Concealed Carry

You are Carrying Concealed, Should You Intervene?

Attacker grabbing young boy

Sadly, Chicago often leads the news due to the extreme violence perpetuated by a few but blamed on law-abiding gun owners. In fact, it is far too common for the report to include 20, 30, 40 or even 50 shootings over a holiday weekend. I know that seems strange—so many shootings in a liberal bastion of gun control and some of the strictest laws in the nation…

Man in tan shirt and pants with his hand holding onto a gun in his waistband.
The decision to get involved in a dangerous situation is very personal. Not all situations demand your assistance.

However, the reports come out again and again; the same tired narrative is regurgitated over and over. The media seldom stops to think and realize people who do not follow laws are perpetuating the violence. Perhaps they just do not care. I am not sure what the numbers will be for this Halloween weekend, but one shooting has already made the news. The difference? This time, many of the people are praising the gunmen.

The Event

It was business as usual Chicago’s southwest side. Then, around 7 p.m., an armed man walked into the Agencia Mexicana convenience store. The armed man, later identified as 55-year-old Reginald Gildersleeve, produced a handgun and announced his intent to rob the store. Gildersleeve then pointed his weapon at a female employee and forced her to the back of the store.

At some point during the robbery, one of the patrons took action. The unidentified patron was licensed and legally carrying a concealed firearm. Several shots later, Gildersleeve lay fatally shot on the floor. He was officially pronounced dead at 7:10 p.m. according to police and the Cook County medical examiner’s office.

Gildersleeve was no saint. He had an extensive criminal history, including prior arrests for robbery, according to reports from the Sun-Times. To this point, most reading this are probably cheering for the “good guy with a gun.” I know I am. But let’s not forget, our unnamed hero or heroine could still be prosecuted.

Police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said, “We’re looking at it as a self-defense issue at this point.” Guglielmi said the case is under review by local prosecutors, but the preliminary details suggest the customer was not at fault.

That’s good news for the good guy (or gal) with a gun, but a sobering lesson for those of us who carry concealed. Just because you are in the right does not mean it won’t cost you tens of thousands of dollars to prove it. So, where do you draw the line? When do you get involved? Let’s look at another example.

Attacker grabbing young boy
You witness a kidnapping in the local park. Is it ok to use deadly force?

The Non-Event

September 2015 in Detroit Michigan – another armed citizen exercised what most would consider poor judgment. In this case, the Michigan woman was legally carrying concealed like the customer in the first scenario. However, the woman reportedly made the decision to shoot at shoplifters fleeing a Detroit-area Home Depot store. This certainly does not meet the standard of firing to protect your life or the life of others. Nor does it carry the same protections.

The woman did not hit anyone, but managed to flatten a tire of a fleeing SUV. The suspected shoplifters were arrested several days later. Her decision to get involved earned the woman a court case at a minimum. She pleaded no contest to a charge of reckless discharge of a firearm and may be sentenced to up to 90 days in jail.

These cases are night and day comparisons, which leads me to the point. There are many cases that are not as black and white as these; they fall into the gray area that exists somewhere in between. Are you prepared? I mean bravado aside, if you carry, have you truly spent enough time thinking about if and when you would draw your firearm? Where is your line in the sand? Will your firearm function properly? Your ammunition? When faced with a situation, it is far too late. If you have not, well, that’s how people start popping off rounds at shoplifters and land on the wrong side of the law.

Where is your line in the sand? When would you get involved? Share your thoughts or advice in the comment section.

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Comments (214)

  1. unless it is family people are not morally obligated to get involved and in fact, their first obligation is to not get involved because the family unit comes first, and their death or injury would be a burden. Saying that, I would feel inclined to get involved only if I can do so in an un involved way. I mean really, If you come across someone who is in the process of committing a murderous act, it is probably going to be in a secluded area or a private area with the perp, a victim, and the innocent armed random person who just happens to be in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. Yeah, get involved in an un-involved way, and then walk away.

    1. Yarply you have confused legal responsibilities with moral responsibilities. Sometimes they are the same but not always. One may not be LEGALLY required to get involved whenever an innocent person is being assaulted or worse but MORALLY we are ALL our brother’s keeper, so to speak. I believe to stand idly by and watch a helpless person being harmed while the means to successfully interfere and stop a tragedy is tantamount to committing the atrocity itself. How would you feel to discover that an armed person stood by and watched a member of your family get car jacked, taken hostage, assaulted or worse? yes, it would be nice to have assurances that not getting involved would guarantee the safety of one’s self or family but that is not the case. The perp that you watch attack another person might be the same one to kill a member of your family later. Consider (on a larger scale) the consequences of nations doing such things. If the US had not joined forces with the Allies how different would the world look today? As Americans we have traditionally lived our lives fearlessly doing what was right and what was necessary to ensure freedom and the safety of peoples everywhere. If we don’t do that then we may as well crawl on our bellies until we die of natural causes.

  2. I am a native Southerner who has lived in the suburbs outside Chicago for almost 9 years. Like the writer of this article I have watched in horror the seemingly endless shootings that take place in Chicago. There seems to be no end in sight to this senseless violence. I do want to call out the writer about his comment that all of this violence is being blamed on law abiding (presumably gun owning) citizens. Nothing could be further from the truth. The shootings here in Chicago are widely acknowledged to be related to gangs which seem to have quite a grip on some neighborhoods here in the city, so much so that citizens are afraid to come forward with information that will help to solve some of these crimes. I am not aware of anyone blaming law abiding citizens for this carnage. Let me finish by saying that I am a gun owner so don’t bash me as being anti-gun. I very much enjoy shooting and would (and do) encourage anyone to take it up. Again, no one blames this violence on law abiding gun owners.

    1. Dear Friend Challman,

      In general I do agree with you. Sane, thoughtful, INTERESTED folks agree with you and me. Your observations may well apply to the majority of “average citizens” in the State of Illinois, and even to those in the greater metropolitan Chcago area. However, they absolutely do NOT apply to those who RULE those domains. Law-abiding citizens who own firearms, as well as law-abiding sporting-goods stores, have been loudly villified by public officials and media folk as a major factor in violent crime for the past several DECADES. Practically every Mayor of Chicago, Police Commissioner of Chicago, Cook County Sheriff, Cook County States Attorney, Speaker of the Illinois House, President of the Illinois Senate, Governor and Lieutenant Governor of Illinois, Director of Illinois State Police, Congressman from Chicago districts, and U.S. Senator from Illinois in recent memory has been openly hostile toward law-abiding citizens who own firearms. There have been a few exceptions, and some recently-elected officials do see things more clearly. Illinois has even obtained CCW in recent months!!

      Please note that even when the violent crime is described as “gang-related”, it is also characterized as “gun violence”. These officials, and the mass media/local media, then state or imply that the violent criminals acquire their guns from the legal merchants and law-abiding firearm owners. Furthermore, they blame the guns for “enabling/making” the gang members act violently. Since they blame the firearms as the “root cause” of the violence, they desire to eliminate ALL firearms. They claim “every illegal gun starts out as a legal gun”. If I had a nickel for every time I have heard “we must get these guns off of the street” on a news story, I would be a billionaire.

      For an excellent perspective on this issue in the State of Illinois, may I recommend to you http://www.isra.org , the website of the Illinois State Rifle Association. The members and leaders of the ISRA have truly been THE driving force for Second Amendment issues in Illinois.

      By way of disclaimer, I am a Life/Endowment Member, and was for a time an officer, of the ISRA. I was born and raised in one of the “collar counties” just southwest of Cook County. I attended public schools through high school, then did college/medical school/residency at Northwestern in Chicago. After a stint as a university-employed faculty doc, I returned to my hometown area to practice for over twenty years. Two years ago I moved south, and now practice in a State which has historically been firearm-owner-friendly. But even here, there are folks who want so desperately to “do something” to help stem the violence and death, that we must stay on our toes. As a wise man once said, “Eternal Vigilance is the price of Freedom.” Please remember to keep your eyes open, your senses keen, and your powder dry!!

      Thank you for your support of our Freedoms!!

      isradoc

    2. Yep, the screaming, emotional progressives who always literally scream like they are in pain: “WE MUST DO SOMETHING.” “Something is always, always, always to either further restrict, register or confiscate weapons from law abiding citizens. This is magical thinking and is heavily employed by fascists everywhere on the globe. While they will never admit it, in States in America where there are strict gun laws and in countries overseas where guns are outright banned, there are plenty of illegal guns.

    3. I don’t know what news you watch, I hope I can find a news source that accurately reports on these types of issues. Most so-called main stream news sources will use gun violence to push for more gun control with an emotional argument. Saying we have to do SOMETHING! “Something” is inevitably taking more gun rights from all citizens. This is always done with the magical thinking of the progressives. It goes something like: “If we take guns away from everyone, there will not be any guns at all, and there will be no gun violence.”

      Of course we all know that if you were able to magically eliminate all guns everywhere, then the next most lethal weapon will be used. In many countries with strict gun control knives, clubs, etc. are simply substituted. When you look at the total violent crime statistics that England will admit to, they are higher there than here. In addition, there is an on going scandal in England where crimes are not classified as violent in one police district or another so as to make the statistics seem as if the local constabulary is doing a good job and the upper ranks can get their bonuses for keeping everyone safe.

  3. I believe everyone else has the right to protect themselves as we CC holders. If they choose not to, it is their right. But it is my right not to be their personal defender. It’s best to call 911, keep yourself and your family out of harms way and wait for the police to come. However, if I or my family or personal friends with me are in danger of life and limb, I will use my weapon, but ONLY to stop the threat to our lives. If the threat flees, even with my personal property, let him. Lives are not worth material things.

    1. Well put, very succinct. This mirrors my own personal policy. I am not an LEO. My personal defense weapon and actions are for me, my family’s and any good friends near me when the ball goes up. PERIOD. I live in Texas and it is legal to use deadly force outside your house on your property and in the defense of your property. Like many of us here, I am not a cowboy type and will let a miscreant take my stuff and let 911 and my insurance carrier take care of the aftermath.

  4. Dennis very true. The measure of standard will change per area. One can expected to be held to the same standard as a police officer, higher, or maybe a little lower. This all depends on the circumstances of the situation. I believe most CCW holders do not really what to take a life, but will do it to protect themselves, family, and others from an armed assailant.

  5. Appreciate your words Joe. I assumed it was obvious to all that no one can speak with authority outside of their “jurisdiction” or area of expertise, including the LEOs that I expect to only advise people as professionals in the field. I am surprised at how many posts were made and how many have never thought their actions having a multitude of implications including legal, moral and ethical among others. drawing a weapon of lethal force should never be taken lightly and it should be a rarity. Aiming at any person should be done only if prepared to take a life and not as a show of force only. I would use mine if I or my family are threatened or to clearly protect human life from an imminent threat. No matter how confident I am that I am justified, I will still expect a myriad of legal stones thrown my way.

  6. you know we have the cart before the horse, why is there a penalty for those who react to someone else’s bad decision. The bad decision was someone who decided to take or touch something that was not theirs. I am pretty sure all of us who carry and conceal and not looking for trouble but wanting to stop trouble if it happens

  7. I took a class on the use of lethal force, taught by a law enforcement officer at the local Cabela’s. He clearly stated that, in Washington state, the use of lethal force is legal ONLY to protect human life. Shoplifting alone does not endanger human life. He said in Texas it is legal to use lethal force to protect personal property, but that’s not the case in most states. Be prepared. Know the law. Protect yourself (from harm and from prosecution).

  8. i carry insurance through Texas Law Shield to represent me in the event I have to use my firearm. Covers both criminal and civil legal costs. That being said, you have to use your best judgement. If I drive up to my house and i see a group of guys loading all of my stuff into a truck, I will call the police and get the vehicle and suspect descriptions. I am not in danger and my stuff is insured. I may be covered under the law, but that is not going to help me in a civil suit when the opposing story says, “how do you compare the cost of Chris’s TV to a human life”. It only takes 50% of the jury to agree with the plaintiff. If my family is in the house at that time, that’s a different situation. If i drive through a parking lot and see someone holding a person at gunpoint, I call the police. The guy with the gun might be a CHL holder who someone just tried to carjack…bottom line is, I don’t know the situation and drawing my gun may only put myself or someone else in danger.

  9. Dennis, I doubt if to many are or have taken the bar exam. As far as experienced LEOs, it should be from the jurisdiction you are carrying in. Otherwise it does not mean crap. Many states have CCW, but intervention and shooting scenarios can change per incorporated area. Colorado is one of those states. To intervene with deadly force in any incorporated area or county you must meet or stay within their boundaries or guidelines to do so. These boundaries or guidelines will be the same for their police officers, but stated in the SOP/standard operating procedure of the department and reinforced by state statute. Otherwise it falls on the Castle Doctrine of that state.

  10. So, we shouldn’t help anyone for any reason without being prepared to face highly expensive legal action in order to prove that you were in fact helping someone. Got it.

    1. Max, I wouldn’t get too concerned about all the advice coming from these armchair lawyers on this site. Their advice is as worthy as their bar exam scores. Experienced LEOs and true judicial experts would be worth the time to read but I notice not many, if any at all, gun toting lawyers have commented.

  11. No offense to anyone, but there seems to appear a promotion of liability here with some form of notary. Whether you acted unjustifiable in an incident, the “burden of proof” is up to the state. In civil matter the “burden of proof” is on you that you acted in a respective manner accordance to the law.
    When promoting liability, you either live in a state with weak self defense laws or do not know them. If you live in a state with weak self defense laws, you should consider promoting stronger self defense laws similar to the “Stand you Ground Law” & “Castle Doctrine” of Florida, Missouri, or Kansas to your legislators.
    Yes there are cases were individuals have been arrested, but in most of these cases according to the evidence the individual was operating outside of the threshold of self defense in a escalated situation that had been occurring over a period of time without police intervention and there were some spontaneous incidents.
    Do I carry self defense insurance? Sure do, but it is not needed in Kansas were I currently live at. I travel to Illinois. Illinois has a weak self defense law. Illinois CCH course teaches the threshold of criminal and civil liability in the self defense class based on the do and do not shoot policies.
    There many defense tactics pistol instructors, who do not recommend any civilian intervention into a crime occurring around you and not against you unless you are trained to do so. This does not apply to all scenarios, which they will inform you of scenarios.

