Hunting and Outdoors

7 Exotic Deer-Rifle Rounds

Guest Post by Todd Woodard, Editor, Cartridges of the World.

With Thanksgiving only a few days away, the question of how to best kill a whitetail or mule deer intrudes on many hunters’ minds, since during the holiday break we might get a chance to walk a few draws or sit in a stand. What we shoot in these times afield is important to us. There are millions of deer hunters with tens of millions of rifles that are used for deer hunting, and cartridge discussions are some of the most entertaining camp talks I’ve had over the years.

Because I’m the editor of Cartridges of the World, when friends or acquaintances get hot for a new rifle, I’ll naturally get some questions about what it might be chambered in. All too often, I see custom rifles set up for a variety of magnums that their owners can’t shoot worth a hoot, and it makes me sad for folks to be overgunned and under-accurate. More than most, I admire the judgment of my dentist, who hunts with a lever-action Winchester Model 88 in .243 Winchester at his lease outside Fredericksburg, Texas. He has tailored his set up for the distances he shoots (>300 yards) and the deer he encounters. Just like picking the right bit for the dental drill, he has picked exactly the right hunting tool for his conditions.

The cartridge advice I usually dispense is to stick with what’s known and proven. The .30-06 Springfield is a fabulously accurate and varied cartridge that can be found in almost every sporting-goods store ever opened. Ditto that with the .30-30 Winchester, the .308 Winchester, and the .270 Winchester, among many others. But what’s known and proven doesn’t have the sizzle of what’s new, flashy, or offbeat.

So for the sake of discussion around the dinner table next week, I selected 10 rounds from the 14th Edition of Cartridges of the World that are exotic enough to mark their owners as being in the vanguard of rifle shooting, but which offer the convenience of loaded rounds being available for them.

6XC Tubb

The 6XC is a development of well-known rifle competitor David Tubb. It is intended for the AR-10 rifle, as well as bolt-action rifles, such as the Tubb 2000, that utilize the AR-10 magazine. The 6XC case is in improved version of the 6mm International, a cartridge created during the early 1960s by avid benchrest shooter Mike Walker. Walker worked for Remington at the time, and the 40X target rifle built in the custom shop of that company has long been chambered for his cartridge. Whereas the 6mm International is the .250 Savage case necked down with no other change, the 6XC is the same case necked down and blown out to the Improved configuration with .015-inch of body taper and a 30-degree shoulder angle. When loaded with match-grade bullets of extremely high ballistic coefficients, such as the 105-grain Berger, 107-grain Sierra MatchKing, and 115-grain DETAC, the 6XC bucks wind as well as cartridges of larger caliber, but its lower level of recoil makes it easier to shoot accurately. Currently, only Norma and DTAC offer loaded ammunition for the 6XC Tubb.

.25-45 Sharps

The .25-45 Sharps cartridge was developed by Michael H. Blank of the Sharps Rifle Company (SRC). The modern Sharps Rifle Company specializes in AR-15 styles of rifles, and that is the platform the .25-45 Sharps was developed for. The goal was to provide optimum ballistic performance from the .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) case. Blank felt the best all-around option was a .25-caliber bullet of 100 grains or less and ultimately settled on a .223 Remington case necked up to .25-caliber with a case length of 45mm and a shoulder angle of 23 degrees. Federal manufactures a factory load for the .25-45 Sharps, under the Sharps name. The cartridge does have merit, with its performance being close to that of the 6.5 Grendel with a similar weight bullet. With modern, lightweight, mono-metal bullets, like the Barnes 80-grain Tipped TSX, the .25-45 Sharps should be a very effective deer and hog cartridge that offers very mild recoil from a bolt rifle or an AR-15.

6.5 Creedmoor

Cartridges of 6.5mm-caliber have never really caught on among American hunters, but some have gained a good bit of ground with long-range target shooters. The 6.5-284 Norma and .260 Remington are excellent examples. The .260 Remington has become popular not only among those who use bolt-action rifles, but among those who shoot AR-10 rifles. In that rifle, the .260 works fine with most hunting bullets, but when loaded with extremely long match bullets, such as the Sierra 140-grain MatchKing and Hornady 140-grain A-Max, they have to be seated quite deeply in the case in order to keep overall cartridge length compatible with its magazine. Engineers at Hornady solved that problem by developing a shorter cartridge called the 6.5 Creedmoor. Maximum length of the case is 1.915 inches, compared to 2.036 inches for the .260 Remington, but since the 6.5 Creedmoor case has a bit less body taper combined with a sharper shoulder angle, its gross capacity is only about five percent less.

.26 Nosler

The .26 Nosler, the first cartridge to bear the Nosler family’s name, was designed to take advantage of inherently accurate and high-BC 6.5mm (.264-caliber) bullets. Based on a shortened .404 Jeffery case, the .26 Nosler case is non-belted, thus, it headspaces off of the shoulder to further enhance accuracy. Bob Nosler, CEO and president of Nosler, Inc., said this is a quintessential deer, antelope, and long-range target cartridge. The case is necked down to 6.5mm with a 40 degree shoulder. The rim is rebated to .532-inch, so a belted magnum bolt face requires no alteration. The Trophy Grade Ammunition load No. 60110 fires a Nosler 129-grain AccuBond Long Range bullet at 3,400 fps out of the muzzle. Zeroed at 350 yards, the .26 Nosler has a point-blank range of zero to 415 yards. Loaded with the 129-grain ABLR, the .26 Nosler retains as much velocity at 400 yards as the .260 Remington produces at the muzzle.

.300 AAC Blackout

The intent behind the .300 AAC Blackout was to offer a .30-caliber cartridge that would function in AR-15 rifles without a reduction in magazine capacity, that was also compatible with the standard bolt, and that would offer both supersonic and subsonic performance. The .300 AAC Blackout was developed by Advanced Armament Corporation (AAC), a subsidiary of the Freedom Group, and is almost identical to the .300 Whisper that was originally developed by J.D. Jones. Another way of looking at the .300 AAC Blackout is as a standardization of the .300/.221 Wildcat cartridge. AAC standardized the case dimensions and submitted the cartridge to SAAMI, which has established the cartridge with a maximum average operating pressure of 55,000 psi. Hunters can expect performance on game to be similar to the 7.62×39 or the .30-30 Winchester. Much of the appeal of this cartridge is its subsonic performance, but there is some contention that optimum performance from an AR-15 is unattainable with either supersonic or subsonic suppressed loads. It is also arguable that a single twist rate offers optimal stabilization with both a 125-grain bullet at 2200 fps and a 220-grain bullet at 1050 fps. AAC suggests that a 1:8 twist be used, and most commercially offered rifles will come so equipped.

