General

The Second Amendment Foundation Sues Over Microstamping

Second Amendment Foundation

Fortunately for all of the gunslingers and shooting enthusiasts out there, we have organizations such as the National Rifle Association, Second Amendment Foundation, National Gun Rights Association and others defending our rights. The gun control crowd has taken a divide and conquer approach. Where they cannot strip us of our rights on a national scale, they are trying to pick apart one state at a time, even down to the county level if necessary.

The Backstory

Second Amendment Foundation
National Organizations such as the Second Amendment Foundation are the great defends of our rights.

One of the latest such attacks comes from the left coast—specifically, the Golden State. California passed a controversial microstamping bill back in 2007, but was not able to implement it due to patent issues. Then, in mid to late May 2013, California Attorney General Kamala Harris announced, effective immediately, all new semi-automatic firearms sold in the State of California will require a unique microstamp on every shell ejected when a gun is fired.

Small details, for example how a firearm that has been illegally purchased such as those through straw purchasers from federal agents in Operation Fast and Furious, could help track down criminals.  Criminals do not buy local guns legally. They import guns from wherever they can get them.

Federal law prohibits the destruction or defacing of serial number on firearms, but it also currently prohibits the registry of firearms. This produces a dilemma with regard to microstamping. California’s solution was to define microstamping as other than a serial number so it would not run afoul of Federal law for registry. At the same time, that allows every owner to obliterate the microstamp or simply replace the engraved part—both of which would be legal and would render the stamp useless for later prosecution.

Let’s take that thought a step further and look at other implications. Let’s say you owned a microstamped pistol and the state had your tag registered. Would you take your semi-auto to the range? Perhaps pop a few caps; burn a little powder. What did you leave behind? I’ll tell you what—your nom de plume, John Hancock, ATM pin—in essence your personal fingerprint. All that would be required is for a criminal to get one or two cases and leave them behind at a crime scene and your life becomes a personal hell courtesy of the legislature.

Of course these, and other troubling facts, did not stop lawmakers from pushing the controversial law through or its sudden and unwarranted implementation. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense can see this will not do anything to decrease crime or increase prosecution. Yes, that includes the lawmakers themselves. I know that seems like a stretch (lawmakers having common sense) however, I can prove it in this case. When the law was written, it specifically exempted law enforcement.

Students can carry at the University of Utah. Reported sexual assault is 58 percent less than the national average.
The goal of California’s microstamping is nothing more than a gun ban it could not get passed any other way.

Why would you need to exempt law enforcement? Are they above the commission of a crime? Why can’t they buy microstamped weapons like the rest of the citizens? Wouldn’t you want to know which brass belonged to the police and which ones to particular suspects versus a casing that was potentially left over from another crime or shooting? The answer is two-fold. First, they can already do that through the tool marks left by the firing pin and breach face that are unique to each gun. They do not need microstamping.

Instead, this allows California to create an “otherwise illegal” firearm ownership registry at a minimum to subvert Federal law and more likely it is an outright de facto ban on the importation or sale of semi-autos in the state. The cost would be unnecessarily prohibitive and manufacturers would simply quit selling guns in California, thus law enforcement would not be able to get firearms either, thus the exemption.

The Response

Attorneys for the Second Amendment Foundation and Calguns Foundation have filed an amended complaint in the on-going Pena case, challenging California’s handgun roster law to clarify that the challenge extends to the state’s newly activated microstamping regulation.

The plaintiffs’ motion for summary judgment will be argued by the court’s deadline in November.

The case was originally filed in 2009 as a challenge to California’s regulation that arbitrarily bans handguns based on a roster of “acceptable” handgun models approved by the state. The new motion addresses microstamping, which has made it even harder to legally purchase a handgun in the state of California.

“When the case was originally filed,” SAF Executive Vice President Alan Gottlieb recalled, “the state’s microstamping requirement was not active and was not part of the lawsuit. However, because of substantial delays involving the Ninth Circuit’s protracted Nordyke litigation, microstamping is now a significant issue. We’ve had to amend our complaint to address this new effort by California legislators to limit the types of handguns one can legally purchase.”

Gene Hoffman, chairman of the Calguns Foundation, added, “California’s attempt to limit the availability of handguns to her citizens is so broad that it makes it impossible to purchase the revolver that the U.S. Supreme Court has specifically ruled had to be registered to Dick Heller, whose case struck down the District of Columbia’s handgun ban and affirmed that the Second Amendment protects an individual civil right.

Police Responding
Law Enforcement was given an exemption. The newly enacted microstamping legislation will prevent the sale of semi-autos in California and would effectively shut down law enforcement otherwise – just as it will the defensive capabilities of citizens.

“The state cannot dictate that some common arms can’t be bought just as they can’t dictate which versions of religious texts are acceptable,” Hoffman added. “Now that the state requires microstamping, it’s unlikely any new make or model of pistol will be added—making it even clearer that this is an incremental ban on firearms.”

“Amending our case to address the California legislature’s insidious erosion of firearms rights was a necessary step,” Gottlieb concluded. “It is clear the intent of anti-gun lawmakers is not to regulate firearms but to ban them via increasingly restrictive legislation. This scheme cannot go without challenge, and our existing case is the best and quickest way to accomplish that.”

Reach out to your local lawmakers and ensure your voice is heard loud and often, then make take a minute two to make sure someone else’s officials know that we are one voice and very united in our fight. Anytime you open your wallet and find an extra buck or two, remember who was out there fighting for our rights on a national and local level. Today it is California and Colorado; tomorrow it may be something closer to home. I’ll pay it forward today in the hopes that other gun owners will step up when my lawmakers pull something onerous like California and Colorado recently have.