  12. As a former Marine, a former defense attorney and former prosecutor, it always, still, dismays me when stress is placed on the consequences to liberty or fortune, when discussing any live fire scenarios. I agree with most of what Matthew said above: there are well-defined criteria for deadly force, and those should be adhered to. However, I would go farther and say those criteria shouldn’t be adhered to because they are “rules,” or because they will save you from legal/financial problems. They should be first learned, then adhered to, because they give a useful matrix for action for people who are almost always surprised when an event of potential deadly force arises.

    When it comes down to that moment, my only metric is to do what is just and to embrace the sanctity of life. Shooting someone for a property crime is not just. Plastic bawbles do not warrant the extinction of any person. Shooting them because they are threatening deadly harm to an innocent is just. Defending my own life against unjustified violence is just. Being just also requires practice, however. Lose any tendency to jump to conclusions. Be observant! RM commented above, correctly, on a host of situations wherein you or others misperceive reality with catastrophic effects.

    If you are going to kill someone, I hope to hell you’re not thinking about the legal and financial consequences as a factor in your decision. I hope the only thought is whether the killing is just. If it is, and necessary, then do what you have to do.

  13. Here are just a few things to ponder before you jump in to help a person that you perceive is in danger. Remember, perception is not always reality and the law has some serious consequences for acting inappropriately. Are you legally in the right and will a “reasonable person” (a legal concept) agree you were legally in the right?

    So now you just used lethal force to stop the threat what now? Do you render aid to the perp or let them bleed-out cause that’s what they deserve? Do you call 911 and if so, what do you say and how does that affect your 5th Amendment rights? You’re standing over the perp holding a gun on them when police arrive – what do you think the officers responding are going to do?

    What about another Good Samaritan CCW holder – will you now look like the criminal and will he shoot you and claim self-defense protecting the perceived victim on the ground you just shot? What will late arriving witnesses think when they see you holding the smoking gun on a bleeding victim laying on the ground? Was the guy you shot really placing the person you are protecting in jeopardy and will that person testify to that or was it just a prank you interrupted? Will the witnesses testify that you shot that nice looking young man and kept pointing a gun at him while you watched him die a painful death while he cried for help? My experience with witnesses and juries is it’s a crapshoot what they will think.

    These are just some of the realities of using lethal force. Better think about and visualize all that can happen and how you will deal with it BEFORE you engage. Or as Dirty Harry would say, are you feelin’ lucky?

  14. OK, depending on where you are, it might cost you thousands, maybe tens of thousands of dollars to prove, in court, you were right. BUT….if your intervention involves the threat to an innocent person’s life, then you must decide now if an innocent person’s life is worth up to all you own or even jail time. What if an armed man was taking your child to the back room of a convenience store and I was there armed? Would you want me to respond? Or would you rather that I carefully weigh all the possible legal ramifications and then turn and walk away because I was more concerned about my wealth? God help this nation!

  15. Totum, In previous comments you advised people to enter into a dialect with the hostage taker to establish a mindset, and profess to been a police tactics instructor. I disagreed with you. My belief is the CCW/CCH holder should only response in accordance to their training, and you disagreed with that on the realm of basic handgun training.
    Anytime an individual steps outside of the realm of their in the use of deadly force generates liability. Claiming to be a police instructor, you of all people should know this. The famous last words of any police office involved in the use of deadly force, “I WAS ACTING IN ACCORDANCE TO MY TRAINING.” Any statement past that will or may generate criminal and civil liability.

  16. Steve, Well. For one thing you have grouped things. In many states basic handgun training has to be completed before taking the CCW course. The course has moved up to defense tactics. To engage a shooter with a hostage into a dialect to determine the behavior/mindset is beyond the scope of the average civilian. The dialect is established by individuals who are trained /have skills in forensic psychology, because the the receiver of the exchange will most likely miss interpret the exchange

  17. Totum, I do not know were you live. Civil liability for shooting someone in self defense is prohibited in many states. The CCW is protected by the Stand Your Ground Law and the Castle Doctrine. Anyone who conceals and carry should know the extent of the self defense laws in the state/s they carry in.

  18. I am a SC CWP holder as is my wife. I am also a former service member. Our ‘line in the sand’ is a threat to life or of bodily harm. I was taught / trained to if possible break contact- if pursued then defend until the threat is neutralized. In SC retreat is not necessary, but is a good litmus test of the intent of the attacker. If defending the life of another, well then it’s gray. Again training says assess and act as if it was you yourself being attacked.

  19. I am an Illinois resident with a concealed carry permit. One of the reasons the prosecution is even considering prosecuting this upstanding system is the way the laws are written here in the People’ Republic of Illinois. During our CCW class (required… 16 hours) it was explained that we personally had to feel threatened. In other words, as it was explained during class, if the bad guy has my wife at gunpoint I can’t shoot the bad guy… because I’m not in danger. Of course there are ways to change that situation quickly… calling the bad guy a “insert your favorite expletive” and more than likely he’ll turn the gun on you. Then, and only then, am I permitted to unholster my weapon. I’m thankful for this armed patron and would likely have done the same thing!

  20. Get real people. If you shoot someone yet cleared of all wrong doing, be prepared to wind up in a civil suit. The house invasion creep that was armed with a baseball bat and shot dead got his revenge when his relatives won their suit on the basis that it was no contest since the home owner was armed with a weapon used against the thug with a bat.

    1. The reality is simple- even if you are solid, clear and it’s a clean shoot- you risk being sued. So the real question is this do you want to be a lamb and risk losing your life (or even worse in my opinion) or watch someone else lose theirs- or do you want to defend yourself and fight back.. If your only concern is a law suit- then you live a blessed life sir. The hard reality is that most violent acts can only be stopped by an act of further violence.

  21. While it is important to have trained for ‘broad scenarios’, it’s more important in my mind to maintain a clear and level head while armed, at all times. It’s also important to review scenarios where it is NOT appropriate to use a firearm! Go/No-Go training is a much better way to develop your reflexes than a flat ‘Shoot ’em as you see ’em’ methodology. At every instance in a situation, you need to be consciously asking yourself ‘Is this a Go/No-Go situation’, or, ‘Will my presence or a firearms presence potentially escalate this situation?’

    A scenario I’ve heard posed is ‘If I see someone beating his wife, then I’m gonna go in there and save her!’ This is literally the worst thing you can do at that point. Just call the cops. If you see someone beating their spouse through a window, the very worst thing you can do is charge in the front door. At that point, you’re an armed intruder. Even if you were coming to a victim’s aid, the perpetrator would be completely legally justified in shooting you for trespassing!

  22. Not one single person here has glorified the notion that they’re a hero and therefore would act. Neither has anyone claimed the taking of a life isn’t a big deal. It is. We should all understand that if we choose to carry. We have varying levels of committal to the preservation of life. If a perp begins shooting in the hostage scenario, then it’s too late. How many times do armed robbers get what they want and eliminate witnesses anyways? Is that a chance you’re willing to take? Watch some CCW in action videos on YouTube and see how fast things go from normal to not. It’s frightening.

    At the end of the day, no one has the right to take a life. Period. The law allows you to defend your life and the life of those around you. No matter what the outcome is, each one of us would lose sleep. Your choice to run is certainly your choice, but living with yourself is also your burden when innocent blood is on your hands. God forbid any of us have to make this decision. It’s better to live on your feet than die on your knees.

    1. still if you can save a life by taking one, you have to consider that. Sure it will live with you forever but so will the person who s life you saved. It’s hard but necessary in this day and age and with the attitudes that permeate the society now. Good luck

    2. I generally agree with your two paragraphs EXCEPT for the first sentence of the second paragraph about “no one has the right to take a life.” Respectfully, no one has the right to interfere with my life without my consent unless they break the law. And if they do unlawfully interfere, I am not precluded by any law I am aware of to defend myself. If that interference threatens my life I am allowed to defend myself appropriately. The taking of life is not a trite or whimsical thing, but defense of self to the level of deadly force is grounded in common law.

      I have never considered the taking of a life as something to consider lightly, but taking a life in defense of my own, or my family, is a grave decision I made decades ago.

      Other than that one lone comment, your thoughts closely align with my own, and I strongly agree that any force used against your fellow man is something you may have to come to terms with one day.

      If you have yet to have to make such a choice, I pray you never do, however as you say, it is better to live on your feet, than die on your knees.

      Good Life.

      TS

    3. Thanks for the replies. TSW, what you said more eloquently expressed what I was trying to say. No one has the right to come into my life and threaten me, my loved ones, or the innocent around me. I’ll act appropriately to defend those I have a legal right to do so. I’m not going to slip out the back door. This is a choice I made when I decided to carry.

    4. Decipher, thank you for your kind words. I started carrying as a law enforcement officer back in 1971. As I sit here today typing to you I still have my favorite sidearm, the M1911 variant, on my side. I began teaching deadly force in 1979 eight years after starting my career. I took an oath, as do our military to protect and serve decades ago. That oath has been tested many times, but not yet as a civilian.

      Your second sentence is an appropriate guide to any use of force, whether lethal or not. It guides and directs my actions now as a recently retired LEO who teaches the public self defense, including the use of deadly force options.

      If there is an ‘out’ than you should always consider it…even if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Once dead there is no do-over, and notice I said consider…any prudent human should reflect on where the “line in the sand” is for them personally. That moment when a situation goes from bad to “I’ve got to shoot.” No scenario can ever play out in your head all the ways it can go, BUT you can at least agree on guidelines you will follow in how you will escalate your responses to a threat, and you need to make THAT decision long before the situation faces you. It seems like you have. Thanks for letting me run on. Regards to you and everyone participating in this discussion.

      TS

  23. With the majority of the United States instituting the concealed carry law, why isn’t NJ following suit? Crime would come down if the perp thought the mark may be carrying. The stats show that is true, so why the no go on concealed carry in NJ.

    1. Well, because New Jersey is a socialist/progressive State. It’s very simple. Socialists are closet fascists, they want to tell you what to do, when to do and how to do it. A command and control State is what they are really after. If you think facts will disabuse them of this position you are sadly mistaken and need to read some history. I recommend “The Black Book of Communism.” The title is correct and is not a joke. Remember, there are approximately 30,000 to 50,000 PAGES of new and revised regulations imposed at the Federal level EVERY YEAR. I say imposed because our wonderful congress-critters have completely abdicated their responsibilities in passing laws and have written “laws” that allow nameless, faceless bureaucrats to study an issue and then start writing regulations WITH NO REAL OVERSIGHT AT ALL.

      New Jersey and many other States are the same way. The down and dirty gig here is that elected officials don’t want any negative news associated with their names so they push off hard decisions on bureaucrats and “special commissions” and “panels of experts.” This all begs the question: What do we pay these jokers for?

      You can get the book here:
      http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Book-Communism-Repression/dp/0674076087

  24. FBI is returning to a new 9mm. Don’t shoot a bullseye on a threat, hit multiple organs and never approach a suspect who is down, good luck

    1. No sure why anyone know why the FBI does what it does….I suspect they are looking at magazine capacity (as well as improvements in bullet terminal performance made since the infamous Florida incident) and your highly insightful comment about touching multiple organs.

      I teach my students that a 2 inch group is great for target shooting, but an 8 inch group across and human chest affects more organs, therefore hastens the shutdown of bodily functions. Great insight, sir.

  25. Your comments regarding a hostage situation go far surpass the training of a CCW/CCH permit training. You’re getting into hostage negotiations and profiling. This area is for the trained professional. Asking the individual wrong questions allows them more opportunity and could result in escalating the situation. In my opinion a CCW holder should always act within the framework of their training.
    The liability issue depends on the strength and weaknesses of the Castle Doctrine of the state you are in, and not the Good Samaritan Law.
    My hostage negotiations and profiling training was through the FBI.

    1. Joe, I respectfully disagree. While I agree that if you intend to carry, you should get more than basic handgun training,and you should know the laws in your state, but no one can be trained for every situation they may encounter. We are the first responders, and evil will flourish when good men do nothing.

      The founders of our country weren’t trained to overthrow a tyrannical government by waging war and then set up a whole new nation. If they had waited for proper training we would still be British subjects. Good men act when they encounter evil.

  26. Coming to the aid of others in trouble is commendable. Doing so competently might help keep both you and the victim safe. Safe from assailants and from the legal system after the smoke clears. Folks, things aren’t always as they seem. Unless you know the victim very well and all their friends very well you can easily mistake a prank or lover’s dispute for something else entirely. Your actions will be judged after the prosecutor has all the information to support your indictment. And don’t be surprised if the victim is the star witness against you. So many here seem anxious to whip out that hog leg and don their super hero cape and come to the rescue of anyone they perceive in trouble. And others have demonstrated in their posts a serious misunderstanding of laws regarding the use of lethal force.

    This irresponsible bravado on display in some of the posts here will get many of you in deep if you were to act as you talk. OK, you’re a good shot and brave as they come. Without tactical training you’re likely KIA in the fist seconds of a gun battle. Tactics is the art of advantage – you better have some serious training if you want to be effective and survive. Even with the best training you’re chance of being shot and taken out of the fight is high. Do you train to shoot & clear weapon malfunctions with one hand only? Have you been taught to treat battle wounds?

