizens are intended to have the right to own and carry and firearm regardless of size, shape our caliber. We are also given the right to have it full of ammunition. It is a good given right passed on to us by our founders. They can ban lead for hunting, but they cannot ban us from owning it or even sitting it in target practice. I don’t use lead now for hunting but do for target. I always wonder how far people can be pushed before pushing back.

  144. Any law or regulation that may restrict ammunition makers from huge profits are always protested. Lead is a dangerous mineral and safer ones should be used for bullets and shot. We don’t use lead based paint in our homes anymore for the same reason

    1. Idiotic comment. Lead is in the ground, it is a mineral, since when do you have eat lead bullets? Really a specuious argument.

  145. California u all r really stuiped u all just a lot of money so no lead well this is to all hunters start making your own lead ammo or go full metal jackets round and keep the hunting tradition alive if we don’t do that we will b over run by wild animals then lock and load .

  146. I would just look for work out of state and move there if I lived there. Deprive the state of my tax dollars. Let them pay welfare to all those leftist voters without using my money to do it.

  147. I’m in total support to begin finding alternatives to lead ammo, especially for hunting. We’ve come a long way since the 1800s to find modern alternatives. Perhaps we can satisfy the Calif liberals and make ammo out of tofu.

    But seriously…the problem in Calif is that the State continues to take and there is no give. The Calif Democratic majority have an agenda and they have proven time and again they are willing to push us down that slippery slope of a total gun ban. So I agree that the timing of this law coincides badly with other anti-gun Democratically initiated legislation that side steps the 2nd Amendment and continues to restrict our options.

    If they are going to ban lead, then loosen up restrictions on other inexpensive metal alternatives. Sadly, in the mean time we cannot trust our Calif state legislatures to respect the 2nd Amendment and we should oppose these well intentioned and environmentally sound measures until they show willingness to respect gun rights and the free market place.

    Anyone want to bet that the next piece of ammo restrictive legislation that Calif Dems will introduce will be a total ban of lead ammo anywhere.

    1. It won’t be long and all projectiles will have to be lead and copper free in the People’s Republic of California! When are you folks going to leave that place or violently overthrow the communist government?!

  148. This is very sad, I don’t know what to tell you. It may not be much. But I no longer spend $$ or vacation/ business in those States. I have written Govenors telling them so. Come live in KY we are no longer the UNITED STATES : (

  149. I believe that “shall not be infringed” makes all laws unconstitutional. Banning ammo would be included. If there were no alternatives to lead then that would be a major problem, but there are. It makes sense to me that hunting with lead would introduce lead into the meat as well as the environment. Sometimes people are to ignorant to do what is logical. If you need more than a few rounds to get your game then you better practice more, so a couple dollars more should not be a problem. You should stop and consider all the people that shoot lead into the ground during practice – hundreds of rounds. Even if Condors are eating lead paint it still makes no sense to add more lead to our forests.

    1. I sell a gun product and am pro 2nd amendment over everything else. Click my name and you will see the item I sell for California. There is a new opportunity with each new gun law. If other states outlaw lead for hunting as well then other bullet materials will be developed and will be cheaper over time. It sucks that new development happens this way, but “need is the mother of invention”.

    2. @Rick
      Rick, I don’t have any disagreement really with what your trying to say except that the logic dosnt hold up. This new Kalifornia law is nothing more than another thinly covered attempt at back door control and further undermining citizen Rights.
      IF, and that’s a big IF, they were REALLY concerned with lead contamination and it’s effects in wildlife and the environment they would have outlawed lead munitions across the board …. Hunting and TARGET/RANGE use, self defense …. very thing!!! The law as I ynderstand it only impacts hunting. I’d bet that ALOT more lead goes into the TARGET /RANGE catagory than hunting.
      One has to ask what the real
      hidden agenda here is and why a state is allowed to run rough shod over its citizens using incorrect, incomplete, untruths, and criminal misdirection to formulate their incomplete idea of the culture that they want.
      Fact is: lead munitions is only banned for hunting in Californa. NOT ownership or target/range/practice. At least not yet ….. I’d make a guess here that this is just the first law about lead free munitions to be seen from this corrupt state government. As in so many such issue, to begone to understand them one needs to follow the money.

