General

American Rifle + Pistol Association — A False Flag Operation?

False Flag with Skull and Cross Bones

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The American Rifle + Pistol Association (R+P)—launched July 2, 2013—has billed itself as a “responsible” pro gun organization and wants to open the debate about all things firearms—“A deliberative member forum, which will allow gun owners of all perspectives to openly and candidly share their views.”

False Flag with Skull and Cross Bones
Derived from a military concept, the term false flag means to fly false colors; to provide a false cover while carrying out covert operations and deceiving the enemy or public as to its true agenda.

It does not sound so bad when put that way, but buried a little deeper the R+P goes on to say that it is also available to non-gun owners and media in a “safe harbor” atmosphere of civility and decorum… and claims no political agenda. Is anyone else starting to smell something emanating from the south end of a northbound bull?

Do we really need a moderator and safe harbor to deal with the wisdom and expediency of firearm issues? Worse yet, do we need a third party to moderate, analyze and then hand over the results to the media as a measure of our voice? Much of which is going to be judged electronically. I keep having flashbacks to how search results change every time Google changes it algorithm. Does anyone reading this actually believe that is going to demonstrate our true message and that the mainstream media is going to report the results honestly? Even if R+P reports an accurate view of our message in the first place?

R+P may be nothing more than a false flag operation and an assault on our First and Second Amendment freedoms—regardless of any claimed intent or non-intent. All forums need moderation for certain hate speech and expletives, language that is not appropriate for all readers or is outside the topic of the thread. However, I am concerned about a firearm forum that could be moderated in such a way that it discourages the open and honest passion of gun owners and then sold to the media as our voice.

Whether the R+P is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, an outright gun control group wearing a camouflage coat to disguise itself as a pro gun organization or something less nefarious, it needs to be upfront and honest about what it is and its intended purpose. Many leaders in the firearm community have certainly looked and made their decision. So far, I have not heard any of them to be in favor of R+P.

This fact was recently posed to the R+P during an interview.

“I guess there’s a few Democrats among us,” said R+P president Robert Gelinas. “But the whole idea behind this organization was to actually have a debate… The whole notion of firearms debate isn’t a debate, though. The minute anyone tries to voice any ideas about public safety, it immediately gets shut down and they say: ‘You guys are communist’ and ‘Go to Hell’ and the whole nine yards.”

AmericanRifle and Pistol Association
R+P chairman, Peter Vogt to have previously expressed support for Bloomberg’s Mayors Against Illegal Guns and other gun control campaigns. He now claims he no longer supports those campaigns because they veered from their original mission.

That was all fine until a little digging showed the R+P chairman, Peter Vogt to have previously expressed support for Bloomberg’s Mayors Against Illegal Guns and other gun control campaigns. He now claims he no longer supports those campaigns because they veered from their original mission. Vogt, until recently, was also a resident of Newtown Connecticut and had personal connections to the families of some of the Sandy Hook victims. Gelinas stated the experience helped to shape the group’s position in advocating “sane” gun ownership.

The Devilish Details?

Like so many things, the devil is in the details (as if the previous facts were not already not enough). First, R+P is a for-profit organization, which has applied for a non-profit status as well—nothing unusual there. R+P’s board of directors (the five people who originally funded the company) fills its managerial and leadership roles; not its membership. Half of its message claims what great business minds it has and the other claims no legislative agenda. No legislative agenda…? It will simply judge the collective sentiment of the members on all topics and make them available to the public, media etc. Do you want someone else deciding who can speak, how they can say it and then throwing it all into a magical mixer to decide what the community of gun owners and anti gunners meant?

The American Rifle + Pistol Association can claim it only has a capitalistic and pro gun agenda in mind. Its intentions may be completely honorable and in gun owners best interest. It is only a couple of weeks old, so who knows. What I do know is that there is a lot of danger in the message R+P will eventually deliver; a message it is going to moderate then claim to be yours. I, for one, am simply not that trusting—especially of a start up for profit run by individuals such as Peter Vogt.

Big Data Image
Is this your view of the Second Amendment? R+P could think so and wants to report it.