    Now some of you are combat vets and have the tactical training, but how much do you know about the legal system? Studied the case law on lethal force? Know your rights and responsibilities better than the prosecutor? How about after the perp is down – what do you do now? Call 911 while he bleeds-out? What do you say to the 911 operator and how does that effect your Fifth Amendment rights? What is exculpatory evidence and why should you care? How do you interact with first responders? And of course you already have a good criminal defense attorney on retainer – right?

    Maybe now is a good time to think this through as after the smoke clears and the 911 operator is pumping you for info is not the time to develop your action plan. No one wins a gunfight – the best you can hope for is to survive the fight and the legal system afterwards.

  27. It is a scenario that I HOPE will never happen. But God forbid if it does, each situation is different. I believe that you can NOT train yourself to deal with ALL possibilities. I’m pretty sure that even law-enforcement personnel or even most soldiers are not prepared for every situation. Each condition has its own circumstances, it’s own “unknowns”, and it’s own surprises. The saying “better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6” makes me feel incredibly uneasy. I honestly couldn’t tell you what I would do. It would have to depend on the situation and many other factors at that time. Some people like to brag, “oh, I’d blow them away,” or whatever and I’ve had plenty of people tell me, “well, if you decide to think instead of acting, you’ll be dead.” I chose to carry to protect me and my family. Not to be Billy Bad Ass or a hero, but just to protect my family. Call me a sissy, a woosy, a pussy, a left or right thinker, whatever. I have NEVER cared what other people’s opinions of me were. I’m only worried about my family. And IF a situation ever happens that is similar to the stories above, each will be dealt with based solely on the circumstances of that particular situation.

  28. As an instructor for ccw and a former po, I am amazed at what some consider an adequate ccw weapon. Size and caliber are not well planned out in alot of cases. Please be prepared for multiple suspects, reloading, and a caliber that ends the gunfight. Shot placement and multiple hits in disabling areas are the key.

    1. Bert,
      In your professional opinion, do you think 9mm hollow points are a suitable caliber/type for “ending a gunfight”?.

    2. In my opinion, any caliber and type / size of weapon YOU WILL CARRY CONSISTENTLY is good. I would rather be carrying a shotgun, if I can’t carry a shotgun I would like to have an AR 15 type pistol with a 30 round mag, if I can’t have that I guess I would want an XD .45 tactical with a 6″ barrel and 13 rounds + 1, if I can’t have that a Sig P226 in 9mm, if not that, then, maybe, a very small 9mm, Kahr? if not that how about a little Sig P238 in .380 ACP hollow point? If not THAT then maybe something high capacity in .25 or .22?? A sling shot? A rock? Just yell loudly and run around in circles? That last one is the lightest and easiest to carry!

  29. I have 3 kids, from 5yrs to 8months. Here is my story. I live in the country born bred around guns. Was on my way home after dropping off the wife at work. I had a neighbor get an attitude and start to step out into the road to make me swerve or wreck (gravel). I didn’t swerve I gave him the finger and kept going. I get to my house I pull up and get out grab my mail start doing what anyone does start looking through it and hear a car andpull up and i live on a dead end. It was an old retired police car but at first i didn’t realize, I thought it was county sheriff felt relief, until I see my neighbor get out and I start to get mad as he starts walking up to me until I see his hand on his revolver on his hip and its unsnapped. My blood ran cold I have 3 little kids in the back of my SUV. Mail in my hands all I can think is defuse this now, my pistol is in the house. I got back in my SUV thinking I wouldn’t make him feel intimidated or nervous, and I talk calmly telling him were neighbors this is ridiculous did he really want this to escalate. He did he thought he would bully me because I’m in my late 20’s he assumed I was a punk and he could scare me, wrong I’m country. The whole time hand on his gun in my driver window. Long story short I got it defused enough to pull in my driveway and I was dialing sheriff before he was in his car. I live in Missouri with Castle Law. I filed report against for impersonating police officer which he did in oral form. I also had a very long serious talk with the officer and got current info on carry laws and told the officer and put in my report if he ever came back to my house I would shoot him for trespassing. The officer told me I was within my rights and he had no right to chase me down and initiate confrontation over me flipping him off especially since he tried to cause a accident, what I did was not considered provocation it was considered freedom of expression. Since that day I do not leave my house without my pistol I don’t have a CC permit but I live in open carry state. It blew my mind that something like that could happen so close to home and over nothing. what scared me was when my wife pointed out did he even know the kids were with in the back? I don’t know but if another incident ever happens I will shoot first then dial the sheriff. I was in complete fear for my life and the safety of my small children. I used to think I only needed my guns in my home for protection there since there have been lot of home robberies out here. my other neighbor around the corner had over 200,000$ in firearms stolen. you think when you’re 6′ 200lbs you don’t need to carry well I say different now crime rates and peoples capacity for insane stupidity know no bounds these days.

    1. Just me, but I would never have gotten back in my vehicle unless my weapon was there. In a vehicle, you are trapped. Nowhere to go. And also, your kids were in the vehicle. I don’t mean this as criticism, just advice.

  30. Way too many undercover cops here in Phoenix-metro area. Gun comes out only to save me, my family, or someone I’ve known very closely, for years…. You just never can tell.

  31. It’s my understanding the guy was not charged. Everybody can state the laws and whether they would or would not intervene. Think how times you have stopped at a convenient store to gas the car, get a cup of coffee and use the restroom. You could accidentally walk into a armed robbery in progress or you use the restroom and when coming out their is a guy pointing a gun at the store clerk/cashier.
    Or you are out state and stop at one to use the restrooms and get some drinks. You are walking up to the front door with a family member. There appears to be a minor dispute between a female and some guy sitting in car. As you get closer all of sudden the guy in the has a gun in his hand and as you look the female is pulling a gun from the side of her purse.
    The thing is stuff like this happens all the time.

  32. EVEN IN A HOSTAGE SITUATION YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE THE PERP WILL ACTUALLY HARM .
    Too damed many kill em all and end the situation, but it is not de-escalatig the incident it is an escalation.
    Lots of macho bragado of how some can and others should not, well sorry but just shooting while it may be within legally permissable withoutbprpof positive of perps intent, you coming upon scene do not know. And some guys use situation as an ezcuse that ,orders on
    a sociopathic need to killm

    1. Um, a hostage situation? You believe that by someone taking a hostage you would have to be able to correctly interpret their intention before acting, AS IF A FORCIBLE FELONY LIKE THAT ISN’T ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU ACT? If, as a more than 20-year LE firearms and police tactics instructor, I taught that to police officer, no-one would be saved by a police officer.
      Remember the prudent person standard; What would a prudent person do in the same situation? You certainly do not have to pause, ask the Perp. qualifying questions to determine his mindset, and then decide if his/her actions meet the requirements of the use of up to, and including, deadly force as a response to his actions.
      Indecisiveness kills good guys a lot more than anything else. Yes, hurting people sucks and it will always hurt you, but being alive, or saving your fellow man from such cowardly and vicious acts by wolves, meaning wretched criminals who prey like wolves on the innocent, is a better alternative.
      IMHO

  33. There is the good Samaritan law and you do have the right to protect a third
    party’s life and if he got a gun and not a knife you are in your rights

    1. This is a State by State law situation. In some states, you can legally use your weapon to protect yourself, your family, your friends from lethal threats on and off your property, AND even threats to physical property, like someone stealing a car or your TV. In some states, you can only protect your and yours and anyone else who is near your, but NOT against purely property loss. In some States you can only protect you and yours and anyone else INSIDE YOUR HOME from a lethal threat. In some States it is not legal to use lethal force against anyone, even if they are in your home at 2AM rummaging around in your living room and there is a window you and your wife are able to climb out of. In this last case, these States have a “duty to retreat” to leave the scene and let the evil doers do whatever they want as long as they aren’t cornering you stopping you from leaving AND directly threatening you with physical, life threatening force.

      The point is, you cannot apply one standard to all States. If you move around the country you must know each State’s laws that you are in.

  34. About three years ago in Tulsa, a concealed carry holder came across a man who was beating the stuffing out of a woman. He intervened to save the female, shooting (and I think killing) the assailant. The next day the woman goes on the news saying her life was not threatened and that the altercation did not require deadly force. I never heard of charges were filed or if the man was sued in civil court.

    For my part, I will call the police and let them figure it out unless I am absolutely convinced deadly force is required. You can just never tell. Oklahoma law does not authorize me to be a “deputy”. I, for one, will not employ deadly for except to save the life of myself, my family, or my known close associates. If I find an unknown female (or male) in similar circumstance, I will be happy to be the witness when it goes to court.

    Let the wackos take care of themselves.

  35. I will not intervene in a situation I did not see start. Couple years ago, there was a case of a man with a gun chasing a woman.

    A CCW-holder intervenes, woman escapes unharmed. Yay, right?

    Problem was, the woman had just stolen a multi-thousand-dollar pearl necklace from the wife of the first man with a gun.

    1. Okay, but why did the man who was chasing the thief have his gun drawn? Is deadly force necessary to protect those pearls? Should the CCW holder have conducted an investigation prior to protecting another persons life?

      Do you know the outcome of this situation? I’d like to know if he was cleared.

  36. Only if there is an imminent threat of lose of life or bodily injury. You must also make sure that the chance of injury to others is very slight. You could fire, miss the perp, and strike another person…opening you up to a lawsuit. If the perp is retreating from the scene and no one is being threatened…don’t fire. Don’t use handloads, either. Cases have been made against those using handloads…when, if they had used a factory loads, nothing would have happened. Handloads= you loaded your round to kill someone. This whole issue is almost a throw of the dice…it depends on how the police view it and the witnesses, if any. A liberal witness, who might be an anti-gunner…for any reason, might gum up the works a little…even if you are totally in the right and the police bill it as a “good” shoot. Become familiar with your local laws…just so you know where you might stand. In any case…be prepared to answer a lot of questions and possibly go to court.

  37. I have to say that after 20 years of service to this country, including boots on ground in Iraq for a year, that this CCW carrier has no problem intervening in the event that severe bodily harm or death might result if not doing so. The key words to that are “SEVERE BODILY HARM OR DEATH”. Fortunately, I live in Texas which has excellent Gun Laws and protection for those that act within the confines of the law. I have had the, not so fun, opportunity to draw my weapon in a situation where a woman was being attacked by a man in her truck and he was stabbing her with a 12″ screw driver. Had I not intervened, I’m certain he would have succeeded in killing her (His cousin because she wouldn’t give him money to buy meth). I came within seconds of shooting him because, after finally listening to my commands to drop the weapon and back up towards the sound of my voice, he turned around and started to attack me with the screw driver. Fortunately for him and myself, he dropped the weapon and got down on the ground when he saw my finger go from being indexed to on the trigger and squeezing back to the break point. I kept the man on the ground at gun point until the police arrived and took over with out any further incident.
    My point is this: If you are going to get a CCW, then make sure you prepare for the event that you might have to actually use your firearm to stop or even possibly kill someone in doing so. I see so many get their CCW and then never practice shooting or even give one thought to how they would react to any given situation. I shave had twenty years of military experience, have taken life in combat, and I practice….. A LOT!!! Train like you fight, fight like you train. How does one do that? First of all, you have to shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Not just at a range and at a piece of paper that is straight in front of you. You need skills such as point shooting, moving and shooting, shooting behind cover, the proper grip, stance, aiming and trigger pull. To do all of this, I highly recommend getting involved in IDPA competition shooting at your local gun club. Take lessons from qualified instructors and get to know your gun inside and out. Practice drawing your weapon so that things like disengaging the safety become second nature and not putting your finger straight on the trigger. Just as important, know your states laws regarding the use of force, the use of deadly force and other important CCW related legislation. Last but certainly not least, Concealed Carry Insurance protection. I’m fortunate to have Texas Law Shield, a highly reputable company that only uses experienced lawyers and has them on call 24/7 in the event that I have to use my firearm or even just pull it out and the police are called. All I have to do is call TX Law Shield and they will send an attorney right away. However, if you ever have to pull your firearm, you should call 911 as soon as possible. Just think about, what if someone else beats you to calling 911, now all of a sudden you’re a crazed angry man with a gun and you just pulled a gun and started shooting at everyone; when in actuality, the suspect pulled a gun on you and you had no choice but to defend your self. Carrying a concealed firearm is a huge responsibility that comes with a multitude of consequences should you have to use it. Speaking from experience, even though it was the enemy in a war zone, taking another life is going to affect you and you will carry that with you forever. There is nothing rewarding or to celebrate when a human life is taken. If you think it’s going to be fun and you can’t wait to pull the trigger, or you celebrate it when you do or someone else does then you need to seek inpatient mental treatment and have no business carrying anything, not even a small pocket knife. I could go on and on about the why’s and why not to’s forever, however, there is nothing cool or sexy about being licensed to carry or carrying a concealed firearm. It’s not something to show off to your friends and it’s not like the movies, where, if someone pisses you of, you just lift your shirt so they can see that you have a gun. The license means that you are proficient in shooting, know the laws about carrying and when you can and can’t use a firearm and that you will carry responsibly and safely. Staying proficient and up to date on the laws is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY and TRAINING, PREPARING MENTALLY & PHYSICALLY and KNOWING YOUR FIREARM is just as big of a responsibility. Ignorance of the law is not a defense when you take a life, it’s called murder and the jail time is very real. Be safe every one, carry responsibly, and Honor The 2nd Ammendment and those who have fought and died protecting our rights.

  38. As a retired police officer, my criteria would be the same as when I was a cop. I would only take action to the point of firing my weapon if the life of an innocent person or my life was in danger. In the event of an armed robbery with the victim at gun point I would consider their life at danger. I think when you commit a crime using a deadly weapon, you are implying you are ready to kill if your wants are not met, and thus give up your right to the normal expectation of safety a law abiding citizen should be able to enjoy. In other words when you chose to break the law, you should expect to be at risk of the law and or the forfeiture of your life during the act of violence you have instigated.

