Posts Tagged ‘Revolvers’

Pink Guns

“Girly” pink firearms have become mainstream. Most major companies make them, and the reactions range from “cute!” to “ghastly!” —and

I Like These Items Today…

SureFire G2X Pro 200 Flashlight

SureFire G2X Pro 200 Flashlight

SureFire G2X Pro 200 Flashlight

Believe me, I have been just as impatient as you have been waiting for a SureFire light to come back in stock. I was pretty dang pleased to run into this light this morning. The G2X Pro is a polymer LED flashlight that has two settings, 200 lumens or 15 lumens. It is compact and lightweight, perfect to mount on your weapon. It includes 123A batteries.

Like it? Want it? Buy it! Item: LIGHT-220








NAA 22 LR Single Action Mini-Revolver

NAA 22 LR Single Action Mini-Revolver

NAA 22 LR Single Action Mini-Revolver

Last night my hairdresser reminded me that I own one of these little guys. I had told her about my most recent gun purchase and she said, “I still wanna shoot that teeny gun you got for your birthday one year.” My NAA sits in a drawer by the front door, a drawer I never open, so I tend to forget about it when it’s range time. This little dude is so fun to shoot, not great for defense, as reload is slow, but stick some Super Colibris in it and it is sure to put a smile on your face.

The main thing that the NAA has going for it is its concealability. It will hide anywhere! And I mean anywhere! The other main thing is the price.

North American Arms has some fun, novelty-type accessories for it. I have the quick-release belt buckle holster for mine.

Like it? Want it? Buy it! Item: 2-NAA22LRGSTG





.405 Winchester Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Ammunition

.405 Winchester Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Ammunition

.405 Winchester Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Ammunition

Ninety-nine years ago today, Theodore Roosevelt was shot with a .32 caliber bullet, but because he had a manuscript and his glasses case in his pocket, he was spared from assassination. Read my forum post about it!

Roosevelt’s favorite firearms manufacturer was Winchester and .405 was one of his favorite calibers. Winchester has released a special commemorative box honoring the late President. It is a nickel-plated shell case with a Roosevelt head stamp with a 300-grain Super-X flat point bullet. The Super-X flat point bullet features delayed controlled expansion, deep penetration, and high-retained weight. It is perfect for big game, dangerous game, and African game.

Like it? Want it? Buy it! Item: 52715

If you follow me, and you should, you will notice today that I did not have a fourth item. What would you pick? Tell me about it!

Smith and Wesson 686 revolver left profile

Metal Polishing: Do This, Not That

Professional gunsmiths have a love-hate relationship with Dremel tools. They hate the Dremel because it has wrecked more serviceable firearms than all other tools combined. They love the Dremel tool because, let’s face it, amateur gunsmiths with Dremels are a big part of what keeps professional gunsmiths in business. So you want to do some metal polishing yourself to smooth a trigger or clear up a cloudy spot on a stainless steel barrel, but you don’t want to ruin the thing and have to pay big bucks for someone else to fix your mistake. Put the Dremel down, and let’s talk.

Smith and Wesson 686 revolver left profile

CTD Mike’s S&W 686 after polishing its stainless finish for appearance

We need to make a distinction between polishing for appearance and polishing for performance.  Polishing for appearance should be mostly limited to stainless steel parts, since taking ordinary steels down to bare metal leaves them very vulnerable to rust. The “finish” of stainless steel is nothing more than the fact that all the scratches are small and running in the same direction. The smaller the scratches and the more uniform their direction, the smoother and shinier stainless steel becomes. Polishing for performance means you are attempting to smooth a trigger or remove an imperfection from an important moving part to help increase reliability, and this carries a different and important set of requirements having to do with the hardness type of the metal.

Some metal firearm parts are “through hardened,” meaning that the metal is the same hardness throughout the part. You can file, sand, and polish these parts extensively, removing metal and changing the shape of the part without ill effect. Regardless of the shape of the part or how polished it is, the part will continue to be as tough as it was before you began removing metal. Other parts are either “case hardened” or treated with a coating that hardens the surface of the metal, like the famous “Tenifer” process used on Glocks. In these parts, the metal underneath the surface is soft and protected by a hardening method that only affects the surface. Shaving metal off the surface with a file or sandpaper, or overzealous polishing, cuts through the surface hardening, exposing the soft metal underneath. This is why plenty of amateur trigger jobs feel great for the first 100 rounds and then quickly go downhill from there. An initially great trigger feel accomplished by modifying surface hardened trigger parts will start to feel gritty, then develop false stages, and eventually fail to function entirely. With the surface hardening gone and the soft metal underneath exposed, the parts will batter each other to death in short order and require replacement. Find out what kind of metal your parts are made from before polishing. If they aren’t through hardened, you will only be able to do a minimal amount of polishing, taking care not to cut through the surface treatment, or you’ll render those parts into junk.