Will you help out the law-abiding gun owners of California and Colorado whose rights are under assault? Let us know in the comment section.

The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt!'s blog, The Shooter's Log, is to provide information—not opinions—to our customers and the shooting community. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt!

Comments (70)

  1. Good point, Bob. In California, the only place the ID number can be found is on the frame and it is this number that is used when filling out the paperwork required for the sale. As for your example of the AR-15, none of the other parts, such as the stock, upper receiver, barrel, etc., are stamped with this number.

  2. Just a bit off topic but isn’t a firing pin part of the bolt or bolt carrier group and therefore not legally defined as being part of a firearm? So, can a firearm law be enacted on a product that isn’t a firearm. Last I checked the frame or receiver was the firearm, not the bolt.

  3. I wrote the below letter and sent it many times in the last few years. Food for thought re: micro stamping

    PS- I left out the possibility of reloading a microstamped fired cartridge case and shooting it from a pre microstamped gun.
    ————————————————

    I am writing to add additional arguments in opposition to micro-stamping that I believe are significant and have been overlooked.

    I am a retired Police Officer now employed as a Forensic Firearm Examiner. During my law enforcement career I have investigated a number of shooting related crimes. Most if not all of these crimes are committed by career criminals and gangs engaging in unlawful activity. I have never had the opportunity to arrest a licensed gun owner for misuse of a firearm. As a Forensic Firearm Examiner I have examined many firearms and have given opinion testimony in Court regarding firearm examination. Having investigated many aspects of crimes involving firearms I would like to add the following:

    Micro stamping is being presented as a supplement or augmentation to tool mark identification. It’s clear based on the past scientific research conducted by forensic tool mark examiners, there are various ways different ammunition interacts with different firearms. Because of these variables, micro stamping technology is not capable of producing a readable make, model, and serial number on every fired cartridge case.

    Much more importantly, the focus of an investigation in an assault with a firearm is the shooter not the gun. Law enforcement does not need to recover the responsible firearm to arrest someone for illegal use of a firearm. In cases where the police find the responsible firearm, they still have to put that gun in the shooters hand at the time of the offense. Micro-stamping will not do that. All micro stamping will do (assuming the technology works) is generate manufacturer information for the firearm.

    All legitimate, responsible gun owner’s purchase firearms from legitimate gun stores. This means that there is a considerable amount of documentation and information regarding the owner and the manufacture information of the firearm. Some elected officials are trying to get people to believe that the documentation and information recorded from these legitimate gun sales will help the police arrest criminals using guns during crimes. This could not be farther from the truth.

    Unfortunately, career criminals and gangs do not purchase firearms by legitimate means. They have to obtain firearms and ammunition from illegitimate means (stolen or undocumented). This means there is NO documentation or information about the illegal possession or use of a firearm. Micro stamping will not change that.

    Therefore the information that law enforcement investigators will glean from micro stamping will not really give us any additional information to solve crimes involving firearms. It can not tell us anything about the illegitimate use of a firearm by someone who obtained the firearm on the street. Most importantly, micro stamping will not make our streets any safer.

    Micro stamping is no different than the “New Gun data base” that exists or previously existed in NY State and Maryland. Millions of dollars was spent on a computer system, its operation, and its maintenance, that can compare fired cartridge cases recovered from a crime scene to a fired cartridge case from a new firearm legally sold to a licensed firearm owner.  It is my understanding that this “new gun database” that has been in use for more than 10 years has not solved one crime!

    Just to be clear there is an excellent ballistic database in use by crime labs all over this country using traditional proven forensic tool mark methodologies that successfully link crime scene to crime scene and guns to crime scenes. The reason why this database is so successful is because the focus of the link is the time date and location of the incident rather than the manufacture information of the firearm.

    Elected officials who truly believe that micro stamping can make our communities safer need to be educated on how law enforcement investigate crimes involving firearms and what value the firearm manufacturer information has in that process. It is appalling to me to think that an elected official would attempt to misrepresent the facts about micro stamping and its potential to his/her constituents in an effort to get it passed.

    This bill mandating micro stamping will create more work for state and municipal employees to maintain record keeping and to create additional databases of legitimate firearm owners while the criminals remain stealth. Do we really need more inefficient use of our tax paid resources?

    As an alternative, elected officials should calculate how much more it would cost government municipalities to implement micro stamping and use that money for equipment and training for law enforcement investigators and forensic analysts.

    It is my opinion based on my previously stated qualifications, the above information, and as a law biding responsible gun owner, that micro stamping on firearms will not be a useful tool in solving crime involving firearms and most importantly, will not make our communities safer.

    Gerard Petillo
    Advanced Forensics & Investigations inc.
    gp@advanced-forensics.com

  4. Where’s the outrage over Assault Cars? You know, those nasty automobiles that run down innocent deer crossing the road!

  5. Liberals are opening the door… so I have another right we can tax and regulate in the EXACT same way we handle the right to bear arms. The irresponsible and/or violent outbursts of a few can now be seen to justify the following:

    Effective immediately, EVERY Muslim must obtain a PERMIT TO PRACTICE ISLAM. These permits will need to be renewed every few years and will cost the permit holder $100. Revenues from this permit process will be used to combat extremism.

    State and federal governments shall build and maintain databases that catalog all Muslims. Any Muslim found to be practicing Islam without a permit shall be subject to arrest, fines and imprisonment.