.325 Winchester Short Magnum

After introducing its Short Magnum family of cartridges in 2,000, Winchester recognized the need for another cartridge capable of launching 200-grain bullets (and heavier) with high inherent accuracy, energy capable of stopping the largest North American game, and lower perceived recoil. After considering different calibers, Winchester engineers determined the .325-caliber provided the best performance using the Short Magnum case. Released in 2005, the .325 WSM cartridge delivers similar energies as the .338 Winchester Magnum using a smaller case.

In addition to delivering excellent ballistics, the .325 WSM also exhibits exceptional accuracy. Initially, Winchester fielded three loads for the .325 WSM; a 200-grain Nosler Accubond CT, a Winchester 220-grain Power-Point bullet, and a 180-grain Ballistic Silvertip. Hunters can expect delayed, controlled expansion and deep penetration through thick, tough skin and heavy muscle tissue and bone, with ballistic coefficients ranging up to .477 for the 200-grain Nosler bullet.

.375 Allen Magnum

Kirby Allen of Allen Precision Shooting ( made the .375 Allen Magnum for big-game hunting, but the round’s larger bore diameter also makes it suitable for extreme-range target shooting. Like its smaller-caliber brother the .338 Allen Magnum, the .375 Allen Magnum is extremely effective for big-game hunting at long range. With the larger frontal area and heavier bullet weight, this round is suitable for the heaviest animals, especially elk, moose, and other big game at long ranges. With the weight and diameter of this bullet, the .375 Allen Magnum will easily take big game at any supersonic range, assuming the hunter has the ability to put the bullet through the vital area. Even if bullet expansion is minimal, the .375-caliber projectile is effective at cleanly killing big game because of its large frontal area and subsequent large amount of tissue displacement. Fully formed custom brass is available from APS with rifle orders. Rifles for this round are long and relatively heavy, starting around 16 pounds. For more information, check the website or e-mail Kirby Allen at

Adapted from Cartridges of the World, 14th Edition, copyright Gun Digest Books. Reprinted with permission. Paperback, 688 pages, available December 19, 2014. Click here to preorder.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (74)

    1. I don’t know what your price point is or how your planning to use your 6.8 or at what ranges you plan to focus as its envelope.
      NightForce provideds excellent across a wide spectrum but are expensive. They are best know for their Long Distance optics but also produce surburb Hunting and mid-range optics.
      Swovorski, Schmidt Bendet, and Sheapord also offer an excellent group of choices for this caliber.
      If your looking for something that is less hurtful to the wallet check out Burris. They have a MiltiPlex retinal 3-9×40 scope that I use on many of my hunting and mid-range platforms (those shooting 600 meters and under) it’s got a very clean sight picture. Little or no parallax, fair to middling light gather, and most of all its robust. Will take mocks in the field and stay on zero.
      If your interested in something more unique take a look at Trijicon. I belive they even may have something specific for the 6.8 .

      The more expensive listed are all worth the money. You actually get what you pay for with optics. This is not to say that the lower priced optics are not good, they are, often they are better that the price you pay for them. The Burris is an example of this.
      Figure out how you expect to use you 6.8 and at what ranges. What expectations you whould like and/or expect from a scope and use this information for a search. Do not by on line until you can see one at a store. THEN buy it on line! It’s often much less expensive on line. Good on line sources are CTD and Optics Planet.
      You might want to Google “how to choose a rifle scope” or something like that and read up on some of that wisdom after deciding what your needs are going to be. Lots of useful info to be found there but decide what you expect and want first.
      Optics are very important and should not be an afterthought in the process. Get what works, is comfortable and if you have to save for it do so! Don’t short yourself or your platform by mating it with sub-standard optics because they were . . .cheap.
      Just saying, hope this is helpful. Pete sends …

    2. @ Pete in Alaska.

      Hey, Pete. Schlar gut gestern Abend. Did you the information I sent on caliber alternates and the correction of IOS rifle scopes. I hope your friend wasn’t bent to much of of shape, over the corrections.

    3. Thank ya all for the responses. I’m looking to use it for hunting, so definitely don’t need anything over 600 yards for sure. I think our sportsman club range tops out at 600 yards as well. I did see that Trijicon had one for the 6.8, but definitely not looking to fork over that much cash. Maybe if I had more of a tactical use for it, i’d go that route. I did read somewhere that Leupold can set one for the 6.8, but haven’t found any confirmation on that.

    4. @ Tom.

      If price is a problem, then go for the Hawke Optics Panorama 3.9×40 EV Scope @ $131.99 USD. If price ISN’T a problem, then try Leopold Model 110995 Mk. 4 Hamr 4×24 Scope @ 1,299.00 USD. or, the Leupold Mk. 4 3.5-10x Scope @ 1,349.99 USD.

  1. @ Pete in Alaska.

    I’m sorry Pete, I just couldn’t help it. It’s almost out of my system, but with Flashback Moments. The IOS system you two were referring to, are actually two systems, not one. The Standard model is made of Polymer and can be used with iPhone/iPod Touch 4 or higher, and goes for $69.99 USD. The second Pro Model in made of billeted 7075-T651 grade Aircraft Aluminium with an Rubberized-Armor to protect the Aluminium and Internal Electronics. And is available for iPhone/iPod Touch 4 or greater and Android devices, and goes for $129.99 USD. Christmas Special Only for the latter. I’m going to bed now, before I accidentally Soil Myself…

  2. @ will.

    If you keep a low profile and don’t try to draw to much attention to yourself. I don’t think you going to have any problems. Like Hans said to Chewbacca, in Star Wars V, The Empire Strikes Back: “Fly Casual”.