Polish Time

Now its time to actually polish. I see you reaching for the Dremel again—alright, alright. You’ll want to use the little cloth wheels, ignore all the other attachments. How fast the cloth wheels do their job depends on what kind of polishing media you use. A rough polishing media will “cut” faster than a fine polishing media. The fine polishing media will allow for a smoother finished product. You want to really load up the wheel with polishing compound because the compound does the work of polishing, not the wheel. A cloth wheel without compound will destroy itself against the metal without polishing anything at all. Hold the part steady by putting it in a bench vise or other fixture, but be careful! Scratching the part when clamping it in the vise is pretty counterproductive, so protect it with plastic vise lip inserts, thick shop rags, or some other method. As you touch the metal part with the whirring polishing wheel, go lightly while holding very firmly to the Dremel with both hands. Pressing down too hard will cause the tool to gain traction suddenly, practically pulling the whole thing out of your hands and potentially ruining the part. Take it slow, take it light, let the polishing media do the work for you.

If you are going to be doing a lot of polishing, I strongly suggest ditching the Dremel altogether in favor of a real buffing wheel, which replaces the tiny little cloth wheel with a 6” to 12” diameter wheel on a spinning fixture. Using the buffing wheel, you hold the part in your hands and press the area to be polished onto the stationary wheel, which spins at high rpm. Very small parts, like a 1911 disconnector, can be ripped out of your hands by the force of the wheel if you push down too hard, so again, grasp the part firmly and press lightly, letting the polishing media do the work. A buffing wheel works very fast, polishing most parts in seconds. Unless you want the skin on your fingers polished off as well, gloves are mandatory.

With some practice and quality equipment in good condition, you can do your own trigger jobs and refine the finish on everything from stainless steel slides to grandma’s family heirloom cutlery. And if you muck it up, don’t worry! There is a friendly gunsmith nearby who probably needs another project to work on.

Samuel Colt Made them Equal

The Colt Single Action Army (also known as the Model P, Peacemaker, M1873, Single Action Army, SAA, and Colt 45) is an American history icon. Immortalized by Hollywood, lawmen, outlaws, and cowboys, the pistol is a lasting symbol of the old west.

Colt designed the gun for the U.S. government service revolver trials of 1873. The military adopted it as their standard issue service revolver until 1892. The SAA uses the .45 Colt cartridge, also known as .45 Long Colt or .45LC. This is not to be confused with .45 ACP commonly used in semi automatic pistols.

Countless companies have produced their own versions of the Colt over the years. It remains one of the most copied revolvers of all time. Hollywood made the gun even more famous in the western movie genre. Famous characters like the Duke, Wyatt Earp, and the man with no name used it to bushwhack bad guys on the silver screen since movies began.

Single Action Army

As the name implies, the gun is single action only, meaning the hammer must be manually cocked back to fire each shot. This is opposed to most modern revolvers, which are double action, allowing the shooter to continually pull back the trigger, consequently cocking the hammer. Many shooters choose to load only five rounds in the cylinder. This is due to the fact that pressure on the hammer could cause a round to go off unexpectedly. Most SAA shooters will tell you the practice of loading five rounds is highly recommended. For rapid-fire situations, it is possible to hold back the trigger and fan the hammer with the shooter’s other hand. Ed McGivern dispelled the myth of the inaccuracy of this procedure by shooting tight groups while fanning his revolver.

Colt produced many variations of the gun. Barrel lengths were available in 4.75 inches, 5.5 inches, as well as the Cavalry standard, original 7.5 inches. Colt branded the shorter barreled revolvers as the “Civilian” or “Gunfighter” model (4.75 inches) and the Artillery Model (5.5 inches). There was also a variant with a sub 4-inch barrel, without an ejector rod unofficially referred to as the “Sheriff’s Model,” “Banker’s Special,” or “Storekeeper.”

Factory Engraved

Colt also offered the Single Action Army in different calibers. To allow for cross compatibility with the Winchester, Colt produced the SAA in .44-40 and dubbed it the “Colt Frontier Six-Shooter.” Additional period calibers for the SAA included .38-40 Winchester introduced in 1884, the .32-20 Winchester introduced in 1884, the .41 Colt introduced in 1885, the .38 Long Colt in 1887, the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum in the 20th Century.