    Thorough background checks shall be conducted on all permit requests. No individual with a criminal record, a history of violence or any form of mental illness should be allowed access to Islam.

    Every mosque will need to submit an extensive volume of paperwork in order to obtain federal permits allowing them to preach Islam. These ‘dealers’ of Islam shall be held to very strict standards and extreme penalties if they do not stay within federal guidelines.

    It will not be easy for Muslims to stay within the law. We will write approximately 20,000 confusing laws governing and regulating the “free” exercise of Islam. Any Muslim that violates any of these laws will have their permit to practice Islam revoked permanently, and may face fines and/or imprisonment for violations.

    Mosques will submit detailed records to the federal government showing every attendee of their mosque on ant given date. Any discrepancies in record keeping will result in permit suspension, and the mosque may be shut down until they sort it out with the Bureau of Religion, Media and Thought Control. Multiple discrepancies may result in permanent revocation and possible imprisonment.

    Transport of Korans and other religious paraphernalia shall be strictly regulated. All Korans shall henceforth be sold with locking mechanisms to ensure that they do not fall into the wrong hands. They shall be transported in locked cases between the home and religious institutions. While in the home, they shall be locked at all times unless they are in use.

    Anyone wishing to carry an unlocked Koran in public shall obtain a special permit, and must keep it hidden at all times or face arrest.

    The federal government shall likewise regulate the ‘design’ of the Koran. Certain passages will be deemed ‘especially dangerous’, and shall be considered illegal to sell or transfer. Older Korans containing these passages may be ‘grandfathered’ and can be registered. A special permit will be required for those who wish to own or carry grandfathered passages.

    Mildly dangerous passages in the Koran can likewise be considered as incitements to violence, and limits should be imposed. We will therefore set an arbitrary limit of 10 dangerous passages per Koran. Any Koran that holds more than 10 may be considered illegal. Various states may set their own arbitrary limits as to which passages are allowed and how many are permissible (15, 10, 7, 6 or whatever is deemed suitable).

    ALL of this is now WELL ESTABLISHED as perfectly legal under liberal Democrat ideology. NONE of this is considered a violation of civil liberties. As Democrats have repeatedly pointed out, these are “COMMON SENSE MEASURES” to avert the actions of a violent few.

  6. I think a global economic crash is on the horizon that will make the Great Depression look like a slight fiscal correction.

    Our debt is something like 105% of the GDP and the government is still borrowing money.

    Once that happens, a large part of the socialist agenda goes away just because there isn’t anyone to get the money to fund the entitlement programs anymore.

  7. PS – There are a LOT of liberal democrats in Washington that are horrified at the percentage of troops who are wearing morale patches on their uniforms that say, “THREE PERCENT”, or “OATH KEEPER”.

    The “Oath Keeper” patch means that they will honor their oath to defend the constitution against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC. The three percent patch means that they are one of the few that will shed blood to defend against tyranny.

  8. NEIL – I have to disagree with a few points you’ve made.

    Things today are much as they were 240 years ago. One third of the people are completely behind the big, oppressive government that we have. One third are strongly against the status quo. The final third are largely complacent “sheeple” who take no side in the issue.

    In our first civil war, we faced the largest and most feared military in the world. As mentioned, it was only a third of the people who were against them. However, only ten percent lifted a finger in the war of independence (gave money, aided troops, etc). And it was only THREE PERCENT of the population that actually took up arms against the British and were willing to spill blood and have their blood spilled.

    All of this is STILL TRUE. However, 3 percent of todays population constitutes an army of more than TEN MILLION.

    Now lets look at who a civilian uprising would face. The British military was 100% behind the crown. The same CANNOT be said of the American military. In fact MOST of our military is not too thrilled with the state of affairs in Washington DC. Most of them would NOT follow orders to fire on a civilian uprising. In point of fact, they would be just as likely to march back towards DC as to stand and defend it.

    As to your imagining a tax revolt, it’s been made nearly impossible. Most people have their taxes removed before they ever see them (withholding from paychecks). For most, there is no option to receive full payment and pay taxes later.

    In fact, the BEST thing that could ever happen in America would be to STOP all withholding. If every American had to sit down and write checks to pay quarterly taxes… no liberal Democrat would ever hold office again.

  9. There won’t be a civil war. There are too many people who live fat, dumb, apathetic and happy on the freebies that the rest of us are forced to provide. A civil war would be beaten down pronto. There might be isolated insurrections a la “Red Dawn,” but I don’t believe that a civil war is in the future. Besides, citizens would require backing by the national biased liberal news media, and from what I have seen, that ain’t gonna happen.

    The only thing I can think of would be a national tax revolt, whereby every taxpayer just refused to send the government anything. The Democrats would hate it; they love taxes…especially when someone else pays them.

  10. In regards to number 8 written by Jay, I as many others swore an oath to protect and defend the United States of America which includes the constitution. I know that anyone holding public office took the same oath. We the people need to stand up and to the politicians that are trying to destroy this country. Use common sense and read between the lines as to what is happening in our country. If the citizens do not respond, to the atrocity we will see another civil war in our country. I might add, this should be posted in every newspaper and magazine and every television station in this country and word of mouth. Wake up people. Your freedoms are being taken away from the inside. Thank you for this opportunity to speak.