R+P describes its mission as helping to foster, via deliberative dialogue, SANE gun ownership – which stands for Safety, Advocacy (of its members), Networking and Education. I listened to a recent interview with Gelinas where he walked that back quite a bit and said the initial message had been misinterpreted and R+P was refining the message…

However, whose vision of safety? Is safety eliminating concealed carry and stand your ground laws, limiting the types of weapons or number of rounds in a magazine etc.? R+P claims that is not its intention and that it wants to promote education, ownership and support CCW/CHL laws. R+P could easily go that direction or flip the script based on its algorithm. It leaders certainly have in the past.

The jury is still out on the American Rifle + Pistol Association. R+P sells memberships, but for a limited time you can sign up for free an anonymously. Those memberships will be phased out over time and R+P will require you to buy a membership. However, Gelinas and company hail from the IT world and claim they are big advocates of collecting and compiling “big data.” That seals the deal and ensures R+P is one social network I can do without. I will continue to support the NRA, NAGR, SAF and others that I know and have a history of fighting for my rights.

I have my own voice and do not need the R+P to moderate and report it for me. How about you?

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (49)

  1. Now is not the time to waste resources on unproven groups but a time to regroup and reinforce our defensive positions such as the NRA, RKBA, 2nd Amendment Foundation, and all the other state and local groups promoting weapons ownership.
    We at this time need to remember that old saw, “The best defense is to go on the offense”, and concentrate our efforts where we can inflict the most damage.
    What need does this group fill that cannot be filled by our already existing support organizatiins.?

  2. Just throwing this out there: If becoming a member is free, all of us might want to join it and throw our weight against it. If we can outnumber the others in this organization, it might be a good thing.

    The founders/board members could still ignore the majority of pro-2nd amendment people in R+P, but it would be more difficult. Being a thorn in one’s side sometimes works.

    Instead of ignoring this new organization, we should flood it with like-minded people and possibly take it over from within (or at least control the direction of it). Worth a shot.

    1. It is a good idea, except for a couple of problems. One, they are going to moderate the comments, so they can balance the comments at will. Second, the registrants they get, the more legitimacy we give the platform. Third, the free membership is only for a limited time. After that, they will have your information to sell or use, but you would have to pay to stay on the site. I like where you were headed though! ~ Dave Dolbee

  3. Hey BigMag, thanks for the Nod! Always nice to hear from others about what one has to say. When you get to Alaska give me a shout an we’ll catch a beer or a cupa coffee!

    Col.T. #42, I think your thinking is on the right path. These are certainly all groups on which the future of this and other issues will rest. Education and understanding are the keys.

    Scenters #43, Great formula!!! Its one of those “Wish I had thought of that!!” things.

    One of the many things that I enjoy every day is reading the Shooters Log its Blogs and all your comments. 99.9% of you write with insight, thought and a real concern of the topics you comment on. The 00.1% that write the … Odd or crazy stuff … serve to only focus the spotlight on the rest of your comments. Thanks for the thought provoking, knowledgeable, funny, and often intuitive comments I have found here. Thanks to CTD/SL for providing the forum and format. Just saying, …. Thanks. Pete sends . . .

  4. How sick is it that the government/nsa wants all your information but refuses to tell you they are doing it and refuses to tell Congress what they are doing. It is a rouge agency which should be unfunded immediately. If it hadnt been for Snowden, we wouldnt know. Will be interesting to see how this new site plays on that issue. And, it costs money to join this website?? That smells fishy. They want ALL your information (Credit card, address, etc.) to join a site? I dont think so. Not for me anyhow.

  5. (N+$) x Bloomburg = Gun control …. This formula is as stable as E=Mc2. If Bloomburg is in it, they want your weapon.

  6. Baloney slicing. If they try to take the whole thing their hands will be slapped. If they cut off Peice by Peice eventually they’ll have the entire thing without us realizing what’s happened.

    The gun groups, the REAL ones better start playing hard ball and using their tactics and stratigim methods against them or were going to lose.

    How a movement of veteran soldiers and patriodic Americans can’t seem to beat back these Marxists is beyond me. These people are weasels.

    Promote safe shooting among youths

    Promote gun ownership amoung minorities

    Promote female gun ownership

    Promote gun ownership among the gay community

    Set up groups like democrats for AR15 ownership

    This would guarantee us a victory.