The gun’s precise ergonomic feel added to its popularity. The Peacemaker didn’t care what environment it was being operated in. In rain, snow, sand, or grit, the gun would function. This high level of reliability is just what people in the American west wanted. The SAA’s reputation for accuracy, ruggedness and reliability, as well as it’s role in history, ensured it a seat among the most famous and prolific firearms of all time.

Talking Top Shot: Cool Tricks and Cooler Guns

No Top Shot Interview today, apparently the FAA frowns on using Skype at 35,000 feet! We’ll have eliminated contestant Mike Morelli on next week as part of a double block of interviews. Right here, we’re going to talk about guns on Top Shot, because this show had one of my all time favorite firearms featured – the Smith & Wesson 686 revolver.

Smith & Wesson 686

I’ve had a variety of revolvers through the years, but one of them that I keep coming back to is my 686. My personal 686 is the SSR version, which is a little different in that it has a 4 inch barrel and some “competition” touches, but otherwise it’s exactly the same gun as the one pictured. 686s are great because with light .38 Specials they shoot like a .22, they’re generally quite accurate, and the single action triggers are generally great from the factory. In fact, for training a new shooter the finer points of sight alignment and trigger control with a centerfire handgun, you’d be hard pressed to find a better choice than a 686. While I have objections to using single action mode for self-defense or competition training, I see no issues whatsoever with using it to teach new shooters about sight alignment and trigger control. When used in single action mode, a 686 with a 6 inch barrel is just a really nice thing to shoot. It’s pleasant.

If you’re looking for a great gun for plinking, ICORE competition, or just to get the feel of a proper DA revolver, pick up a 6 inch 686 now. You won’t regret it!

Ruger’s Single Ten

There is just something special about pulling back the hammer on a single action pistol. That tell tale set of three clicks, and the feel of those revolver grips are reminiscent of a day when we were still trying to win the west. Ruger has come up with a revolver to remind us of the good old days. Years ago, Ruger developed the Single Six .22 pistol. This pistol earned a reputation for accuracy and rugged reliability. Recently, Ruger unveiled the Single Ten in .22 Long Rifle. Can you guess what the difference is? That’s right, four more rounds of rock and roll before you have to reload.

The look and feel of the Single Ten is superb. The stainless-steel finish and red-colored wood grips go very well together. Ruger developed the Single Ten on a similar platform to the Single Six. The first thing that jumps out at you when you pick up this pistol is the comfortable feel. The gunfighter grips are ergonomic and the hardwood feel is refreshing and feels stable. An aluminum sleeve separates the two grip panels, which make it impossible to over-tighten and damage the wood. The gun balances well and has a natural feel when pointed downrange. As soon as you look down the barrel, an obvious change is the Williams fiber optic sights that Ruger has installed. The rear sight is fully adjustable and the matte black sights contrast well with the fiber optic inserts, resulting in a very fast and easy to see sight picture. The front sight blade and base are a Single piece, and a Single screw attaches it to the barrel. The fiber optic sights make the Single ten better for hunting and field use due to the increased visibility.

The gun has a barrel length of 5.5 inches and an overall length of 11 inches. Unloaded it weighs in at 38 ounces, making recoil almost non-existent. We measured the trigger pull at 3 pounds, 12 ounces. The barrel has six groves and a 1:14-inch right hand twist. Accuracy was spot on. We managed a very tight group at 25 yards and every round went to point of aim. There were no malfunctions of any kind while firing the weapon.

Loading the Single Ten is a little different from the Single Six. When you open the loading gate, the lock releases and you can rotate the cylinder. At each click, a new chamber appears where the loading gate used to be. If you rotate two clicks, with a little practice, the large gap the loading gate leaves allows you to load two shells at once. This design actually allowed me to load the Single Ten faster than my Single Six, a huge advantage. Unloading spent cartridges was a bit more challenging. When you open the loading gate to extract your spent shells, the cylinder clicks into place, but not entirely. The cylinder has just enough looseness that it does not always line up with the ejection rod, so you have to wiggle the cylinder so it lines up and you can eject the spent casing. This problem was not a huge deal once I got accustomed to knowing just how far to rotate the cylinder and I stopped noticing it after a little practice.

The Ruger Single Ten will make a fine addition to any gun collector who wants a little more ammunition on the ready, but likes that old single action feel. More than just a range toy, the Williams fiber optic sights, increased cylinder capacity, and top-notch accuracy makes the Single Ten an outstanding pistol to have out in the field, in the truck or on the hip.

Ruger 77/357 Ruger 77/357

Doing What You Love

Sometimes, it’s important to remember that shooting is supposed to be fun.  For me, that means hauling the revolvers and putting the pedal to the metal.  Not worrying about “accuracy” or anything silly like that, just good old fashioned six-shooter speed.

