Legal Issues

Should We be Confronting Law Enforcement Over Open Carry?

Open Carry

[disclaimer] Recently it seems the floodgates have opened. A new day means a new video where civilians and law enforcement are clashing over open carry. I have mixed feelings over these encounters. I am completely in the corner of citizens exercising their Constitutional rights to the fullest. After all, that is why they are called rights and not privileges.

Starbucks tried to walk the centerline recently. It did not post or ban guns from its stores. The memo and FAQs to employees clearly stated that no one should be asked to leave or refused service based on carrying a weapon (openly or concealed) within the limits of the law, it asked people to stop open carrying at their locations as well. I must admit, I normally try to maintain a high level of alertness and seeing a half-dozen people coming my way with ARs slung and pistols on their hips would seem out-of-place. Until I was absolutely sure of their motives, it would cause me to shift position, seek hard cover and move my hand to cover my own weapon.

This leads me to a dilemma. At what point are we harming our cause by staunchly exerting our rights? That was the question recently posed during a pro Second Amendment discussion with friends at the range. Most of the hardcore advocates actually sided with law enforcement stating that the individuals were ginning up controversy by taunting the police and flaunting weapons rather than simply exercising their rights.

Does it Matter?

While the above text does little more than start the conversation, here is the important takeaway. Making the decision to confront law enforcement and push your rights could end up costing you your right to own a gun! The law is a complex web. Watching videos, even if the person was 100 percent right and correctly referenced case-law does not necessarily apply universally. Yes, we all have the same constitutional rights—God Bless America for that—and while state law cannot supersede your Constitutional rights, you could easily misapply the law and end up a felon. For instance, even when lawfully carrying and in a state with gun-friendly laws, there may be a law on the books requiring you to provide ID anytime you have an “official encounter” with a law enforcement officer. That makes a confrontation dangerous. Yes, the officer still has to have a reasonable suspicion to stop you, but you are taking a gamble by opposing the officer. You may be absolutely within your rights, but if you are wrong and a judge agrees you were disturbing the peace, guilty of spitting on the sidewalk, jaywalking or any other technicality, you would be found guilty. The jaywalking charge would then provide probable cause and your attempt to “exercise” your First, Second, and Fourth Amendment rights could end up resulting in a felony and loss of the rights you hold dear.

[youtube http://youtu.be/jfdEbe7e9GE nolink] For instance, this happened in Maine. Other states such as Nebraska, Ohio, Texas, North Carolina and Utah have laws that require any permit holder to immediately provide their permit and photo ID whenever they have an “official encounter” with a law enforcement officer. This does not eliminate the officer’s requirement to have a reasonable suspicion, but if you are wrong in any way… What if you are innocent, but match a description of someone who recently committed a crime in the area? I do not know, it can get sticky quick. What if you walked into a gun free zone accidentally? Cooperation may buy you some concession from LE where causing a confrontation could result in just the opposite. Then again, why have a right if it is constantly trampled?

Final Thoughts

I have high respect for law enforcement and exercising our Constitutional rights. Each person who chooses to carry takes on added responsibilities by exercising that right. If it is your choice to then press the issue with law enforcement, or feel it is some personal calling to walk into a government building to “educate” people as to your rights, please make sure you understand the risks. You risk forfeiting your rights if wrong and may accomplish little more than causing businesses to post signs excluding the rights to carry within their establishments or causing lawmakers to create more “gun free” zones that only reduce the abilities of those carrying legally.

If you could give these “Champions of Constitutional Rights” a piece of advice, what would it be? Would you encourage more of these encounters and videos or would you caution them of the potential harm? Sound off and give your advice in the comment section.

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Comments (131)

  1. If they want to show “peaceful carry” the rifle should be slung upon the back. Not hanging from the chest in an “Assault Carry” “ready” position. Anyone carries a rifle into my shop like this guy in a “ready” carry position would be drawn upon.

  2. Every day it more and more clear that this country is moving further and further from GOD, the very principles we were found around and GOD is what this country is about. GOD bless America may soon to be a thing of the past. We better wake up and get GOD back in our country and lives.

  3. Oh, and I’m all about my guns, just like you guys, but even I did a double take at the TV news the other evening, with all the young people with long guns slung over their shoulders and gear strapped on, standing at the Alamo. It just didn’t look right. Oh, I understand, and support them bringing out the fact, but it just made me wonder, that’s all.

  4. Well, with full frontal nudity, aome of us may be better prepared to repell an attack un-armed…………like a “force field.” …….
    Thar’s exactly what I’ve been trying to say, but you guys know all the big words. Sorry about your vehicle man that’s why I work with official neighborhood “Citizen Patrol” groups, to watch for, and help eleminate that sort of thing.

  5. > openly carrying an AR15, a Bowie knife or tomahawk, shotgun, and 9mm down Fifth Avenue in New York or at the Alamo in Texas is a little overkill.

    If there is anyplace you could use an AR15, a Bowie knife or tomahawk, shotgun, and 9mm it’s on the streets of New York!

  6. And Texas is not alone–April 18, 2013 Foul-Mouthed SUNY Professor Arrested After Tirade Cursing Out Pro-Life Display as ‘Profane’…“Where does it say I can’t use the f— word in public?” Curry stated to New York police. “I can swear because that’s part of my vocabulary. That’s part of my First Amendment rights.” In New York State, it is against the law for anyone “in a public place [to use] abusive or obscene language, or make[] an obscene gesture … with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof.”

    Freedom(s) are not always free. Schools prohibit freedom of speech too. I know of several instances where kids were given citations for vulgarity and I’m glad. If parents can’t control their kids, then they can be fined and inconvenienced by going to court with them.

  7. Hooray for Texas:
    Texas Penal Code.§ 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
    (1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;…(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;…(10) exposes his anus or genitals in a public place and
    is reckless about whether another may be present who will be offended or alarmed by his act…and there were others–some of which are apparently necessary.

    At least they got 2 out of 3 right here.

    I don’t usually go to Walmart unless I’m looking for ammo or guns. Then I’m racing in and right back out again. My wife’s vehicle was broken into there and all the kids baseball bags and gear was stolen. Times like that make me want to defend the car like a castle which in Texas is also legal.

  8. @ #121, Tim…sadly the courts have ruled freedom of speech does include curse words & vulgar signs. A citizen can give the finger to a cop and tell him to go “F” him or her self. I was in a Walmart the other night where a guy was wearing a black T-shirt with the word ‘F$ck You!” spelled correctly in 4″ florescent green letters across the front of the shirt. Get ready for it, the FCC is about to legalize full frontal nudity by both men & women on all day-time & prime time cable television channels. [It has been in the news the last few months, but little reported.] Over-the-air broadcasts on ABC / NBC / CBS will probably be next.

  9. Tim
    I agree 100%. However, I would like to see open carry just so I don’t get arrested simply because my shirt blew open, or for whatever reason my gun is visible. I firmly believe in concealment and not “in your face” for all waepons.

  10. There may be ‘freedom of speech’, but we don’t have freedom of vocabulary. If we take our children to a baseball game and the man sitting nearby is cursing the opposing team with explicatives, do we tell him anything? I would. We paid the same price for the ticket, but I didn’t order the a-hole on the hotdog. Hopefully you would confront him as well and tell him to check his language. Freedom of speech does not authorize us to curse in public or at LEO’s when confronted. Additionally, if you’re in a judicial court or library, you can’t barely even whisper without contempt of court or drawing attention. ‘Freedom of speech’ allows the press/media/townspeople/individual to write or protest openly legitimate stories in an intelligent fashion regardless of their stance on issues. Moving on.

    This forum is exploring individual views on open carry versus concealed carry. I think carrying openly is like ‘freedom of speech/vocabulary’. There is a time and place for you to express yourself and a means for doing it. It is reasonable to openly carry if you know the town or establishment you freequent and if you can do so without being arrested. But openly carrying an AR15, a Bowie knife or tomahawk, shotgun, and 9mm down Fifth Avenue in New York or at the Alamo in Texas is a little overkill. No doubt, it will make the wrong statement and you will be confronted by LEO’s.

    The second ammendment states, “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” I have lots of weapons–more than I have fingers and my personal favorites are a Five-Seven, PS90, and an AR57, but I use tact when I bear arms. I don’t ‘openly’ wear them to baseball games making those around me unconfortable without even saying a word.

    If we are taking a poll, I’m for concealed carry everywhere without limitations like church, school, banks, etc. I am not for open carry (in your face with the AK, AR, or Bazooka) unless you are in Uniform–and I’m not making exceptions for the man wearing a Captain America outfit.

    God Bless and good luck. My fingers are warmed up now, so I’m going to the shooting range.

  11. Comment by James / I re-read your comments and I have to say, they are more respectful than mine… Actually, I think we’re all on the same team on this web/blog site, we just like to have a little fun at the expense of others. Now, saying it like that doesn’t sound so nice. The whole point is “rights”. We have a “right to keep and bear arms” and we have a right to “post or not post a response on a blog that might elicit a contradicting response regarding a controversial concept. I’m just saying, don’t be afraid to make a comment, or explain a concept for fear of offending someone. The cost of the idea never expressed is too great to consider. Think that some dude in med school may have already cured AIDS, but didn’t press the issue because he didn’t want to offend his teacher/lab partner/ classmate/ girlfriend/ neighbor’s sister’s chocolate lab; whatever. Simple fact; If enough people read what you say, somebody will be offended; guaranteed. The idea of these blogs is to let the ideas flow, and maybe… once in a great while… we can learn something new.

  12. Please, everyone. We as licensed gun carriers should be level headed, clear thinking adults. All we do by all this bickering back and forth is show that we are a bunch of hot heads carrying guns. That is not what we want the public to think. Let’s all remember each of us has a right to carry ceonealed, open or whatever the law allows. We also have the right to freedom of speech to challeng law enforcement when we believe we are right. Whether the rest of us agree with what is being done, respect the rights of individuals to do it. We of course have the right to show our disagreement with what is being done. I may not agree with what you say, but I will die defending your right to say it.
    I am not pointing at any one individual as I for one have made remarks that do not reflect respect for your rights and I regret doing so. So, lets all show our disagreements by doing so in a level headed respectful manner.
    My apologies to anyone I may have been disrespectful to.

  13. Yes, thank you, now I have a name for it. If you’re ever driving through Tucumcari, NM, downtown is a gas station converted into a hair salon. The proprietor is a woman in her late 50’s to early 60’s, with a genuine smile and a grandmotherly nature that compels you to stay awhile and chat. Once she gets you in the chair the trap is sprung. “are you a religious man?” Yes, this is a rhetorical question. After about 10 minutes you will run through the following internal dialog; “does she have a strait razor back there. I mean, don’t all small town barbers give shaves? But this is really a hair salon for women, so I think I’m safe, but I wish she would rotate the chair so I could have a look around for the tell-tale strop.” When she tells you Beyonce is a shape-shifting demon; refrain from the obvious comment, “hey, good for Jay-Z, but doesn’t that make him a polygamist?” Your nervous chuckle will not articulate your attempt at humor. She will step to the foot of your chair so she can look into your eyes, while cunningly not rotating your chair, and tell you, “No! The demon is Male!”. Appropriately, you comment; “Well that sucks for Jay-Z” The relief you experience when you are released from the chair is the reason you to forget to look for the strop. You leave a $10 tip so she will be distracted and you can complete your escape. Proud you executed a perfect Jahova’s Witness Shuffel, you reflect on what you take away from this experience. You are thankful no blood was spilled and you are thankful for your sanity. Then you wonder how many cats this woman has at her house, and as you look in the rear-view mirror you say out loud, “that is maybe the best hair cut of my life”

  14. “Corey sounds like he works FOR the government.” /Comment by Mark from NY / I disagree, I don’t think the government is clever enough to use the lunatic ploy to smoke out “tin-hatters” (I love that term but I prefer Aluminum Foil to Tin).

  15. Corey sounds like he works FOR the government. Occasionally they’ve been known to throw a troll into a forum to flush out the tin-hatters, and they always overdo it, especially after not getting any reaction.
    He’s not getting too many bites here, and that’s pretty cool.
    NSA’s Corey is finding out we ain’t so crazy, as did a Yale law professor named Kahan who did a study and discovered Tea Partiers were far smarter than he previously thought.
    Kahan wrote that not only did the findings surprise him, they embarrassed him.
    “I’ve got to confess, though, I found this result surprising. As I pushed the button to run the analysis on my computer, I fully expected I’d be shown a modest negative correlation between identifying with the Tea Party and science comprehension,” Kahan wrote.
    “But then again, I don’t know a single person who identifies with the tea party,” he continued. “All my impressions come from watching cable tv — & I don’t watch Fox News very often — and reading the ‘paper’ (New York Times daily, plus a variety of politics-focused Internet sites like Huffington Post and POLITICO). I’m a little embarrassed, but mainly, I’m just glad that I no longer hold this particular mistaken view.”

    Corey – tell your handlers at NSA we’re not crazy, just prepared.

  16. Yeah, that dude definately sounds as if he’s on a computer. I get long winded as Hell, but I could never pull all that off on my cell phone.

  17. Sounds like you have it all worked out Corey. After all this typing, your fingers will be in great shape for the end of society.