  7. There are strong similarities between firearms and fire. Both are dangerous if not controlled. Just as it’s advisable to teach youngsters to treat fire with respect and how to control it as well as how to respond to fire beyond their control, the same may be said of firearms. Fire is a useful tool, one which should not be banned to any responsible person but kept from the hands of pyromaniacs. The safe handling of firearms should be taught at an early age, and the possession of firearms should be illegal (a lot of good that does) only to criminals and the clinically deranged who represent a hazard to themselves and others. Evildoers have the tactical advantage of being without ethics; they have no inhibition against doing things the law abiding would not do even in the absence of laws. Firearms level the playing field, yielding the advantage to the homeowner in defense of his home and evening the odds against the individual assaulted in public. Laws that prevent the individual from being armed clearly do not prevent the criminal from being armed.

  8. Pete, I made much more sense from your depiction of this R+P scenario than I did from #10`s grammatical extravaganza even after deciphering his spelling issues. I found the whole R+P thing just enough to give me a head ache. I must say though, it`s sure nice to see that there are those of you out here, such as yourself Pete, whom are articulate and intelligent enough to understand as well as explain the reality behind the scenes, as to what is REALLY going on! I`ve never been to Alaska. I`ll be 56 this year, hopefully I`ll see it sooner than later. It looks like a wonderful place to live.

  9. I steadfastly contend those in power who know what may happen, as has happened in the past in our country when the powers that be attempt to disarm the public, have not done the math. Simple as it may be, 50 million gunners in the US vs what, who? The Chinese army, supposed largest in the world at two million troops, couldnt do it. No combination of UN or NATO or even all the armies of the world combined, couldnt do it.
    So you idiots who think ‘gun control’ or confiscation is an option, get out your thinking caps and your calculator. And who would be stupid enough to take command of this ‘force’? NOBODY! You cannot control the airspace when millions of American gunners live near all the airports and bases. Lest someone forgot, in Afghanistan, a bunch of guys on camels defeated the Russians who “Controlled the airspace.” Unless I am badly mistaken even mice have enough sense not to attack a rattlesnake.

  10. Because of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling as follows:

    “The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections. [West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 639]

    The 2nd Amendment being therefore plainly found within the Bill of Rights is therefore forever and ever removed from all “vicissitudes of political controversy”

    It is simply not open to discussion, nor debate. Anything to the Contrary, including the present Executive Branch Offices and Congressionally enacted taxes and restrictions of all sorts are SIMPLY AND PLAINLY TREASON.

    With the admitted IRS, NSA, Bengazi (exposing that the CIA runs Al Qaeda), Legislative Irresponsibility of O’Romney Care, CIA Ariel Spraying, Fast and Furious, and ‘anything else you can think of’ Scandals all over our news, it is clear that anyone who believes in this government anymore as a system of Law is in clear ‘Blue Pill withdrawal’, and needs to be denied another glass of Kool-Aid.

    Any organization which will not talk of the untouchable nature of the Second Amendment, and point out the Treasonous Lawyer Aristocracy who has debated our Rights away, is a Judas Goat, not False Flag.

    The Second Amendment is the enforcement embodiment of Article 61 of the Magna Carta, which gives the ultimate power of governance to THE PEOPLE, first through Petitions for Redress of Grievance, which were driven into virtual non-existance by the Congress who grew weary of THE PEOPLE coming to them).

    Then, if Petitions be despised and ignored, after 40 days, TOTAL and Complete War can be brought against all Rulers, their Agents, comforters, aiders, and their families. Even their little ones. Just like what Briton did to signers of the Declaration of Independence.

    For this reason, as the enforcement means of the Right of THE PEOPLE to self-governance, IT IS NOT OPEN TO DISCUSSION.

    Take that Piers Morgan, you Creepy-Ass Cracker.

  11. Not sure I see the difference between this new forum and all the existing gun forums. Does anybody want to say on gun forums that opposing views are tolerated? Personally I am bummed that the gun owners who do not believe in black helicopters or that the President is a muslim kenyan get shouted down with the paranoia that seems to be a keystone to modern gun ownership.