  11. I would just like to say as a citizen of San Bernardino California thank you for helping us out in our gun rights struggles. Everyday it’s the same old rhetoric for soy-eating self absorbed jerks that thinks guns are evil, Obama is king, the govt.(or any govt. for that mater) never lies to it’s people, and if you don’t think like them it’s because your a dinosaur that has not yet evolved to there enlightened intellect. Well I call B.S. on them, Cali. has always had some of the strictest gun laws and yet they have done jack to help from what I can see. We have the toughest emissions laws yet I can’t see the redlands hills due to the crap smog from L.A., three strikes law was a joke, our crime is so famous it’s the stuff movies are made of, and if your from here you know that a run in with the local smash unit will end with your rights being violated and your life being threatened whether you’re a gang banger or not regardless of your appearance; and that’s just a Tuesday. To everyone else in the U.S. don’t let your state become like Cali. Once it does it’s hell to change it back. On a side note, I propose that instead of calling my state California, we should just refer to it as the new Nazi state; yea it just sorta rolls off the tongue, come to the Nazi state where you too can be poor and oppressed by facists pretending to be environmentalists. 🙂 big smile

  12. Let the worthless politicians make all the laws they want–millions, who cares? Guns will never go away; in fact, the manufacture of them will probably increase–black market, laws be damned. The mother of invention will prevail.

    The down-side will be more gun violence to protect our right to own and carry. Let’s all say “Prohibition” together. The murder rate doubled during the prohibition years and dropped back to half almost overnight when it was rescinded. The fools who want to control us will never learn, they are everywhere.

    Gun banning will just start a new industry for the mob, gangs, and others. Machining guns and ammo is not rocket science; but it could result in more dangerous weapons.

  13. Bruce, you may be right, but you forgot to mention that the national liberal news media has a habit of being quite biased against conservatives and their agenda. This includes their speaking out against the gun-grabbers. If you have failed to see “conservative politicians speaking out against all this crap,” it isn’t because they haven’t; it’s because you won’t find their views and their expressions of outrage in the mainstream media.

  14. I see the common theme here is liberals hate guns and conservatives love guns. I have voted liberal in the past because at one time it seemed they were for the little guy. Now there appears there is no difference between the two. I own many fire arms and do not agree with any of the anti 2nd amendment laws trying to be rammed through. At this time i don’t see a lot of conservative politicians speaking out against all this crap. what i see is one party putting it out there and the other going along with it or keeping silent. They both have the same agenda, total control.

  15. On paper you are correct, but in reality… — GW — June 23, 2013 @ 12:21 pm

    As part of both Heller and McDonald SCOTUS has declared that any gun laws have to pass the strict scrutiny standard. So even if the circuit court wants to say that it isn’t a violation to restrict firearms by category or design, they can’t. If they do that means it’s an automatic appeal.

  16. GW: “I took time off from work and attended every rally possible leading up to the passage of the laws. The pro 2nd amendment crowd was avoided by our reps at every turn while the media gave unequal coverage of the anti 2nd amendment crowd getting embraced by our reps.”

    GW, Rep’s decisions are influenced by their own political ambitions and their quest to stay in office. Government “service” is long-gone, substituted by the idea that politics should be a career. It is far easier for government workers to stay employed in a job that doesn’t require the competition. Sadly, too many of these people have had no experience in business (Obama is a prime example), don’t have a clue as to what we in the private sector must put up with, and they don’t seem to care, as long as they keep getting elected by making promises they can’t really keep unless others (us) pay for those promises. Social Security and Medicare are two prime examples. They are going broke, yet politicians just can’t modify them for fear of losing the elderly vote and the support of the AARP.

    Liberal politicians think that big government is the only entity that can provide answers…usually to problems they have created themselves, and those same politicians have been teaching this nonsense for years….calling themselves “leaders” for doing so.

    This rules out their wanting to be leaders who would explain the folly of gun control… that won’t work. We know it and they know it, but for them to admit it would further cloud the minds of their voters….thanks to the liberal press and blinder-intellect from politicians such as Bloomberg, Schumer, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, Feinstein, and our Great Leader. I blame the complacent, biased media for encouraging the growth of low-info voters. We are further threatened by more millions from south of the border who threaten to engulf us.

    Anyway, I’m off my soap box.

  17. Chances of this going through the court system in that time are nil! Our hope of actually winning is remote as well considering how liberal the judges tend to be in the North East. All the more reason to have support pouring in! — GW June 23, 2013 @ 9:33 am

    The case was filed in federal, not state court, so that means Malloy and crowd have no say. The circuit court can, and probably will, put out an injunction before the laws go into effect if they see any merit to the case. And once the case is granted merit, then that is when the various organizations file Friends of the Court briefs.

  18. To common sense, you obviously don’t have any. uneducated….. in constitutional rights.
    if we the people don’t need to defend ourselves, then neither does the president need guns, nor the pope, nor the rich , nor the movie stars. 99.999% of all gun owners are responsible and law abiding; a small fraction to the contrary makes your argument weak and void. So next time try to be civil instead of calling everyone names and cursing because of you limited vocabulary

  19. I pray and hope you win against these low level minds of low intellect. To those who don’t want the US constitution and to abide by it, understand it and want to manipulate it …….go and live somewhere else in the world and leave the America and Americans alone.

  20. @Jim P. (and everyone else) – I am aware of the lawsuits, but where are the names from outside of CT? (Like I said, where’s our support?) NRA (I’m a lifetime member!) and many others are nowhere to be seen… When it comes to constitutional challenges if one state in the union falls the rest will follow! CT has the most restrictive laws at this moment, everyone should be focusing here and NY next!