    3. I assume that Californian residents will still be able to buy cheaper lead containing ammunition for target practice at rifle ranges where condors are not eating putrid meat? If this is a ban of all lead ammunition in California than it is unConstitutional.

    4. Yes, I noticed so many of our ancestors had health problems from the ingestion of lead tainted meats, because they could only eat what the killed. All other substitutes for lead are heavy metals on the periodic table, and thus are toxic when ingested in enough quanities. Lead based paint was outlawed by the government because children will eat anything, especially when their crack-addicted mothers don’t feed them. Not because it was polluting the water and killing condors.

  150. Until those in Rural areas of California can be adequately represented our interests will always be subservient to the whims of urban dwellers. Poulation=votes. The idea of splitting California makes sense because of the insurmountable conflict in priorities between the large urban areas and massive ag interests vs the outlying, pastoral and less populated rural California. However, because they have the votes and desperately need our water the urban South will never approve such a split. This is a situation which echoes a larger but very similar issue nationally – densely populated urban States whose populace tend to depend heavily on Govt services, public transportation, housing subsidies, services etc vs the more rugged independent ruralites who depend on their own skills and wits vs the Govt to get things done. The two groups tend to think and vote very differently. This has caused a schism which is dividing this country which opportunists like Obama and Clinton are exploiting to maximum effect. If we are to survive as a nation well must find the things we still have in common or this country will cease to exist as a free Republic and will look more like socialist Europe.

  151. This is nothing more than an incremental move to ban any metal that can be fashioned into a bullet. Not to protect any wildlife, but to make the shooting sports difficult if not impossible to participate in for anybody.

    All the soft, malleable metals are either banned or are being looked at by the ATF for possible banning as armor piercing bullet metals.

    That’s why I bought a lead melting setup and dies for all the bullet sizes I use. I’m n ext going to buy a bullet swagging setup for making jacketed rifle bullets ay home. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    The second amendment says they can’t ban firearms. But they think they can ban ammunition making firearms only useful as clubs.

    Look for other ‘blue’ states attempting the same thing. Lead has nothing to do with their plan. It’s just a convenient place to start working towards total prohibition of guns. Also look for blue state firearms enthusiasts beginning to move to red states.

    P.S. This is already happening in Texas, which has been the destination for many uprooted California conservatives.

    1. Most of the Californians coming here to Texas want to change us into California. I predict that if you are under 25 you will see the end of all hunting before you die. The south and some of the west will hold out as long as possible, but we will be over whelmed. I ask you how using lead bullets on deer can harm the environment? Its not like millions of pounds are concentrated in a small area. The same great minds like to use windmills to kill eagles and songbirds.

  152. Most serious hunters I know care about the environment. Should we put lead back in paint and gas since it’s in the periodic table? It’s a powerful neuro toxin, last I checked. If you shoot a deer with a $3 round, what is that cost compared to the other costs involved in the hunt? Guns, scopes, range time, targets, other optics. clothes, feeders, video cameras, scent, hide scent, leases, trucks, airplane tickets, cases…. C’mon, who are we kidding?
    Even those on a tight budget hunting for meat close to home only are able to because so many people have money to buy food, etc… If another Great Depression hits without gov assistance, game for starving locals stressing out over ammo cost will vanish very quickly..:
    If you want to shoot toxic lead go to the range… I LOVE to shoot cheap ammo! I love to shoot lead ammo, as it’s easier on the barrel! But if I know that lead in any amount is bad for the environment, why would I want to keep putting it there? Facts are facts. If Condors are sick from paint chips, that’s not a reason to keep lead ammo- it’s verification that lead is bad for animal life, including ours.
    One other thing: if every state banned lead ammo completely, the market would adjust quickly and approved, affordable, new ammo would be available due to the free market and competition. I have no trouble buying a wide range of lead free paint, and gas it turns out, was not really better with lead! It was a bunch of bull from the lead lobby- I like guns and shooting- but just like there are tons of sheep following the “liberal-environmentalists” there are tons of sheep swallowing the party line of the HUGE gun and ammo lobby- it’s BIG BUSINESS folks!!! If they have to change manufacturing, their profits will fall. It will hurt them much fire than the average deer hunter.