    Jeff

  12. GOA and JFPO are both no nonsence pro-gun organizations. I am proud to be a member of both. But please don’t downplay all that NRA has done over the years. Their leadership receive death threats daily. This tells me that many idiots fear them and their work. I, for one, will continue to support them. I am proud to be a Life member of NRA.

  13. Gun Ban Results In Dozens of Tragic Deaths

    BOSTON — National guard units seeking to confiscate
    a cache of recently banned assault rifles were ambushed on
    April 19th by elements of a paramilitary extremist faction.
    Military and law enforcement officials estimate that 72
    were killed and more than 200 injured before government
    forces were compelled to withdraw.
    Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor
    Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was
    made up of local citizens, has links to the radical
    right-wing tax protest movement.
    Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of
    vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The
    governor, who described the group’s organizers as
    “criminals,” issued an executive order authorizing the
    summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with
    the government’s efforts to secure law and order.
    The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed
    widespread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over
    recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on
    military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in
    the week. This decision followed a meeting earlier this
    month between government and military leaders at which
    the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of
    illegal arms.
    One government official, speaking on condition of
    anonymity, pointed out that “none of these people would
    have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and
    turned over their weapons voluntarily.”
    Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating
    a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However,
    troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington
    met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had
    been tipped-off regarding the government’s plan.
    During a tense standoff in Lexington’s town park,
    National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the
    government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender
    and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a
    single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
    extremists.
    Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.
    Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces
    rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before
    order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding
    areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith,
    finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered
    a retreat.
    Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support
    the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore
    law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender
    of those responsible for planning and leading the attack
    against the government forces. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere,
    and John Hancock, who have been identified as “ringleaders”
    of the extremist faction, remain at large.
    * * *
    Oh, I forgot to give the date including the year (but you
    already know, don’t you?). It was April 20, 1775.

  14. So R&B is linked to the Sandy hook “story” ?
    A sad story indeed.. But there are other sad children’s stories, we need to include in this discussion with them?
    The fact is: single political party GOVERNMENTS, are guilty of the worlds largest genocides of children. The Nazi party killed 1.5 million children. The list goes on.. Cambodia, USSR, China.. Yes, that list includes COMMUNISTS!

    WE are moderates, defending a balance of powers. The people defending our liberties from radical parties.
    We are the defenders of children & free children.
    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005142

  15. Thanks for the info. This R & P sounds like another political party forming.
    A mob, self proclaimed, posing as the righteous civil ones.
    With an agenda to impose their elite debate results, onto the rebels who “say you guys are communists”
    They need to be exposed.
    There is no political “party” in the Constitution.. It is “We” the people and our “Rights” which “shall not be infringed”
    No debate needed.. to decipher Liberty.

  16. I think that Kim #20 makes a most valid point, if not THE most valid point, that being Rule #1 in researching any organization: FOLLOW THE MONEY! Research rules 2 thur 10 refer to other paths of research but each end with he reminder to. REFER TO RULE #1.
    You really want to know what an organization is founded on and in?? Start with Rule #1.

  17. Smells too fishy to me; could be a front for Holder and Co. I am a former Marine and Life Member of the NRA.

    God Bless the USA!

    Semper Fi!

  18. This whole venture is a FARCE, and will be quietly funded by liberal interests. I can pretty much GUARANTEE that they are right now hiring a pack of young liberals to “moderate” this forum. It will be anything BUT an open discussion.

    Furthermore, they will have a room full of young liberals who will POSE as gun owners. They will use leftist terms for gun control like “common sense measures”. They will begin their posts with carefully worded phrases like “As a responsible gun owner, I feel that we need to limit access to…”.

    This group will be the new media darling, and will report that “gun owners support (fill in whatever liberal anti-gun legislation)”. You will see news headlines stating that gun owners agree with the left. There will be fictitious “polls” to back these claims. The liberals KNOW they have most of the media in the bag, and that they can sway public opinion with LIES.

  19. R & P’s stuff doesn’t mind being at odds with the Founding Fathers. Of course, the NRA has had their fingerprints over every piece of gun-control legislation since 1968. For real, no compromise pro-gun advocacy, check out Gunowners of America, and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. The rest can just pound sand.