    I sent $1,000 to the CCDL to help fight this, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions Bloomberg pumped into CT advertising and lobbying! The laws have already passed and we only have a couple of months before we have to register. Chances of this going through the court system in that time are nil! Our hope of actually winning is remote as well considering how liberal the judges tend to be in the North East. All the more reason to have support pouring in!

    I took time off from work and attended every rally possible leading up to the passage of the laws. The pro 2nd amendment crowd was avoided by our reps at every turn while the media gave unequal coverage of the anti 2nd amendment crowd getting embraced by our reps.

    Our representatives have turned themselves into our leaders, when in fact their role was intended to be followers – To represent the will of the people from the districts that elected them and from nowhere else. Voting them out is an option, but that is to far away to repeal this in time…

    Consider this an SOS! Save CT in order to save your own state!

  21. I AM A MILITARY / COP BRAT, MY FAMILY ARE POLICE CHIEFS, AND SEALS, WE HAVE GUNS EVERYWHERE. I DARE SOMEONE TO COME AND GET THEM. LIKE MY DAD SAYS, “GOD HELP THEM, BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL BE ABLE TO.”

  22. What about Connecticut? Where’s our support? I have to register almost everything I own with the state in the next couple of months otherwise the state will take away my right to own any guns!

  23. First off, “common sense” your the crazy F@#K. Your just like the rest of the retarded liberals running this commie state of California that I unfortunately live in. I live in the Sierra Nevada mountains, and I love it here. Too bad I will have to move by Jan, 01, 2014 before all the NEW gun laws come into play. It`s people like YOU selling out our Constitution on every level possible and then you have the balls to come on this blog with your libereltard self-righteous indignation. I`m going to be as polite as possible here….Go piss up a fu$#king rope you friggin anti-American cheese eatin` Koolaid drinking liberal suck ass!!!

  24. @M40…”But all indications are that Obama is a STAUNCH supporter of the third amendment. He’s never once tried to quarter troops in my home.”……………At least not yet.

  25. Good points, Jim. I have had to put up with liberals who make a dozen points in an argument, then have to pick apart each argument. It would be refreshing if they would make one argument or argue one point so that I could respond without having to spend hours trying to unravel entire paragraphs

    My brother-in-law (a flaming liberal) is practiced in the art of diverting a point that has been made about Obama, for instance, by bringing George Bush into the conversation. He knows nothing about history, economics or the Constitution. Gun issues? Forget it! Trying to educate the guy about anything is futile; he knows everything about everything, and trying to argue a point with him is like talking to my cat. He knows one thing: Liberals are all good; conservatives are all evil, greedy, selfish, gun-loving, religious freaks who hate to pay taxes, love corporations, hate the poor, hate illegal aliens, love George Bush and Dick Cheney, and wait for weekends when they can ride around with American flags on their Harleys. Good God!!!!

  26. I feel your pain. However, what will happen to re-loaders? Will micro-stamping erase information from the brass before applying the new one, or will it just over-write?

  27. You’re all a bunch of morons. Just wait until one of your own gets killed by someone who should have been banned from owning firearms in the first place then you’re tune might change. Nobody complains when any other industry is forced to make itself or its products safer, ie:car manufacturers . I guess us liberals are so terrible for thinking that deadly weapons should be be the most difficult things to purchase and that there should be every step taken to keep them away from crazies. If you’re not going to go do something scandalous with your gun then why do you care, unless you’re a crazy F%$k who’s going to go kill people and don’t want to be tracked. I love my guns, especially when I know that it’s extremely difficult for others to get them. — Common sense — June 22, 2013 @ 1:49 pm

    Let’s take your babble point by point:

    You’re all a bunch of morons. Just wait until one of your own gets killed by someone who should have been banned from owning firearms in the first place then you’re tune might change.

    Oh trust me, the gun community commonly comes together after any mass shooting incident to blame the “someone who should have been banned from owning firearms in the first place”. After Sandy Hook we blamed the teenager for killing his mother and stealing the guns. We also blamed the nutjob in Aurora who walked into the theater and started shooting. We felt sorry for the eight CCW holders that observed the law and weren’t carrying.

    Nobody complains when any other industry is forced to make itself or its products safer, ie:car manufacturers.

    I know many people that ignored seat belts for years and only wear them now because it is a stoppable offense in many states. BTW, look at the FEDEX/UPS/USPS drivers as they make their rounds. And then notice the seat belts.

    If you’re not going to go do something scandalous with your gun then why do you care, unless you’re a crazy F%^k who’s going to go kill people and don’t want to be tracked.

    This is the same argument that is being used to justify the violation of our Fourth and Fifth amendment rights. I have stuff to hide, and so do you. It could be as innocuous as you ate five cookies for dessert to that you couldn’t get it up for your boy or girl friend two nights ago. I frankly don’t care when you can’t get it up but do you want the government to know?

    I love my guns, especially when I know that it’s extremely difficult for others to get them.

    So now I know which house to break into. I can steal your guns and use them and you’ll be blamed. I have a locked and loaded firearm in my house at all times. So hopefully I can blow away the intruder.

  28. Neil Schmidt, I believe Common sense is a troll. He is just jumping into the conversation to get all the gun owners angry. You are correct, he really did not make a point. All that garbage he spewed contributed nothing to the conversation. We, the law abiding gun owners with the brains and balls to see the liberal plots and fight against them, have the facts behind us. Unfortunately, the Main Stream Media supports the Socialistic policies of the Left. The truth about gun control’s failure to impact crime and it’s adverse effect on good people protecting themselves, just does not get published. We must continue our efforts to uncover the lies and vote for political candidates that support the Constitution. Those leaders that sell us out, need to be recalled. START WITH THE KENYAN, MOSLEM COMMUNIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE!