  39. When either the perp says go back to the storeroom or refrigerator or shots are fired at someone else, or my family is threatened and I am going to nail him if I can .Someone runs into a Theater and begins to fire or threatens I will see if an LCP can hit at 50′.

    1. It would be a good idea to see if You can hit at 50 feet/yards with that LCP Before the flag goes up, Nate..Remember that every round fired has a string with a lawyer attached to it.

  40. I’m sorry but a concealed weapons permit only grant you the right to carry a concealed weapon on or about your person. That’s all nothing else. It doesn’t give you the right to take the law into your own hands. If you were in the store when the robbery was taking place you might be justified but shooting at a fleeing car I don’t think so. I don’t think stupid people should be allowed to carry a handgun just because they can pass a background check .

    1. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how things turn out, you are incorrect in SOME States. Here in Texas we CAN act as a substitute for an LEO. We aren’t deputized automatically when we seek and receive a CHL, but the laws governing lethal force in Texas DO allow me, as a legal carrier of a handgun to intervene in cases where I see some serious illegality go down. It doesn’t even have to be a case where someone’s life is in danger, it could be I see someone hijack a car by dragging the owner out of the car and throwing them on the ground and starting to get into the car to drive away. I COULD present and order the perp to stop and I COULD shoot that person. But I wouldn’t. In my straw man scenario I would see that the driver was roughed up by being thrown to the ground and their car stolen but I won’t present my weapon and would start try to stop the bad person. Help the driver to their feet, render first aid (I always have a kit on me), call 911.

      So, it depends on the laws of the State where you happen to be when the ball goes up AND what you choose to do in the moment.

  41. It’s so easy to sit in the comfort of your home and read the robbery scenario, concluding that you would escape if possible and let the events play out without intervening. Somewhere along the way, the value of human life has escaped even responsible gun owners and alleged protectors of our God-given rights. If you have the ability to intervene and you’re within the legal right to do so but choose not to, you’re no better than the evil doer who is choosing to take an innocent life. Surrender your weapon now because you can’t have it both ways.

    Imagine that the girl being led to the back of the store is your wife or daughter and a coward in the room, who was well within their legal right to deploy their weapon in the defense of the innocent, chose not to intervene and as such allowed the evil doer to continue which resulted in her rape or death. Could you live with yourself? Could you chalk it up to any of the sad excuses I’ve heard? If so, you need to consider why you’re carrying in the first place if you so poorly value life.

    I live in Illinois and apparently, the last state in the union to allow concealed carry, agrees with the actions of the shooter. That says something and it basically says you’re wrong to allow that action to continue to escalate.

    I am disgusted. I’ve been a long-time reader of these message boards but this is the first time I’ve been compelled to respond.

    Everyone must make the right choice for their situation but if you’re not prepared to exercise your right within the law, don’t carry at all. You’re just as dangerous as the evil doers out there.

  42. Based on others experiences , I will not get involved unless I can clearly see that their is a direct threat to myself or others. The costs of a legal defense is outrageous. Legal fees can exceed $100k if the police charge you. If the perp points his weapon at me then all bets are off as that is clear threat.

  43. Situationsl Awareness. I know in the hest of the “battle” you wont be thinking about lawyers, cops, lawsuits etc… But make sure you are “right” if you are at a convience store or some such place there are usually surveillance cametas which will hopefully back up your actions and could prove useful in a Civil suit by family, because we all know that the perp was an angel and loved kittens and babies, you hear it on the news everytime something like this happens. So always be on the scan and tweak up your Situationsl Awareness.

  44. Unless a loss of life or serious bodily injury is imminent, I would keep mine in my holster. Someone robbing a store/business IS NOT going to cause me to intervene unless a potential for violence is displayed. The store/business will just have to contact their insurance company to offset their merchandise loss.

    1. Meathead – I agree. We must be very careful about when to use deadly force. I can say this, if I saw a robber pointing any type of weapon at a cashier’s head, I would not hesitate to shoot the perp in the head. One shot would do. I am a marksman. Still I would not be happy about killing anyone, but I much rather have innocent hard-working citizens alive and well than see a criminal murder an innocent person. Hopefully none of us will need to make this decision, but all must consider what situations will arise and in advance decide what is the appropriate action to take with a fire arm. And remember – guns are always loaded and ready to fire – safety or not…

    2. I’m glad you are able to tell if a person so desperate for money they will threaten another person with a deadly weapon will not escalate the treat and kill to just for the hell of it. You must be much more perceptive than I, as I never could read a violent criminal’s mind.

    3. You are right to a point. However, if a person produces a gun the threat of violence is there. If you wait for it to materialize, it will probably result in the store owner or clerk being shot in a fraction of a second then you can explain to the victims family why you were waiting for a show of violence. If a robber pulls a gun and I can do so safely I would take him out instantly. Just my opinion..

  45. I have been in federal law enforcement for over 25 years. Most of which I served on tactical teams.

    The best rule 3 things I can pass along to any human being preparing to be in a position to make life or death decisions with a firearm are….

    -only in order to prevent death or grievous bodily harm. (And be ready to defend that perception as “reasonable” in a court of your peers.

    -visualize scenarios occurring, imagine how they will unfold and visualize yourself responding appropriately.

    -if you imagine a scenario, and you visualize using deadly force, contemplate the possibility you could go to jail for your actions . If you believe you could come out of jail many years later, and would still respond to the same situation the same way,
    YOU MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

    1. This is the exact logic I use. If I were to pay the price of prison time for my decision, would I do it again…

      Most who carry are not “itching” to pull their weapon. I know I don’t ever want to. However, that doesn’t stop the constant, over and over, role play of “what if” situations, just to make sure that if the time ever does come I don’t have to do it at the time I have the least time to do so!
      But even with all of the practice scenarios there will be a bit of last second deciding that could be the difference between needing to and wanting to pull my weapon. The woman shooting at shoplifters clearly wanted to pull hers. The person who shoots at a fleeing attacker wants to. By the time THOSE decisions need to be made they shoulf have already been. Anything else is a “want” to pull and fire.
      But, your last statement says it all for me. Would I do it all again after spending years in prison? That’s perfect.

      Thanks for sharing.

    2. WHY is it that bad people have more rights than law abiding people? WHY do the survivors of bad people who do bad things have the right to file law suit against a law abiding person “getting involved”? I am totally against theft and some dirt bag taking the life of another simply because he can … AND get away with it. I WILL PROTECT my family and my self at all costs. I’ve worked hard for what I have AND it’s MINE!!!!!!

  46. The law may vary from state to state, but I carry in Calif and the law is clear and murky at the same time. You must be in fear of death or great bodily harm in order to use your weapon. It also says you may defend another from the same.
    However, it also says that once a person is fleeing that person is no longer a threat or the aggressor at that point. I know it is hard, but I will use a recent example if you were standing in your driveway with your wife and a car drove by and shots were fired and your wife went down would you fire back if carrying? technically the car is now leaving and no longer represents a danger I know what I would do but these are the things we must be aware of and are the murky sides of the law. I know that with some prosecutors you might not have charges filed and I also know that there are many who would files charges based on personal belief and not so much the law.
    So to me the real question is how to fight city hall.

    1. This is just one of hundreds of reasons why I will never live in California. The state is so pitifully Liberal that they even began advertising on TV and Cable about how “Californians are just normal people like every one else”. Very pathetic. And illustrates my point. Gee they are so great at forestry also! Wildfires… Drought… These are problems that other states are addressing and solving. NOT California. California at this rate of their conservation will become a total desert. Wanna live there? Not me. But I would be glad to sell them water in the future… This has been an Educational Moment in Economics…

  47. The criteria involves the totality of the circumstances. Endangering the welfare of an unknown quantity of people by shooting at an automobile for a theft in a hardware store is unacceptable, unless perhaps the theft involved dynamite or another substance capable of being used as a WMD.

    If I feel compelled to intervene, I use my head, not my balls. Just assuming an authoritative stance and talking to deescalate a situation is preferable, rather than being the bigger asshat in the room. Of course, when dealing with a violent person who may or may not per armed (think Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin) relating matters to the use of force, to include deadly physical force, may have to be the option used.

    Most liberal politicians believe that nobody should have a right to protect the well being of themselves or another. They should a lesson from Genesis, when Kane asked God if he was his brother’s keeper.

  48. Anyone who would not intervene to save the life of even a total stranger being attacked has no business carrying a pistol and is an embarrassment to responsible carry advocates.

    1. Pat. Sorry, but in todsys litiginous society, and states like CA, illinois, New Jersey , New York, etc- uou can guarantee thst you will be proscecuted if there is even a small chace the DA can get a conviction. Nevada, Texas and somd more conservative ststes ? Depends on the LOCAL DA. If it aint “blood kin” are YOU. Willing to go to jail, spend $20k+ over someone you dont even know? Just because you CAN, doesn’t mean you HAVE to or even SHOULD. Going to jail for defending some ‘liberal gun grabber’ would be the ultimate irony. A child? That’s another scenario you must train for in advance.
      To just expect a concealed carrier to defend everyone is unreasonable and very poor liberal thinking

    2. Absolutely, I agree maybe being a veteran influences my belief. But we as Americans “Simply Can`t Stand by and watch”, Or allow ANYONE who is obviously being Victimized with the real possibility of Death or Serious Injury to be killed or Harmed and NOT Engage the Attacker As an Armed Citizen. I`m an old man. I grew up When Honor Courage & Aiding your neighbor was/IS the way of life. And,THAT IS WHAT WE AS AMERICANS DO!
      If it`s a robbery with a gun out in their hand waving it around, Let them get the money & go. Hell, I`ll get the door for them. BUT if they shove a gun in some Girl/Guy Clerk`s face. ONE Of us is going down. If you are THAT selfish to the point of ONLY protecting yourself. I don`t want you in my Foxhole. You`re unfit to Serve, & Therefore, Unfit to carry a Gun.

  49. Many of the people I hang around are police officers or sheriff deputies or SBI agents these are my friends . Many a discussion has happened about this exact subject, and we have me to the conclusion that it is better if there is only one side to the story. Say nothing except I was in fear for my life and make sure all the bullet holes are on the front of the perp. This was a lesson learned the hard way in Vietnam. It sounds cold, but family comes first…

  50. One comment: remember George Zimmerman. Unless loss of life is imminent, leave your weapon in its holster, call 911, then observe and report.

  51. I fail to see John Wayne in a negative way. Perhaps you could find another way to describe the activity you are referencing. John Wayne was a Patriot deserving of respect.

  52. This is a sticky scenario. At the end of the day I probably wouldn’t have intervened. Unfortunately this country has become a place where “heros”, as some posters have identified them (and accurately, not dismissing that), are slapped with criminal prosecutions or civil lawsuits that can ruin your life or land you in jail. Sure, call it selfishness…but America today is a place where I have to make a choice, dead or broke/in jail. If those are my choices…I choose broke/in jail, but only as it applies to my life and my families lives.

    Someone mentioned mass shootings. I’m a grad student and I carry to campus every day. In the event of an active shooter, I have the reasonable expectation that my life is in danger and that I am a target. Therefore the decision to engage would be an easy one. This is an entirely different scenario than the example given.

    We live in a country where criminals can and do win in these scenarios. It’s sad…I agree, but that is the state of the nation. Honestly I am just glad that, for the time being, I have the right to defend myself. If someday this country decides to change it’s policy regarding prosecuting CCW holders, or determines that criminals and their families can’t pursue civil action against people defending the public…I’ll gladly step into action in these scenarios.

  53. I’m not a cop nor would I want to be. Here in California CCW’s are impossible to get in my county. Even if I had one I would not use the weapon for anything other that personnal defense in a life threatening situation, exactly how the CCW laws are written here. Legal reasons would prevent my involovement in any other situation.
    If you want to get involved, the law of unintended consenquences will take care of you.

  54. It’s truly disheartening to see so many that could sleep at night after slipping out the back door when witnessing a gun totting thug take a young female store clerk to the back of the store.
    I can only believe they are the same ones that would spit on a soldier or cop for risking their lives for strangers.
    If you can’t tell the difference in a BAD guy and a GOOD guy leave your gun at home or sell it. You have no business owning a gun. You are a danger to yourself, your FAMILY and the general public. You’ld do better to get a dog, they know the difference.
    I just wonder now how many, at the mass shootings, were carrying a gun and slipped out the back door because they were afraid to get involved or hurt. Sleep well.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Maybe this should read,
    a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the individual and his family, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    BTW you can count, the number of Business owners that allow their employees to carry, without taking off your shoes.

    1. @ Jim,

      Well said. My sentiment exactly. I’m disgusted by all these cowards and honestly had no idea there were so weaklings in this type of forum. This has truly been an eye-opener for me and after many many years contributing to and enjoying this forum I think I am done visiting for good.

  55. My philosophy is shoot to stop. Not to kill. Shoot to stop someone from being injured or killed by a bad actor. A perp holding a gun, knife, club, but not in the act of using it….don’t shoot. But when that gun comes to a shooting stance and the perp prepares to fire, the hand with the knife ‘cocks’ back for a stab, the club is ‘cocked back’ for a blow….that’s when I fire. I shoot when they are in the act of attempted injury to me or someone else. Shoot to stop the act from being completed. The fact that the perp dies from your gun shot is purely incidental. “I fired to try and stop him from stabbing, shooting the store clerk, judge”. I tried to stop him.

    You don’t say things like “drop the weapon OR I WILL SHOOT YOU”. Remember the act of attempted assault. Someone standing still with a knife is a POTENTIAL threat. You cannot shoot. But when they take a step towards you, make a jab or stab motion with the weapon or actually shoot or stab or club someone, the way to a stop is clear to stop them from doing it again. But if you scream “stop” or “drop the weapon”…and they instead turn and run away, you CANNOT SHOOT THEM!