  20. Just ignore this bogus organization. I am a member of both the NRA and the Unified Sportsmen of Florida, two legitimate groups that look out for the rights of law-abiding, gun-owning citizens. This just smells like liberal/socialists to me pretending to be otherwise. Thanks for the information CTD.

  21. I just dont think those guys want to interpret, “…..shall not be infringed.” as good ole plain common ordinary everyday English. But twisting it around wont accomplish a thing in the minds of true American citizens/patriots.

  22. THANK YOU DAVE for this article, this is a big help.

    R+P is a satanic shill, they can and will go to hell.

    one quote though at the end:

    “R+P is one social network I can do without. I will continue to support the NRA, NAGR, SAF and others that I know and have a history of fighting for my rights.”

    why don’t you list GOA in that? the Pratts have said a lot more truths than the compromising NRA has. i don’t hate the NRA but they’re WEAK by comparison to the GOA in terms of what the NRA has stood for, against, and compromised on. NRA has more members, that’s a sad reflection on Americans and gun owners in particular, but the masses continue to be idiots and i keep shouting loudly to wake them the hell up.

    JOIN THE GOA, read about them and you’ll quickly see why; i can almost guarantee if you gun owners read up on the GOA you will join, i know you’re not stupid you’re just still partially asleep.

    Here’s an example of what i mean that gun owners are still partially asleep: supporting concealed carry is good, but why do we support a required registration to concealed carry? look at the results, they are finally now trying to post our names and addresses on interactive maps to everyone. the atf has a file on every person who has a concealed permit, they have a file on every gun you buy at a store, why is any of this acceptable? why are cops allowed to own full auto, short rifles, and sound suppressors, but we can’t own them unless we sign forms saying they can raid our home at any hour of the day without any kind of reason? it shouldn’t be this way, we shouldn’t tolerate it. 100% of the 1934 nfa should be eliminated. LET’S STOP COMPROMISING WITH SATANISTS. wake up FULLY.

  23. I don’t believe I’m even going to give this a chance. It smells like a “Mayors Against Illegal Guns” thing. I’m against “Illegal Guns” as well but except for a few regulated firearms, guns are not illegal. The 2nd Amendment tells me so.

    I’m an NRA instructor and I’m all for safety and, as far as the “safety” aspect goes, who has done more for firearms safety than the NRA? (That vile organization that brought you the “Eddie Eagle” gun safety program for elementary school aged kids, the 10 commandments of gun safety, now whittled down to four rules and yes, even concealed carry, not to mention all the other “safety information” along the way)

    I would guess, if this organization survives, it’ll be a forum for the anti-gun crowd to spew their emotionally driven “for the children” rhetoric rather than any “enforce the existing 20,000 laws” common sense.

    I’m with Mr. Dolbee on this one.

    BTW. The “Mayors for Illegal Guns” bus showed up in Minneapolis this week and drew a massive crowd of 150 which, after seeing a small blurb on the news, probably included the journalists and their camera and sound people. Not even any protesters. It was a non-event.

  24. I can’t exactly figure out what it is… Social research project, AstroTurf organization, misguided effort at gun control or someone who thought Hightower’s Armadillo had the right idea. — David — August 3, 2013 @ 7:55 am

    Strictly an Astroturf for Bloomberg’s MAIG.

  25. Have a ‘conversation’ my horse’s patoot. I’m done with talking to seditionists. The damned fools seem to think they can start some kind of ‘war to take the guns away’ and then somehow win that war when they have no guns. Molon Labe M-F-ers!

  26. I, too, have my own voice, but it is not very loud, so having a forum in which to share my thoughts is important. I conceal carry and am concerned about preparing for possible home invasion and personal defense of myself and loved ones (even other innocents) when threatened by those prepared to violently intrude in my/our lives. R+P in not a forum for my voice because they seek to pervert what I would say, would argue it into meaninglessness, or report what the believe appropriate to meet their needs, irrespective of my input (they are computer literate, after all!)

    I appreciate being warned of R+P and its agenda.