    Oh, by-the-way, drop the Mister. Just call me S, you earned the RIGHT in my book. Talk to you later Will…

  3. @ Secundius.
    I’m still here Mr. S. It takes 600mg at bedtime+100mg 3x day C-3 thru C-6 wedge w / C6/7 compression;. T-7 to T-!0 wedge w/T-10 /11 compaction; L1-L5 wedge w/anterior spurring @L-4/5 disc interspace; Ostosis, Stenosis, and Foramenal damage; Plus whatever old-age brings us, and with which I am sure you are familiar also. It gets me through the day without having to take any OXY. Aside from that- everything is thumbs-up. Hope you’re doing as well as can be expected? Watching You, Pete, and Carl, giving whatever to whomever
    and thought I’d just stay out of this time, and monitor for a change. Maybe someday they’ll [the whomevers] will learn some manners. I’m gonna sit back and rest a while. You, Pete, and Carl give ’em what-for, and stay loose.
    Catch you later…. WILL

    1. will.

      I didn’t mean to pry. I’m allergic to OXY, I take on 300mg of Neutronin to make easier to sleep, it doesn’t kill the Pain, just Dulls it. 600mg of Neutrontin, would have Climbing the Walls. I have Stage Six Gout in both feet and Stage Four Bursitis in both elbow’s. You’re not going too find Stage Six Gout on the Internet, it only goes up to Stage Four. Stage Six, is associated with 3rd, 4th, and 5th World Countries Health Care. It extremely rare in Modern Nations. The last I looked the were only 5 cases in North, Central and South America. There were 6, but now only 5. If you ever encounter Stages 5 or 6, it’ll make your stomach turn. Talk to you, whenever. Secundius,,,

    2. @ Secundius:
      No offense taken Mr. S. Things happen. The initial incident RE: these injuries occurred during the Storm in Feb. ’91. Was supervising unloading
      of our equipment on a FSS #1 hold; Scud taken out right over ship in middle of bay, debris hit the deck then my right ankle and over the side of the hatch I went; 20+ feet into the hold. Tore the hell out of 2000# bombs, 25mm Bradley ammo and a few other munitions. Woke up in 85th EVAC. at King Faad Airbase, couple days later, back at campon 14 days R+R. Stayed ’til 1 July, DROS’ed home and the rest is history. Just took about 14 yrs. to take full effect, and HERE’S WILL.
      Been retired since Sept. ’05, and taking it day-by-day . Only thing bothers me to no end, is that the as# &+@$s here wouldn’t let us take that bastard Hussein when we had the chance to back then We wouldn’t be in the crap we’re in today. BUT….. that’s another story.
      My only concern nowdays is when the S H T F and someone comes onto my property and tries to deprive me of my bought-and-paid-for personal belongings, they will be carried off in pieces, after having been given an on-the-spot lesson of 12B40 engineering. ‘Nuff said.
      Don’t mean to ramble Mr. S., but I sometimes wonder if it was worth it all. Only time will tell. Gonna take a little walk while the rain is stopped. Catch you later. ( BTW, Oxy makes me a little sick to my stomach, but I keep it on the counter just in case, and then it’s 1/2 tab only.) WILL

    1. @Secundius
      Hey S,
      I got my .43 Spanish while in Argintina some years ago as part of a sell off of obsolete Mil Surplus. It was in near factory condition with the saber/bayonet original sling and 150 rounds of ammo. Was a great deal. Dad I think also got one or two over the years that turned up in or out of South America. Both were Mauser offerings.
      I’m always looking. So if you see something of interest let me know. I’ll even buy dup’s if there good traders for something else.
      Talk tomorrow. Pete sends . . .

    2. @ Pete in Alaska.

      Thanks for the offer, but I’m pretty set for that. There’s this Military supplier in Gillette, NJ. that specializes in hard to find Accessories from Vietnam-era going back to the Revolutionary War. From all Warring countries through that time periods. But, if I think of something. I’ll let you know.

      I’m throwing this out as a by-the-way question. If you know of anybody that shoots and are Wheelchair Drivers, like me. And want a custom wheelchair mounted holster, let me know. I have somebody that specializes in making them.

    3. I’m interested in the holster. What does he make? Pistol? Rifle? Shotgun?
      I work with disabled vets and do hunts with guys in wheelchairs, paraplegic, amputats. We are always looking for new gear to make it easer.

    4. @ Pete in Alaska.

      I last contacted him about 2-years ago, he’s also a Wheelchair Driver. And back then it was pistols and revolvers, let me give you his contact info.

      Scot Shearer, owner
      Scot Works, LLC.
      500 Old Onion Mountain Road
      Wilderville, OR. 97543

      the 1863 look good, You looking at the “Custom Hand Guard Model or the Standard Model.

    5. @Secundius
      Hey S,
      Yup, not your normal out-for-a-day-at-the-range shooting stick at those prices to be sure. The few suppliers of .43 Spanish are hard to find in the first place. I reload on occasion but even that is costly. I try to keep 30 or 40 rounds loaded and have maybe 60 or 65 rounds of empty brass over an above that. I have to make my own bullits and the use of the dies is tricky. The primers are somewhat unique and hard to come by as well. I have a few hundred remaining from my last find so I should be fine for this lifetime anyway. I shoot the 45/70 much more often. Current factory production in this caliber works just fine in in the old Remmy RB. … And cheaper too. Grafs has a lot of the old out of production munitions I belive. There are only a couple of companies that , for a price, one can find some of these old cartridges. There is one in South Africa that focuses on many of the older breach loader cartridges for the many Double Guns which are still used today or produced still in those calibers.
      Thanks too for Scotts contact info. I’ll get a note off to him and see if he is interested in doing some work and if so put him in contact with our procurement officer.
      I’m thinking that I need to find a way to get You and Will and Scott up to Alaska or at the least out to Colorado for a hunting, fishing, relaxing visit perhaps we should talk a bit about that off line.
      Will, would you be interested in something like that?
      Talk soon guys . . . .

  4. @ Pete in Alaska.

    I was just thing about your “Rolling-Block” question. Both Central and South America, have a “fairly” large German population. That either fled there before WW2, and soon after, too. You might be able to obtain existing 8-mil Mauser Rolling-Block Hunting Rifles from there.

    1. Hey S,
      My collecting interest is the Remington Roller 1863 design. I’m not as interested in the German Target or Hunter Rollers as I am the Remington. But I’m always will to take a look!