    Never shoot at a fleeing suspect.

    1. Shoot to stop? How EXACTLY is THAT done? You will need to know where to hit the perp with a bullet to stop them. Good luck with that one. I saw a policeman empty his gun on a drug frenzied maniac that had just blasted the officer’s teeth out with his own night stick and the perp was STILL fighting back with great success. Then, even if you know WHERE to shoot, you must be accurate enough to hit that target while it is moving (few perps will pose while you draw a bead) toward you or someone else. Never draw your gun unless you intend to shoot and never aim it unless you have authority to shoot. Never shoot unless you intend to kill. That is all.

    2. I don’t agree with this line of reasoning. Although I know what you’re saying, and everyone is entitled to their view, “shoot to injure” is a good way to injure yourself or someone else. If someone is in the act of hurting or murdering someone else, or if someone is threatening as much, you shoot until the threat is neutralized. Maybe that’s what you’re saying. But “shoot to injure” I think is a dangerous wording (e.g. “Go for his legs”, “Just shoot his arm”, etc).

      As for a fleeing suspect, I would review local laws and take a course. Actually, I really want to. For instance, if someone is in a crowded mall area and just tried to murder people with a knife, maybe even got one or two, then starts running… you know that, by letting him/her get away, someone else could get killed.

      Be prepared. Check local laws. Determine when you will shoot. And when you do, neutralize the threat (that usually means killing them).

    3. I think what he was getting at, is: you say you shot to stop the aggression, not shoot to kill. ” I shot to kill” would indicate you intended to kill the suspect.
      That was training I had- shoot to stop. If they happen to die as a result, oh well. If your shots are well placed, they will anyway. But if someone advances on you with a weapon after you told them to stop, or drop it, then you are cleared to defend yourself. Remember: you feared for your safety/life. Another thing Greg is right about- never shot at a fleeing felon, because the threat to you is over.

  56. I got my Texas permit 20 years ago in the very first month the Texas law took affect. Our instructor was a retired police detective, and a Texas trial lawyer was there to speak as well. The lawyer talked about when it was legal and appropriate to use your firearm. He used several examples such as 2 guys fighting, or man & woman fighting, or man dragging screaming woman or a kid into a car…in these cases, do Not use your weapon…you can intervene verbally, but do not draw your weapon…”you prospective license holders are not cops and simply do not have the authority to enforce laws, make arrests, etc…to do so otherwise puts you at risk for not only possible felony charges & jail time, but also civil lawsuits at the very least.” The bottom line was to ONLY use your weapon to defend yourself and family against actual, real physical threat, and even if you are in the right, you will STILL likely have to hire a lawyer that will cost at least $10,000 (that was 20 years ago). I live by those rules to this day.

    1. This is why it’s wise to buy. CCW safe legal service they will pay to protect you in these situations $125 is all it takes for a million dollar coverage

  57. I agree with G-man, it is a sad commentary on the present attitude in this once great nation that needs to come full circle and return to what it once was , people should care about each other and intervene when needed using good judgement as to force required to and consequences of that force, hopefully the USCCA will bring prosecuters to bring justice back for all and not center on their political agenda. To the cowards out there, maybe a like minded “ME” individual will be your backup when your future is on the line and you will reap your form of justice?

  58. I can honestly say that I agree with each scenerio and opinions, But I also carry for personal protection. I didn’t prepare to go out and be a hero. Or a dead one. Please think of one thing. If it was me in that store and your son or daughter being taken over by the perp, would you want me to act. Or take no action? Not my family. Where do you draw the line?

    1. Of course I would want you to act. But, you’re making it personal. There’s reasons that Dr’s. don’t treat relatives and police officers don’t respond to family matters.

  59. The thought SHOULD be,,,,do you have enough money to hire a lawyer when the CIVIL lawsuit hits you regardless of what the situation was ? Look at what has happened to many POLICE officers who were found NOT GUILTY in a court of law but were bankrupted by the perps survivors.

  60. Noticed neighbor in gated community storing metal that appeared to be scaffolding, I asked her if she wanted to sell it. She said no, she was going to scrap it. Next day, I noticed maintenance men re-installing metal door support on dumpster surround. I spoke with them about said metal and they told me it was obtained from same neighbors back porch. Neighbor didn’t like me talking to maint. men and sent her ex-husband(felon) to my home drunk, to confront me. He threatens to kick my ass. He has his foot inside my door, sideways, I tell him he needs to leave, so I force his foot and him out by closing the door. I call the Sheriffs office and make a report, they say I need to come down there to make the report. The next day I coming home and this neighbor lady is walking her dog across the street to the dog area. I park my car and say to her, you didn’t have to involve you husband in this mess. She says, oh, you want to talk to my husband, and then she reaches down and unhooks her pit bull from its leash, which it immediately comes running toward me. I’m licensed and I pull my gun, I say you better get that dog back on the leash before I shoot it. Then he Ex-husband comes walking around the corner of the building towards me, on the sidewalk and says, you shoot my dog, you better shoot me to. I said I’ve got plenty of bullets. He keeps agitating, by walking toward me with threats. At this point I don’t know where the dog is, of course I’m watching him (he’s been to prison 4 times), he get’s to the house next door and puts his hand to his face and whispers, I’m going to kill you. Immediately, he becomes the target. He continues to walk toward me. I remember an article when you have a threat approaching you never let them close the distance between the two of you. The threat will try to get your gun and shoot you with it. He got to the cross sidewalk, with ten feet to my front door. I had to say something to him to dissuade him from moving any closer. I said, if you step over that line, I’m not just going to shoot your dog, I’m going to empty the rest of the clip in your ass. With two locks to disengage and my hand shaking, because I didn’t want to shoot anything, I got inside my door and called the sheriffs office. They came to the house and took information from the neighbor, which was all lies and then rang my bell. I opened the upstairs window and they asked me to come down. I told them I have a license to carry and did they want me to bring my gun down with me. They said no. I came down and told them what happened. They arrested me and charged me with agg assault, handcuffed me and took me to jail. They said he didn’t have a weapon. He has been to prison four times, he is a weapon. He wanted to get close enough to shoot me with my own gun and that wasn’t going to happen. I was released the next day on my own recognizance, but required to give the weapon to my wife who lived somewhere else and got to the probation office twice a week for the next four months. I felt I had to hire a lawyer for $2000 retainer to pursue dropping the charges. Other lawyers wanted as much as $4000. The prosecutor only lets them push so hard. Within the next week at some time, someone cut the screen six inches, on my back door, I had installed a padlock on it long before this altercation. So they didn’t get in. My carry permit was worthless at this time so I carried anything I could for protection in my car, inside my front door. I felt like the criminal, I had to avoid him and her, I am a disabled veteran and I get treated like the criminal. I haven’t lost respect for the police officers. As far as living in a community where they won’t protect me, they can kiss my ass if they think I’ll live her any longer. Four months later they drop the charges, but tell me that they can renew them up to two years later. Where’s the justice in that? I’m also out $2000. Do I have an endless supply of money?

  61. Familiar with Asimov’s fundamental laws? His robots are not allowed through their actions to bring harm to a human or through inaction to allow a human to come to harm. With minor modifications I embrace and recommend this philosophy. I do not wish to bring harm to any innocent human or through my inaction to allow an innocent human to come to harm.

    My family and I are innocent as those put at risk by the convenience store robber are. The robber or other armed attacker threatening innocent life is fair game, a target. Do you want to allow innocent lives to be threatened, or worse, due to your inaction?

    All it takes for tyranny to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

  62. Having sat through at least 15 annual “use of force” classes mandated by the California Dept. of Corrections, it was pounded into my head to use the necessary force to “stop the threat” of serious bodily injury to not only myself, but to anyone else in my immediate environment. You can not go beyond “stopping the threat..” Shop-lifting poses no threat to serious bodily injury, unlike an armed gunman taking an unarmed female into a back room. One is also responsible for all the damage caused by the bullet he fires. An FMJ round might pass through the justifiable target and injury an innocent bystander, making YOU responsible for the injury to the bystander, so consider your ammo.

    1. Mike, what exactly is a “good sap” to carry? Is that the same stuff that oozes from trees? Do you throw it under the shoes of a perp in hopes of slowing him down? Or did you misspell soap? I guess that would be useful in washing the blood off of you after the gun fight. All kidding aside Mike I didn’t get what you meant, and it may have been obvious but I have a habit of missing the apparent.

  63. I’ve read over and over comments like, “Better to be a good witness… blah, blah” or “I carry to only protect myself and immediate family”. I wished I could say that I respect your opinions regardless, but I can’t respect such selfishness. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen so many cowards assembled in one place. What a disappointment our society has become. Sadly, gone are the people that once made this Nation great; whose strength and boundless character afforded them the courage to stick their neck out to help someone they didn’t even know regardless of the personal risk involved. That’s what makes a hero. But heroes are a dying breed. The quality of such persons I fear will be lost forever with the passing of the last WWII Vets. You readers know who you are, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Go ahead and flame, I could care less.

    1. I understand your sentiment and agree. However, the liberals have created an environment in which, if you pull/discharge a legally carried firearm to help someone else, you may be subject to criminal prosecution. Then it is your life in peril. If you are prosecuted it also places your family in peril.
      In the case of the lethal shooting described above, the customer who came to the defense of the store employees did not know the intent of the robber. He may have had a history but was it violent and would he have harmed anyone had he simply got the money and left? In that case there was not imminent danger of serious harm or death and a liberal prosecutor would like press charges for murder. How would you and your family fare when paying for defense lawyers?

  64. One thing I have not seen anyone mention when talking about defending themselves is that many attacks and muggings are blitz attacks. In many of these cases you will not have an opportunity to draw a weapon. The point: be aware of your surroundings.

    I parked my car one evening and a block away from the parking garage, was pushed from behind and punched in the side of the head simultaneously by two perps. Fortunately I have martial arts training and they backed off when I took a defensive stance. In that situation most other people would have gone down and had their wallets taken, and the perps running off before they knew what happened.

    When I got my concealed carry license I played this event over and over and realized that in these situations a gun would not always help. By the time the victim could draw, the perps would be running away and no longer a threat. Also, it made me purchase a retention holster so that it would be less likely a perp could take my gun if he was lucky enough to get the better of me. In my case, playing Monday morning quarterback, drawing a gun had I had one would have not been the right thing to do since it was a crowded area and any shot (even a through and through) could have easily hit someone else.

    So to add to the comments in this thread, awareness is as important as training, common sense, and knowledge of the law. My mistake was to ignore these two perps when I saw them in the lobby of the parking garage. I was more concerned with getting to the restaurant where I had just dropped off my wife than keeping an eye on two suspicious characters. They were caught a week later after robbing a woman the same way after a witness followed them. He acted as a good witness rather than a hero.

    I do carry my weapon but I do so knowing now that things happen and in the heat of a situation you have to remain aware of what is around you, and what lies beyond the threat. Unless you train for this, it will be almost impossible to consider all these things in the seconds you may or may not have when you draw your weapon.

    On another note, I’d like to see an article comparing the different groups that offer insurance or whatever for self defense situations.

  65. I carry everyday and thankfully I have not been in this situation . I would hope if ever confronted with a situation that I can help, but I also want to go home to my family. After all they are my main responsibility . I did purchase carry insurance in case something happens I will have leagal support. 97% of carriers don’t have it, my opinion is its a good idea. It would be bad to be in one of those gray situations and be all alone and possibly get everything you have worked for taken in a split second.

  66. Time for you to stop drinking that Jim Jones Kool-Aid. The Second Amendment DOES apply to all Americans not just the public employees (we don’t have servants in America anymore). As an American citizen you a4e JUST as beholding to the Constitution as anyone else. You can swear or not take an oath, it doesn’t matter, the Constitution is the Law of THIS Land.

  67. It’s easy to say what one would or wouldn’t do. It’s a lot harder when presented with a situation. One thing I do know is that I did not purchase, and I do not carry, any weapon to protect someone else. I carry to protect first, my family, and second myself. That’s it. If you want someone to be armed to protect you, then get a gun, and train with it. I’m ready for everyones wrath here, but in the above convenience store scenario, given the opportunity I would slide out of that situation. You never know when something might drastically go wrong when pulling your gun. I’m not going to be killed trying to protect someone that won’t take their own initiative to protect themselves, because my gun malfunctioned or I didn’t see the second bad guy.

    1. maybe there won’t be so much wrath hailing down on me. I just finished reading all of the posts and see that there are many more of you that feel like me.

    2. You should see the HEAT rounds being fired at one person suggesting great caution being exercised by CCW holders in an active shooter situation.
      One former Marine (Marines, sod off, you’re active, reserve or former) is suggesting being, *really* sure before engaging and all manner of attacks are going on.

      The John Wayne types ruin the reputation of the majority of firearm owners and CCW holders.

    3. If a person doesn’t take the initiative to protect themselves, their families and their possessions, why should we incur the risk and expense of doing it for them? I think you’re right on target (no punintended) Indiana steve!

    4. Steve, would you not stop to help an elderly woman change her flat tire although she could have used the same foresight that you did in making sure you have plenty of tread and solid rubber to drive on? If you have the means to save or protect life and limb why not use it for that very reason? Your reasoning were used during the 1940’s we would never have entered the war against Germany until it was too late.

    5. Great response! I’ve always thought that i would do what i could to help and defend anyone given a situation that I felt that I could control with or without a firearm. The way you put it as everyone should take their own responsibility to protect themselves is spot on. You have defiant;y given me some more to think about. Thanks!

    6. Indiana Steve,

      I agree with you and carry for the same reasons. I have thought about some scenarios and if I would / wouldn’t get involved. We went over this in my CCH class as well (back when I took it). I never want to figure out who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy, then use lethal force. If I’m wrong, I could kill an innocent person. What if there’s a second person overseeing the illegal act that I don’t know about, etc… Like you said, there are so many things that could go sideways, I’m not willing to risk everything for someone who isn’t my family.