  27. As I read the article and comments, it got me to thinking and it comes into the form of a question.
    Has anyone researched who funded this “new” organization( not counting Peter Vogt)? Once the person is found out, will show what they are truly up to.
    The Mayors Against Guns did announce they were no longer, which leads me to ponder if they really have gone their seperate ways. The M.A.G. were hitting a brick wall not just with us gun owners, their criminal activities of each Mayor also brought them down, it could be possible they are trying a “different’ approach to their anti-gun scheme.
    My thoughts, not going to give this organization any chance..Whatever they are selling, I’m not buying..

  28. They’re so desirous of debate that they’ve blocked, banned and deleted hundreds of people on their Facebook page who questioned them in any way.

    Their ‘Safe Harbor’ forum still doesn’t exist after a month.

    And isn’t it convenient that they pop up right before an election season w/ ‘membership’ prices just below that of the NRA?

  29. I can’t exactly figure out what it is… Social research project, AstroTurf organization, misguided effort at gun control or someone who thought Hightower’s Armadillo had the right idea. There FAQ sounds like it was put together by a marketiod who just got fired from a .bomb start up. I am not going to pass judgement on them (yet). I have a bit more trust for groups like IoFA. But if you want another group that is non-NRA and definitely not an AstroTurf organization, there is the LGC (http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/, not a member just aware of it).

    David

  30. This line from their site says it all – no self-defense if so decreed by gov’t:

    “For example, if a state does not want its citizens discharging a firearm within a metropolitan area other than within a sanctioned sporting venue or in an act of self-defense, and passes a law to that effect – that is not tyranny.”

  31. SANE, anytime you Politically Correct something, it has the effect of pouring baking soda on acid.. The subject is neutralized in peoples minds and easily then forgotten. No more heated discussion necessary. Subject becomes benign, nonthreatening.. pro and or con. You just walk away with the false sense of peace a Shangri La like experience. Like a neutered former watchdog lays around fat and lazily satisfied. Sounds like what The American Rifle + Pistol Association is. Not too mention in the well thought out name. NRA members see The American Rifleman magazine. What the anti-gunner see’s is magazine limitations, i.e. pc..

  32. Has the NRA spoken on this questionable ‘association’? Maybe they should. Best example of Bloomer’s irrational statements was a group of young troops in Afghanistan and it was in response to his statement that “18, 19 year old teens are not responsible enough to own guns”. And the caption was, “Who does he think is protecting his rich pansy ass?”

  33. Hey Bill !! How are things in Texas this summer? I was away overseas for a bit but back in the US now. Visiting friends in GA. Then heading west in a few weeks before heading back to the far north. Maybe we could hookup for a beer in my travels?
    I’ve read comment 10, three times now, and still can’t quite understand what Hide Behind is trying to get unhidden! As I like to belive that what someone has to say, regardless of how it may be delivered, has value and a nugget or two of knowlage, I look for it. However,
    I’m missing HB’s point (s)? completely other than that he or she is … upset … . The spelling dosn’t help much either. Anyone want to take a shot at a 50 words or less interpatation of HB’s comment? No? . . . Ok.
    Jim P. – I think your logic is spot on. I went back to their site an went thru it again because of the points you made. Its always in he details isn’t it? I agree this is assuredly a “pass”.

  34. I am definitely going to give it a pass. From their website:

    R+P was NOT created to promote a single ideology or political agenda. In fact, it is not a political organization of any kind, nor a trade lobby, and especially not the voice of the firearms industry – rather, it is meant to be a new media platform engineered to consolidate and amplify the cumulative voice of its membership, expressed publicly and civilly in a revolutionary new type of online public square. R+P’s core mission is to help foster, via deliberative dialogue, SANE™ gun ownership – which stands for Safety, Advocacy (of our members), Networking, and Education. — Emphasis Added

    That sounds so much like the claim that the NRA is just a front for the gun manufacturers, and all NRA members are dupes.

    Another quote:

    Firearms Management is the phrase R+P uses to refer to those initiatives and programs individual communities employ to genuinely improve public safety while safeguarding its citizens’ Second Amendment rights. “One size fits all” solutions rarely have any demonstrable value. Each community has its own unique needs, risks, threats, and available resources to address those issues best. Thus, one of the key values of a nationwide networking forum for gun owners is for the citizens of communities who have discovered good and effective solutions to be able to share those solutions with similar citizens of communities who might be experiencing many of the same challenges.