Gun: S&W 625 WCA Custom
Ammo: BVAC .45 ACP
Holster and belt: Safariland!

And as usual, Caleb’s wardrobe by Woolrich Elite Tactical, which have so far survived being covered in mud, rained on for five straight hours, set on fire, rolled in the Arizona desert, and generally abused.

Ultimate zombie combo

Last week, Ruger announced the launch of the new Ruger 77/357, which is a bolt action rifle chambered in .357 Magnum.  I got to thinking about this gun, and despite the fact that it only has a 5 round magazine, when paired with a revolver also chambered in .357 Magnum such as the Smith & Wesson 686 you have yourself an almost perfect “zombie combo”, or more accurately you’ve got a great rifle/pistol combination for the woods.

BVAC .357 Magnum 158 grain JHP

The Ruger 77/357 has all the desirable aspects of a great “bug out rifle” – it’s light, coming in at only 5.5 pounds, can readily accept modern optics (and would probably be a pretty sweet pairing with an Aimpoint), and it’s chambered in what is one of the most versatile handgun cartridges in existence.  .357 Magnum is available in pressures from mild cowboy action loads at 1000 FPS with all lead bullets all the way up to 200 grain bear-killing hardcast bullets at ungodly velocities.  However, for a good “general use” round it’s hard to beat a 158 grain JHP, like this one from BVAC.  The BVAC .357 Magnum 158 grain JHP is cruising at around 1200 FPS from a pistol, which means from a rifle you should see a velocity increase of around 100-200 FPS at the muzzle.  That’s plenty of bullet to deal with many of the 4 legged dangers you might encounter during a rural bug out situation, and of course the .357 is well proven as a fight stopping projectile for two-legged danger.

I honestly think that pairing a .357 bolt gun with a revolver makes more sense as a bug out gun combo for 99% of the popular than an AR15 pattern rifle and a hi-cap 9mm.  I like that you only have to carry one kind of ammo, the revolver isn’t dependent on magazines to keep it in action, and while the bolt gun does feed from magazines in an emergency it can be used as a single shot rifle if you lose the magazines.  I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have an AR and a Glock with 400 mags for each gun, but if you’re on a limited budget, it makes more sense to me to drop $650 on the new Ruger 77/357 and another $460 on a Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum than it does to go out and spend the money on an AR and whatever other pistol you need.  .357 ammo is relatively cheap, with lead practice ammo running about the same as .40 S&W and less than 5.56 ammo.  A bolt gun in .357 and a good revolver in the same chambering will solve 99% of the situations I can imagine getting myself into during a short term survival emergency!

USPSA Classifier breakdown: CM99-42 Fast’n Furious

Unlike IDPA, which uses a fixed 90 round course of fire as the classifier, USPSA uses a rotating array of classifier stages.  Usually one classifier stage will be inserted in every club match, and a shooter needs to shoot a minimum of four classifiers in one division to achieve a USPSA classification.  From time to time, clubs will hold special “classifier matches” where the bulk of the stages will be classifiers, which allows shooters who are unclassified to quickly get classified.

Classifier stages themselves are broken down into “skill tests”, and while shooting a classifier well doesn’t mean that you can shoot a 32 round field course well, it does mean that your shooting fundamentals (such as sight picture, trigger control, etc) are generally solid.  Most classifiers will also test your ability to reload, which is imperative for pretty much every division except Open and Limited.  To help with that, we’re going to break down CM99-42 Fast’n Furious.


Fast’n Furious is a very simple classifier stage that can cause a lot of problems for shooters.  Right off the bat, the shooter is faced with a choice – start on the weak hand side of the barricade, or the strong hand side?  I personally choose to start on the weak hand side of the barricade.  While this slows down my draw slightly, it speeds up the reload as it’s much faster for me to reload as I move back to my strong side.  So for decision number 1, I recommend starting on the weak-hand side.

Decision number 2 is “Steel or paper first?”  Once you’ve picked which side to start and finish on, you have to decide whether or not you’re going to shoot the poppers or the paper targets first.  For Revolver and Single Stack shooters, the choice is clear cut: steel first.  If you’re running a revolver, you cannot afford a miss here, but in the off chance that you do it’s better to engage the steel first so that you’ve got enough rounds to get them down.  In a perfect world though, you don’t miss the steel and shoot exactly six rounds on each side.  Production/L10 shooters (and of course Limited and Open) could shoot either first – if I was running L10 I’d draw and shoot the paper first, because I can get a faster presentation on a paper target than I can on the steel popper.  So decision number 2: which targets first is steel for SS/Revo, and paper first for everyone else.