  29. “You’re all a bunch of morons. Just wait until one of your own gets killed by someone who should have been banned from owning firearms in the first place then you’re tune might change. Nobody complains when any other industry is forced to make itself or its products safer, ie:car manufacturers . I guess us liberals are so terrible for thinking that deadly weapons should be be the most difficult things to purchase and that there should be every step taken to keep them away from crazies. If you’re not going to go do something scandalous with your gun then why do you care, unless you’re a crazy F#$k who’s going to go kill people and don’t want to be tracked. I love my guns, especially when I know that it’s extremely difficult for others to get them.”

    @Common Sense: Maybe I missed your point, but firearms ARE almost impossible to be purchased by felons and persons with criminal histories. You are trying to kill a dead horse when you say that “deadly weapons should be the most difficult things to purchase.” Naturally they should be difficult to purchase…BY CRIMINALS, CRAZIES or anyone else who wants to commit murder, who, by the way, comprise far less than 1% of the entire gun-owning, law-abiding population. Conversely, are you proposing that the remainder of us be penalized by being completely prevented from defending ourselves by creating even more onerous laws that would make it impossible for us to arm ourselves, merely because you apparently feel that gun laws are not restrictive enough?

    By mentioning that you are a liberal, you imply that non-liberals are “morons” who don’t agree with you and that only liberals are interested in keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people. I know that you tried to be facetious here (didn’t you?), but adding your political affiliation only clouded your opinion, IMO.

    You go on to say,”If you’re not going to go do something scandalous with your gun then why do you care, unless you’re a crazy F#$k who’s going to go kill people and don’t want to be tracked. I love my guns, especially when I know that it’s extremely difficult for others to get them.”

    I’m still trying to decipher exactly what you meant here. Maybe you could clarify?

  30. Well , they don’t seem to realize that all of their gun laws are ( to the criminal ) now moot . With 3-D printers and CNC machines anyone for the cost of a few guns can make as many of any kind they want to. You can get a mini CNC lathe and CNC mill that fit on your desktop for $5000.00 . I run mine on a $25.00 hacked X Box with a $20.00 15″ lcd screen . You can make ar 15 frames , $60,000 for machines , tools ect. and make one every 15 min. , and run 24-7 . I lived in Chicago between 1960-1980 and heard ( from my friends father who was a cop ) that when some one did a ” job ” afterwards they would put a piece of metal ( coin , nail file , ect ) between the firing pin and breach and dry fire it and clean the barrel with steel wool . This negates a positive ID .By hand( no CNC ) you can make a semi-auto Sten in 2 hours with used car parts and a barrel liner.
    BTW , the seat belt and auto safety rules have only improved safety 20% in the last 40 years . This is due to air bags and better crumple zones . If you are physically out of the design zone ( 5′ 8″ 140 lbs – 6’4″ 180 lbs. ) , your rate decreases . At 250 lbs the lap belt starts to cut into you and pops your bladder . So on average the help/hurt ratio is 50-50 .

  31. Thank you very much for all the work to get this information out to folks. California is going to crap. I totally agree with everything that has been posted in this article. If there is a web site or Email, contact etc. that I can send my complaints to, that would be wonderful. People need to stand up and start to confront the idiots running this state!

  32. RE: Comment #26 by “Common sense” — June 22, 2013 @ 1:49 pm – Coming in here and calling everyone “a bunch of morons” is pretty dumb. And naming yourself “Common Sense” is an obvious misnomer. You sir, are either ignorant of the facts, or more likely just a troll.

    Under your messiah Obama, gun prosecutions have dropped to an all time low. In fact, only one out of every thousand attempts by criminals to purchase guns illegally (at gun shops, shows, etc) are actually prosecuted. Why do you think this is? If those folks were actually prosecuted, how much crime and violence do you think we could avert? Fact is… Obama WANTS the violence. He WANTS it as an excuse to go after law abiding gun owners. He could care less about all the criminals that go free, it’s all about his (transparent) agenda.

  33. I think the elephant in the room is that these efforts are aimed at being able to catch a criminal after the fact, knowing full well that catching a rogue shooter like the ones in the news lately has never been a problem. They take their own life or have law enforcement do that for them. They can use any weapon they like, stamped or not, because it just doesn’t matter.
    For all those other “gun crimes” out there, has there been a problem securing a prosecution due to the inability to match a perp with a weapon? I’d like to see that statistic before I saw a “fix” like this considered. As has been pointed out by everyone; Spent shell casings with “unique” markings will probably do more to free a perp than to prosecute them, for the same reason you or I could be “framed” with spent shell casings taken from the range. DUHHHH

  34. Not one mention of Alan Gottlieb and his incredible work with the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizen’s Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I, for one contribute all I can to both of these organizations. How about you? Thanx Alan, for taking on the leftist California Legislators and especially Kamala Harris (Atty Gen) a Diane Feinstein camp follower and gun rights hater. We are blessed by those like you who give so much to protect our Constitutional rights.

  35. You’re all a bunch of morons. Just wait until one of your own gets killed by someone who should have been banned from owning firearms in the first place then you’re tune might change. Nobody complains when any other industry is forced to make itself or its products safer, ie:car manufacturers . I guess us liberals are so terrible for thinking that deadly weapons should be be the most difficult things to purchase and that there should be every step taken to keep them away from crazies. If you’re not going to go do something scandalous with your gun then why do you care, unless you’re a crazy F@#k who’s going to go kill people and don’t want to be tracked. I love my guns, especially when I know that it’s extremely difficult for others to get them.