    Basically that is a call for each individual city, county, or municipal area to be able to make their own laws. So City A could have a law that says unless the business has a sign that says CHL is legal you can’t carry. But City B allows CHL but for a gun-buster sign. How would you know you are breaking the law. Especially if City A’s shopping district intermingles with City B’s? That is why most states have incorporated (forced the rules downward) on the individual state governments.

    If you look, you can see clues that their philosophy are anti-gun.

  35. Too many enthymeme arguments built upon memes that were and are still now no more than lies damned lies and your damned right they are lies; all being put forth by those who put foryh an aura of being level headed.
    Propaganda is what killed this nation, that and the ignorance of those who never thought to question such things as “a melting pot” or being a a big or little r republic or big or little d democracythey just assume buy your guns and when it is time you good americans will turn them in wether you are from Alaska or some African ntion you better melt into the New worlds Order of thinking anf forget your gun fetishes or their anti guns bs.d because they had a job that they were free pepple.
    Sorry folks but guns at home is np longer a constitutional issue and it does little good to talk as if without major major bribes congress will let you keep yours.
    This natoon is far far and away from the percieved reality of thosee patriots who spout juvenile history propaganda

    We got over 70 million retired military and government workers that never lived in a democracy or a republic anf yet they want to talk of fondiing a solution; A solution to keep your guns to shoot those who do not melt into their society.

  36. Dave, I ran across the R&P site a short time ago and also did a bit of background research arriving at basically the same conclusions and questions as you have suggested and written here. I suspect that our reasons for searching out such a site might have been for slightly different reasons or POV. However, I would suggest that we both, as well as many others, continue to search for a site, a place, where such a format of discussion would be used to find the “middle grounds”, repair or build some connections across this schism which our nation finds itself so entrenched, while remaining true and consistent to the values, rights and precepts on which our Republic was founded on. The reality is that such a site may not be able to exist in the current national environment given the spectrum of opinions, emotions, and far Left and Right entrenched points of view involved.
    I’m concerned that without such a national forum that allows for a frank discussion, where solutions might be explored, where a consensus could be forged, to these issues that have commanded our attention and caused us to further divide our nation, we will come to a flash point that we may not be able to turn aside from.
    I cannot for the life of me conceive of how such a forum and discussion might be able to exist in one place at this juncture in time. I can not see the individual or group who could be accepted and trusted by all the diverse points of view that might structure such a working forum. Such a forum would scare the hell out of both the far Right and Left power bases who see their agendas from the view point of the fanatical mind.
    The fact may be that we may never be able solve this issue in a manner of constructive solutions. As a nation, we are no longer “a cultural melting pot”. We are now a nation weakly held together by our Constitution, Bill of Right, and the Federal Papers that help define them. A nation of walled in cultural splinters and points of view that perceive any other that does not agree with it to be bad, wrong or of no importance. A nation of cultural isolationist who are and continue to weaken the greatest strength we have as a people of a free Republic. The strength of a united People.
    The world perceives us now as fractured and ineffective as a people and a nation. There are those who already smell the blood in the water and are circling our wounded nation biting out little bits and pieces as the opportunities allow or the opportunities that have been created for them. They are made up, from my POV, of “enemies both Foreign and Domestic”, external and internal, and they are on BOTH sides of the schism that is our nation today. I took an oath long ago about this and hold to it to this day. It is to their benefit, personal goals, control, power and wealth that the majority of our nations population, “We The People”, remain and become further divided. That “We The People” be kept looking in the wrong directions, feed the propaganda of control by those who understand the truth and mechanics of “divide and conquer” for their greedy and selfish interest alone regardless of the future consequences. To these groups and individuals the motto “United We Stand, Divided We Fall” is a direct threat to their intent to divide and conquer for their own benefit at the expense of our Republic and Culture.
    The cultural scale is dangerously out of balance. Should it become fixed in this unbalanced condition we may find ourselves on an unpleasant path of none of our choosing. The very nature of the environment and world we live in demands balance. If we can not keep the scale working then nature will do it without us, dragging us along for the ride. That is a ride I’d prefer to not take if possible in this or any future lifetime if possible.
    If you find that forum, that place where we may forge a new and stronger cultural melting pot out of our opposed opinions, points of view, and beliefs. Where we as a Republic, a nation and a culture may find again our greatest strength as a united culture once again. Please let us know. I will too will continue to look for such a venue.
    I continue have faith in and hold to the precepts and values of our national foundation found in the documents that our founding fathers created. I believe that for them to remain strong and to serve the people of this Republic, they must breath, grow and remain flexible. This is NOT to say they should be changed in a manner that would weaken them but perhaps changed in a manner that strengthens them while allowing for our cultural needs. It may not be possible any longer to accomplish such a lofty goal for “we the People” but the discussion should take place.
    If it comes to it “we the people” have a responsibility to revolution should all other discussions fail. The very makeup of the foundation of our Republic allows for it should that course of action be necessary. Where such a path would lead is a black hole that will not allow any to see its outcome.
    The bottom line I think is that at the point we stop constructive dialog because its believed to be pointless to continue we commit to a path that can only be decided by conflict in which one side must conquer the other regardless of the end results of such an interaction. It is the genetic cultural imperative in all of us.
    My path is to speak for common sense and the discover of solutions that we may all live with we’re I can and to those of like mind. I will also keep my weapons clean and near at hand should such an unthinkable possibility become a reality in this, my country.
    I’m sure that my opinions will have their share of detractors and be … unsettling …. to those who the cultural isolationist fortress is already their reality. I’m going to hope that we haven’t lost our ability to find real solutions to our real issues quite yet. Well, at the very least maybe this will start another conversation.