    7. I cannot believe all the cowards out there.,that would help defend someone else .what has become of the people of this great nation?

    8. It is crucial to understand the difference between law enforcement officers and the authority they have been granted by the state, as opposed to a lawfully licensed gun permit holder who have no law enforcement authority whatsoever. The permit allows one to protect himself and family from real deadly threats. Going outside of that narrow parameter puts you at possibly very serious legal peril.

    9. @ condor,

      We the People are the authority which bestow and convey the power to law enforcement; as such we possess equal authority and may make lawful arrests just the same.

  68. I would just like to say real quick, you also have to have common sense. With out that you end up with people like that woman. So if your an instructor or you know someone that carries and they seem to be a dull crayon maybe help them out. Or possibly convince them that maybe they should carry a knife/taser…lol. Just thought I’d throw that out there…. Be safe and practice safe carrying. We don’t need bad publicity like that. The End and thank you for caring to read folks

  69. (Geiser)
    I read your post and you made some good observations about conceal carry. People who choose to carry should constantly train to be ready to defend themselves or others in a life threatening situation. And you must know the when and when not to pull your weapon. If you make the wrong decision you could be injured ,killed or prosecuted!
    But I do not agree with the notion that “POLICE” are all knowing and master of carrying a weapon!!!!!
    You can search the web or youtube and see many,many,many news stories of inept cops using a firearm inappropriately.. I know a lot of cops believe they should be only the “CHOSEN ONE’S” to be able to carry! Guess what? My life is just as precious as yours. I work 3rd shift as a Truck Driver making constant stops for deliveries. I am approached by all kinds of undesirables, I was robbed by six gang bangers before I started to conceal carry and there was not a cop around for my protection! Police usually are only around after a crime is committed. So please don’t talk down to us little people who aren’t in law enforcement! When you mentioned the Wyatt Earl syndrome, I thought that was funny! There are alot of cops that have I am JESUS syndrome.

    1. Walter E Powell Jr

      Exactly, I already replied to Geiser and his feelings of grandeur because he is a LEO and on such a higher cognitive level than the rest of the non-LEO’s in our nation, thanks for making the point, well said.

  70. Good article… perhaps often talked about, thought about but never FULLY appreciated until it goes down and you pull the trigger.
    Fear and why you are afraid are significant issues. Are you just paranoid and so the ‘large’ person with the scowl is just too menacing. Turns out he’s an ex-football player turned pastor… but you offed him because it was dark, you were afraid and had a gun.
    Those who mention training, yes… there is almost never enough.
    So glad you brought this up.
    Personally I would “only” get involved in distinct life and death situations and “Perhaps” only my own and people I love. Yeah, I’ve got prior LE for ten years background and have been using handguns since ’62 and practice tactical all the time… but courts don’t care and “evidence” is only what the judge allows in even if you get hung. Each to their own but an excellent discussion. All be safe!

  71. This is a great subject to ponder and one that every gun owner needs to think about before arming themselves for self defense. I’ve had a lot of training – the US Army taught me to fight in the jungles of Southeast Asia, one of the larger SoCal PDs trained me as a patrol officer where I graduated top of my academy class, and I have had a great deal of advanced tactical training & annual recurrent training. Retired now, I still carry a weapon everyday for personal defense and I practice with it weekly. My weapon is for defense of myself & my family. I am very confident in my training and ability but it is not likely I’d intervene on behalf of another party. It’s just too dangerous, both physically & legally. Nobody ever wins a gunfight – the best you can hope for is to survive the lethal encounter & the legal system after the smoke clears. Better to be a good witness.

  72. I agree with Geiser. I have no LEO experience. I do have military training in weapons both long gun and hand gun. I also went through A four day hand gun and a four day Shot gun course at Front Sight. In all of that training the discussion of shoot/ no shoot was extensive. Also simulations were done. I still go to a simulator on occasion.
    The local CCW course(I took a month ago and passed) was a four hour lecture on the State Laws and an hour on the range with three target distances(30 rounds). There was not a requirement to prove prior training/competence. It was way to easy imho.

  73. That is a great idea! I was thinking of getting a taser but that requires an up-close-and-personal approach. The pepper spray allows some separation from the perp

  74. I enjoyed the read and agree with all that which was discussed. However, as retired LEO I find the laws established to identify undesirables with weapons and recipients of concealed weapons carry permits too lax or not enforced. As to the matter when to intervene, well isn’t that the million dollar question. We all know that CCW permits vary from state to state but regardless, they are all way too easy to get. There is little or no training for applicants to complete in order to get these permits. And what training they do get is little to nothing. Basically how to load and which end to point at the target. That’s scary! I know this because my daughter got her CCW in Florida. She told me about the training she got which in her opinion was a joke and she has no LEO experience. She had the insight to come to me, a former department firearms’ instructor to get the training she needed. I discussed with her many scenarios involving shoot no shoot situations. Unfortunately many CCW carriers do not have that luxury. Which brings me to my point. In my opinion, unless the applicant can prove prior LEO firearms training, that person should be required to attend a state sanctioned class addressing:
    Proper handling of a weapon
    Shoot/no shoot situations. Simulated scenarios would be best.
    It should be a pass/fail course.
    Extensive background investigation.
    If its cost money, well so be it. A small price to pay for the privilege of carrying a concealed weapon.
    Nothing scares me more than going into a place of business and seeing a young man or woman with a weapon strapped to their side showing all that they are armed. We called that the “Wyatt Earp syndrome” It’s going to get someone killed.

    1. With all the cops shooting unarmed people I think that it’s not so much the training that saves lives but common sense.scenario,weapon involved,shoot.no weapon,don’t shoot.

    2. @Geiser

      I have to take exception to your assertion that carrying a concealed weapon for the purpose of protecting your own life and the lives of your loved ones is a “privilege.” It is not a privilege, it is the right of every law abiding citizen. Aside from being a violation of the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, the entire Liberal mindset that it is a privilege is elitist and just plain stupid.

      The concept that someone having the means to defend themselves from a criminal who is never going to follow laws regarding possessing and carrying a firearm being a privilege, means that there has to be people who determine if that individual will be a defenseless victim or not. This sounds remarkably like the kind of drivel that comes out of the mouths of Liberals and Socialists. On top of that, the idea that “If its cost money, well so be it.” means that if someone doesn’t have the money to spend, then they’re just out of luck until they do.

      Personally, I do not agree with open carry for a variety of reasons, but here in Virginia it is legal. Anyone who can legally own a firearm can carry it openly most places except the obvious exceptions such as court houses and airports. Having been a Probation Officer and dealt with a lot of crazy felons over the years I can agree with the court house, but the airport not so much. However, whether I agree with it or not, everyone has the Constitutionally guaranteed, although God-given right to defend themselves from violence.

      When I was taking the mandatory CC training in Utah, I was a bit surprised that range time was not mandated, although the LEO giving the course included it because he felt it was a good idea. When I asked why the state did not require a certain level pf proficiency with a pistol before getting a permit, he gave an excellent answer i’ll never forget.

      He said, the State of Utah believes it is everyone’s right to have the means to defend themselves, and that includes the elderly or handicapped who might have difficulty passing a range based weapons proficiency qualification. Those people may not be able to pass a range qualification, but at the kinds of ranges most gunfights take place at, they will at least have a chance to defend themselves.

      Finally, your comment that “unless the applicant can prove prior LEO firearms training, that person should be required to attend a state sanctioned class addressing” is again elitist and pure nonsense. Over my years of military, law enforcement (my son was a LEO as well), and private security work all over the world I have not been impressed by many of the current or former LEOs I have worked with as being all that well trained for dealing with an actual gunfight..

    3. Mikial,

      I agree with you completely.

      I’ve known a few cops that thought, “we’ve got our guns, no one else needs them”. And with the same or similar beliefs as Geiser.

      I’ve also known a very many police officers who believe as you and I.

      I was a cop in Oakland, CA for 10 years back in the 70’s as well as a Field Training Officer. More recently I’ve shot with friends who wee practicing for IDPA, 3-gun, etc. Some of the civilian training nowadays, at least in the physical aspects of shooting, are far and away superior to what we went through at the PD range!

    4. It seems to me an open carry invites the bd element to attack you for the firearm. The other day I was standing in line at a discount store and noticed a .38 special stuck in the rear waist band of the jeans the young woman was wearing in front of me. I thought how easily I could remove that gun from her pants if I had ill intent. Still, I think an armed citizen is a good thing.

    5. I’m pretty sure I don’t agree with your statement regarding, “A small price to pay for the privilege of carrying a concealed weapon.” I was under the impression from my legal studies that the 2nd. amendment was just that, a right established by our founding fathers in the constitution, not a privilege reserved only for law enforcement officers. That position runs parallel to that of socialism and seems to infer that simply because one is or was a LEO, they have more education, a higher IQ or even more common sense than that of any citizen that does not have a LEO background, seems pretty arrogant. LEO’s are not noted, to my knowledge, or any statistics I have covered to be in the upper quadrant of a bell shaped curve regarding their general knowledge, common sense or IQ levels.

    6. “….It’s going to get someone killed.”

      Hopefully, just the BG! In all seriousness, I mostly agree with your dissertation. As you note, getting a CC permit is relatively easy in most states. I’m not a fan of some requirement to pay a fee in order to secure some paper that “relatively” authorizes me to protect myself with any appropriate means, in this case a firearm. If a state wants their people to “feel better” by ‘requiring’ CCW permits, then the state and their taxpaying citizenry should bear the cost. As an example, my state has escalated that “fee” from the initial $15 to what is now nearly $100($85)! The last time I read that ‘infamous’ 2nd Amendment, I did not see where I am required to pay to “bear arms.”

      Having said all that, I do think that just because you are ‘authorized’ to be armed, not all should be, and that includes some police I have known. Those who can “accept the responsibility” of going armed, which includes becoming, as the OP says, proficient, not just with that weapon, but knowledgeable in the appropriate laws and circumstances of implementing a weapon “might” be qualified in ‘going armed.’

      Handling any firearm, especially a handgun, is no “plug and play” proposition. I spent 20 years in Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children’s organization, attended many more long gun and pistol matches I have forgotten, and still “go armed” much less than intrepidly. I review, constantly, laws like “fleeing felon” that is likely going to get one police officer some jail time for shooting someone eight times in the back; or, the woman depicted in this article!

      Scary? Right on. More scary, in my case, being a sheep unable to protect myself or mine from the wolf….. To each his own, just be aware of the consequences, and PREPARED.

    7. The right to self-defense is ordained from God. This right is ratified in the 2nd amendment of the US constitution…”shall not be infringed”. I’m curious why you advocate for permission from the government to claim this natural right?

      Don’t get me wrong, I am a firm believer that people should be trained and instructed in proper firearm usage. Previously this was basically a right-of-passage, when children came of age they received this instruction. Through urbanization and liberalization this is no longer the case. The question is this: is the government a potential solution to this issue, or the cause of it?

    8. ou are the reason that LEO’s get a bad wrap.

      First, there should not even be a permit needed to carry a weapon.

      Second, a cop has no more right to carry a weapon than any individual.

  75. I am a retired LEO and have the benefit of years of training but it too am old with health issues. I would never fail to use my weapon against an assault when I was in fear of my life or others in my presence regardless if the bad guy were armed or not.

  76. What a terrific article! I’ve always thought I knew the answers in my head but the way that you broke down the scenarios really gave me1/4 x 3/4 (or 5/8) with rounded edge. pause to think. As a single mom, my main goal for having protection at home was because I had two beautiful daughters and I never wanted us to be helpless should someone breakin. I just applied for my CCW 2 weeks ago. In CA, they say it can take 4 to 6 weeks. The reason I applied was again not ever being in a position of being helpless and not being able to help others. It’s the movie, mall and school shootings that started me thinking about conceal carry. When Americans can be under attack at the most vulnerable locations, how can we not arm ourselves to protect our fellow Americans, family and friends? I’m glad you mentioned the shoplifting scenario because it made me stop and think what’s the best way to react in that situation?
    I think just because we are licensed to conceal carry, it doesn’t give us the right to become the police. We have the right to bear arms and I believe we have the right to use those arms when there’s imminent danger on anyone’s life.

    1. Have you ever tries to make a “citizen’s arrest”? I would liked to have seen it, if you did. Unless you have plenty of back-up to hold the perp and you’d better be righteous with the law or you’ll fail and face criminal charges of kidnapping or unlawful arrest or the like.

  77. HERE’S THE DEAL KIDS…

    Your line in the sand is pretty clear in Washington State.
    After calling the sheriff to my home after turning two trespassers away. Note one hit my wrist with a shovel handle. My Blackhawk then was cocked and pointed at his chest. He only lived because he stopped forward advancement. I had about two lbs on the trigger. The second trespasser was a bit shocked.

    The sheriff showed up… The trespassers were my next door neighbors, how fun is that… The sheriff told me that FIRST it has to be a situation where any “reasonable person” would feel the need to shoot as well. The clear thing you have to tell them is “I had no choice my life was in danger… I had no time I had to pull and shoot instantly.”
    STOP THERE and LAWYER UP. NO MORE TALKING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

    The sheriff told me if you say I had time to think about it, your hosed, get a big bucks lawyer. WHAT you say is the difference between jail and not.

    The Law says about individual citizens …

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

    NOW here is a clear line in the sand in Mason County WA.

    State Sen. Tim Sheldon of rural Potlatch WA, no stranger to public controversy, has stirred another pot with comments that people in his 35th district are well-armed and willing to shoot intruders.

    He repeated his reference to intruders getting a “hot lead enema” Friday morning in the wings of the Senate.

    Sheldon, a Democrat, had told the Shelton-Mason County Journal weekly newspaper earlier this week that he thinks the county’s well-armed residents can better withstand budget cuts to police services than residents in other counties.