  36. Hey, ease up folks… Obama’s not ENTIRELY against rights!

    Okay, so he’s ignoring and/or attacking the first amendment. And yes… we’ve all seen him going after the second amendment with a vengeance.

    And sure, he’s actively attempting to shred the fourth and fifth amendments, while taking a giant federal dump on the ninth and tenth amendments.

    And maybe his justice department is a little ham-fisted when it comes to the sixth, seventh and eighth amendments.

    But all indications are that Obama is a STAUNCH supporter of the third amendment. He’s never once tried to quarter troops in my home.

  37. Unfortunately it has come to this. We will see how many of you are true patriots when they come for your guns. You will have to pry my rifle out of my cold dead hands. Microstamping sounds like someone cooked that up for the lawbooks because they had a wealth of money invested in a company who would licence the tech to make it happen. This needs to stop, and it needs to stop now.

  38. The current fusillade of anti-gun legislation now moving through California’s state legislature is meant to be so encumbering on law abiding citizens that, as a result, only criminals will be armed and loaded. Time to get active. Call and write your state legislator. And most importantly – Vote! Just as the ultra-conservatives are working state by state to restrict access to safe and legal abortions, the ultra-liberals are working state by state to reduce our 2nd amendment rights. What ever happened to sensible middle ground?

  39. I appo;ogise for the “misspelt” words ot “typos” from my earlier statement!One dat I will learn how to spell!

  40. David Massey’s post:

    “Criminals do not buy local guns legally.”

    Come on. Yeah, criminals do, in fact, buy local guns legally. It happens, and it goes against all common sense to say that they simply “do not.” Editorial failures as blatant as this do nothing but diminish any points your author(s) try to make.”

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    David, you seem to imply that “legal” purchasing of guns by criminals is widespread. I can’t disagree more, unless we blindly assume that the 10-day waiting rule is completely without merit and validity because it “doesn’t work.” I know of no felon who can simply walk into a store, fill out the paperwork and simply walk out with the weapon of his choice ten days later. It doesn’t work that way.

    A criminal may set up a “straw buyer” to purchase a weapon, but this in itself is illegal. It is also illegal for ANY felon to EVER own or use a firearm. We both know this law goes by the wayside when anyone—felon or no felon—decides to blow someone away, but it is foolish to assume that felons can easily go into a gun store and purchase a firearm, unless you have evidence that can prove otherwise. Besides, it goes against all logic to assume that criminals (including gang bangers and nut cases) would even put their names,addresses and other other information that would implicate them in any future crime—on an application to purchase when it would be far more prudent on their part to merely buy a firearm on the street; as such, I totally agree with the author’s contention that criminals do not purchase firearms legally. It only stands to reason that there might be a few who do, but in relation to the millions of guns sold each year, the percentage would be quite small.

  41. I am a FFL Dealer, and thank God, NOT in California! It’s almost a joke, but 90% of firearms sold have a warning sticker on it..” NOT for sale in California” now tell me that is not something very wrong! You could make a TV story about how The State has prep it’s self to become the First State to be run as a Dictatorship, and the only ones that have anyway to argue are those that MIGHT still have a weapon that was not taken away from them, of course a person could not really put a name to that state, but think about it, Why are they so hell bent on illigalizing firearms for the Public? What other reason could there be? Legally owned firearms aztred not the ones being used in shooyouts with law enforcement. A good amoiunt that are used by Drug Cartells, have been obtain through a unlawful mannor.

  42. I am 72 years old,I am a free armed man and have been my entire adult life, I became an American because of the Constitution and The Bill Of Rights, “all of it.” our “rulers.” are breaking the law, not us, I will die before I turn in my arms or give up “My rights.” Yes I would, it may surprise these left wing social engineering liberal ( oh really )that people are really ready to do that, this is the line at The Alamo, all that crossed knew they would die. Some things are worth dying for,just ask your forebearers.
    Rory Gibbons/American

  43. When the 2nd amendment falls, the 1st will be next, then all others will follow. After that you wont much care about your right to bear arms. Remember the German Nazi’s first made it illegal for the Jews to own a gun saying it was for the JEWS protection! Look how well that worked out for the Jews.

  44. Hmm, I wondered what that fired casing was that came with a new handgun. Sounds like the fat is already on the fire. Dealers pretend not to know,and several told me it was a federal safety issue to show the gun had been tested and worked properly. I cannot believe that gun dealers are that ignorant of this law and the real purpose of the expended casing. Probably won’t tell you the truth cause you would reconsider buying a gun that was being tracked from the factory by the federal government. Sounds like now it can be tracked to you the moment you buy it (with microstamping.) Well, we are already on the slippery slope. I would agree that such a law should include LE. I heard somewhere that 67% of policemen who die by handguns are killed with their own gun (actually I think it was in an ATF classroom lecture years ago when I was a fed.) I appreciate how this law would aid in solving crime, but so would putting monitoring devices on every citizen. You have to draw the line somewhere.

  45. Micro stamping does not work. It has been shown in the AFTE Journal (a forensic firearms identification peer reviewed journal) that through normal use of the firearm that the micro stamped serial numbers on the firing pin typically wear off after ~200 shots. Also, the firing pin does not always strike the primer of a casing perfectly every time, so the micro stamped number can be distorted.