  37. Of course it is a biased organization and they who began it will profit off of the site wether in cash or in other endeavors as spin offs of this site.
    Of course the official disclaimer by you know whom in actuality will be damned near word for word of that putforth by this new anti gun organization.
    We need much more exposure of the organizations real purpose and one thing more; WE NEED TO MAKE SURE IT DOES NOT GET THE. TAX STATUS OF NON PROFIT.
    THIS NEEDS IMMEDIATE AND FORCEFULL ACTION BY WHATEVER NON PROFIT OR EVEN A PROFIT DRIVEN ORGANIZATION YOU BELONG TO THAT VALUES GUNS AND 2ND RIGHTS TO MAIL PHONE OR EVEN DEMO AGAINST WHAT IN EFFECT IS A LOBBYIST ORG THAT WILL STIR THE POT TO INCREADE ITS REVENUES.
    SUGGEST : Read article of how ultra wealthy are actually running the anti gun programs for their own profit.
    Google wealthy liberals hide how they make their money.

  38. Anybody else smell that???????? I see nothing beneficial to this endever. At least, not to the projected subscribers. Safety, advocacy, networking, and education. Let’s see……I’ve been involved in hunting/shooting amoung other outdoor activities most of my sixty years, and those aspects have helped to shape and define who I am today, although not via a public forum. It clearly sounds to me like these guys are more into fishing.

  39. The backgrounds of the board of directors automatically sends up some red flags for me.

    Beware of false prophets. I’ll put my faith with the “real” NRA.

  40. Sure. Open debate “purified” through the anti-gun filter. I wonder what, if anything, the founders of this organization, with their anti-gun agenda, intended by the abbreviated form of the name (AR+P). Read AR (15) +P (extreme load). Just sayin’.

  41. Even if this group is legitimate, which I doubt, it is designed to fail. It will be no more then a forum for gunners and anti-gunners to argue their positions. However, I suspect the published “results” will be anti-gun(regardless of the actual results) and have the appearance of legitimacy. It is still a bad idea to let foxes guard the hen house.

    Sane gun ownership is already established with Constitutional rights gated by a civil justice system of laws and enforcement that if properly exercised will result in responsible ownership and use. The problem is that anti-gunners seek to target and sanction responsible gun owners since irresponsible gun owners (criminals and crazies)are far harder to regulate than honest citizens.

    I think it is a Trojan horse.

  42. I am a proud member of the NRA, getting my Life membership almost 20
    years ago. Now a group has been started which calls itself NR+PA, it
    may be a bit confusing to some of us who think the NRA has added Pistol to it’s name, or if they do a survey and put no stress on the
    (+P) portion of their name. It worries me that a new group would start up with their name so close to the real NRA. Hopefully I am overreacting. But I don’t think I am.

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