  5. Blow our heads off? what a moronic staement that was ,pete in only an idiot would live there Alaska, wtf you talking about sitting on a bucket blowing our heads off for ,wtf insulted you pal or peed in your wheaties,blow me hows that you dmb backwwods jerk.

    1. And still say only an idiot would sporterize a nice old carl gustaf swede mauser thats in that good a shape ,pure lunatic to do that .build a rifle in 6.5 dont hack up a carl gustaf man just herecy.

    2. Damian,
      I’m pretty sure that we’ll never know as its doughtful you will ever own one.
      That someone, such as yourself, who seems to have your substance abuse problem and anger management issue is allowed to apparently own firearms is one of the reasons that those of use who are responsible fireams owners in this country have, to one degree or another, to deal with the fall out of from the Anti-Gun goverment and uber ultra left. It’s a shame that we have to put up with you here. I’m sad to say your little more than a poster child for not allowing those with identifiable mentalheath issues to own weapons. You make us all look bad and in doing that make the fight that much more difficult. A very sad state of affairs.
      PIA is right, You can’t fix stupid.

    3. @ Damian.

      Sir, the next time you read something. Please put you “Coke-Bottle” lensed glasses on before reading. That not what was said, if I really wanted you guys to blow “Your Godd@#$%d F@#^&*g” heads off. I would have recommended far more POWERFUL ammunition than what I did. IDIOT…

    4. @Secundius,
      Hey S., let this one go. Remember “you can’t fix stupid” and that’s even more true when Meds, drugs or alchole seem to be involved and this individual isn’t worth any more of your time or mine. Just ignor this fool and his verbal vomit. He got the raise he was fishing for, no need to feed his delusions any further. I’m done here with this.

    5. @Damian,
      I’m sorry, did you forget to take your medication today? Are the little voices in your head a bit to loud today? As best as I can discern from your disjointed and confusing comment your under the misconception for some reason that there have been slanderous statements made on or about your person. In addition your addled mind and inability to grammatically write sensible thoughts in the English language have for some reason choosen to involve me in your delusion.
      To be sure that I hadn’t by mistake gotten involved in some branch thread that here that connected me with your delusion I reread the comments here to be sure. I find that there is nothing in the comments that would leed you to, for whatever reason, to vomit this obvious addled, uneducated, and very badly written and communicated comment.
      I don’t know where you got this idea to “blow your head off” or that it was in some way a comment I made, it was not. For your information and future education you should be aware that there are very few idiots in Alaska and the few that are here don’t last thru their first year. There are no backwoods jerk here, the country simply just won’t allow for it. I’m not aware of any insult that was directed at me and I don’t eat or pee in Weaties cereal or any other cereal for that matter. As for “sitting on a bucket and blowing your heads off” that’s just simply the spouting of an unbalanced mind. About the only thing that makes sense in this confused diatribe, and that I happen to agree with is that the statements and yours are moronic.
      It whould be very pleasant for those of us, on this Blog at least, if you whould take your durision and negative comments someplace else. What ever has caused this paranoid response and comment was not in response to anything I find here. Oh, and please, either stop drinking to access or get back on your meds or stop drinking while on your meds. You’ll find that things make much more sense when your in control of your life.
      It might also be a good time for whoever reads and moderates this blog for CTD/TSL to exercise there authority over their Blog and take action where comments such as Mr. Damian’s is concerned. Those of us who populat this site an a regular basis whould appreciate it.

  6. Don’t take me wrong here I do like my 30 cals, Have a ruger No 1 in 300 WM but my backup gun has always been a 45-70 just because it never fails to drop what it hits. But I experiment a bit and build guns on occasion and have found for small and medium game the 6.5 is excelent just because it has a high BC and is very accurate. I would like to see both a WSM and a WSSM in 6.5/264 the latter for bolt action pistols with a 13 to 14 inch barrel. Now to the 325 WSM this is becoming one of my favorite hunting rounds in a Browning BLR ( I prefer the feel of my Marlins but The Browning works) this round is effective and hits very hard yet it doesn’t kick as hard as I thought it would. The 200 grain round works well from point blank to 300 yds if you know how to range well, and the 180 grain bullet works to 400 yds easily. So when I head for the woods for deer these days its hard not to just grab the Browning 325 WSM BLR, even for an old guy that prefers to hunt with single shot rifles.

  7. @ Damian.

    I can bet that, try a .50-90 (.512-caliber/13x64mm) “DISClocator”. The only .50-caliber your probably likely to shot stand-up, before being Knocked On Your ASS.

  8. With all due respect guys , all great cartridges but still think the 8mm.06 beats em all hands down with a 200 grain nosler , its a fantastic wildcatted 8mm mauser on 30.06 case ,very good bc and flies straight wayyyyy out there to well beyond 5 to 600 meters and beyond with 180 grainers even farther with right scope and shooter, i use a weaver K6 on my 8mm.06 wish we could post pics on here of the rifles and cases we are examining on this bloq. Even tho this is a somewhat obsolete cartridge to only us handloaders ,it has never failed me on first shot 3 on anything it has ever hit with lots of energy.

  9. @ Damian & Ivan.

    Have either of you two, considered a round substitution of either the .30-40 Krag or the 6.5mm Remington Magnum for the 6.5×55 Swede…

    And before you tell me I’m MAD, give it a shot (no pun intended) anyway…

    1. @Secundius

      It’s a mad, mad , mad , mad , world and we who populate it recognize one of our own!

      I don’t know about the 30-40 kreig but the 6.5 mag is a fair round.

    2. @ Pete in Alaska.

      Hey, Pete. Yes it is, and it doesn’t seem like SANITY is any where near the horizon, either. Did you get the information I sent on the “Rolling-Blocks” before my server went down.

      And, NO Damian and Ivan YOUR NOT going to blow your heads OFF. Not unless I’m there to watch with a bucket of popcorn in hand. LOL…

    3. I didn’t get the “rolling block” info . . Please send again when a moment presents as I’d like to see it.

      Nope . . . I looked .. And the is no Sanity on my view of the horizon either!

  10. Agreed on the 6.5×55 swede ,very capable round, very accurate but rifles chambered in that cartridge are not cheap most times . Swede mausers bring premium prices in good shape and only a fool would sporterize an original swede mauser ,JMHO. But if i ran across a sported swede 6.5 x55 i most deff would not pass it up for right price the round will do its job .I still prefer a .30 cal minimum on large game , But once again that is just my opinion . Great choice to add my man.