  153. Sadly the insanity of the mental disturbed let is oblivious to the laws of
    nature and how our planet works. They make statements with no
    factual information but only because it “feels good” and then they go
    have a steak without though of where the meat they are eating came
    from. If the fruit loppers in Mexiphoney want to continue in this vein
    then let them become serious about it and ban all Fishing, Hunting and
    commercial farms where they kill thousand of insects who are just
    trying to get along. Stop employing the Criminal and Illegal Alien
    invaders who mow their lawns, baby sit their children, clean their
    homes and make their lives so easy. Let them do their own
    baby sitting, cooking, waiting tables, driving them around and other
    chores that gives them to much time to do nothing useful. When they
    also just turn all their ill gotten gains over the the State and let
    “Moon Beam” Brown and the “elected idiots” in government blow
    their money up a wild hogs ass and see how long it take for them
    to wake up. Man has dominion over all the creatures on earth and
    they are there to provide for our substance. They are like the
    so called “Climate Change” fools who have no facts unless they
    fabricate them even when proven wrong they still howl and whine
    just like those who cry “Sexist” or “Racist” when they have no
    proof or evidence to back them up.

  154. I have to say that California is a place I can no longer travel to, or support. Responsible gun owners such as I continue to be regulated into oblivion by the legislature of this f’d-up state. I understand California produces many products used globally yet I feel compelled to boycott everything that comes out of California. I do what I can by writing my elected officials and donating to causes that support responsible gun ownership. This law, like many are based on limited studies that excluded certain factual information that contradicts the very conclusion the study arrived at. Shame on them and shame on the California legislature for not fully examining the facts. Rant over.

  155. I feel the new law should be on appeal as Lead is a natural element that is already in our environment . I do not think that they are smarter than God?

  156. This doesn’t change anything for me. im still going to hunt. Those mentioned in the article stating that they will have to stop or reduce amount of time they spend hunting because of the cost make me laugh. 5 dollar difference in ammo is going to keep you from hunting, really?? i spend a fortune on the rest of the expenses from hunting $1.50 for a bullet to kill a deer doesn’t change anything for me. Good luck.

  157. I live in this lunatic asylum, that being said… this is not about condors or protecting the environment. It’s about a back door method of gun control. Since they have failed on so many other fronts, the liberals are going after the ammunition. Pure and simple.

  158. What good are laws if no one breaks them?

    I can, with confidence, state that the next law introduced will be to render the possession of all lead ammunition illegal.

    It is a page from the Marxist handbook that allows the EPA to generate regulation in four months. Every bit of this was thought out decades ago and it is the progressive sheep domiciled in the macro controlled ‘dense’ population centers that render liberty and what remains of this republic irrelevant. They are played like the drama introverts that they truly are.

    California long ago became two wolves that decided the sheep are for dinner and the sheep dogs must be de-fanged at all costs.

  159. As a member of the gun industry located in California, I understand and hear the frustration of California hunters. Though there is no hope for the totalitarian state in which I live and do business in, this law is not unworkable. Fortunately, there is a decent supply of lead free components available today. Though they do cost more, most people use no more than just a few hunting rounds per year. Target and practice rounds can still be lead. For those who live in counties where it is illegal to mail order ammo, my suggestion is to start reloading. In this day and age where politicians are actively pursuing the abrogation of G_d given rights through the abolishment of ammunition, every gun owner needs to learn to reload. Before the advent of Walmart and the metallic cartridge, everyone reloaded their own ammunition. Not to stir up panic but we all know what is coming next. Just hate to see anyone caught with their pants down.

  160. Lead is an element that naturally occurs in nature. How is it a threat to the environment? Lead is also present in the cavity between most California legislature’s ears. This is not naturally occurring, but it is toxic.

  161. Lead is not the issue. This is a cover to restrict ammo. California lead regulations have already stopped shipment of other products.

    Cheaper than Dirt already won’t ship KNIVES to California because the brass parts MIGHT contain a little lead.Fear of being sued. Is ammo next?The CTD do not ship list has several things that ARE legal in CA.

    Lead, copper, brass ,silver—what will vampire slayers do?(big bill). All contain trace amounts of lead.