    Best of Luck

  18. No David, i just never had a double action anything, so I’m used to sigle actions, single shots, long heavy bbls, some w/scopes, and a third the trigger weight. About 25 years ago, I bought a Colt Agent, but haven’t used it much, and recently a 1911 Girsan. I’ve been contemplating getting the Crimson Trace grips for it. Bee
    n rat holin’ some cash for it. Maybe soon. Thanks.

  19. Look, 99.99% of all Americans have given up some freedom in America. It is simple in that majority generally rules. In Texas we have laws prohibiting puplic smoking, DUI and DWI, and open carry of a handgun. Some of the participants in the forum say it is their right to open carry everything and maybe it is, but consider this excerpt from the Firearm & Injury Center at Penn, ficap@uphs.upenn.edu(Vs 2011) pg.21. ‘Police Officers Assaulted and Killed by Firearms. In 2009, nearly 2000 law enforcement officers were shot at and 8.8% were injured in a firearm assault. Nearly all of the officers killed in 2009 (45/48) were killed with firearms. Of those killed, 28 were killed with handguns. Two were killed with their own weapons, 9 attempted to use their weapons and 12 fired their weapons. Seventy five percent were wearing body armor.’

    I’m not a LEO, but I advocate for them because I have respect for the work they do. The typical videos showing ‘illegal handgun arrests in Texas’ are disrespectful and several of the cameramen have no right to use profanity or namecalling. The typical arguement from the handgun holder is that he/she is just standing there minding their own business. That alone may be against the law as appears in this legal definition:

    loiter v. to linger or hang around in a public place or business where one has no particular or legal purpose. In many states, cities, and towns there are statutes or ordinances against loitering by which the police can arrest someone who refuses to “move along.” There is a question as to whether such laws are constitutional. However, there is often another criminal statute or ordinance which can be applied specifically to control aggressive begging, soliciting prostitution, drug dealing, blocking entries to stores, public drunkenness, or being a public nuisance. All of these are arrestable offenses if a police officer chooses to enforce them.

    Will those same participants and loiterers promote hijab and wear masks while they are toting their weapons down city streets? Are they also willing to give those same rights to gang bangers and other misfits with no arrest record who appear to be ‘law abiding citizens’? The rights of others may not end just because you are satisfied.

    There is a reason we have laws against driving down a street in the wrong direction–it is to prevent collisions. I don’t ever want to read that a gun rights activist took his/her commitement too far and assualted or killed an officer and everyone reading this forum should realize this.

    Keep it concealed and enjoy the day without confrontation.

    God Bless and good luck.

  20. Bill. I don’t want to highjack the thread.. but since you mentioned getting some weapons more appropriate for self defense, if you don’t already have one, buy a Crimson Trace laser for your self defense weapon[a]. You won’t ever be sorry. Plus they have free batteries for life.. new batteries every year on your purchase anniversary date. I’ve got one on my carry weapons… best investment I’ve made [except for buying top of the line reliable guns.

    As for someone disrespecting or degrading people on-line and how it can come back to bite them if they ever have to use their weapon. People just don’t realize how easy it is to track someone who makes comments that can be interpreted as being a threat or menacing. When I had my P.I. agency license, there were computer programs available that allowed us to easily track down people posting from computers & cell phones.

    It wasn’t until just a few years ago that I learned that many computer copy / printer / fax machines leave a virtually invisible code embossed on the paper as it prints… that the FBI & other government law enforcement agencies could then use to trace the paper back to the printer manufacturer, the store it was sold at, and then the original purchaser via the warranty registration. That is how the Secret Service locates a lot of people who threaten the President & others. The person doing the threatening sometimes think they are clever by mailing machine printed threats and handling the copy paper while wearing latex gloves.

    Plus places like Walmart have the cash register receipts computerized going back years. A LEO can go in with a warrant and get the stores to pull up the cash register that sold the cell phone, computer or printer… and if it was paid for with a check or credit card.. then they have the person’s personal info and handwriting from where they authorized their check or credit card purchase. Sometimes the store will have video of the actual sale still on file. It is scary just how easy it is for Federal law enforcement to track someone if they want too.

    Finally, most people don’t know this, but according to NSA leaks.. the Postal Service makes & permanently saves a front & back side copy of each & every envelope / package sent & delivered inside the United States. They have the image of the address the letter was sent to and the return address [if any]… as well as how it was sealed or if anything else was written elsewhere on the package. I had long wondered why a package / letter mailed in my small town to a address within the same town would first be sent 150 miles away to a mail center and then returned. It was so it could be processed and recorded for a permanent record. Scary, isn’t it?

  21. David, you, James and Mark all make good points. That’s what I was saying earlier, I just wish Texas had both open/concealed for exactly the same reason. And David, your remarks should have everyone recalling what they’ve said to anyone in the past in text, or email. To me, guns have always been tools. I’ve been hunting and handloading, fishing, boating, and RVing pretty much since a teen, and I’m now sixty. I didn’t just buy a gun recently, but did buy a few weapons more suitable for defense than the many I’ve used for hunting/target shooting. I’m glad I missed the era of violent video games, and people shooting at each other with air soft and paint balls. Perhaps that technology, along with internet technologies enable many to make bad decisions.

  22. Whenever I read a post by someone who is pro conceal carry, but are strongly against open carry so much that they belittle and call people who open carry idiots and other names… I often think that if they can’t control their emotions enough to carry on a civilized discussion on a computer, then maybe they shouldn’t be carrying a gun… a deadly weapon… even if it is concealed.

    Having worked in prisons for almost 20 years, I know there are [a lot] of people out there serving long prison sentences who have seriously injured & even killed people for supposedly having ‘disrespected’ them over some issue. Especially the young gang-bangers. One of these days you might just pop-off name calling or belittling some guy in person over his opinion that differs from your own and he will feel he has been ‘disrespected’ and will act inappropriately to gain back what he feels is his self respect.

    A armed society should be a civil or polite society. Heaven forbid, if you should ever have to use your weapon in self defense, the Prosecution and especially the bad guy’s family attorney may do a computer search and look for any evidence where you showed anger or aggression toward others who differed from your personal views or wrote things that could be interpreted as a somewhat uncontrolled emotional expression. Remember George Zimmerman? The Prosecution and Martin’s family atty searched his e-mail, FaceBook, cell phone & personal computer for any evidence of racial hatred or bragging about the shooting. They also interviewed his neighbors & co-workers. So if you are gonna carry concealed or openly, it might pay in the long run to remain civil toward others when on these discussion boards. Every computer / smart phone has a unique IP address and tracking it down and locating past posts isn’t too hard for LEO’s & investigators who might one day do a background check.

  23. James P. – roger that, all. And I would like to see some way of setting things up so I don’t have to worry about losing my weapon or other rights because my concealed pistol grip made a dent in my sweatshirt. The printing thing has to go.

  24. Corey
    I watched both videos and if this is your idea of being a responsible person you need your gun taken from you. Walking around like Jesse James to let the world know you’re a badass is stupid. The police officer was most likely called by someone concerned about a gentleman walking around or sitting in public with a gun and a sword. Do you actually think Joe citizen is comfortable with an individual carrying an aresenal like that in public. What is this guy up to? Is he deranged, mentally ill …. what are his intensions with these weapons? Get real and use a little common sense. Stop trying to show you’re some sort of little man with a badass dude mind set by openly carrying a weapon in public. It’s individuals like you, failing to use just a litle common sense that is causing the liberal law makers to have reason to make noise about our rights to carry. Police officers are required to carry while off duty. Why do you think they DO NOT open carry. Use the common sens GOD gave you by not flaunting your rights in the face of people and police. Keep one thing in mind, the police are going to do their job and try to keep the public safe. Give them a little help by NOT being a smart ass showing you know the law and your rights. They know the law and they know your rights. I think both incidents you showed to be proof the police are over stepping their boundries back fired. It shows that when you do not cooperate with law enforcement, they could make you pay. Great, they showed they had rights by being smart asses and look what it cost them. Way to go.
    Most of us gun carriers do not want to open carry even though I wish Texas had an open carry license simply because I don’t want a problem because my gun became visible for whatever reason. I prefer to conceal my weapon and not intimidate people just beause I have a right to. What can possibly be a good reason to flaunt you weapon in the faces of the public? There isn’t one. There are however several reasons not to but I won’t go into naming them as being a gun owner and carrier should carry with it enough common sense to know why.
    The sooner idiots that want to show they are badasses have their guns taken away, the better off we all will be.

  25. We need to responsibly and respectfully exercise our rights, not flaunt them, not push them, not intimidate or scare. This is simply the case of small-minded people trying to feel big. In reality, they don’t give a rats fanny about protecting the 2nd Amendment. They are all about “Ooo, look at me, I’m carrying an AR-15 out in the open because I can. I’m smarter than you and I’m going to educate you.” Talk about arrogance. They are bullies. Plain and simple. And they have found a new way to bully others. They are bad apples and they are going to ruin it for all of us.

  26. The only thing I did not like in the second video was the way he expressed himself, but not everyone is an orator especially with their adrenaline up. The officer was uneducated and the gentleman should not have to explain himself. Simply knowing the law and telling the officer should not be viewed as being smartass. He followed all proper commands, even though they were illegal and asked for the supervisor. Whether the responding officer or anyone else liked it, it was the proper procedure when you have an issue with an officer.

  27. Good grief. I just watched as much of the 30 min video as I could stand.
    So what did the fine young articulate man with the glasses prove? Did he manage to “educate anybody? Was that ever his true goal?
    Or did he vividly illustrate what moronic behavior looks like and convince his state’s legislators that their laws need to change in so doing?
    This kind of help we don’t need.
    Just because a state’s constitution doesn’t specifically mandate civil behavior doesn’t remove our obligation as men to display it.

  28. Wow. There is so much bad information and untruth in these comments. But let’s first address the article. It seems the author’s main point is to know the law, and with that I cannot disagree. When you assert your rights, make sure you are legal in all your actions. Of course, this won’t necessarily stop law enforcement from unlawfully abusing or arresting you, but more on that later.

    As for IDing to law enforcement, states have different laws. If you are required to ID, then do so. In Michigan, the state where I live, there is no general requirement to provide ID to law enforcement, so I would not.

    I open carry, and have been doing so for three years. I have never been stopped yet, but my position is not to ID, not to answer any questions (not even to say I’m not going to answer any questions), and keep asking the LEO if I am free to go. If he/she refuses, I would ask for a shift supervisor. There are a number of reasons for this. I personally do not trust law enforcement. Not all are untrustworthy, but the problem is I don’t know which ones are and which ones aren’t. They don’t seem to police their ranks very well. Also, since stop and ID is not the law, I don’t want law enforcement to be able to act like it is.

    South Carolina is contemplating passing a constitutional carry law right now. That means not only will they not be required to possess a concealed carry license, but they will finally be able to openly carry. The police are against it because—in their words—someone could be walking down the street openly carrying a firearm and they couldn’t stop them unless they committed a crime! Isn’t that the way it’s supposed to be?

    Some people think open carrying is an invitation for trouble, and that every cop that sees you will stop you. That simply is not the case. Open carry is legal in 45 states, and in most states as long as you are lawfully carrying a holstered sidearm you will not be bothered. Where open carry gets notice is when people carry long guns outside of 2A or political rallies. The fact is that out of 330 million Americans and 100 million gun owners, only a handful of people do this. This really isn’t a problem. And much like open carry of a pistol, or interracial dating, maybe one day it will not be looked down upon. But I don’t try to provoke the police, and 99% of open carriers don’t as well. We just go about our daily lives protecting ourselves as we see fit. And in some instances open carry is required. Again, using my state as an example, you cannot obtain a concealed carry permit until you are 21 years of age, so if you are between the ages of 18 and 21 you must open carry. Likewise, Michigan has several gun-free zones where concealed carry is prohibited, such as schools, day cares, sports arenas, stadiums, churches, bars, entertainment facilities with a 2,500 seating capacity, hospitals, college dorm or classroom, or casinos, so open carry is your only option should you wish to protect yourself in any of those locations.

    As far as cooperating with the police, and “just give them your ID,” we don’t allow the police to search our homes just because they want to. We should be secure in our persons the same way. The police have a record of using your ID against you. Let me give you some examples.

    Recently an Ohio man was “detained” and had his pistol confiscated by police for openly carrying it. They demanded he identify himself, but Oho has no general requirement to ID to law enforcement, so he refused. The police threatened to charge him with “reckless inconvenience” and “noise disturbance.” Under continued threats the man eventually gave the police his ID. Note that they never arrested him. Had they done so, they would have taken his wallet and had his ID. They then proceeded to charge him with “obstruction of justice” anyway. He is now suing the Riverside police department for $3.6 million in compensatory and punitive damages.

    Here in Michigan, we had a LEO ask an OCer for ID “for his report.” The OCer complied. Two weeks later the OCer received a ticket in the mail for “disturbing the peace.” The OCer was able to get the charge thrown out in court, but it never would have happened had the OCer not shown the cop his ID.

    In another Michigan case, two women who were both OCing were charged with “failure to immediately ID” ten days after the encounter, even though by law they were not required to ID at all because they were not concealing. That case also took time and money to fight, all because they IDed without being required to by law.