    “There is no bag limit,” he told reporter Kevan Moore. “There’s always an open season on criminals in Mason County. … I think the Mason County citizens are very well aware of how to protect themselves in a situation that might need a response.”

    Basically stand and get shot is the situation is your turn to get shot.. OR maybe run so you can be tired and shot. (laughing)

  78. We can only speculate, on what we would do regarding getting involved. First, of it’s me or my loved ones, no problem, to bad for the bad guy. If someone comes into a convenience store, not getting wacko or harming anyone, let them have the cash. IF imminent danger is obvious gotta do what I gotta do. If I see a guy for example beating a woman or kid NO weapon present, can’t shot the creep, call 911 and try to secure the guy? This is tough, I’m in my 60’s not in the shape I was 20 years ago. The law is really sorta plain and clear. You can’t shoot unarmed people, can’t shoot someone on the back running from as hold-up. UNLESS you’re in a situation you or those you are with are gonna die, or a third party (person) is gonna die by a weapon, keep out holstered, call 911.

  79. HERE’S THE DEAL KIDS…

    Your line in the sand is pretty clear in Washington State.
    After calling the sheriff to my home after turning two trespassers away. Note one hit my wrist with a shovel handle. My Blackhawk was cocked and pointed at his chest. He only lived because he stopped forward advancement. I had about two lbs on the trigger. The second trespasser was a bit shocked.

    The sheriff showed up… The trespassers were my next door neighbors, how fun is that… The sheriff told me that FIRST it has to be a situation where any reasonable person would feel the need to shoot as well. The clear thing you have to tell them is “I had no choice my life was in danger… I had no time I had to pull and shoot instantly.”
    STOP THERE and LAWYER UP. NO MORE TALKING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

    The sheriff told me if you say I had time to think about it, your hosed, get a big bucks lawyer. WHAT you say is the difference between jail and not.

    The Law says about individual citizens …

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

    NOW here is a clear line in the sand in Mason County WA.

    State Sen. Tim Sheldon of rural Potlatch WA, no stranger to public controversy, has stirred another pot with comments that people in his 35th district are well-armed and willing to shoot intruders.

    He repeated his reference to intruders getting a “hot lead enema” Friday morning in the wings of the Senate.

    Sheldon, a Democrat, had told the Shelton-Mason County Journal weekly newspaper earlier this week that he thinks the county’s well-armed residents can better withstand budget cuts to police services than residents in other counties.

    “There is no bag limit,” he told reporter Kevan Moore. “There’s always an open season on criminals in Mason County. … I think the Mason County citizens are very well aware of how to protect themselves in a situation that might need a response.”

    Basically stand and get shot is the situation is your turn to get shot.. OR maybe run so you can be tired and shot. (laughing)

  80. As a former State Trooper I know the law only favors a shooting if you are protecting yourself, family or home. Shooting any other time is dangerous and is to be discouraged. ANYTIME you shoot someone else YOU are probably going to be sued in civil court. A defense attorney will probably want $50,000 or more to defend you. THINK ABOUT IT.

  81. As a 76 year old veteran I offered to give my life for my country, my family, and its citizens. I will face the consequences if need be to protect any innocent person who is under attack. BUT, I will not shoot at fleeing shoplifters, bank robbers, or anyone who is not threatening me or anyone else; that is stupid and brings the anti-gun crowd down on all of us.

  82. Great job posting a picture with the caption “You witness a kidnapping at the local park. Is it ok to use deadly force?” and then never even attempting to address that question in the article. Brilliant.

  83. I would use my weapon to protect anyone who was threatened with deadly force.

    I would not use it to protect property or animals.

  84. I would only use deadly force to protect myself and my loved ones. I often imagine the ironic scenario of intervening and finding out that the victim I tried to save is a staunch anti-gunner and has been voting to abolish my 2nd. amendment rights.

    1. I agree with your feelings about the anti-gun people… however, we don’t have 2nd amendment rights. The 2nd amendment is limits on “public serve-ants” they swear an oath to the Constitution… we do not. Read the Bill of rights and it will make more sense. Our rights come from God, not our serve-ants.

    2. I 2nd that. All anti-gun people I talk to think a CHC license holder will draw and shoot at any criminal. That a CHC person will act like police and try to arrest everyone. They do not understand it is for defense only. A CHC holder does not automatically draw and start shooting at an armed robber. A CHC holder only draws to shoot to protect lives. Liberals are ignorant. And some conservatives too.

    3. Good point. CHL holders do not have a “duty to pfotect” as do LEO’s. We jave the right to ptotect ourselves and those with us. NO requirement to intervene

    4. @Ron and Kenn

      Agree 100%. The antis are so out of touch with reality and so ignorant of how seriously we all take the responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon, that they say the most ignorant and foolish things imaginable.

      I remember the campaign against Kroger because they refuse to initiate a No Guns policy. There was a picture of a teen with a skateboard and an adult with an AR. The caption said something like “Which of these two look more dangerous and which is prohibited in Kroger?” I had to shake my head because I would much rather shop in a store with a responsible and legal gun owner carrying his gun than with a bunch of teens skateboarding up and down the aisles.

    5. Nothing in life is perfect. Or always fair. I will protect a human life whenever possible even if they are liberal atheists and work for the Obama administration or the Clinton Foundation! God will forgive them their sins… if they live long enough to repent.

  85. Pretty clear to me…..don’t draw your weapon unless you are ready to protect yourself, family, or friend in a life threatening situation. Brandishing will get you jail time as well as possibly killed. Call 911 if feasible. I have the NRA insurance policy with the Second Call Defense Rider. It’s expensive but I would not leave home, armed, without it.

  86. For me it’s fairly easy. I’m an old guy with a bum back and a bum heart. I am not going to be beaten nor even laid a had on. If that means spending the rest of my retirement behind bars so be it. As for someone else, a rape or beating in progress a guy with a gun I will get involved.

    I wonder, Has anyone heard if there has ever been a law suite brought because a good guy could have intervened and saved a life but did not act?

    1. (Old guy#2) No sir, I think that would be hard to find. But, It does say something about Right & Wrong. Also, I thought I`d mention, In Texas, We are the “Only” State in the Country of ALL other states that Allow Civilian Carry that Does NOT have “Immunity of Civil Litigation in a self defense shooting”.
      So, If I`m at home and someone kicks in my door and comes at me with a Machete IF I shoot OR Kill him/Her I WILL Face a civil trial. The “Perps” Family will (If need be) prodded by a lawyer to “Get a piece of the Action” I will have to get a Lawyer That will probably win my Civil case, If I`m cleared by the D.A. or “Justified” However My lawyer, For doing such a great job, Will then TURN ON ME and Lean on Everything I`ve worked my whole life to have. ALL Other states (Except Tx) Has this Immunity in a justifiable shooting. We just got “Open Carry” Beginning in 2016. I`d take this Immunity over Open carry 8 days a week (That`s Twice on Sun). This was no Oversight or Accident. Texas is HUGE On Suing. As we`re Governed by Lawyers This is SET UP BY TEXAS Lawyers FOR Tx. Lawyers. so SOMEONE Will profit from my Misfortune. Luckily I found this out without having to Experience it. But,m There`s a LOT Of Texans that don`t know about this. They don`t mention it in the Gun Licensing course.
      So, If you see me Running down the street with a 1911 .45 in my hand, While looking over my shoulder….You`ll say, “There he goes, Trying to keep from losing his House”………Great Huh?

    2. Read Texas law cprc 83.001. While anyone CAN sue you if you were adjudged to have lawfully used your right to self defense that is a slam dunk dismissalof the case aagainstyou.

    3. Replying to my reply:
      Or worse yet, Someone like the “Home depot lady” sees me running with a gun in my hand, And cranks off a few at me as a “Concerned Citizen” Helping the Police rid the area of crime.
      Many people across the Country “Think” we are “Obligated” to carry a gun in Texas. We have some of the Toughest laws in the Country, AND, Without that Immunity, We have to chose Death or Poverty in a nanosecond, Should we use our weapon. So to get back on topic. I would have to intervene if Someone`s life was at stake, I could`nt live with myself if I did`nt and ANYONE got killed Stranger or not, If they were in the Right & in need of help. Dumb I guess, But God will sort it out.

    4. @ Handcannon72vet,

      Not true at all. I am a Texan as well as a LEA and must correct your outrageous misstatements. There is in-fact numerous self-defense protections written throughout the Texas Penal Code which guard Texans and provide exclusive immunity from both criminal and civil litigation. A quick search of the Texas Penal Codes and one could easily find this…

      “CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE: Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.”

      The Texas Penal Code even has its own versions of the “Stand Your Ground / Castle Doctrine” which extends liability protection beyond the boundaries of your home. These can be found under the Texas Penal Code §9.31 (governing the justified use of non-deadly force) and §9.32 (governing the justified use of deadly force).

    5. I stand Corrected! ………..And Thanks!
      I`m too old to run anyway But, Too, It`s been a while sense anybody`s shot at me.

    6. OG – amen! Too old to care about fighting, too crippled ip to run. Just shoot ’em, let God sort it out!????????

  87. As deadly force the gun should be used ONLY as a last resort and to protect LIFE, not property. Otherwise we do the same as we would if we had no weapon. Use of mace, pepper spray, et al is a good strategy when use of a gun is not indicated.

    1. Good advice.

      I carry the Kimber PepperBlaster II even when I CC my gun so I’ll have a non-lethal alternative.

    2. That may be a mistake, the way the law is written in many states – they will try to prosecute you for using your firearm and not the non-lethal alternative first, regardless of the situation. The conceal carry license is not a license to kill, but rather “dissipate the danger”, so in many places – unloading 16 rounds into someone will get you a murder charge, or not going to a lesser form of response, if available. Thereby the problem – “Why did you not use your less-than-lethal” protection – were you trying to kill the person?” We know from carrying each day that you may have a couple seconds to decide what your response will be, if you are lucky – normally, not fast enough to choose between them. Because you really don’t know if the non-lethal will stop the person (i.e. Pepper spray), or if they will respond will lethal force against you as THEIR response. We of course understand why Police respond they way they do – even trained it is difficult to determine response levels. Something to think about. So, as a choice – use one or another, but I personally wouldn’t take the chance that a prosecutor was going to try and make his career off of my case.

  88. the liberal mindset and the states prosecutors , have rendered any self defense a criminal act..which you must prove otherwise….the only reason to be armed is to protect YOU and yours…not anyone else…remember ‘others’ have the same right to bear arms as you do, and THEY choose not to….so be it…..imho

  89. Truth be told, if it were me and all the witnesses were black and the per was black I wouldn’t do a thing til he actually pointed to me.I would let the guy kill everyone there.I don’t need to deal with liberal prosecutors and stupid worthless scum matters.
    This should be a wake up call to the black community.clean up your own crap.

  90. I’ll act as soon as I conclude that my life or the life of my family members are threatened. Thats it. Additionally I’ll apply the same conclusion to anyone that is hurt or injured. In todays society the government regards citizens as subjects managed by the ideology in power and a legal system that regards civilian responders as menacing, intervening and obstructing law enforcement and gualified first responders.
    By the numbers, what the heck is that? Its all about the pervailing out look and political enviormment the incident occurs. Yeah, I hear Chicago. I haven’t heard the fat lady sing!

  91. I have CC all my life, legal and illegal 35+ years.Some rules and laws can get you killed, you must decide which ones to obey and or follow.

    AND REMEMBER, Bad guy’s don’t EVER care about any laws or rules.

    Shoot straight, shoot often.

  92. The question is “would I use deadly force to stop a child abduction?” (Or even an adult abduction, to be fully honest; and, is it an abduction or simply a recalcitrant child with an insensitive parent?)

    The answer lies somewhere in the middle of the question. When will deadly force be required? Will it ever be required if my presence alone will halt the abduction? Will “brandishing” my weapon be sufficient (yes, I know what can happen with “brandishing”)? Will I have to shoot to stop the abduction?

    My answer is, with my hand on my weapon (no brandishing, just implication of armed citizen), will I be able to end the event? If I am attacked because of my “interference”, and I see any kind of weapon coming at me, then yes, I am going to draw and fire three shots. Hips and head, kids, hips and head.

    1. You have just asserted an irresponsible and at best dangerous statement…I hope you were joking “Hips, Head, Kids” ? To put it mildly, you need to fire your trainer and get reliable and responsible instruction for how to stop a threat. That is almost as bad as a comment I heard one time “I will just shoot this guy in the knee so it immobilizes him”. Don’t put your life in mortal jeopardy for untested and unreliable tactics. Get trained, be safe.

  93. I would intervene on the convenience store robbery, but pulling the trigger is like second guessing the situation. This is while I feel this way. This is Illinois. You can expect law enforcement to hold you at the same standard or a higher standard on the use of deadly force. Everything has to go from A to Z in a matter of nano seconds before pulling the trigger in Illinois or one will find themselves in trouble. One thing in the shooters favor is the armed robber took the clerk to the backroom, but if the armed robbers trigger finger was not the trigger and the safety off the shooter is in a whole lot of trouble.
    The shoplifter I would have taken pictures of the vehicle with my cell phone and would not have pull out a firearm.

  94. When I decided to get my permit to carry in Texas, I spent a lot of time thinking about exactly when I would use my weapon and when I would not use my weapon. Obviously, when I could not guarantee that anyone behind the possible target would be harmed if I was to miss the evil doer, I could not present and shoot. Next, I decided to limit my use of my weapon to (a) my safety, (b) safety of my family and friends who happen to be with me at the time of an incident. While this seems simple, the more you actually go through possible scenarios in your mind it quite often isn’t cut and dried. So:

    – If I am walking by or driving by where ever and I see some dangerous violence going down or I notice that someone with a gun drawn is entering a store, and I can easily walk or drive away and call 911, that is what I will do. I will not run to the sound of gun fire. It is much too easy to be mistaken for a bad guy unless you are dressed as a police officer. In Texas it IS LEGAL to literally act as a police office would and charge in and protect life and property. However the dynamic nature of these scenarios makes it a very dangerous thing to do. Sorry, I’m not an LEO.