  162. The state is facing a drought the likes that haven’t been seen in 200 years and moonbeam and co. are worried about condors eating lead???WTF?…idiots…but this will spread to the east coast next, and then slowly into other liberal run states….

  163. I’ve lived in the san Joaquin valley for over 25 yrs now and enjoy upland hunting. I got my 2 sons into as well. In all the yrs that I have lived here I have never seen a condor on the valley floor! To have a lead ban on upland hunting is ridiculous! This is more California bs. Hell I’ve never seen one while in the mountains either come to think of it

    1. California is a cancer, hopefully mother nature will cut it off by having the big one….

    2. It’s clear to see what’s happening here … another step in government’s insidious goal to eventually ban all firearms from the evil public who think they run the government. Since an outright ban of all firearms wouldn’t fly right now, they’ll settle for ammunition bans as the next step ….

  164. There is so much misinformation about lead.

    Back when steel shot was coming on the scene, before lead-free was mandated, I was shooting both. The magazines of the day were running articles about how once lead is in the water for a few, it was no longer toxic. Well, a friend of mine was a wildlife veterinarian, specializing in raptors. He taught me how in waterfowl, the birds grind the lead in their gizzard, exposing new surfaces, and in eagles which have no gizzards, a pellet from a crippled or lost duck, or a bullet fragment from a deer gut pile would dissolve in their strong stomach acid. In both cases, a single pellet would kill them. I switched to steel shot after that, and had no regrets.

    Since then, I have seen firsthand the results of lead poisoning way too many times. It is an awful death. Their brain function is damaged by the lead in their blood, and they get really sick. Here in Minnesota, where we are trying to restore the beautiful trumpeter swans that once thrived here, we find that in about 40% of the swan deaths, lead poisoning is the cause. A pair that had nested on my own property in Wisconsin since the day that there were only 80 nesting pairs in the whole state, both died last year due to lead poisoning.

    As it turns out, lead proved to be substandard in a shotgun, anyway. It was soft, was deformed in the chamber, and curved out of the pattern resulting in lots of cripples. Steel is better now that we know how to pick shot size and velocity, and tungsten, way better. Copper bullets have proven to be more effective on deer than lead, because they do not fragment. Sure, they cost $0.50 more a round. What is the whole cost of a deer hunting trip? How many rounds do you shoot on that trip? If it takes you more than one or two, maybe you should consider spending a little time on the range.

    As a sportsman, I am for clean kills. I am not interested in poisoning eagles, swans, ducks, loons and geese because I am too cheap to buy better ammo or fishing tackle.

    Come on, guys. Let’s use some common sense here. We should have voluntarily switched from lead a long time ago. Now, a law makes us do what we should have done, anyway.

    I never thought I would say this, ever, because California is so far away from my political views, but hooray for California.

    1. It is not about the lead.

      It is this soft-headed thinking that compels freedom loving Americans to spend more money supporting the NRA than hunting, as do I.

      We haven’t used lead for water fall for some time now. This insulting law is not about lead poisoning of any kind. It is about restraint of trade with the insidious long term goal of banning all hunting and ultimately guns, to all but the wealthy, as it is in nearly every country in the world.

      Can you make your own copper bullets? Me either. Think this is a coincidence?

      The endorsement of the bill by the rabidly anti-hunting “Humane Society” should be enough for any real hunter to dismiss this as left-wing propaganda.

      You are either an impostor or delusional, more reason for me to move Minnesota to a free state once retired.

  165. Not your regular hunters. For what a license costs, plus tags, plus travel, weapons, ammo, etc, no regular hunter just shoots something and leaves it behind.

    Sadly, CA has a BIG problem with poachers. We have caught Asians with refrigerated rental trucks, filled with salmon, bear, deer, and much more. On the coast, they gather up illegal abalone. They’ll run nets across streams, trout lines, multiple poles per person… and no licenses.

  166. Thank you. My own family arrived here before 1840. We have been conservatives from the beginning. My ancestors helped build the state’s irrigation systems, dams, levees, bridges, etc. The raised turkeys to feed the gold rush miners, and had the only hotel in their town. Their property was almost 20 miles by 15 miles, on both sides of the Sacramento River.

    For years now, we have had a state legislature controlled by a liberal super majority, which writes and passes legislation which does nothing to benefit the families who have been here for multiple generations. They could care less who built the state they are destroying.