    Let’s look at some recent events in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania has a firearms preemption law similar to Michigan’s. Many municipalities still have “No Firearms” signage up in buildings and public areas (parks, etc.) and the police are still attempting to enforce no firearms by intimidation. If that doesn’t work, they ask for ID. If that doesn’t work, they video record the participants and attempt to ID them. If they can follow them to their car that helps them correlate a license plate with the picture they’ve taken. Then they will cite them by mail and attempt to prosecute them.

    The point is that police can and will use your ID against you. We all go about our daily lives in a somewhat solitary position. If you are not legally required to provide ID, why should you? There is no benefit to you, and a very real liability for you if you do.

    As to the people above and others who say that an OCer will be the first one shot, all I can say is “I hate it when that happens.”

  29. I just want to say a couple more things after reading the comments here.

    1)Police officers are valuable people who do a hard job and risk their lives everyday for which I am grateful.

    2) “Constitutional carry” is the only form of carry that is legal. Period.

    3) A lot of the things said here are irrelevant academic nonsense. see #2.

    4) It was not uncommon for the type of patriots who understand what rights are based on the posts that make sense, to pick up the slack for the cowards who do not understand or are afraid of (see #2), prior to the start of and during the 1st American Revolutionary war. Make sure our rights are protected. RIGHTS!!!!!! NOT regulated privileges by illegal authoritarian rule.

  30. Tim
    I firmly agree with you. I would like to see open carry here in Texas only so I won’t get arrested if the wind blows my shit up and my gun is visible. Even with open carry I will not carry openly. I believe that will only make me the first target if there is trouble or make me a target so a bad guy could have my gun. Most of what I see and read are guys talking tough and probably think they can handle any situation that comes up. Listen, unless you are an ex cop, you have no idea what it takes to prevent another person from taking your gun from you. A simple blunt instrument from behind and you’re out and the bad guy now has your gun. Come on people, wake up and get real. My gun is to protect me and my family from bodily harm, not from getting robbed and definitely not to stop someone else from being robbed. You have no idea how much money it will cost you to shoot someone where it is questionable as to whether your life or another was in danger. Be wise, be careful and be certain.

  31. Many Logical and reasoned responses drowned out by comments that don’t have much thought to them. CONCEALED CARRY historically has be the “higher burden” in society and you have NO RIGHT to CONCEALED CARRY according to the Supreme Court (See Heller case…which I think is wrong on this subject). The article is about “obnoxious carry” not simply OPEN carry. It’s shameful to see so many ignorant gun owners offer their opinions and “shoot” themselves and their rights in the foot. Concealing a gun is considered shadier and more of an issue by society, it’s why it was outright banned in the past and it was also considered DISHONORABLE. I’ve followed all responses and not ONE PERSON has proven that open carry has gotten someone “killed as a target” and only anecdotal stories and goofy theories as to why no one should ever or it is wrong. I’d suggest many of you understand history of the GUN and GUN LAWS and stop talking out of your hind quarters.

  32. I am a multi-gun owner, and a believer in c.c. where allowed by law but do not get this “in your face” flaunting that some people think they must do. It’s this kind of stuff that gets the anti gun crowd even more anti gun, in my opinion.

  33. Does anyone take exception that the video only lasts about 30 minutes and that the LEO’s probably use more than double that time in getting there and then back to patrolling? There may have even been additional police officers on standby in the parking lot. If two (if not more) LEO’s are called every time there is a concern about somebody openly carrying, we won’t have officers doing more important tasks. What would happen if he walked into an Aurora-like movie theater just before the lights go out?
    How many people would stay or seriously enjoy the movie? Even if your a good guy, you just infringed…on everyone.

    Look, I flat out trust most law abiding citizens and that includes all LEO’s, but the idea that everyone can walk around with their finger (litteraly) on the trigger scares the crap out of me.

    Most of us have heard the phrase, “When seconds count, police are minutes away.” We also need those seconds to make sure we know what we are getting into and not overreacting. The goal is for personal self-defense, not necessarily the defense of others. For that you should go take the oath to protect and to serve.

    Even LEO’s keep their weapons holstered. And most off duty police officers don’t carry openly.

    God Bless and good luck with educating others.

  34. 82. Jim – well said, couldn’t have put it better.

    80 and 87, Corey – I think I understand what you’re saying. You feel that some of us are “valuing” the lives of police officers more than civilians by implying (because none of us actually said it) that it should be OK for cops to open carry but not civilians.
    Please understand that I don’t see any difference between the protection an open firearm affords a cop and a concealed firearm affords me. The fact that I insist on my right to carry a firearm should illustrate that I value cops and civilians’ lives the same.
    I believe I am more effective as The Grey Man, concealing my weapon from the bad guy, and I feel I’m being more considerate to my gentler fellow human beings by not causing them undue alarm.
    What you stated also gives me the impression you feel open carry stops an assailant from bothering you before he starts. That’s debatable – it could work sometimes, but it could also mean a mass shooter will simply take you out first (since he sees you as the greater threat) at which time you may have deprived the victims around you of their only hope – you.
    I don’t want a shooter to move to a different group. I want him to reveal himself where I can hope to make a difference, rather than shoot up a different group where no one is armed.
    I hope this all makes sense…

  35. For those of you who are opposed to ‘Open Carry’, I’d remind you that there are approx. 33 states that have some form of open carry… with or without a permit. The only times it ever becomes a issue in the news media is when the over zealous numb-nuts posting to YouTube try to make it a issue. Our goal should be to shame those clowns for their actions, not to degrade the LEO’s or put-down those of us who have decided to open carry in a responsible manner.

    Every day of the year.. all across this country, there are plain clothes security guards, private investigators, police detectives, sheriff’s deputies and general citizens wearing weapons openly. It is not the issue it is being made out to be.

    If some LEO / law enforcement officer wants to look at your ID & permit.. show it to the LEO. Most I’ve talked to say the only reason they even bother to ask to see a ID & permit most of the time is because some concerned citizen called 911 about a man w/a gun… and the LEO wants to appear to that concerned caller [who may be watching to see what kind of responds the police make] that they did their job and checked it out.

    I’ve conceal carried every day from 1995-2011, and went to full time open carry of a Glock 23 in a OWB Blackhawk Serpa II holster in November of 2012. Not once in all these years have I ever had to show my handgun permit to a officer. I’ve never had a officer show the slightest interest because of my openly carried weapon. Nor have I ever been asked to leave a business. Open Carry is a non-issue, so long as you act like you have good sense, don’t act angry toward officers or business employees / managers / owners… and carry in a good secure holster.

  36. On the “open carry” subject.
    I would like to see open carry for one reason only. If for some reason my gun was shown, either by my shirt sliding up, the wind or whatever, I wouldn’t be challenged by a LEO and possibly carried off to jail. I have no intensions to ever carry a gun exposed. That is intimidating to some people and the more we intimidate people the more ammo they have to try and outlaw guns. It’s great that people want to exercise their rights and some even challenge law enforcement. I think we should all think and act wisely by picking ouy battlefields instead of being drawn into theirs as they want you to do. The smartest Generals in the world will tell you it’s better to avoid a battle in order to fight another day in better circumstances. There’s nothing cowardly about, just smart.

  37. “the law is a complex web”. James Madison spent 10 years writing the US Constitution with a guiding focus of keeping the language so a layman could understand it without the help of an attorney. This comes from a friend who is a prosecuting attorney for a city and county in Minnesota; “As an attorney I’m not supposed to have to interpret the law. Legislative intent is supposed to be clear. If it is not; the legislative body failed to do it’s job.” Having laws that are open to local LEO’s interpretations is a recipe for abuse. The typical view of a LEO is to apply the law liberally (adjective, not a noun). That is to say, they will interpret the law to benefit them doing their job as they see it. We as citizens would read the law conservatively. Understanding this is key when dealing with Law Enforcement.

  38. I am a former police officer. I have the greatest respect for the duties and office held by any type of law enforcement officer. Unfortunately, not all police officers take their oath as seriously as they ought (that is why I am a great fan of the Oath Keepers organization). Open carry, in my mind, is not “taunting the police and flaunting weapons” but an educational process which forces police officers, command staff, and law enforcement agencies to come to grips with the constitutional basis for our right to keep and bear arms. It can be painful when an officer/agency makes a illegal arrest, they are sued, and they must pay damages but it quickly makes an educational point, “The Second Amendment says what it means and means what it says.” The police serve “the people” not the people serve the police. We must secure our rights or they will gradually fade away and be lost. To the men and women who help protect us, thank you for your hard work and commitment. We know you carry a gun to protect your life; please remember our life is as dear to us as yours is to you. We have the same right to defend our lives as you have to defend yours and that also includes the legal bearing of arms.

  39. I have thought about this subject often. I have had a Concealed Carry “Permit/License” (which even the concept of rankles me to some extent – “Constitutional Carry” is the only real legitimate system) since I got out of the military in 1998. I live in Virginia in which it is completely legal to carry openly in most areas if not specifically prohibited by “law”(again, Constitutionally questionable). However, I rarely if ever do so unless it is at some kind of planned rally (by the VCDL – Virginia Citizens Defense League which I have been a member of for years). VCDL tries to hold events to “educate” the public as to the legal gun ownership rights and I believe that education is a very important aspect of this issue. Because, as others have said, this is a RIGHT, not a government granted Privilege. And a Right that is never used will be lost. Having said that, I, personally, am not generally a confrontational type of person. I generally carry concealed for that reason AND because I do not want to “advertise” to a potential adversary that I am armed. I have no intention of “starting” a confrontation, be it with a criminal out to do me harm, or an LEO trying to do his job. Having said this, I do have grave concerns today with the “militarization” of our Police forces. Every small PD seems to have its own SWAT unit and many LEOs seem to have adopted a much more aggressive attitude towards the citizenry. Given that, any contact that I have with an LEO will certainly begin with me showing them the utmost respect. IF I am stopped while driving , I will (and have) hand the Officer my CCW “Permit” along with my drivers license, etc. He will see that I have one as soon as he runs my license anyway. I will always treat the LEO with respect. However, I also expect to be treated the same way by the LEO.

  40. a very big problem as I see things going on a lack of training of the officers, and its 99% the gov fault too many city’s and towns are turning them into revenue generators,
    they are short cutting training .cannot shoot ex NYC 8 bystanders shot by after 1 suspect killed his ex boss, years after the courts declared a womens right to go topfree any place a man can they were still arresting women undercover cops participating in crimes all this is training and supervision.
    too many departments seem to be substituting police training with ex military not that they are evil or bad but they need to be retrained to civilian way of law or requiring a prospective cop to have collage usually by very liberal schools. i believe police training should be longer than now and as a profession in itself .
    and if stopped i would not make a confrontation i see no reason not to identify as we do when in a traffic stop no sudden moves and if a major problem make official complaints either to authorities or the media much safer than from a hospital bed or jail cell . as for open carry a blanket no or yes has to be circumstances not a good idea in a large city but rural no big deal . some commented about PA the city of Philadelphia where the country began constantly violates state Constitution and state law they detain and arrest people with ccw then when charges are dismissed the firearm has been lost? they refuse the must issue rules using there own criteria rather than state law. my conclusion it politicians fault and across the country most police support the 2nd ad and the county sheriffs for the most part have stood up against the anti gun zealots

  41. I could pontificate ad naseum about this topic but I think something simpler would suffice:
    If you go looking to poke the bear, at some point the bear is going to “poke” back.
    You also have the right to burn the American flag, try it, see how well that goes over with your fellow citizens.
    Open carriers aren’t taking into account the mainstream term “Active Shooter” when they open carry any firearm. If I’m walking down the street and I see a man open carrying an AR, AK, Shotgun, believe you me, you even twitch and I’m going to blast you straight to Mars. (yes, that’s a line from the Hunt for Red October)
    Bob

  42. Those of us on the right of the 2A debate love to quote Thomas Jefferson when he said things like “Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks”, or “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
    But my friends, when arguing that we should be permitted to carry our weapons exposed to the public, we must not ignore Thomas’ advice when he says “Liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.” (Letter to Isaac Tifany, 1819)
    While our prime directive as men is to protect those around us, it is not enough; we must respect their rights as well, dutifully making reasonable provision to quell their fears. Let us therefore be effective in our preparedness without subjecting our kind and honorable brethren to needless alarm.
    Conceal your weapon.
    Furthermore, I am dubious about the intent of those who rabidly support the carrying of exposed firearms. While it’s been argued that ‘open carry’ is undignified, uncivilized and inflammatory ( sometimes intentionally so ), of greater importance to me is the fact that it is tactically ill-advised for the good guy to let the bad guy know he is armed. Let the bad guy find out on his own.

  43. I am a firm believer in the Constitution; Bill of Rights; and State Law.
    My belief is I should be an extension of State Protective Force. I am not a LEO but if a fellow Texan needed help I will be there. If a LEO is being attacked I will assist and do what they tell me to do.
    I have a Concealed Carry License and I carry every day. Texas has made it easy to become licensed and has laws on the book to carry. What are you gaining Fighting windmills in your life?
    I was in the Army for 21 years, I am very proficient with the AR family of weapons as well as numerous foreign weapons.
    Although I believe you should be able to own and have a modern long gun firearm in you trunk if needed, what do you need a black rifle at a coffee shop for? A concealed .45 ACP pistol or an accurately fired 9 mm will defeat anything you are likely to encounter at a coffee shop.
    Stop acting like our opponents and act like responsible gun owners I know most people to be.