    1. @Damian
      I’m pretty sure that my friend isn’t a “fool” or that anyone who knows him would consider him so. His platform was a Mil Surplus long barrel (26″) that was beautify sporterized by a Wyoming gunsmith that we both use. It you didn’t know it, at first glance you wouldn’t cop to the fact that it started as a military rifle. It looks more like a custom built big game rifle. When Barry saw it in Arts privet gun rack in his office he had to have it! That was about 8 or 9 years ago now. The thing I like about it and intrigedr me the most is the “flip to the side” optics mount with positive lock return. With the push of a button it flipped to the side an locks in place allowing for use with open sights. Very nice. I think that Art built it fron scratch.
      I’m not sure what you consider “not cheap”. Most Hi Power center fire rifle ammo, unless it’s MilSrPls, these days is or can be expensive.
      I agree with your keening towards the .30’s, they are my go-to’s as well with my favorites being the .300 WM and .338 WM.

  11. With all due respect I truly hoping to see the 6.5 x 55 Swede included in these 7 exotics.
    Unless of course it is not considered that exotic by many. Its killing capability coupled with a gentle recoil allowing trust and confidence is astounding. Yet it is so foreign to too many hunters on this continent, even after futile attempt of all tree major US rifle manufacturers tried to introduced this great round to the American public. The only explanation I can gather, is that if it was developed by Europeans it can not be as good as any of ours. Pretty dumb, right?

    1. Ivan! What a great choice! I hadn’t considered this cartridge. I friend of mine in Colorado has a Norwedigen Mauser chambered in this 6.5×55. His is sporterized and he uses it as a ranch rifle. Ranch pests like Coyotes, Pron Horn, Badger have been taken with it. It has very nice Balistics and from the outward appearance whould seem to make a fine Deer cartridge!
      You have me looking now, may be a new winter project in e offering here! Going to have to get in touch with Barry and get more info on his and how he uses it. Find out if he’s ever hunted deer with it. There seems to be an available supply of platforms in the surplus market to expierment with too.
      Thanks Ivan! This was a great suggestion.

    2. @Ivan
      And for those interested in this cartridge suggestion check out …. › Knowledgebase For the 6.5×55 Swedish
      This site is also under the first page of a Google search too.

      Ivan, if I’m reading the information correctly it seems that the 6.5×55 didn’t find exceptance in the US because the U.S. ammunition manufactures didn’t load it to its best operating specs. It seems that their loading was at the low end of theower curve and it sort of ended there. In Europe however Norma loaded to MilSpec which saved the civilian market.

      Again, thank for bringing this one to the threads attention, it’s a great suggestion.

  12. @Secundius
    Hey S, I had emailed my Uncle Chris in Tanzanea and got a reply from him this afternoon. He believes that the LM bullet for the i, is, and irs rimmed cartridges were more likly optemized for first of all, corned blackpowder when first introduced and, second, for the shorter shot envelope because of the kind of country the round was to be used in and the game to be hunted.
    Having hunted the veld and thickets where a breach loader combo double gun (like a.405 or .416 Rigby DBL with a 7.92×57 rimmed lower barrel for instance) is in its element I think there may be be the most viable. The animals hunted in Africa are for the most part all short range, under 100 meters, shots. Don’t use optics to much there. Almost all platforms are open/iron sights. So, I’m getting from this that the bad ballistics don’t have a lot of impact as it does just fine in the short range environment it works in mostly. That would include Europe’s short ranges too. In America the bullet was changed to the Spitzer and with the newer powders gained flatter ballistics and some more range. I don’t have a combo gun that’s hunted. None of the GranDa’s are hunted any more as they are mostly collectors pieces now.
    My African brace consists of my custom .416 Weatherby bolt, a Sabbite 450 NE DBl, a Holland& Holland .375 DBl, my Ruger African .375 bolt, a Ruger Alaskan .458 Lott and I always take my .300 WM and .338 WM.
    The Weatherby and Sabbite live in the gun case at Uncle Chris’s lodge in Tanzania as I have little call for them in North America and its easer just to have them there. The H&H has been retired at the insistence of my dad. This was one of GranDa Graham’s favorites and I always enjoyed hunting it. It was a custom done for him, is still serviceable but now worth more as a collector piece. So, it now sits along side others from both GranDa’s collections. The two Rugers
    are racked in Alaska at my place there as on occasion they are used up there. The .300 an .338, they travel with me. The .300 is by far my favorite and go-to game hunter.
    I’m thinking that the LM bullet shape is just simply not conducive to high muzzle energies. The pop bottle design would make me very nervous if loaded to anything near even the low end of modern cartridges tables. I can see where the breaking into two projectiles once it his the target might be useful to a Dangerous Game hunter when in the bush with Lion, Leopard. Could serve well for Eland and some of the larger horned herders although I’ve found the .300 or .338 to be very sufficient for even the large herders. More often than not I’ve paired up my .416 Weatherby and my ,.338 WinMag Tika T3 when over there. I like the .416 Weatherby or the .458 Ruger for Cape Buff if for no other reason than there is one in the breach an three in the magazine and they pack a tremendous amount of terminal energy. I have never hunted Rhino or Elephant and don’t want to. But the 450 NE or .458 would likely do well in either case.
    Crap, sorry, got way off topic here. The 7.92×57 (commonly known as the 8mm) in the Rimless modern cartridge with the Spitzer bullet has served in Africa for years. Not for Large Dangerous animals but certainly for some of the smaller somewhat thin skinned ones and many of the grazers. The less auspices “8”mm Rimmed cartridge with the LM bullet is severely limited in ballistic and range but I suspect was effective enough in its day. All in all I think it’s a design out of time with very limited use in the fields of today.
    I haven’t found any recent platform offerings in the Rimmed “8”mm. I had thought I might find a modern rolling block or the like chambered in the old “8”mm but, no.
    Are you still planning on doing something with the LM bullet? Let me know.

    Pete sends …

    1. @ Pete in Alaska.