    Here is what will happen: firearms manufacorers will not sell guns in California, and Californians will buy their guns out of state.

  46. So? If the empty casing has no microstamp ….. it must be from a law enforcement gun …. since they are the only ones exempt from the microstamping law.

    Just exactly what part of “shall not” do they not comprehend?
    The State may not license or tax something which you have an inherent right to have or do.
    Any “law” that conflicts with the Constitution is NOT LAW AND NEED NOT BE OBEYED – IT IS VOID AT IT’S INCEPTION.

    It is time WE THE PEOPLE put OUR creature back on the leash it was intended to have.

  47. It is clear the comments are all about the same, but I think the answer is simply, throw the bums out! We get involved, promote candidates we want, toss some money into the hopper and work a bit, I know we all have jobs, activities, and families to support and these are understood, a lot of time is consumed yet the answer is get rid of these people. Nothing works as well as when good people are acting together for a single cause, get involved, get into local politics, local groups of like minded types, walk the neighborhood passing out info for your person, write letters to anybody who will listen, promote your viewpoint, put up signs for your candidate, promote and push, foeget sitting in the chair and watching TV while Rome burns, the left have a lot of bucks to throw around, consider Bloomburg, Mayor of New York, and what does he do? Money, but his money will not take the place of shoe leather by us, all of us. We get involved, fix this. You know just a couple of election cycles would clean house, and senate, and ??? All of the above.

    Thanks for your read here.

  48. Come on. Yeah, criminals do, in fact, buy local guns legally. It happens, and it goes against all common sense to say that they simply “do not.” Editorial failures as blatant as this do nothing but diminish any points your author(s) try to make.

    That is less than ten percent of the market. And that is a first time non-felon.

    But regardless, if anyone is smart they will drive to Arizona and go to a gun shop and say I need a replacement firing pin for my pistol and buy one that hasn’t been stamped. Every single state would have to have the same laws. And then you can make an AR-15/M-16 firing pin from a nail.

  49. California reminds me of a prison. Citizens are the guards, just doing their job. Politicians are the inmates. Like prison, inmates have 24 hours a day to think of ways to get you.. after all they have nothing better to do.

  50. Bloomberg tried pushing this thru in NY, also. It’s a waste of taxpayer money. The current, keep a spent bullet program, from every new gun, so we can match them, has not helped solve 1 crime since its implementation, and has cost millions to maintain. Revolvers don’t eject spent cartridges, and in cases the criminals will police their brass, or just use revolvers. What happens when LEO’s gun is taken and misused? Sorry guys it does happen though. This IS nothing more than an attempt to KEEP a registry, again punishing the law abiding people.

  51. When are “We The People” going to stand up together and demand that these elected officials be put on trial as the terrorist that they are? They are using the oldest and most formidable tactic, divide and conquer! If we don’t make an example out of these officials who are by oath are sworn to “protect, defend and uphold” the constitution by putting them on trial for all the world to see that they are the enemy within, we are no better than they are! They are at the very least in Breech of Contract with the American people by taking the oath they take. If you let these UN-American officials change one small portion of our constitution you can kiss the rest goodbye, as all that does is give them the needed push to take the rest, one piece at a time. The Constitution was penned to restrict the power of government over the people who grant it existence, not to give the government the right to restrict our freedoms! Support the people who defend the one thing that makes the USA who we are, “The Constitution” otherwise one day you might find out you no longer have one!

  52. We had the splitting of the North and South, Next we will have the divide of the West and the East from the Middle states ‘the rest’. With the complacency of Americans at an all time high it’s going to be a rough ride and that’s the only constant we will be left with. Comrades not any more.

  53. “Criminals do not buy local guns legally.”

    Come on. Yeah, criminals do, in fact, buy local guns legally. It happens, and it goes against all common sense to say that they simply “do not.” Editorial failures as blatant as this do nothing but diminish any points your author(s) try to make.

  54. You can’t make this stuff up! The left will go to ANY LENGHTS, to force their views onto the rest of the country. There are no rules when THEY run the game. I just love the fact that the least informed person, in any area, is the one picked to take the lead in that area. Remember that the term magazine/clip was thrown around by Blumenthal, Biden, Holder, Piers Morgan and Dianne Feinstein(whom had submitted her bill 10 years ago)and it took the passed 1-2 years to learn the difference. We’re screwed! There are more guns than cars, I guess that the DMV, will be the G-DMV, and take forever just to get your address straight. Just hope and pray that the IRS isn’t involved. Especially since we have B-ATF that………..

  55. I can’t edit my prior comment, but another thing that makes microstamping worthless is the simple act of picking up your brass. If the criminal is menially intelligent enough to simply think “oh I should just pick up all my expended ammo casings, that way they can’t track my microstamp to me because “of course I used my actual registered-to-me firearm in this heinous crime I’m about to commit”

    Double whammy. Criminals don’t use guns registered to them. Criminals can pick up their shell casings, effectively ignoring microstamp technology. Criminals can grind off or mutilate the microstamp, rendering it useless.

    What does that signify? Common sense was nowhere to be found when this bill was passed.

    What else? Welcome to your new registration system. Confiscation: soon

  56. This is a registration scheme, and nothing but. Microstamping is a worthless technology. Any criminal can file or grind down the stamp of the firing pin, and anonymize their firearm. This technology has nothing to do with fighting crime, and everything to do with putting a list of names together with a list a serial numbers. That is ALL it seeks to accomplish. A roundabout registration system.

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