  44. Okay my two cents worth. First off, I would like to express my deepest concerns that any American would contemplate that our servants have more rights than we do, such as the police or military. what about my discomfort being disarmed, corralled up, pushed around, given unlawful commands by OUR SERVANTS? To even discuss how we can help our servants “feel more comfortable and safe” because of our freedoms is dangerous. It’s more dangerous than the thugs hiding behind color of law as it attempts to brain soil other Americans into the mindset of sheep mentality. What we should be expecting from our fellow Americans is more involvement in expressing our rights so that eventually our servants will become used to the fact that we are FREE and unlimited in our rights and that they are LIMITED in theirs, they are the servants and we are the masters. They should be holding meetings and asking how THEY can serve us in a more non-threatening manner! I am in more fear when I see Sheriffs show up in full battle gear than I am when I see my fellow America walking down the street withe an AR. The servant is NOT greater than the master unless the servant becomes the MASTER and when that happens, you are living in a dream world if you think you are free! The battle is for the mind my fellow Americans and I strongly plead with you to NEVER stop expressing your rights, no matter how many government servants fell UNEASY!
    Live Free or DIE is how I was taught to live my life and as for me and my house, we shall live free, no matter the cost.

  45. I did not read all 70+ comments, so please excuse me if this has already been stated.

    I have worked law enforcement did security in the U.S. and abroad for the past 30 years, I respect all law abiding citizen’s right to own and carry a firearm, however, working mostly in large metropolitan areas I cannot figure out for the life of me why anyone would open carry?

    I understand if you are working in a gas station, jewelry shop, convenience store, etc. The sight of a gun on the hip may (and the key word is “may”) be a deterrent.

    But in public?

    As the author stated, after years of being very aware of people, their behavior, AND if I see a weapon and then going on high alert, it just doesn’t seem to make sense why you wouldn’t just carry concealed?

    Gun rights folks are not helping the cause by going into places where there are large number iof people, families with small kids, etc. who may have never had exposure to guns expect what they see on TV – we need to respect their point if view too and when gun owners who want to push this open carry agenda, they are not helping the rest of us who own and carry concealed – people lump us all together as “gun nuts”.

    If you are out on a ranch, carry open, but if you are in my neighborhood going grocery shopping, conceal your gun please, there is no need for everyone to see it, including me.

    I am going grocery shopping now 🙂

  46. I have no argument with any here on this Post as some are junk Science and Sheeple fearful Over Stated Bull Sh * T but The Author of this piece is a Peace maker ? or Good for you ! but you fall short in Qualifying As a Minute Man for A Militia or My Neighborhood watchmen Platoon. or true Patriot.

    We fear him who gave us law we have our reasons why we made law And Servants Cops are peace officers first not A standing Army and Enforcement Killers !

    I( have the same Knowledge to handle and when to shoot and not shoot Ideology and training even way beyond Police or State Trooper Academy’s I’m trained for 4 weapons and urban War fare And I have Never served In LE or Military, I was rejected in the Induction Center during Nam but I Qualified to become a Bounty Hunter with ex Military and law enforcement and Compete with Ex Cop and Combat vets ! yes I open carry and CCW when Appropriate the Clubs Etc.

    The American in the Video With Guts was right in Interpreting the law. the 6th Commandment Original Hebrew Scriptures was shall not Murder period, Not kill is so Falsely written and wrong. Like Romans 13 to Submit to Cesar This Earth belongs to GOD ! not Commies . So his action were warranted

    “The Only thing Necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

    Edmund Burke 1729-1797

    Take the Plunge and be brave and if legal do So carry your sword along with the word of God. I dare you And use the scriptures of the 4 Gospels as The real sword over evil and lies.

    I Live in NV we have Rights in our Constitution for OPEN carry means any weapon that is legal under NRS statutes( ww.nevadalawlibrary.gov ) before you come or live and try to change our laws ! or better yet go to http://www.secondamendmentfoundation.org and a big Metting for all and Lawyers for there 2nd Amendment Constitution annual meeting in Houston TX is coming on with Rick Perry and all SAF members are Invited to attend.

    I see TX must get over there Bad CHL Laws and Open carry laws that Construe.. Why more Vets Move to NV as real patriots.

    Please go to SAF and read the 50 State list of State Weapon Laws All a Constitution ! what is so hard for Lib landers PC correct people like Harry Reid can not Understand it is an Individual right and bad laws can be over turned !

    Obama care will not be Constituted I carry to set my Example NO!!! , MO/\,O,N /\ABE

    You and 300,000,000 can not take them with out My VOTE And God gave them to me not You, as Put Forth buy God fearing men and women of our Great history !

    NV is one of the strongest safety States in reciprocity for Shall Issue for non resident or part timers or not Permits which means you can CCW from states that agree with NV Law.. Sorry Calif, OR and WA State and others on the CCW map.

    I had a WA CHP and WA is a stand your ground state and require no safety class or training ! Right On !! Just Finger prints and they do require you to show what guns yon will carry any gun no restrictions and Hand gun is defined as preferred choice COMMON SENSE LAW. As long as we are divided on this One Issue weather open or CCW makes no difference except one thing the Guts to stand your ground for all men’s Rights and our history is violence and all Evil must be met with Force !

    The left wing Commies are Pissed they are losing there Power grab, the ones putting the fear mongering and lies in the PC World ! Why do I need to be embarrassed to do so when it is LAW that I can and not be over turned With out My VOTE !.

    I am pushing to every Legs in NV to do as AZ does Option for CHL You can Carry Concealed WO A Permit, and NV they canned AZ because for there Option to carry CCW in AZ no permit and you can still get a shall issue and other states still accept AZ, the Libtard Attitude in Carson City will be leaving in 2014,along with Our Rhino Gov.

    Our open Carry Constitution Over ride Concealed laws since 1983 when our CCW laws where in acted. Open means any weapon that’s Is legal in NV and NV has its Own laws on all Class III weapons we tell the ATF what to do ! http://www.nevadalawlibrary.gov

    I an pushing to get The same AZ law enacted Pushing for an AZ law and option to Obtain as a Resident or a No resident shall issue You can carry Concealed
    LEAGALLY in all of AZ as Open with out any permit or licensees Stated above.

    Now our trespass laws do Limit you and that is Our rights Too But Open venues can not Stop you carrying just say please leave you can not be arrested unless you go pass Signs in Gov. buildings and collage campuses and we are trying to Overturn Gun free Zone on School Tax paid property again.

    We Changed the Stupid language in our CCW law SB 76 to say any weapon to Qualify to have a permit I can use any revolver or simply any One of My Hand Guns to receive a permit not A SA and a revolver So any Gun will do for a Dum reason to carry a Gun Hidden and forced to obtain a permitis really wrong. If I can “Open Carry and not Prove ( demonstrate my Expertise) why do I need to prove and obtain a permit to hide my gun which Infringes my right to use it effectively for Self defense .”!

    Reasonable Question here ; you need to get a sheriffs card to be Qualified to Become an Armed Guard. Why do I need to have a permit and not work in Armed Security field,we are Not Deputized to carry with a permit its just a Social Politico Thing that is all.

    If you are not trained in hand to hand then A gun will get you killed if you panic or are confronted up close and personnel and I train with Hand to hand and knives also !

    We have Fed and State Laws on the Books Now Enforce them if you are evil then Tuff if you are Knowledgeable (IS POWER) like the Bible but you are irresponsible and Not Educated in Fire arms and Defense then do not carry pass your property !

    I Open carry and when Asked not Confronted in Las Vegas or where I Live Out side of Clark County I comply with Confidence and Polite respect is all you need.

    I Open carry and CCW and I fear no Man but God whom made me . is the missing Link in America as those who Fought and Died in WW II were SLAPPED in the Face buy OBUMA the Commie.

    Jesus “Commanded his Disciples to sell there Possessions if need be and buy not one but two Swords.” The Bible was not Put together yet so do not go there. JESUS was still the Living New Testament Until his Sacrifice. Q to all who do not Open or afraid to do so. Are you willing to die for America ?FOR This REASON; No greater love then this is to lay ones life down for your fellow brethren.

  47. Stopped by the Minnesota State Highway patrol at 4am on a lonely road near Dilworth, MN (improperly secured load). Told the LEO I had a loaded gun in the truck cab and would he like to see my Permit to Carry? Nope, just get your load secured better before you leave here. Got a warning and let go. The point is the LEO is not the enemy here. The enemy is “lack of vigilance”. Watch the Youtube videos with the guys provoking LEO to do something. Our purpose in open carry at this point should be to educate the public and get people used to seeing the guns out there. If some LEO does not know the law, educate him/her. No need to insult.

  48. Oh, good grief! . . . . .
    Do you seriously think it’s a felony to refuse to provide ID? . . .
    No, in most states the worst it would be is a misdemeanor, and that’s arguable. You cannot be forced to provide evidence against yourself. . . . . .

    I live in WI, and our Supremes have ruled that simply refusing to give one’s name is NOT obstruction (nor any other crime). . . . . .

    And you’re wrong about UT being an “immediately present identity documents and carry permit” state. . . . . .

    I agree that the better-dressed one is, the less likely some moron will call the cops on you, but there’s nothing saying that I can’t wear a t-shirt & sandals while carrying, even openly. (Which I do probably 98% of the time, normally with a backup cc.) And rights are not contingent upon appearances. . . . . .

    The only problems I’ve ever had (2) were with police who didn’t know the law. One time they ended up paying several thousand dollars, plus my legal fees, to settle a civil rights suit. . . .
    The other, they were quite embarrassed when their lies were not believed. It wasn’t for lack of trying. 🙁

  49. In the State of Texas you can Open Carry a Long Gun on your person,
    but to carry a handgun it must be concealed AND you must have a Concealed Handgun Liscense.
    IF you are carrying a concealed weapon and asked by a LEO for Identification you MUST provide them with your CHL, along with any other ID you may be providing.

    Under the Castle Doctrine you do NOT have to have a CHL to concealed carry a handgun in your vehicle, home or place of business – IF the business allows you to. But if you leave any of those places you best be proceeding immediately to one of the others or you are inviolation.

  50. I agree that intimidating behavior is not going to win us gun owners any national awards. What if this guy was walking around his state capitol building with a loaded AR when an “event” happened? You know, someone started shooting people in the building. As officers come running in to apprehend the perp, would you have the cajones to hold up your state constitution while walking past them with your AR? I think behavior like that is just going to confuse people and cause problems. Low profile is the way to go. This guy is just doing it for the YouTube check he gets from his followers that have 50 cals welded to their hoods.

  51. One more thing… I think some LEO’s and members of the general people get concerned whenever they see a man or woman carrying a $1,000+ AR rifle or $500+ handgun in public… but look like they couldn’t afford a pack of cigarettes or a beer. They look out-of-place. The first thought is that the gun is probably stolen.. and thus this person may be a criminal with a gun. Then there are the sloppily dressed young men who open carry their hand gun tucked into their belt IWB…. it makes the LEO’s and public think they may be wanna be gangsters. My opinion is if you are gonna open carry a handgun, then open carry all the way in full view.. using a good OWB belt holster that has a finger or thumb activated retention lock.

  52. I’ve had my Oklahoma Carry permit since early 1995, when conceal carry became legal. I carried concealed every time I’ve left the house. Then on November 1st of 2012, we started open carry. I’ve open carried a Glock 23 darn near every day… using a Blackhawk Serpa II holster. In all these years, I have never once had to show a LEO my weapon permit, nor have I ever been temporarily disarmed for “officer safety”. That includes the time I sat in a Oklahoma Highway Patrol car and got a traffic ticket.

    I’ve had a dozen or more iterations with officers over the years for various non-criminal but official reasons such as DL & insurance checks, making criminal activity reports in the neighborhood and other reasons. I’ve always informed the officer I had a permit & was carrying. But not one LEO has ever asked to see my permit.. my simple notification has always been sufficient. That includes Highway Patrol, County Sheriff Deputies and City Police officers.

    I’ve been all over Oklahoma including Oklahoma City while open carrying, shopping in large stores.. eating in crowded restaurants…and never been asked to leave, nor have the police been called. I even shopped in crowded stores during the Black Friday sales last year where people were elbow to elbow. No one ever voiced even the lightest concern over my being openly armed.

    I think it all goes to demeanor and looks. If you aren’t acting like Barney Fife.. always fiddling with your weapon or resting your hand on the butt or acting out of the norm.. you are not gonna raise concerns with LEO’s and the general public. I’m clean shaved, have a neat hair cut and usually just dress in clean jeans [no holes or tears], a colored pocket T-shirt & sneakers. If you are openly carrying a weapon, look like you just crawled out of a ditch on your belly and act like you don’t have good sense or are on drugs, then you should expect to have police check to see if you have a handgun license.