      It make’s sense now, If they had used “meal powder” instead, it would imparted greater muzzle velocity and greater ranges. No, I’ll put the LM on the “back burner” under a low flame for now and just let it simmer. I’ll just keep “spalling” my ammunition for now. It basically does the same job, but at greater ranges. And still have the power to take down a Polar Bear at 400 to 500-meter ranges…Talk to you later.

  13. @ Damian
    Sir; RE :Tan and White; Your point being? I’m well aware of the size of Ohio deer, as I had family west of Columbus, and visited often–even hunted a couple times. However, here’s the point I was making with Mr. S. The size of that deer was not the issue; It was with what was used to take it. I’ve let much bigger deer walk on past, both in body size and antlers (points and spread). Racks don’t mean a thing to me– never have; Haven’t found a single recipe for antlers in 45+ yrs. of hunting. Also the avg. deer in this part of Ga. is around 115 -125 lbs. If you want to spend a fortune feeding them and then take a chance on having someone else harvesting it off your land or lease, go for it. For the record, my largest was 237# dressed wgt; A mule deer/ whitetail hybrid outside Thomaston, Ga. in 1980. Long story on how Mule deer got this far east– check the net for train wreck near Thomaston, Ga. circa late 1920s early ’30s. They were being shipped to some rich people on some Ga. coastal island for them to hunt. Train wrecked, survivors escaped, the rest is history. That deer was only 21/2 yrs.old. didn’t matter one bit to me. He was food. Nothing more-nothing less.
    Part of my reply to Mr. S was due to me misunderstanding his question in reference to caliber and overkill. Perhaps it would behoove you to read these replies amongst the forum members a bit more closely, and you might understand things a little more clearly. Everyone, [or just about everyone] has their own personal ‘war stories’ or personal achievements; Some try to prove themselves better than the others for whatever reason they feel they need to do so. That has never been the case with me and I hope it never happens, I was asked a question and I answered: facts are facts and that’s the whole story in a nutshell,–nothing else.
    Mr. S., If you happen to read this; Good evening to you Sir. I’ll catch you later– I’m gonna take My 600mg. Neurontin and lie down for a while. WILL

  14. @ Damian.

    I think one of the reason the Luzt Moller IS/IRS round, have a Limited Effective Range of ~300-meters. Is because they didn’t want have this traveling to far. It not good PR, when you shoot your rifle at a Deer at Long-Range and Miss. Then wind-up Killing someone at the end of the Round’s Maximum Flat Trajectory Range.

    Example: During the Last Dying month of the Nazi’s Reign, they experimented with Experimental Compression Propellant Charges. For use in the 98k Mauser’s with “Special Barrels”, as “Volley Fire” to shoot down Allied Planes. At least in one incident, a highly modified 7.92x57mm Mauser rounds’ Flat Trajectory Range was ~18,000-meters.

    Can you imagine using that round on a Deer Hunt or as a Sniper’s Kill Shot.

  15. Personally, I have been ignorant of all the different types and styles of hunting calibers and rifles…pretty much on purpose. I have always used my 30-06 or 308 for all my hunting adventures as both cartridges are tried, trusted and proven to have the power and accuracy for any game in North, Central or South America, albeit I have no desire to hunt anywhere on the planet except North America. Enjoy your hunting with any rifle in any caliber you desire…My bread and butter is certainly well known.

    1. @ Larry.

      The .30-06Sprnfld. or Springfield (7.8×63.3m) ammo is technically a Military Round and a Civilian Round. Even though you can use it to go Hunting. The .308Win. or Winchester (7.8×51.18mm), and it’s Military Cousin the 7.62x51Nato (7.82-51.2mm) technically are the same round. But in fact are tow-completely different Beasts. The .308Win. has a Barrel Bore Pressure of 62,000psi and a Barrel Bursting Pressure of 75,250psi. The 7.62Nato has a Barrel Bore Presure of 60,191psi and a Barrel Bursting Pressure of ~73,054psi. And the .30-06Sprnfld. has a Barrel Bore Pressure of 60,200psi, and a Barrel Burstion Pressure of ~73,065psi.

      While you can fire the 7.62Nato form a .308Win. Rifle, you can’t or shouldn’t fire the .308Win from a 7.62Nato Rifle, because of the difference in Barrel Bore Pressures’. “You can fir one from the other, and but you can’t fire the other from the one”. Confused, don’t worry it gets worse.

      Here’s where the “Conundrum” comes into play. The .30-06Sprnfld. Rifle can in fact fire just about any USA and British .30-caliber round. But a .30-caliber rounds not being the same, as long as the Barrel Bore Pressure, doesn’t exceed the Barrel Bore Pressure of the Primary Weapon. You’ll do fine.

      As I said the .308Win. is different from the the 7.62Nato you can alternate rifles with different magazine. Because the difference in the size of Ammo is very slight. But don’t try the same thing if you using a semi-automatic .30.06 rifle, you’ll jam the ammunition feed. Use a Bolt-Action instead. Also don’t use more than 100 or 200-rounds of .308 in a .30-06 rifle, because of the difference in Barrel Bore Pressures’. The .30-caliber round is probably The most VERSATILE ammunitions on the market, bar none. Most weapons can be Rounds Substituted, as long as the Ammo being used Characteristics are nearly the same.

    2. Thanks S….My 308 is a NM-M1A and my 06 is a Garand. Both bought new in the box. Both are “Springfield”. I have never use factory ammunition of any kind in either one. All my loads are “Mil-Spec”.

  16. @ will.

    I hope that Tan and White, 146-pound foraging “wonder” is it’s early stages of development, or it doesn’t say very much about the vegetation its grazing on.

    1. At Secundius Mr. S. If I understand your question RE: Tan&White, clearly, [ I’m still a little groggy from my meds] Let us just say that “Uncle Walt” (Disney) would be mighty P-O’d at me for removing Bambi’s relative from the scene. However, that’s what happens when my ‘little acre’ is trespassed upon; Especially by Bambi’s kinfolk. He was estimated to be 41/2 – 51/2yrs. old. Chasin’ women will likely get you killed, [ in the deep woods of SW Ga. anyway]. Catch you later—I’m gonna lie back down for a few and let the Synthroid do its job. WILL

    2. @ will.

      Don’t sweat it Will, like I also have take my “Meds”, 11-in all, 4-times a day, with the 11th before bedtime to Dull the PAIN (Gabapentin/Neurontin, 300mg).