  167. As I recall, the condors did NOT eat the lead from bullets. There were birds which just disappeared and were not found even though they had transponders. Other birds were actually shot, which is totally different than the birds searched high and low for little pellets. There are claims the birds were poisoned from eating deer carrion left in the woods by hunters. Even that I find hard to believe. There is far more lead, and a great many other carcinogens, found naturally in the environment than what hunters might leave behind. I support the breeding program and the return to the environment. I help pay for it when I purchase a license. The non-hunters, fishermen, and range users don’t pay for it. I’m also in favor of the breeding programs for salmon and trout, and so on.

  168. So, the argument is that hunters are so routinely filling the wilderness with animals that they shoot and then do not recover that the scavenging condors are then ingesting that lead in quantities leading to mortality or eggshell weakness?

    Are hunters in California really THAT irresponsible and poor of aim?

    Shouldn’t a study be looking at exactly how much leaded meat is actually staying out in the wilderness? Maybe in the gut piles?

    Moreover, are the Condor really choosing that much hunter loss and waste over the abundance of roadkill?

  169. The real issue is not the lead. This is just another regulation to reduce and control the supply and type of ammo and guns we can have. If a voter knows nothing about guns then this sounds “good for the environment” and they will back it. NOBODY wants a poison environment, not even hunters. Remember the M855 ban? Same idea.They said it was to protect cops,even though almost any “sporting” rifle round will defeat soft body armor.They are going for the support of good people who are not informed. The “low info voter”that decide on sound bites. The ones that think TMZ is news.—-They live in your small towns. Not just NY and CA.
    This will come to your state. “He who thinks he stands take heed least he fall”. This is not just crazy California. They can’t take away the 2nd amendment but they CAN regulate it to death. How do you eat a elephant? One small bite at a time. There are lefties in YOUR state and small town also. CA just has more.

  170. So, no proof that the Condors were poisoned by the lead bullets & they still passed State Bill AB 711. Now ammo will cost twice as much to purchase to hunt in the state of CA & others are sure to follow! Don’t they realize that there are other causes for the deaths of these animals like the testing of our military equipment all around that area!! Fall out from the atomic bombs that were tested!!

  171. Perhaps we should only use “soft” foam bullets, that way hunters would not actually hurt anything!!

  172. I am a native Californian and recall how our state was up until the late sixties to early seventies. It was a great place in which to live and grow up, take part in the beauty of her landscapes, being able to ski the Sierras and surf the beaches in one day. There were few lines and it seemed like everyone worked and lived comfortably. Of course the vast majority actually behaved well and looked out for each other. It killed me to do it but I finally moved out because I realized I probably would not to be able to live long enough to see every out of state jerk that now resides in Sacramento get the boot. It takes something in trouble to crash all the way to the ground before it can get better. At least these clowns are running out of altitude. It is a sad, sad thing. All of my children, grands and great grands desrve a hell of a lot better than they will have to endure.
    I apologize but I can’t say where I went to. God willing, I’ll get to go back some day. I just don’t know.

  173. Isn’t California suppose to have a giant earthquake and fall into the ocean? Of course when it happens the politicians will be in DC.

    1. Few of the odd balls in CA are borne here. They come here from other states.They tend to move out and go flock together.

      Just think what your town or any “Bug Tussle” would look like without California or New York,Atlanta,Chicago,ect.
      Every society needs a asylum for there odd balls and “dreamers”.

      With out CA and the like they would STILL be home in your town!

      Do you still want CA to fall into the sea? They will just move back home!

  174. Just more Liberal propaganda designed to push their fascist agenda of gun control forward . . . and succeeding.

  175. How about …. Death by corrupt, greedy and controlling politics and politicians. Rules and regulation founded on lies and deception because they can’t Move forward with their agenda using the, and/or, based in truth.
    Time will tell how the people will stand.

  176. California is becoming a dictator state made up of Illegals, Muslims and Gays….all of which foster a society of HIV. Hopefully that will wipe out the population and hunting can resume….

  177. I alway’s thought Death, was Death. Death by “Lead Poisoning” or Death by “Elevated Concentrations of Brass”. Hmmm, interesting concept…

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