    I have no issue with open carry of handguns any time.. but I don’t agree with the open carry of long-guns in places like businesses or downtown commercial areas. Common horse sense should play into the self defense laws. Now in a period of wide spread natural or man-made disaster… then I am all for citizens being allowed to carry loaded long-guns in public for neighborhood / public safety reason to prevent looting & general lawlessness.

  53. I have had restricted carry permits in New York City from 1979 until 2006 when I moved to Connecticut. Full carry permits are only granted to rock stars, politicians & rich folks. Restricted in NYC meant I was allowed to carry unloaded in a locked box with the ammo carried separately to and from the range. When at home the gun was to be stored unloaded and locked up. If I wanted to keep a loaded handgun in my house for protection a SEPARATE premise permit was required, and that one alone didn’t allow you to bring it to a range without first notifying NYPD.
    Moving to CT my full carry permit allows open carry but it is not recommended, but I have seen a few people do it anyway. I like the ability to open carry only because of inadvertent exposure of the gun. After Sandy Hook we now have a whole host of new useless laws. I don’t feel it is wise to tempt our left wing, majority, legislators into making more restrictive laws. I don’t really understand the need to open carry even if it a my right. I don’t understand the the advantage. If I ever found myself in a situation where I needed to draw my gun I’d like it to be a complete surprise to the bad guy.

  54. This article sums up my position exactly. I love my guns & cherish the fact that I have several historic items I can pass on to the kids, as well as the peace of mind I have knowing I’ve the means to defend myself & family. In addition, nothing bezts the feeling when you see your daughter hit her first clay at the trap range & get told “Thanks, dad. I had a wonderful day.”

    Wherever I go I mix with responsible gun owners, who quietly get on with life, attarcting no attention. Yet while they seem to me to be the vast majority it is the Megaphone Mouth minority that draws attention. These are the vocal few who think their gun rights come before everything & everyone eles’. While they may be right they are also making plenty of people mad at their elbows-out arrogance.

    What I fear more than anything else is that this clique will so alienate the rest of society that we all lose. You can keep winning the battles & yet end up losing the war. But they are stone deaf to any view contrary to their own. It is this egotistical, arrogant, loud mouthed minority that will be to blame for the errosion of our gun rights, NOT “socialists” or whatever other scapegoat they come up with.

  55. When Government entities, whether Federal, State or local are able to open carry and the civilian population can not, we have entered a police state era. People have the RIGHT to be self-reliant and protect themselves and families where ever life takes them, and should not count on law enforcement to do so. Law enforcement is a primarily a reactive agency rather than proactive, unless they have specifically targeted a criminal or criminal organization. If law enforcement feels threatened by those law abiding citizens who pay their salaries and desire to open carry, then maybe they should look for another career. There are many people who stop and render aid to law enforcement officers who are being assaulted, shot at or otherwise abused by the criminal population. THESE PEOPLE should be able to open carry. Generally speaking, I assert these citizens are not a threat to law enforcement or the population.

  56. There are people saying, “Why provoke?” and “Not worth the risk.”

    I don’t feel the need to open carry a firearm.

    If you are a sane, rational, healthy and fully alert person who chooses to lawfully open carry and you do it in a responsible way. I wouldn’t want to do that, but if that is your thing, God bless.

    As far as the not provoking etc. I guess this could be true of any of the amendments. Are people saying that we should be careful how we exercise our rights lest those in power get offended and take them away?

    The constitution is supposed to make you uncomfortable. That is how you can tell it is doing its job. Being protected by the constitution means that you not only get to enjoy those rights but that that you are going to have to put up with a lot of stuff that you don’t like from others who also enjoy the protection of the constitution. Like meandering political speeches, and people who preach bs, or anything else out there that you don’t care for.

    So, I don’t open carry, but those who do that is their right to do so.
    To treat any amendment of the constitution as some delicate thing that could be taken away through legislation shows, in my opinion, a fundamental failure in our system. If we are truly afraid that the government is going to take away a right, we have already lost that right. That is like saying that while we only have the right to do something provided that we don’t ever choose to do it.

    For most sane people, conducting themselves in a manner consistent with the community standards they live is a reflex. It allows them to integrate, be accepted and form strong social bonds with the community they live in.

    Having said that, throughout our history, this county has made its most significant advances in social justice by trying to live up to the ideals set forth in the constitution, even when our society was not ready to do so.

    When people choose to challenge the status quo and change something they see as unjust that is a service not a threat. Now, if the society they live in rejects their efforts and as a result laws are passed, well those laws must pass the litmus test of the constitution and of the societal values of the community which they govern.

  57. I’m a bit stunned by the ignorance of some “gun people”. I’m also ashamed that many of you site “your rights” while freely condemning anyone who doesn’t fit into your definition of them. First: There is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between open carry…and OBNOXIOUS carry. I think that is what the article was trying to address. I can understand if you don’t live in a state that allows it that is seems odd, but it’s not a big deal in many states because it’s common place. But the absolutes and glaringly misinformed comments are what bothers me.

    If “Open carry” makes you a target then why are police doing it? Why would they allow a plain cloths detective do it? Why would they mark their squad cars? It would simply “make them a target”? HCP/CCW holders are not police…but the police do not get “extra rights” they simply have extra responsibilities. I challenge anyone to present an instance where an open carry person was shot by a criminal simply because they open carried. I can site plenty of LEO vs. Permit holders (which is shameful) who killed or shot a lawful gun owner were the LEO’s were 100% wrong and in many cases no longer police or in jail. Good police judgement is almost a thing of the past. The assumption should be that the weapon holder is not a threat. Statistically you have a higher percentage chance of a LEO committing a crime against you than a HCP/CCW holder. The assumption that a person with a GUN VISIBLE is always a threat would be just as ridiculous if you pulled everyone over to make sure they weren’t a drunk or a criminal with our any reason. It wouldn’t be tolerated and substantially more people are killed by Vehicle than guns every year. This treatment of a weapon as a “special circumstance” that negates your rights is wrong headed and gone on too long. If a LEO has probable cause they have probable cause, seeing a weapon is not a crime. I’d also say it a safe bet that “Mr. Gangster” is not walking around with a weapon exposed regardless.

    Then there is the “You have the drop on them”….crowd. Anyone with a modest amount of combat training is laughing at you! Have someone stand 10′ away and charge you….and see if you can draw and shoot….hell….try 20’…..and I bet you’re going to shocked to see how much time it takes. It’s borderline delusional what some people consider “sound advice” while passing judgement. There is so much responsibility and liability with carrying a weapon already these types of misguided comments coming from gun owners are just as bad as the “obnoxious carry” person being a jerk on purpose. It’s just as damaging to the cause.

    I’m disappointed when I see the “pro gun” community attack and condemn with such tired and easily proven falsehoods. A gun is a tool just like a knife or screwdriver. Perception is reality. Obstinate and confrontational gun owners have the same rights as people who use their freedom of speech to annoy you. Ignore them and they go away. I’m all for discouraging this type of behavior, but the rejection of open carry as appropriate in any circumstance is wrong and dangerous to your rights.

    You can’t scream “don’t tread on me!!!!!……Tread on THAT GUY!” and expect to not be the next person tread upon! I urge you to really research what a “right” actually is, I don’t think many people truly understand the concept!

    DG

  58. Whether a state has open carry or just conceal carry I believe that in order to do so one should have to get a license. That way if a person is confronted by LE all they need to do is show the license and be done with it. LEOs should then be off the hook if this person does commit a crime, which is highly unlikely. It also allows a licensed individual to ID themselves to LE if they are in a current situation like a shooting where LE is trying to figure out who is who. There are times I wish I could carry openly just for a comfort stand point. But I’m sure there are downfalls to it as well. There is no full proof plan on how all this should be handled that will please everyone. We all just need to stay united on the 2A and vote in reps that believe as we believe.

  59. When I lived on the west coast, I turned my CCW pistol over to a cop during a traffic cop. The cop refused to let me show him how it worked.

    Consequently, he ‘accidentally’ discharged it and shot a hole in the hood of my brand-new car, through several hoses and into the battery.

    I am advocating the immediate disarmament of police officers. They are more dangerous than civilian CCW and ‘accidentally’ kill more people–e.g.; the diabetic in FL, who’s girlfriend called the cops because he was since; the cop showed up unbidden and promptly became ‘frightened’ and shot him dead. Cops are responsible for more homicides in this country than all the CCWs ever could.

    People whine and cry about Aurora and Sandy Hook, while choosing to ignore that there seems to be reports of police unjustifiably shooting unarmed civilians every week or so…

  60. I live in a ‘gun free zone.’ A ‘gun free zone’ being defined as any area within 300 yards of an elementary school. I live within the 300 yard area.

    I cannot possess a firearm in my own home. There is no way for me to transport a firearm to or from my house without repeatedly breaking the law. No one can drive down the main street of my town (which is, also, a main highway between two major population centers), if they are carrying a firearm and drive by the school (which is less than 200 feet off the main road). Ergo, nearly everyone in the hamlet I live in who owns a firearm, is guilty of carrying a firearm arm in a ‘gun free’ zone at sometime or another.

    I have a CCW, but I can’t bring my pistol to my house. It, like all my other firearms, are stored in a gun safe I have at a friend’s house outside of the GFZ–half a mile away.

    The administration at the school wants to expand this area. They want to slow traffic past the school down from 30MPH to 15MPH (and extend the zone half a mile away on both sides and along the back of the school) and they get really upset because the county (I don’t live in an incorporated city.) won’t agree to either.

    Where I live, there is one cop for 250 sq miles; and a lot of that is federally protected wilderness. The ‘resident deputy’ we had for 20 years retired last year. I haven’t seen his replacement since then. Because no one is paying attention, the GFZ doesn’t get actively enforced. If the school had it’s way, there would be cops up here enforcing the existing zone 24 hours a say…

    You’re upset because you can’t ‘open carry’ (We can, without a permit, here and, interestingly, carrying into a store or restaurant isn’t a problem. If you can get far enough away from the school.) I can’t even have a firearm in my house, because of a GFZ…

  61. Open carry just causes a lot of restaurants and stores to ban arms in their businesses, creating ‘gun free’ zones. Has been happening in Mississippi a lot since open-carry was legalized. I would rather just carry concealed and let it go at that!

  62. If you will recall, at one time not too long ago, California had an open carry law but it was almost impossible to get a concealed handgun permit. Some “activists” noticed this and began carrying openly, especially in Starbucks. After several confrontations with LE’s who didn’t know the law, open carry became more and more common and more and more “in your face” of those who object to firearms. Unfortunately, some of the objectors were state legislators of the Democratic persuasion, who had majorities in both houses of the State legislature. Now open carry is against the law in California. But by god, those gun owners were exercising their legal right to open carry, while they had it.

    Open carry is an issue in Texas. I am against it in a State, like Texas, where concealed carry permits are “shall issue” and the laws are favorable towards gun ownership. Open carry, if legal, is a last resort, where concealed carry is prohibited or procedurally impossible.

  63. As a pro gunner I feel that lawful citizens have the right to carry. However common sense should tell you we don’t live the way of the west anymore. Should you choose to open carry you should know that you are going to bring trouble to yourself. I do carry legally in a concealed way I feel this should be the only way, the simple fact is out of sight is out of mind. When confronted by law enforcement you are required to comply otherwise you could be faceted with a list of charges for no reason, and ultimately may lose your right. Giving law enforcement a hard time because you think you know the law does you or any other pro carry citizens any justice. These type of people hurt us as a pro gun community. This is one reason the laws are getting worse and worse every year. These idiots that just have to walk around strapped like Rambo is redicolous. As for long guns there is no reason for you to walk around with one period this is not a third world country. Seeing this just pisses me off to no end to know that these morons think they have a right to carry whatever they want. As a pro gun community we need to put an end to this before these types of gun toting retards ruin it for the rest of us

  64. Let me say, I support e right to carry. But I want to ask. What would everyone be saying, if a cop did not stop a person openly carrying a weapon down the road to at least find out what they were doing, let the person just keep going. Now I,aging that same person walks into a school, church, store, etc.. and kills people? Where is the blame going to be? On you, the person confronting the police, or the police who everyone will say, should have stopped and at least found out who the person was? Now imagine your child or other family member was in that same location? You carrying your weapon just to confront law enforcement is way misguided and completely counter productive. How does the police know if you are a legal, law abiding citizen or someone wanting to commit mass murder. I fear that zealots, trying to prove a point, are proving it, but in the wrong direction!

  65. I have to agree with Jerry and Randy. This is how I reason between open vs concealed carry. My only other point is that you should personally be able choose without any government restriction(s) as long as you can lawfully own/possess a weapon; the choice being an individual decision and never a law-mandated restriction.