    3. @ will.

      Sorry Will. I thought you were talking about CALF or a Young Bull/Ridgling/Rig/Micky, my bad! Strange place you state, Tan & White Fawns. Never seen on of those before, must be like the elusive Jackalope, i sometimes here about. Have to go to the National Zoo, see if they have any. LOL…Talk to you later….

  17. @ will.

    Unfortunately, there is no set standard for small arms weaponry. It varies from country-to-country, the closest is Naval Gun Ordnance. Which is rated as Small, Intermediate and Large, Small is up to an 35mm, Intermediate is form 40mm through 100mm and Large 114mm through 500mm. It use to be by weight of shot (in Pound), the problem was that a 12-pounder from a British gun wouldn’t fit a 12-pounder of a French gun. Because nobody could decide on what a pound actually weighted. In wasn’t until Napoleon Bonaparte, introduced the Metric System to the World when things started to change. One of the first government agencies formed in the United States of America. Was the Department of Standards. That’s because Baltimore had a great fire and fire departments of hundreds of miles away, came to fight the fire. The New York Fire Hoses, wouldn’t fit the couplings on the Baltimore Water Mains.

    Going back to the Spitzer-Pointed Wadcutter Round, the bullet is Hour-Glass Shaped. Limiting the firing of the round to 1-7 barrel reduces torque on the bullet, because the higher the torque will snap the bullet in half and the potential of know having two bullets, instead of one leaving the barrel in different directions. Is not something I want too think about if I’m standing off-to-the-side of the bullets trajectories. Why the German’s came-up with that bullet design is beyond me. “Spalling” the round, would have been much simpler and would give it greater range, as well.

    1. @ Merriam-Webster:
      Wazzat yous is sayin ‘PODNA?
      Having that been asked; Listen-up M-W. Here’s the deal: This is a public forum comprised of everyday common folks the ideas and thoughts of whom are shared amongst each other in a humorous, [although] sometimes satirical light, and everyone enjoys each others’ comments in whichever manner they may be constructed, construed, implied, inferred, and / or conveyed in reference to composition, spelling, context, syntax, sentence structure, or in any other fashion, manner, or style in which you may care to address.
      Listen-up #2: Take what you read in these forums, try to understand it, and assimilate it in the best of its intended presentation, and while you are at it, bear in mind ONE thing, The persons in these forums (or ‘fora’ for your [Elevated] self-sense of Grammatical Expertise), have given of themselves more than you have -or, ever will ,and “EARNED THE RIGHT” to express their thoughts in any manner they choose, and with any wording they choose so far as they do not cross [the ‘understood’] line, which is recognized by all here. THE LINE….
      Sir, or M’aam, which you crossed when you chose to abase and/or abash these forum members for their “lack of grammar”.
      Listen-up #3: There are two options: Listen in and accept the forum and its participants for what it is and for whom they are, and enjoy the time spent here, and you just might—MIGHT, learn something. You were born with two (2) ears and one (1) mouth for a reason. Use your infinite ‘wisdom?’ to figure it out. OR-, click that exit button on that smart-assed little keyboard of yours and find a forum which suits your intellect and peers with whom you might feel more comfortable, and leave us common folks to ourselves: The choice is yours, Sir, or M’aam. I speak only for myself and do not profess to speak for any other person in this forum in any manner. I do feel there are others here who are biting their tongues in restraint in order to show you some respect. The respect I feel you lost when you crossed that ‘Line’ with your question. Try to have a better day.

    2. Mr. S. I never could figure out the definitive line between large/small calibers. I’ve been fortunate enough to not lose any head of game[so far], with any caliber I’ve had occasion to use, from .17 HMR to .338 Win. Mag, .444 Marlin w/320 gr WFN GC hand loaded to 2350 FPS, and 3900+ FPE [the second -smallest deer taken]. That was with a NEF barrel on my H&R Ultra .308 based action. I’m glad it took only one shot with that one, as it killed the hell out of my shoulder and took me out of commission for a couple weeks that season.( bad thing was– it was during the peak of the rut), but that spike sure made up for it in table fare. Not to mention I hoped he didn’t contaminate the genetics of the deer herd my neighbor/hunting partner and I were trying to build up. Then, again, there was the field rat trying to get into my bucket-feeder about 25 yds. from the stand. He was too busy chewing through the lid so he didn’t see me in the stand and a 40gr. Ballistic Tip from my Mini-14 sent him on an all-expenses-paid one-way trip to his final destination.[ I had the scope sighted-in dead on @ 25 yds. and crossed the line-of-sight again @ 220 +/- yds). Good enough for the coyotes in the area at that time.
      The statute of limitations is out by this time, I guess, so I’ll say that the .17 HMR was involved in a shooting which ended with the demise of a 146 lb., four-legged, grass- browsing, corn-eating, tan and white -in- color, non-domesticated ruminant which happened to invade my personal space while I was on the lookout for some feral poodles in the aforementioned area. He joined us for dinner on several occasions, also. Strange table manners though, that one; Never spoke a word throughout the whole meal.
      I hope I haven’t confused you or digressed from your question Mr.S. But I guess it doesn’t really matter what you use or what the caliber is, as long as it does the job. I’m guessing your reference to ‘artillery’ was regarding personal weaponry. If not, I’m at a loss for proper response, as my experience was in demolition,–12B40 , if you catch my drift. Aside from some field-expedient “Ma Bell” situations involving .30 cal. induced threat neutralization, I have not led a very exciting career with the company I kept some yrs. ago.
      I’m feeling a little tired, Mr.S . I’ll close for now and catch you later, Sir. WILL.. Out.

    3. To Fellow forum members-RE: Merriam -Webster:
      If I have offended Anyone on this forum tonight with my response/outburst toward M-W, [with exception to the afore-mentioned] then I offer my apologies to you -One and All: I have never been accused of biting my tongue when I felt something needed to be said, so I did. I shall endeavor to try and restrain myself from any such future happenings.
      However, when M-W displayed such disrespect to, and denigration of, the participants of this forum with his uncalled-for remark, it struck a chord with me and I could not restrain myself from answering his question. The answer to which, I fully hoped he would not expect. I fully understand and appreciate hat everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I also feel [that] some things are better left to thought and not opinionated verbally, as was demonstrated with M-W. That is my opinion and mine only. As earlier said; If anyone on this forum was insulted in any way— I apologize.