    – If I am within very close range of an armed (clubs, knives, guns) evil doer who is either (a) threatening violence or (b) actually committing violence, I will take action. In a situation where you are intimately involved due to proximity, and the evil doer can seriously hurt you very quickly. You have to present and neutralize the problem as quickly as possible.

    1. I attended our town’s citizen’s police academy.
      The topic came up about what off-duty, out-of-uniform police officers would do.
      What they said they were taught in the academy is: “Be a good witness, don’t be a hero.”
      Quite a few police don’t carry off duty (somewhat surprising) and most are very leery of intervention (especially outside of their jurisdiction) – too easy to be mistaken for the bad guy.
      So best guidelines are perhaps do what the police are trained to do.

    2. In our Citizens Police Academy Training, the officers to a person said they carry off duty and especially at places that are most vulnerable to active shooters going unimpeded—when visiting their childrens schools, when going to Disneyland/Amusement Parks, Museums, and a host of other “no weapons allowed” places. As was noted earlier, I too carry the Kimberly Pepper Spray Blaster 2, and have one on me and in my car at all times. Better that than nothing—especially for those pesky road ragers who get out of their cars and have you boxed in at a stoplight and approach your window—-I have had some threatening with pounding fists on the window shouting “I’ll kill you”—seems grounds for a real bullet at times, but a spray (used once) took care of it. Its a dangerous world out there now, and the 3 road rage encounters I have had all would seem to justify a shot fired after feeling great bodily harm was about to be inflicted upon me—however, sitting through it and waiting for the light change and a drive to the Police Station (for those that choose to still follow me), or the pepper spray blast seem better choices…I was scared to death in all 3, and in all 3 there were threats of physical violence and in 2, pounding on window and rattling drivers side door to get at me. One officer told me, after reporting the incident, he would have fired if he was; truly boxed in on purpose, threats of violence were said and displayed and an attempt to get at him/me were made… Maybe I’m a bad driver?

    3. Let me add this scenario, what if you see two people struggling and one is yelling for help. You take action and after the fact, learn the one yelling for help is being arrested by a plain clothes officer. If you act against the officer, regardless of your intentions, you are in interference with public duties (Texas Statute). Narcotics and warrant officers a majority of the time are not in uniform and have a badge hanging on their neck that you might not see.

    4. Wow Dan you made me remember an incident very close to that I was involved in years ago. Fortunately I helped the right guy but i never even considered what might have happened. I guess my point in mentioning it is to let people know that it really can happen.

  95. First, some tools for everyone who carries concealed: get yourselves educated on the laws everywhere you might carry. It’s not perfect because it comes out once a year, but at $15.00 it’s a great resource:

    “Travelers Guide to the Firearms Laws of the Fifty States”
    http://www.gunlaws.com/index.htm

    Next:

    Get the best possible legal defense package that IS NOT INSURANCE. Remember, it is illegal to insure against an unlawful act. So many of the self defense legal help outfits out there CANNOT pay your legal bills if you are accused (unjustly?) of illegally using your firearm. Use the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network:

    http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

    This outfit is very, very different from all others in this category; indeed, they are NOT INSURANCE. They have actual cash money sitting in a bank ready to pay for your legal defense if, in their opinion, it was a justified shooting. I’m not going to go over all of the advantages of their service, you should carefully read the information on their site. If it helps you with this decision, at the time I joined several years ago Massad Ayoob was on the board of directors.

  96. It is never a question. Either the conditions exist which require intervention using deadly force or it doesn’t. If a person doesn’t know how to quickly identify the difference, they should refrain from carrying outside their home until they are certain they have learned the difference.

    Gaining the knowledge to deal with such a quandary is actually far less complicated than other scenarios we are more likely to face on a daily bases. For example – something ran in front of your car, do you hit the breaks or not?

    Emergency breaking is a rather complex snap decision because the experts say your actions should vary depending upon variables such as the size of the animal, the size and distance of vehicles behind you or whether it is a human and not an animal. Even then the experts say the animal’s size and road conditions call for varying techniques as to whether you should break and swerve or maintain a straight line.

    In contrast, deciding whether a situation calls for YOUR intervention using deadly force is much more simple.

  97. A situation occurred some time ago in Texas, a legally armed man walking through a mall parking lot come upon a man holding a woman against a car an d brutally beating her. Legally armed man yells and tells the beater to step away. The beater does, then turns on the man, who then draws his legal weapon and orders the beater to stop, or he would shoot him. Beater continues, legally armed man shoots and kills the other. A prosecutor, trying to make a reputation form himself, charges the man with premeditated murder and gets a conviction. Why? 2 reasons. 1, The beating was considered a domestic issue and the police should have been called. 2, When the shooter warned the beater that if if didn’t stop, he would be shot, became a premeditated act as soon as the warning was issued. Conviction was later overturned, but still, lost time , time in jail and defense costs. Just show what can happen, even if you are in the right.

    1. This went before a Jury? If so, Congressman Trey Gowdy was right about a statement he made “as a Prosecutor,You have to convince 12 people that were`nt smart enough to get out of Jury Duty, The Guilt of an offender”. This case you mentioned sounds like exactly what he was referring to. That`s nuts! But the law says “No matter how little time you have to “Think” is premeditation”. But it also shows his obvious Hesitation to fire, (Should) have been considered. A special Circumstance. Someone fell asleep at the Wheel here. If it was left only before a Judge, He should be Removed from the Bench and/or disbarred. Talk about “Gray areas” That is a damn “Coin toss”. It`s something that makes you wonder How many truly Innocent people are in Prison. That man will never be the same or recover It`s scary because I live in Texas. You BETTER NOT Shoot anyone in Texas, (Ever) Yet I carry a gun every day all day. Have for over 40 yrs. If I use my weapon It`s either Death, Prison or Poverty. in a split second. None of which is favorable. PLUS, You`ve killed someone. No one gets off “scott free”. But We should be able to depend on our Justice System. But, That is being naive.

    2. Handcannon72vet. I carried ‘downloads’ in a revolver, for years, to avoid over penetration, should I actually had to use my weapon in self defense,that was until a local Prosecuting Attorney, that I was knew told me that if I even killed someone with these ‘special hand loads’, I could face 1st Degree Murder, because it could be shown that I carried a weapon and special ammunition for the express intent of killing someone. Sad to say, that he told me the same case could be made against those that carry hollow-points in their weapons. So, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. There’s is a very old saying;” I rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.” Or which is better, to be dead or alive and in prison?

  98. I went through the Oakland PD academy in 1970. Instructor said, “Make the decision now that you will use deadly force to protect your life (easy) or the lives of others. You can’t hesitate on the street.”

    There was a shooting in Carson City at an iHop restaurant a few years back. AK47 converted to full auto. Guy started in the parking lot, shot someone on a motorcycle before going into the iHop to shoot more. There was small restaurant maybe 40 yards north and the owner heard a saw the shooter. He had a revolver inside the store, but chose not to get it or take any action save to take cover. That was probably a logical call, even though he had a high concrete curb for complete cover, a revolver vs AK47 isn’t great odds.

    I’ve thought about that, a lot. Several people later died inside the restaurant, as the gunman met no resistance. Had I been there I would have taken cover behind that concrete wall too, right alongside that owner. But given the opportunity, would have carefully taken the shot, the shooter wasn’t focused in that direction but was standing, spraying the area with full auto bursts, hit several store windows before heading inside where he shot some National Guard troops sitting at a table.

    I have a good friend who will not touch a gun, I’ve tried reasoning – no way. There are good people who can’t, won’t, or will not defend themselves. “Sheep”, not in any way implying anything negative, just their nature. If you carry a gun, you’ve doubtless made the decision that you will use it to protect yourself and your family.

    Perhaps a more selfless decision is to take that a step further and decide you would use your weapon to defend others, even though it may put your own life at further risk. The selfless defense of your fellow man. Sheepdog. I’ve never met a cop who wasn’t one.

  99. Where to draw the line? My line is a threat to life or limb no matter what the threatening weapon(anything from a gun to hands or feet). Also some one in my residence weapon or not due to the fact that there is not any where in my residence that the distance is outside the distance that a person can move in a split second. Therefore they are a threat. Even with a threat you still must consider what is between or possibly between and beyond the threat,and once you decide to shoot only shoot until the threat is removed. IE you fire once and the threatening person stops or turn and runs, the threat is removed.

  100. I can exclude any worries over training and I think that applies to almost all of us reading this forum. Moving onto the next question as to what constitutes “my own personal direct physical potential involvement” is actually quite simple: Is my life or the life of someone directly within my immediate environment in imminent danger? Applying my own personal required criteria to what I just “read” *absent the empirical details which may be subject to change*, I too would have taken action against the perp precisely because 1) perp drew a GUN directly within my immediate environment meaning that I or family member may die soon or be grievously injured and or 2) the clerk directly in my environment is about to be executed which I can either A) callously say “oh well it’s not my problem” or B) defend fellow human life “within my immediate environment” which I have been taught to do since a youngster well before CCW was even legal (if not the gun I chase the perp down with blunt object and try and inflict CNS damage). Establish your SOP before leaving your dwelling and there’s no second thoughts if God Forbid one actually must confront such a reality which even for Police is statistically rare…

  101. Art. Illinois does allow conceal and carry permits. They require out-of- state license/permit holders to take their course and be range qualified once a year. Illinois has a weak Castle Doctrine, and one should be insured. Illinois self defense policies are similar to California.

  102. If you have possession of a firearm for self defense you must know your state laws on the use of deadly physical force for your defense or the defense of others. Google it now and study it. If you use your firearm your use will be tested against the statute and if you fall outside, then you will be prosecuted. State laws vary and what is allowed in one state may not be allowed elsewhere. For example, I live in Oregon. My state law on self defense reads as follows:§ 161.219¹
    Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
    Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

    (1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
    (2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
    (3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]

    The actions of the first defender mentioned in the story above would be justified in Oregon because the robber had committed the felonies of armed robbery and kidnapping( when he forced the female toward the back room at gun point for unknown purposes). The conduct of the second shooter, the woman, was not justified. Too bad she had not read her state’s self defense law. Once you read and understand your state law, you can minimize your legal exposure for an unjustified use of your firearm.

  103. First, if you are uncertain whether or not your gun will function or if your ammunition will be effective, then you’re not ready to carry. Train, practice, prepare.

    Second, it’s a lot more than just knowing how to shoot your gun accurately. It’s creating and embracing the all-around mindset of being an armed citizen who understands the law, thinks clearly, and plans ahead. Anyone with half a brain should, I say should, know that you don’t just start blazing away at a fleeing shoplifter in a vehicle who is not presenting an immediate threat. On the other hand, a nasty guy pointing a gun at innocent people, or at you, is a threat.

    Set up several scenarios and run them through your head to decide how you would react. A shoplifter stealing DVDs or someone trespassing in your pool some night are a heck of a lot different than someone trying to abduct a child, committing armed robbery, or attempting to beat and rape someone in a parking lot. Develop your own Escalation of Force and Rules of Engagement BEFORE you witness a situation. Yeah, there will be unforeseen modifiers to everything, but at least you’ll have a place to start.

    1. AGREE @Mikial,
      He said it all for me training is not a problem that i do ,planning i do ,but like he said know what you are carrying and what the laws are in the state you are in .Going on vacation ? read the laws of all states you will pass through and vacation in they vary from some states to others but he has said the obvious sensible thing about when to use deadly force ,WHEN YOUR LIFE OR THE LIVES OF OTHERS IS IN IMMINENT DANGER .A drug induced man robbibng a store with a gun is 1 i would have done exactly the same thing in, the perp was armed ,he was leading a female employee to back for who knows what and had a firearm (worst threat in my eyes) in his hand and had pointed said firearm at unarmed (so he thought )people =shoot him call ya uscca lawyer and do NOT say a thing to police till he gets there but i need my lawyer to answer any ?’s .

    2. @Damian

      Good point about checking other state’s laws before traveling through them. Both the NRA and the USCCA, and probably other 2A organizations have easy to use pages on their sites that explain each state’s laws.

  104. For a shoplifter? Not even worth the price of my ammo. For public safety and to protect the innocent is another matter.

  105. No shooting are the same, if I am with my family, first is their safety. Then if I can take down a shooter or shooters I will. But I will follow the rules of engagement. I will not fire unless fired upon. Then I will return a hell of a lot of fire power

    1. Agreed, Brother.

      I carry my Glock 21 daily. Your first obligation is to get your family to safety. But if the scum interfere . . . do what you have to do and do it well.

    2. Follow the rules of engagement? Where do you think you are? Vietnam? In the street, if a perv already produced a gun and there is a possibility of him aiming it at you, you can consider yourself as well as death. A person producing a gun in any direction towards you is reason enough to fire. If you wait that first shot of his, you may end up dead, or your loved ones. I dont know where you took your training , but it seems it was in Hollywood. A real gun fight last 2.5 seconds. Are you still thinking of following the ” rules of engagement “??

    3. Brother, What If they don`t miss with that first shot they “Fire upon” you? Personally, I`d rather try to be “one” of the Ones that can show up for court & take my (chances) there.

    1. Illinois was required by a Federal court ruling to issue concealed carry permits. This was the fruit of that wise decision.

    2. Hi Art. Federal Court ordered Illinois to comply and have concealed carry.
      It has been a little over a year now,
      The Illinois government had resisted as long as they could, but unlike some states that make the qualifications ,near impossible to meet, Illinois was reasonable. (surprisingly)

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