  66. I believe whole heartedly that LE should be looked at as friends of the community. I will always comply with the commands of a LEO for my own benefit and theirs as well. My only wish is that they show the same kind of respect to those of us who have a CHL. Here is my story. I’m a 44 year old man and was brought up by old fashion parents and taught old fashion morals. My wife, her friend and I were leaving a movie theater after watching a late movie. It’s about 11:30 PM. I made a right turn and a city police car turned in behind me. He turns on the red and blues and pulls me over. I haven’t been stopped since I was in my early 20’s. Back then LEOs appreciated you getting out of your vehicle and leaning against it. I had always done it and never had any complaints. When I went to step out I was told to get back in the truck. I should say that the LEO that pulled me over was a rookie that had just graduated and was still riding with a training officer. When he came up to the truck he very matter of factly ask me why I got out and I explained to him about my upbringing and that LE used to prefer that. He runs me through the wringer about where why how we had been that night. He not only gets my ID but also my wife’s and her friend’s. He explained that he pulled me over because my front license plate was missing. We all know that was just probable cause. As he went back to his vehicle to run the IDs, I explained to my wife and friend that he was just doing his job and trying to make an impression to his training officer. We all have squeaky clean records and my wife’s friend was married to a police officer, so we knew we were ok. The officer came back and asked me if I had my weapon with me. I told him I didn’t and hadn’t been carrying for some time. That’s when ( in my book) he became disrespectful. He asked me why I didn’t tell him that I had a CHL. I explained to him that I hadn’t carried in awhile and didn’t even think about it. Here in Texas by law you only have to show your CHL if you are carrying. He then proceeded to lecture me about how I should show it regardless because it makes them feel better if you do. That’s when my blood started to boil. I took his lecture and kept my mouth shut but in my mind I was saying ” look here you little snot nosed punk. The law says I don’t have show you anything if I’m not carrying. You pulled me over, ran checks on all of us, we’re all clean, spare me the damn lecture.” I have yet to ever hear of anyone with a CHL shooting a LEO. So why the lecture and why are you alarmed when you see that I have a CHL, when really you should be more at ease because in Texas they don’t just hand those out to everyone. By the way I would never carry my AR on my person in public. You’re just asking for trouble doing that.

  67. Lots of excellent observations! I appreciate the right to open carry, but this is like advertising “Get your gun here”.

    For all except Rambo, two bad guys on your blind side will quickly own a new firearm. As with driving, “Run Silent Run Deep” is safest. This also applies to NRA decals on car & house, I’d much rather under-promise and over-deliver :>)

  68. Stop! All this seems to be working perfectly. While we talk about fighting with police and they have their discussions about our ignorance we miss the fact that no one should be calling the police in the first place unless someone is committing a crime. Further more it is not the officer who is responding I am concerned with, it is the over zealous dispatch that sends an officer just because someone is seen with a gun, while at the same time hesitates to reply to a theft complaint. We had a recent indecent here in Oregon that made it to the news where they were looking for a man in camouflage walking down the street holding a rifle(get this) during hunting season!

    So if we can not educate the public that caring a gun is not a crime by caring one? How do we do it? If we continue to submit and hide our weapons in compliance how will we not be a nation where firearms are unacceptable?

  69. Making a “Stand” for your rights while on the side of the street with a LEO is very counter productive. The LEO you are being confrontational with does not have the power to revoke the 2nd amendment. He cannot change gun free zones, and he most certainly cannot change the mind of those who who are trying to change, remove, or revoke the 2nd amendment. So arguing with him and making yourself look like a jack ass does nothing but hurt our cause. I love the videos of people who open carry in an attempt to force an encounter with LEO’s then start screaming about there constitutional rights the first time a cop ask for there name. These people look like idiots with there IPhone footage and hurt our cause more then Nancy Pelosi is an NRA shirt. If you want to effect change and defend the 2nd, do it in a way that will actually work and not with antics like this. Vote, join an organization like the NRA, Visit town hall meetings with others like you, and join in the conversation on a national scale. Commenting on a site like CTD is great because it can keep all of us like minded together and allow open conversation, but it does nothing to advance our cause. Post on liberal websites, and on liberal news sites. Get the conversation going on a large scale. The only way we walk out of this with our rights intact is to bring the conversation to those who can and will effect change if they are given the chance.

  70. At age 76 with 32 years of military service I believe very strongly in the Constitution! I also with age have come to recognize the unfortunate changes in our society. When I was a young man someone carrying a gun out in the open was either going or coming from hunting, or perhaps going to the gun shop, we as kids all played cops and robbers, as a kid I often ran around the neighborhood pretending to eliminate the enemy, after all this was during WWII. Today the American public no longer understands nor respects the past and what it took to keep this country free, instead there is fear and distrust! This fear and distrust permeates the country, it leaves the police community believing that everyone they come into contact with is a bad guy, as a result the general population no longer trusts the police community to protect them but fear the police as Gestapo! Add to that the Federal Government creating great divides within the population and degrading the Christian values upon which this country was founded and made it grow. This unrest and mistrust leaves far too many with great fear! So it is with this understanding I recognize the value of not trying to push the issue and create conditions where it gives those who would wish to divest us of our rights to carry and to own firearms! Instead it is at the voting booth and vocal support that the issue needs to be addressed, for those who support gun control the very best weapon we have to counter with is our patronage, refuse to do business and spend your dollars with anyone who does not support the Constitution! If advertisers feel the pinch they will pull their ads, when the media looses the revenue upon which they depend upon for survival perhaps they will review their position. No one will say this is either easy or desirable however it has become essential! Remember,
    Money talks and BS walks, cut off their money and they no longer are a force!
    Consider this …….. The number of hunters in Wisconsin alone would comprise the worlds 6th largest army! Now add all the hunters in the other 49 states and you easily see why no country on earth would try to invade the US! But now look and see what the people in WashingtonD.C. Are trying to do! The solution…… Vote!

  71. There’s so many government oppression supporters in here I thought I had accidentally clicked on an Obamacare worship forum.

  72. I open-carry once and a while and never had a problem in Pennsylvania. I absolutely support what they are doing and would never suggest they do anything but follow the law. The Police are the ones that need training on the law for the most part. In my state you are not required to show ID unless you are being detained for breaking the law and would never suggest to surrendering your 4th Amendment rights. They have no reason to ask for ID unless it is a law in your state or jurisdiction.

  73. Man, I’ve been entertaining myself with these comments. I had to force myself to respond. 98% of the post had lots of wisdom and insight; not to mention common sense. But Leon, you got to chill out. All I got from your post was misguided anger. You need counseling bro. It is people like you that the anti-gun people are looking for. To use you as their reason why this should be a gun free nation. Good job buddy for ruin it for the rest of us! And for Marc #25 post; if I was a robber, I’ll just wait for you to leave and then rob the store. Great logic there bud. Other wise have a safe day everyone. Ha ha lol, laughing myself on the way to the gun range.

  74. Getting a CCW in the state of California is not easy and I intend to keep mine.Giving my ID and permit to an LEO at any time for any reason is not a problem.They are just trying to ascertain who they are dealing with and if you are wanted for a crime.Most of our officers are pro CCW and causing a confrontation for no reason hurts law abiding gun owners everywhere.If you carry a gun you have a responsibility be calm and respectful of others.That is the only way we can educate the anti gun people.Don’t get me wrong I will never give up my Second Amendment rights,if they come for one of us they come for all.That being said the only way to convince anti gun people is to be sure of your facts,calm,strong and deliberate.Ranting and raving only hurts our cause. John

  75. My first thought is why do you want to bait the people who’s job it is to protect you? Yes, it’s legal. Yes, police officers are human, which means they can be bullies. But, at the end of the day, when you need to call 911, they are the ones who respond to it. And, they are the one who will be filling out the paperwork that will show whether you fired in self defense or out of aggression.

    My second thought is that if you are going to insist on hassling the cops, remember that most places have laws on the books that allow you to be held without filing charges for a period of time. Do you really want to be cuffed and stuffed because the cop you pissed off decides you may be a “factor in his investigation” and it takes a day to be released when you had nothing to do with it? Then you have to go through the hassle of getting your gun back out of impound. Yeah, how’s that going to look on “youtube”?

  76. No man is above the law and no man below it.

    ~Theodore Roosevelt
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    ~Benjamin Franklin

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    ~Edmund Burke

    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    ~Margaret Mead

    When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the socialists, I remained silent; I was not a socialist.
    When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
    When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn’t a Jew.
    When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

    ~Pastor Martin Niemöller

  77. A requirement for a CCW permit is unconstitutional. Any police officer who stops any US citizen simply because they are carrying open or concealed is the one breaking the law not the other way around. A criminal is the person who draws his weapon most likely from a concealed position to rob or murder someone, not the person who simply is carry a weapon. That would be like harassing someone for have a mouth that is not concealed by a veil because of an imagined belief that person might yell fire in a theater.
    ( http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html ) go read it! You will see under the various articles there are provisions for the United States to provide for a militia and common defense. You will also read on this official website that the three articles of the constitution were not ratified because of the lack of rights for individual people as according to Thomas Jefferson. It was finally ratified after ten amendments to the constitution were made, and these amendments guarantee rights of individual citizens and not government branches. One of those is the second amendment.

  78. Imagine you in an open carry state and are exercising your constitutional right to do just that. You’re walking thru a dimly lit area on night and from the shadows a not so law abiding citizen comes up on your six with a cheap, “Saturday night special” pressing the center of your back and relieves you of your $1300 comp .45 proudly displayed on your hip. Congratulations! You have just upgraded a less fortunate to nicer quality hip metal. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise? I will keep my weapon legally concealed, thank you, even if SC should allow open carry.

  79. i live in Pennsylvania and open carry all the time… never have been stopped or harassed. then again we are a open carry state

  80. Educating the public can happen in several ways. I “suspect” that most people that are approached by an individual with an AR15 hanging off their shoulder in the street, are not going to hear the message intended. I asked some people I showed these videos to for their opinion. Their attitude was that only a person with something to hide would be uncooperative with law enforcement. I explained the intent behind these encounters and their opinions didn’t change. Much like what was alluded to in a previous post, we should be aware of the potential impact encounters like these may have on the voting public. Good intentions or not, we may swing public opinion in the wrong direction.

  81. I have a friend who is a 20 year retired Police Officer, currently full-time teacher (police related), and a Permit to Carry instructor. We were up at the local bar with a bunch of golf buddies (not carrying) and had a few beers under out belts. He was spouting off about a guy he met who was open carrying and then open carry in general and how it was not a good idea. If he were still a PO and seen a guy open carrying, he would draw his gun at low ready, move the guy to the wall, disarm and identify. I told him then he would be violating his 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. He claimed display of a firearm is reason enough to search and it was proven by appellate law many times. I knew better; I told him, actually the exact opposite is true. Over and over again the courts have determined Lawful Open Carry is NOT sufficient reason to search. He disagreed with me, saying it is the right of the Officer to do what he needs to do to go home at night. I told him I didn’t think 330 million people needed to give up their rights just because he couldn’t figure out how to determine if a person is a threat. That said; Minnesota does allow a PO to ID a person carrying a gun. It does not allow for a search.

    If, as the article suggests, the lawful carry person resembles a description of a criminal thought to be in the area, the Officer should have his gun drawn and approach with caution. He would have every reason to do so. As the OC guy is complying with the Officer, the PO should explain that he matches the description, etc. The guy carrying would never have an option not to show his ID. It would be pulled out of his pocket after his gun was removed. If I were a Cop, I would do this because a threat exists. OK, so a Cop can lie, but if he is caught in that lie, the OC guy should file a complaint with that local law enforcement agency and ask for an apology. I’m saying, ask the local law enforcement to train their officers that lawful people are out there and should not be harassed.

  82. WOW.
    Many on here are so brain washed, it’s hard to believe you are a free thinking person living in the US of A. Years of assimilation by any all forms has corrupted your free thinking minds. How Sad. Our forefathers wasted their time coming up with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights to guide all for a future of prosperity for this great country/nation.Sad that we now all live in a land full of SHEEP, who willingly line up for slaughter. If someone told you to jump off a building or a bridge….you just might do it. That’s how far all of us have fallen. Note I said all of us. No longer can an individual think freely or act freely, despite that our Constitution would allow us to do just that.

    Democracy at it’s finest, Liberty at it’s best.

    “Ain’t Freedom Grand”………………I now have my doubts.

  83. Reading all of these posts just made me smile. Very few of you understand the law. Colorado is an open carry state except where prohibited. Colorado is also a will issue state. Crossing jurisdictional lines into a jurisdiction that prohibits open carry will get you arrested. You are required by law to present identification to law enforcement when asked. If you don’t want any road rash, the best thing to do is to comply immediately with a LEO’s commands. Be polite and let them know you have a weapon and where it is. LEO’s job is to enforce the laws for the jurisdiction in which he/she works and generally have no interest in your personal views.

    Having said that, I will remark that open carry invites trouble and not just from LEOs. Most states now are will issue and concealed carry permits are easy to come by. It is much better to carry concealed and I for one will only carry concealed. I do not know all the jurisdictions where open carry is prohibited and my 2nd Amendment rights are not being infringed by carrying concealed. The main thing is just not be stupid about carrying a firearm. Using open carry is an invitation to confrontation and if a LEO gets attitude guess what is coming back–attitude.

  84. I got my first conceal carry permit in Iowa back in 1983. At the time, in order to get the permit, you had to take a course, shoot on the range, and be counseled by the County Sheriff, and the FINAL VERDICT was 100% up to the Sheriff. They didn’t have to approve you if they didn’t want to.