    4. You dont have to apologise for me i thought you were spot on. I injoy reading this forum an what other people think. Iam new to the sport an all the info i can get helps.Like you said you dont like it hit the buttom go somewhere else. Thanks for your comment again.

    5. @ Merriam-Webster.

      Sir/Ms., the reason the are a lot misspellings, typo’s, and whatnot’s, are most of us have trouble seeing the small print on the screen. In my case, it’s not only that, powder blue text on a white background, is nearly impossible to see. It’s like using 10H lead pencil on a white legal writing pad.

      And for those of us, that also take medication. Side-effects can cause blurring of the vision, light-sensitivity, focusing problems, or the over-production of tears in the eyes.

      And then there those of us the just a spell simple words. I’ve seen some texts, like those who use Blackberry devices and use a “qwerty” shorthand, aka abbreviations in place of words.

      In my case, I also had a stroke. So syntax that some people take for granted, can at times be extremely difficult for me. What makes sense to me, might sound like “gibberish” to others. Sometime’s I can respond to a text message in 5-minutes or less. While other times, it might take half a night to respond to a simple question. Having a stroke is no fun, believe me. I can remember every last detail of everything I did in the Army back in the ’70’s and ’80’s, but I can’t remember a single face or name to those faces. It’s almost like being, one of those hospital characters in the movie “50 First Dates”.

  18. lutz Molliet sounds more french then German dude,and wth is he anyhow they do not hunt like we do in Germany i was stationed there in army. They do not have the hunting and gun rights we do here so wth is lutz molliet? We handloaders do not need 5.00 a shot cartridges to harvest whitetail deer in north america.My old k98 in 8mm.06 has dropped everything it has ever hit ,black bear ,big wi\hitetails,feral hogs at long ranges they drop on spot with a 200 grain nosler sp.

    1. @ Damian.

      The Litz Moller Mauser 8x57mmIS/IRS, are basically “Spitzer-Pointed Wadcutters” with and added design twist. When the hit their target, they break into two separate rounds going in two different directions. Not a “Wounding” round. Get my “dirft”. Specially designed for Maximum Stopping Power at Shorter Ranges of 250 to 300-meters.

  19. .338-06, great option for Oregon deer or elk. .30-06 necked up to .338. You can shoot a 200 gr bullet as flat as a 150 gr .30-06. Sort of a want-a-be magnum. Great all around round.

    1. @ Secundius: Mr. S; Been busy elsewhere lately; Did you ever find all you wanted to know about the Lutz-Moller cart. situation?

    2. @ will.

      Yes and no, Technically a Mauser round, but for Sporting & Hunting Rifles in 1-7 Barrel Rifling Pattern, only. So it can’t be used in 98k 7.92x57mm/Mauser Military Rifle with a 1-10 Barrel Rifling Pattern. Also, the round is range limited to 250 to 300-meters. But, I was able to fine 41-other calibers, for that type of bullet. And quite a few are American calibers. I’ll talk to you later, it’s almost 5AM here WDC. And I need my “beauty” sleep. Have a Good One, my friend.

    1. @Secundius
      You may have to give this one up buddy!
      But I gotta love your detacation!

    2. I personally use my dads old 8mm.06 , its a wildcatted 8mm mauser on a 30.06 case . so you go from a .308 diameter bullet to a big .323 diameter bullet and it loves the 200 grain noslers. Drops anything walking north ameria and half of africa i am sure ,great long range rifle as well has a great BC and that big bullet atop the .06 case is moving right on through most anything out to 600 and 700 yards with right shooter behind the trigger ,I have used most every bullet on market in most every caliber to me for whietail deer best cartridge out there big ,moves relatively fast and cuts through cold and moist air well at long range ,love my 8mm.06

    3. @Secundius
      Heard from my Mauser guy concerning the Lutz Molliet bullit design. Apparently it is still manufactured for the Rimmed is and irs breach loader cart rages although there is little call for it in manufactured munitions but there are apparently still hand loaders. He has a bullit mold for this LM design too he says. He also was insistent that it NOT be used in 8mm Mauser (rimless) munitions as it could be dangerous for the firearm and shooter. However the Spitzer bullit may be used in the rimmed cartridge. As you already know it has very poor ballistics. I’m not sure why that is exactly but it doesn’t look much better than if one were to use a slingshot. That all I got, he had a good fishing trip and got in a few extra day when the boat motor broke down while up river. He hot some very nice Peacock Bass. I have gotta get down and visit them, maybe this next year.

    4. seems to me thats overkill and destryoing meat that could be used ,my 8mm.06 with a 200 grain spitzer sp does the same job,costs me 7.00 to load a box of 20 and does not tear up good meat the idea is to deposit all theenergey into the animal not break apart ,i dont know of any ethical hunter would use a break up round to hunt deer with? just not needed and way overpriced to sat the least . And it breaks up on impact creating way too much damage to meat for practical use a deer round JMHO.overkill and unneeded.

    5. @ Damian.

      I agree with you on the over-kill aspect of the round. But in the 8x57mm configuration, it can also take-down an Elephant. And because it was designed to be used with rifles with a 1-7 barrel rifling, propellant charge is also going to be weaker. It’s a “Get close and personal” round. I prefer “Spalling” my rounds instead. But, it does low the long range advantage, kill range of a .30-06Sprngfld. and 7.92x57mm to ~500-meters maximum. But “All-In-All”, it will kill virtually anything it hits.

    6. Here in Ohio we have does at 3 1/2 yrs old over 146 lbs, a big buck here will easily surpass 200lbs up to 250 ,Ohio has been number 1 last 3 yrs in a row for big bucks in states . 146 LB BUCK would not even be a shooter buck here we let those small bucks pass on by, I prefer crossbow hunting to gun any day we only get 7 days of gun season here and lot of people drive hunt here which would never happen back home in tenn and fla, but when i do gun hunt the 45.70 i use is devastating we are not allowed to use bottleneck cases here we are limited to straight walled cases, i use my 8mm.06 right across PA and WV state lines to hunt black bear and deer at times, there they are allowed this was a slug gun only state till this season which totally sucked .

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