    After being counseled, the Sheriff told me that I appeared to be OK and he authorized my permit. During our conversation, he told me that CONCEALED CARRY MEANT “CONCEALED.” He said that if you keep your weapon hidden, you’ll never have a problem.

    From a tactical standpoint, displaying your weapon lets any malicious person KNOW that you are carrying and guess what? You’ll be the FIRST ONE they “take out” in an incident. Like my martial arts instructor told me, “don’t wear a Karate T-Shirt or Golden Gloves T-Shirt/Jacket because you’re giving away your method of fighting. The ELEMENT OF SURPRISE is always a HUGE ADVANTAGE.

  85. #25 Marc. You possibly make a valid point about the convenience store line but let’s continue the thought. The BG is up on meth and sees your gun. Do you really think he’s going to be afraid of you or is he just going to shoot you first? You might think you’re fast and a great shot but if his gun is already out and pointed at you, you’re not in a good place.

  86. Possibly the very first case of an activist group vs. law enforcement over open carry was a federal court case, Banks v. Gallagher No. 3:2008cv01110. I represented the insurer for the police department. The incident occurred in May 2008 when an armed group met at a local restaurant. The case became very complicated while the Court waited for the Heller and McDonald decisions from the U.S. Supreme Court. Maybe in the days of the Old West it wasn’t unusual for folks to go everywhere with a gun but not in today’s society. A group of men armed to the teeth and a woman with a video camera is going to concern fellow patrons and draw the attention of law enforcement, as planned. The entire exercise was counter productive for 2nd Amendment advocates. Average rational gun owners may be lumped in with the more radical element. Let’s not jeopardize our rights by failing to use some common sense.

  87. I live in Texas where currently we dont have open-carry. If we did have open-carry, I personally would choose to carry handguns concealed. I simply think it is a better idea. I dont feel we should need a permit to carry long-guns in any manner but unless there were open hostilities in the streets (war, civil unrest, etc.,) I personally would choose to carry my long-guns discretely also, for example; in my vehicle, however I would still wear my handgun on my person unless I felt the need to deploy the long-gun. I do not believe in “permits”; I believe the 2nd. Amendment provides the right to carry at personal discretion as a basic right for all law-abiding citizens. Permits in my opinion is something that is given out to authorize the exercise of something that is normally prohibited, for example; the possession of fully automatic weapons, 40mm grenade launchers and ordinance, etc., when/where otherwise they are outlawed. I do not feel it is a good idea to confront/taunt law enforcement in any manner over anything. They have a difficult enough job to do nowadays under the most calm of circumstances and dont need, nor does society ever benefit from, extra attention having to be paid to check out an enormous amount of folks just to see if when carrying a weapon(s) they are doing so lawfully. Finally, I feel that the right to carry (or “wear”) a weapon, large or small, should exist for all law-abiding citizens regardless of whether the citizens actually decide to do so or not, and/or whether each individual personally decides to carry/wear openly or not. Again … the 2nd. Amendment in itself already provides for this, as this is the law that provides for a “right” and NOT a privilege.

  88. Well, after reading most of these I find myself wondering why someone who has exercised his/her rights and has a carry permit, would want to challenge a LEO and possibly tick the officer off. Why not just present your DL and permit so he/she knows and understands you’re being cooperative and probably not hiding anything else. He/she doesn’t immediately know for a fact that you’re not a felon so why compound the problem? I guess I don’t understand. Aren’t we supposed to be on the same law-abiding side? In MN, we can open carry but frankly, all it does is make other people nervous. Why would you want to do that? These may be the same people that might someday be voting for or against your right to carry or even to own a gun. Why give them a reason to vote against you? Another reason I won’t open carry is why in the world I want to make myself the first target or possibly precipitate a shoot-out? I’d much rather have the bad guy not know I’m carrying, then the advantage becomes mine.

  89. My, my, Chicken Little the sky IS falling

    High speed, low drag, stay under the radar. No need to engage,just stay frosty and stealthy.

  90. I’ve read the above commits and find some very well written and some down right disturbing/insulting. As an LEO in Texas our law being mischaracterized by Bill is sad. If your weapon prints, or your shirt comes up due to reaching for something you are not a felon. As for us have been breed to a particular mindset that to is false, the diversity within our ranks is off the charts with so many points of view it’s crazy. As for the former NCO that’s wants others children to die, you sir are an extremist that causes the issues and need a phsych eval. I am a life member of the NRA, Oath Keepers, GO of America and a staunch advocate of the 2nd amendment and will be there to defend your right to have your weapons when anyone comes to take them without cause, foreign or domestic. But to make statements against children or outright misrepresent the law is the problem. Which means some should re-evaluate their mindset and position.

    Semper Fi

  91. Misinformation in article about “permitting” in Ohio. There is NO PERMIT for gun ownership, purchase or transport needed; only for concealed carry, But the law is clear on transport , the firearm must be unloaded and in a secure container with ammo stored separately and no loaded mags. Open carry is plain stupid if you’re not hunting in snake bear or hog country. When walking down the street with a big ol’ 45 on your hip why intimidate people? Now your acting just like a gang banger shoving people out of their way on the public sidewalk.

  92. I agree with the author on the point of some inciting controversy. At the same time I can see the point of the open carry folks. They may view it as “showing how ignorant some law enforcement officers and agencies are” and how quick some are willing to trample on 2nd amendment rights.

    I’d like to add one other example of situations in which the pro-gun side is figuratively shooting itself in the foot. Youtube. Look at how many videos are on YouTube of people, average people, dressed in tactical gear with a tacti-cool AR-15, and are attempting to dispense advice on how to “clear a room” or some other act best left to bad TV drama. Through-out the video these people keep referring to their “weapon.”

    STOP IT!!!! It is not a weapon. It is a firearm. A firearm is nothing more than a sporting good, hence the terms sporting arms and sport rifle. It is only a “weapon” when employed in such a manner, much like a hammer is a tool until it is wielded in an aggressive and offensive manner at which point it becomes a “weapon.” These videos only fuel the left’s image that gun owners are all unstable, John Rambo, want-to-be’s. Besides, the information is usually bad advice and the quality is usually laughable. Still, it is ammunition for the left’s argument. So again… STOP IT!!!

  93. “Yes, we all have the same constitutional rights—God Bless America for that—and while state law cannot supersede your Constitutional rights, you could easily misapply the law and end up a felon.” – You seem to want to play both sides here, the constitutional and the unconstitutional. Until we get right with the American people and accept the base language and intent of the 2nd amendment that “That” is your carry right, and permit, all the infringements including poll taxes and Jim Crow lesser legislation out there on the books (no matter how wise or well intended) has to be terminated to meet the standard in the US, your discussion of when or why it might be wise to carry, open or not, is marred by many false realities.

    This is no different than the ACA attempting to take your property for failing to deliver it to a private insurance company, or a local government attempting to take your property to give it to the biggest car dealer in the state. The language of constitution IS the national standard every American has a right to expect be respected by everyone. When we say “well, a little slavery, a little infringement, a little troop quartering, is ok. the next thing you know we are no longer America but a corporatist oligarchy with two sets of citizenship, and two sets of laws. In many ways (not just concerning the 2nd amendment) you’ll see if you look avenues we’ve gone down as a nation that tell us we’ve ignored the Bill of Rights that serves as the key to the constitution, sometimes for decades or centuries. We should be concerned about respect for the 2nd amendment, for it and other civil protections and responsibilities of our society are not being properly maintained under our basic social compact. This is not acceptable in the US and EVERY American has a RIGHT to expect the law be respected.

  94. I feel that there is no better way to teach people about our rights. I see it the same as organizing a voter drive. Sometimes, you just have to go out and do it. Unfortunately, some people have to loose their rights so that the rest of us can keep them. Freedom isn’t free. I, for one, am terrified of open carry. I fear the day that I might have to do it for what ever reason. I just glad somebody is already doing it.

  95. Correct me if I am wrong but my feeling is that open carry is to protect you if you are carrying concealed and the wind blows your jacket open for a moment and someone sees your concealed carry weapon.
    I Massachusetts we have had several cases where people lost their gun license and had all their gun confiscated because that happened. In one case an LEO caught a glimpse of a gun being lawfully carried under the arm, the guy was wearing a jacket but when he bent forward the wind and that action allowed the LEO who was standing in just the right position to glimpse part of the grip, busted.
    In Springfield a man in a three piece suit was carrying under the shoulder and a LEO “thought” he saw a bulge. He got busted and taken to court where the Judge railed about this is not Dodge City we don’t need ANYONE carrying a gun, cost him a ton and I believe his license.
    In Mass if you lose you License to Carry you lose your right to have a gun or even empty shell cases (they are considered ammunition in this state). A LTC doesn’t allow you to carry only to own a gun, you need a “No Restrictions” LTC to carry concealed.

  96. # 5 said: ” In your face intimidation by gun….to the public or LE is wrong.”
    But wait, isn’t this the Same tactic that LEO officers use everyday? Isn’t their uniform and gun at side a form of intimidation to anyone looking to commit a crime? LEO use open carry as a crime deterrent in public so why is it frowned upon for a normal law abiding citizen who wants to protect himself and those around him to do the same? I’d be willing to bet that if was standing in line at a convenience store open carrying, that might change the mind of the guy in line behind me who was thinking about robbing the place. The gun plays more of a role than a blue shirt and a badge.

  97. Anyone on this thread ever poked a bear? Probably not, and if you did you weren’t around long enough to share the tale.

    It is important to remember that if LEOs considered all the people they dealt with as “good people” or “law abiding citizens” we’d probably be draping flags over coffins at a record pace. They are, after all, EMERGENCY responders. Meaning any call they respond to or situation they come upon has the potential to be dangerous. Not only for them but also to the public at large. Remember, LEOs don’t get called to respond to baby showers, cookouts and pool parties. They get called to respond to and actively patrol against individuals perpetrating crimes, i.e. CRIMINALS. I imagine most of their job in the first ten minutes after arrival is to assess the situation. Ergo, it would behoove any truly law abiding citizen to make this process as easy as possible. The smoother things go for the LEO, the more favorable your outcome will most likely be.

    Giving anyone an unnecessary amount of difficulty while they are trying to preform their duties as an employee while likely get you no where. This goes for all jobs in all fields. But especially LE as these guys are attempting to protect the public.

    A good analogy would be a person speaking loudly in a movie theater. Sure, the first amendment protects your right to free speech; but screaming at the usher or getting in his face will likely not change the outcome of you being escorted off the property. Not to mention you’ve made a lasting impression on the other movie goers with your tirade.

    The same logic applies here to LEOs.

    When restraint and courtesy are added to strength, the latter becomes irresistible.
    -Mahatma Gandhi

  98. Why do SOME feel the need to push their RIGHT TO OPEN CARRY? The best word I can think of that fits the person,”Knuckle Heads”. Their purpose is what blinds them to others. They are searching for conflict, and when they get pushed back they yell FOUL.
    Most have no training and they think it’s a game. This can lead to someone getting hurt. Because of my training I do not want anyone to know I’m packing.
    In my city it has reached a point of conflict. The mayor had to make a law to bar Open Carry in any government building or town hall. These Knuckle Heads would show up at any and all functions with their guns gleaming. As the saying goes, you can’t fix stupid.
    I can only hope that some training comes into play before someone gets hurt.
    The ones in power are looking for it.

  99. I see no need for confrontation with law enforcement. Most officers I know encourage 2nd rights. If true law abiding citizens would do more to work with enforcement rather than force confrontation things could be much more civil. These people get paid peanuts for what they do on a daily basis and catch nothing but hell most days. These folks have families and property to protect also. They don’t make the laws. Everything is relative. Open carry, concealed, do what’s appropriate in your situation. Drawing attention to yourself defeats all purpose if you’re truly concerned about your right to personal protection.

  100. As a 30 year police officer and a firearms enthusiast, I have to say that most of the officers I know are ardent believers in the 2nd amendment. I firmly believe that law abiding citizens have a God given right (it’s not a government given right, the government only guarantee’s that right) to possess, carry, and utilize a firearm to defend themselves or a third person. I’ll go beyond that, I believe that an able, law abiding citizen has a responsibility to defend himself or whomever else may be in life threatening danger. I have two sayings I love to use, “when seconds count the police are minutes away” and “911: government sponsored dial-a-prayer”.
    All of this being said, I’m not sure about the open carry movement. While I don’t disagree with it in the least, I don’t know if it’s the wisest choice.
    First, from a tactical standpoint allowing a bad guy to see that you’re armed makes you the biggest threat, and the very first one to get shot. It also allows you to become the target of some bad guy who knows that if he can take you out he has your weapon. You don’t have eyes in the back of your head and can’t watch 360 degrees constantly, no matter how good you are your weapon is still vulnerable if it’s exposed. I believe that carrying concealed gives you the element of surprise, the tactical advantage over open carry. Some may argue that open carry discourages the bad guy from even thinking about victimizing you, and in some situations it may, but I always carry concealed off duty even though I know officers who don’t. I just don’t want to advertise.
    Second, and I think just as importantly, lets face it we have a massive move by the anti-gun left in this country, fueled by anything they can sink their teeth into and use (or twist around to be misused) against us. Worse, the media is pretty much wholly owned by the anti-gunners, and mis-reports anything they possibly can to try and alarm the people who are in the middle or more impressionable. We can’t afford to give them anything they can use to try and fuel more anti-gun sentiment.
    How about the Denny’s that kicked out the on-duty cops because someone complained that they were armed? The officer recently who was told not to bring his daughter to school in uniform because his gun “drew complaints”? Did you know that just last week the NFL initiated a policy not to allow off-duty officers to carry, even concealed, at any NFL game? It’s not just the law-abiding citizens whose rights are under attack, the left wants to disarm everyone except the criminals. We’re in a fight for our basic, God-given rights here. I think we need to pick our battles, and fight them logically. Maybe the open carry groups are right, but I’m not sure about that.

  101. Well said, Tom and Hank. Rational thinking cops don’t want an un-armed society. They juggle to keep their screens clear now. They understand an armed public is a polite, rational public. But, they are bred to a
    Particular mindset in their profession.

  102. Okay, we’ve certainly stirred this hornet’s nest. Cops being gun advocates or gun grabbers can be very tricky. Unfortunately I know of two cases where they came in an confiscated a persons firearms for no good reason and one never got them back. The other one did but it was after thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees and court costs. The cop across the street is on our side but I wouldn’t force the issue unless you really know the individual well. What I do know is you don’t want to piss them off because they’ve got a lot more power than most people realize. “Out of sight is out of mind,” seems like a good policy to preserve the tranquility in our lives. What do you think? Hank

  103. “If you could give these “Champions of Constitutional Rights” a piece of advice, what would it be? Would you encourage more of these encounters and videos or would you caution them of the potential harm?”

    First I’d like to thank them. I thank them for at least taking the time to be an advocate, to get off their duff and try and create awareness and change.

    But I do not agree with their methods. I choose to see the Cops as potential gun-rights advocates that these protestors are overtly alienating.

    I prefer to make an effort to bring these potential gun-rights friends and advocates well into the fold. Letting them know that they have friends out there in this crazy world.

    I’ve had speeding tickets. But I’ve gotten warnings much-much more often. If those Cops chose to, they could have inconvenienced the heck out of me. Even though I broke the law, they chose to allow me some room at their own discretion. I find that kind of behavior a behavior I would emulate. This Gun-rights issue is a perfect place to do so.

  104. Damn Leon, go ahead and profess your rights to the first responding officer. But speak quickly to make your point, and be aware that he’s been visually asessing you, before he gets close enough to even hear you, and when he gives a command, you’d better hear and obey quickly. There’ll be time to make your point, and your immediate compliance, behavior and attitude, determine what happens in that 30 seconds. I work with cops, and feel as at ease with any of them, even the ones I don’t know, as I would any trusted friend. No need to get deffensive. That won’t help you, with Police. I believe you may have missed James’s point.
    In response to Dave’s question, I certainly wouldn’t encourage more people to walk into any business office wearing an AR around the neck, with a handgun strapped on openly, whether they’d double checked the statutes, or not. The focus of the objective quickly becomes lost in a guy behaving in distaste, to prove a point. That guy was lucky, in the first video. He should not calculate the same reception, everywhere he trys that sort of thing. We as gun owners have a responsibility that goes beyond knowing when to use a weapon, why, and how. Guns are no more than the tools, the vehicles. When emotions enter the picture, that can’t help promote our cause.

  105. Leon;
    I appluad you wanting to stand up for your rights and I will be beside you all the way, but this is minutre crap you’re making way too much of. He is just a cop that can nail your ass with any of a dozen violations and then your resistance could turn into a felony charge. Are you really sure you want to spend thousands of dollars to make to a liberal judge that will see the who;e thing against you and you gained nothing at all. Pisk you battlefield like a smart soldier Leon. You do battle in their back yard you will lose.

  106. There is no question that the 2nd amendment is a right that we need to protect and I, for one, will fight for this right to the very end. What people who carry guns have to understand, however, is that we do not live in a vacuum. People need to ask themselves what point the are trying to make when they decide to “exercise” their 2nd amendment right. Yes, you may absolutely 100% in the right in wearing your gun in the public and refusing to provide an LEO with your identification,, but what about all the other people who are watching you? What they see is a person who is behaving in a obstinate manner. Do these people know what your intention might be? No they don’t. All these people know is that there have been mass shootings and, right or wrong, the AR-15 is the rifle claimed to be the weapon used. Seeing a person carrying an AR-15 and refusing to cooperate with an LEO only serves to cause people to become more fearful. When the time comes for them to vote on some new gun law that further restricts our rights, they will remember your actions, however legal they might have been, and vote against our rights. You do not educate people by scaring them jut like you do not win the public over by in-your-face confrontations. If you engage in this kind of activity, then you will lose the public. The overwhelmingly important concepts gun owners who carry must remember is that people are fearful of gun violence, people do not know all the subtleties of gun ownership laws, and that these are the people who vote on laws. These realities make an in-your-face approach one that will backfire most all the time and the best approach is to use less confrontational methods to teach the public.

  107. Leon, sounds like you’re advocating the violent overthrow of the government. I suggest you take up residence in Montana somewhere, throw away your license plates, and see what eventually happens.

  108. James, in your #12 you say “insist on making a challenge to a law officer”. The whole point of the 2A is that we, the people, ordinary folks, have a right to carry to defend ourselves. If a LEO “challenges” us about that, he is violating his oath of office and the 2A by doing so, which negates his authority to do anything he thinks his badge permits him to do that he also thinks we ordinary folk are not permitted to do. That would be my answer to him or her if I was so “challenged” by one of them. The fact that he has judges on his side is a consequence of how those judges got their jobs: elected by sheep like you, or appointed by political office-oath-breakers in the cases of federal judges and the US Supreme Court justices. The Traitor-in-Chief we currently have, and his predecessors from all parties, appointed to the USSC people who agreed with their ideologies and who stood a reasonable chance of getting confirmed by other ideologues, aka US Senators, who themselves were elected largely by sheeple as well. Just because the whole system is rigged to perpetuate the wrongdoing and the wrongdoers’ getting off without penalties thanks to their offices does not excuse the wrongs that have been done or remove the requirement that we, the people for whom the Constitution was written, come to its defense. The need for us to do so is greater now more than ever ! It has been proven time after countless time that voting corrupt officials out of office only gives a different crowd a chance to taste the forbidden delights of the intoxicating power of high office, so they in turn stray from their campaign promises and end up just like their predecessors, sooner or later … so another method must be found to hold them accountable. The decisions they make affect our lives, so let them suffer the way they cause us to suffer. Once we cave and allow the 2A to be obliterated, the rest will quickly follow, and then the war will begin, if not sooner, and instead of typing we’ll be too busy ducking, shooting and reloading to do anything else !

  109. Well, Garrett Fisher, I am neither one. If you insist on making a challenge to a law officer just to prove a point that we all know is a fact, you’re an idiot. Someday you may understand why when you lose you rights to even as much as look at a gun.

  110. You all make good points, and Dave, what you wrote after the second video, and in the final comments is spot on, and worth reading repeatedly. I guess when it reads firearm, it encompasses anything legal, long or short. All our dear neighbors in California however, are about to loose the right to even posess a mini-14, M-1, Mrlin Camp Carbine, Remington 740, 742, 750, and quite a few other common hunting/sport weapons, after this Saturday, along with many other gun rights. Their Gov. Brown has a pile of such bills on his desk that if he doesn’t veto by the 13th, will become law.
    My only complaint about any of this is that Texas is concealed only. And if the gun imprints on your pocket, or you reach overhead or bend over and any part of it shows, you’re suddenly a felon. I’m all for educating, and I think a good way of that in maybe a subliminal way, is to allow a gun to show, without flaunting it in people’s faces. If we just had concealed/open here, it would make dressing for the day much easier, and more comfortable. It would also relax the attitude of those around us every day. You don’t wear your underwear outside your pants, Hell everyone would take notice. Eventually someone would call it in, and you’d find yourself being ordered to take off the underwear, and slowly step away by an officer. But, if you bend over and the Haynes tag and stripes show, no one gets alarmed. Yeah, I know I’m weird, but that’s my analogy.

  111. Having heard both sides of the issue here’s my two cents worth. Pushing a point, even if you’re right, has a tendency to piss people off to the point of their wanting to get even. I teach English As A Second Language to adults at night since I retired. Out of my group of students, of which I would guess there are only three or four who are here legally, they’re generally hard working and very law abiding. I tell them to blend in and behave themselves.

    One young man had a lowered, noisy, obnoxious little dark red Honda with windows that were probably tinted darker than they should have been but what really got your attention was a huge, (Illegal), lettered decal across the rear window that read, “I love Sinaloa.” He pulled out of our parking lot after school and turned left against a no left turn sign. He’s not the only one I’ve seen do it, but a cop who’s usually staked out there saw him and stopped him. Of course he didn’t have a license or insurance so they ticketed him and impounded his car. I cost him about three grand to get it back and pay the fines.

    He bad mouthed the cops after this but I shut him up by explaining that he’s not the only illegal here and that he’d pushed a sore point with some folks. If he’d been smart about his situation there’s a good chance that it wouldn’t have happened. The rest of the class agreed with me and I think you can draw a lot some similarities between both cases. Would you rather be right or hassled? When you draw attention to your self people remember. What do your think? Hank

  112. Billy … you seem to imply I am advocating “intimidation”. I am not, just the unfettered exercise of a Constitutional right that too many people for too many years have diluted, under the smokescreen of “public safety”. I am sworn, as a retired military NCO, to “support and defend the Constitution of the US against ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC”. That oath did not expire when my ID card changed color. The list of “domestic enemies” is growing every day, in case you been missing the news reports.

    James, your “cooperation” simply enables the further infringements of our 2A rights by allowing the infringers (LEO’s in this example”) to get away with their violations of your rights and the rights of all other gun owners.

    It is time a line be drawn and we 2A defenders stand up for our rights, and use our lead launchers, if need be, to do what our forefathers did to the oppressive British in the 1770s … only this time we’ll have to do it in 51 cities, with our own personal assets against what the oppressors have bought with our taxes.

    “Smart ass”? No. Fed up with the government’s BS at all levels? HELL YEAH !!!

  113. I don’t feel I am giving up my rights in any way by co-operating with Law Enforcement. They are doing a job we pay them to do and I believe they are sincere in what they do. They are not wanting to take your rights away, simply keep the peace. Co-operation will get you much further than reisitance ever will. I will absolutely inform the officer I am holding and supply him with my license right away and I will surrender my fire arm to him if he askes me to do so. That goes a long way with you getting your fire arm back and go about your business. So, why try to prove a point just because you want to show you are aware of your rights and want to prove something. You could always be found guilty of something and possibly lose your right to carry your weapn or possibly even own a weapon. Think smart, not smart ass.

  114. I repeat. In your face intimidation by gun….to the public or LE is wrong. We must stop this kind of activism. Go about your business and live your life. Sometime your (our) rights end where the rights of others begin.

  115. Any challenge to carry, open or otherwise, by anyone, is an “infringement” of the 2A, and by LEO’s, a violation of their oath or office, since that oath includes the Constitution, and so are the “target-rich environment” laws which have gotten school kids killed. The folks who enacted those idiotic laws need to have their own children attacked, to see what their own actions have done to the rest of the population. If they want to risk my kid’s life, their kid will be sitting right next to mine, and they will face wrongful death charges in court if their law allows my kid to die, and the sentence I’d demand is their kid’s life, and the life of the judge’s kid if he rules against me when I appeal!

  116. To some extent, I believe that a low profile is better choice. There is a time to stand for what you believe. Having another gun free zone created in your honor, is counter productive. The right to carry, has already been recognized. So why bring it up again, and a give a judge the chance to decide for you on a personal basis? So I believe that in this case, less is more. After all, the idea is to be able to have the right to defend yourself, family, or anyone truly in danger of loosing their life. It is also convenient being a Wisconsin hunter, and wanting to carry while wearing multiple layers of clothing. We’ve got something good going here, why provoke, authorities or the general public regarding this sensitive subject. We all know, that if you want to invoke an argument, start with religion, politics, the 2nd amendment, etc. Just have your credentials in order, and if asked, present in a positive but respectful manner. It will probably come back to you “respectfully” in most cases.

  117. If you see three tatooed gang banger types walking toward you with big shiny pistols on their hips (assuming they have carry permits), is your first reaction going to be, good, they’re exercising their constitutional rights, or yipes, what are they up to.
    I live in Texas where concealed carry is still the law, thank heavens. You have to show your permit if stopped by a LEO, failure to do so gets your permit suspended for 60 days.

  118. Here in GA there’s no formal requirement to disclose that one is carrying during an “official encounter” but I think most would agree it’s a good practice. You never know the officer’s frame of mind in advance.

    Also, a GA carry permit allows either open or concealed carry and most folks I know always carry concealed. It’s just not worth the hassle if a “concerned” citizen calls 911 when they see your sidearm in the grocery store. Further, GA law allows a business to ban firearms from private property and may ask the “offender” to leave. Failure to do so will bring a trespass charge that will not affect the carry permit. Most folks I know just don’t patronize those businesses or leave their guns in the car if they must patronize the business.

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