Once you make your decisions on how to shoot it, all that’s left is execution.  The critical parts of this classifier are 1) not missing the steel, 2) sticking your reload, and 3) getting good first shots on your draw and after your reload.  If you can do all that, you’ll post a great score!

J-frame carry gear part 3: lasers

In part 1 and part 2 of the j-frame carry gear, we looked at holsters and ammo for you compact carry revolver.  Today we’ll look at a piece of gear that, while optional, is something I believe every compact revolver should have on it – a laser sighting system. There are a lot of options out there for laser sights for you carry gun, but the clear winner is the Crimson Trace LaserGrip for J-Frames or the Ruger LCR.  I do believe that your carry gun should have night sights, but in an actual self-defense situation at low light, there is no guarantee that you’ll be able to see the front sight, or that you’ll be in a position to use that sight.  The laser grip from Crimson Trace takes that uncertainty out of the situation.  Even if you’re in an unorthodox firing position, you’re still able to make aimed hits on the target, simply by indexing the red dot from the laser on the threat and firing.  Again, it’s an optional item for your gun, and you’ll probably never need to actually use it – but then again, I don’t carry a firearm for self-defense because I’m an optimist.  Having a good holster and powerful defensive ammo doesn’t do you a whole lot of good if when the threat appears you’re not able to get reliable hits on the target.  Having a laser on your defensive firearm allows you to get those hits while keeping your eyes focused on the threat.  This eliminates having to shift between two focal planes (the sights and the threat) and allows you to better asses a defensive encounter in real-time.

I also believe your carry gun should have good night sights on them.  Recently, I came around on XS Sights for carry guns – while I don’t believe they’re the right fit for every gun, for a compact revolver they are a significant upgrade over the usual gutter/front post arrangement that you’ll find.  My personal j-frame wears a Trijicon front night sight and S&W adjustable rear sight.  The goal is to be able to see the sights in any lighting condition, and have the laser as a backup sighting system should the sights be unavailable for any reason.

The compact revolver, be it a S&W J-Frame or a Ruger LCR is a great carry option.  Yes, it takes practice and discipline to master the double action trigger pull, and they hold less rounds than some semi-automatics.  But they’re far more reliable than other pocket .380s on the market, and offer the option of considerably more puissance in a .357 Magnum chambering than a comparably sized or smaller .380.  With a good holster, good ammo, and most importantly good sights and a laser, the compact revolver is one of the best and most reliable carry guns out there.

Colt Army Model 1860 Revolver

I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for sleek black powder revolvers. Old blued steel with an aged patina and smooth worn wooden grips just call out to me. They have history, and stories to tell. Samuel Colt’s 19th century, single-barrel 5- and 6-shot revolvers revolutionized warfare and ended the “Wild” in the Wild West. If any inanimate object could be said to have a soul, it is these beauties.

In the hands of frontier law men, his pistols served justice-dead or alive. In the hands of outlaws, Colt pistols made legends of bushwhackers and bad guys.

And after much use before, during and after the Civil War, it was said of Colt’s rotating cylinder invention and Samuel Colt, “Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal.”

Colt pistols, beginning with the Paterson of 1836, a collaborative effort between Samuel Colt and Texas Ranger Samuel Hamilton Walker, lead to the Colt Walker 1847 and the 1848 Colt Dragoon. And each revolver, in some small or great way, helped change the course of American history.

The Colt Army Model 1860, another blackpowder pistol, perhaps Colt’s most stylish handgun, replaced the Dragoon and became a commercial success, selling nearly a quarter of a million units, mostly to the U.S. Army through the mid-1870s. The Model 1860 was produced from 1860 to 1873.

The Colt Army is a cap and ball, .44 caliber front-loading revolver common to the Civil War. Whereas the LeMat Grapeshot Revolver was used by Confederate forces, the Colt Army Model 1860 was the handgun of choice for Union troops. The Colt Army is chambered in .44 caliber, but its siblings, the Colt Navy, Model 1851 and 1861-virtually the same gun-are chambered in .36 caliber. The Navy-Army titles were handy monikers used for marketing effect by Colt-nothing more.

The Colt Army was favored by Union infantry, cavalry, artillery and even some naval personnel. Using a rear sight notch on the gun’s hammer, most visible when the Colt Army Model 1860 was cocked and a front blade sight, skilled marksmen might expect accuracy out to 200 feet or more.

The Colt Army used lead ball or cone-shaped bullets measuring 0.454 inches in diameter. Colt Army revolvers used 30-plus grains of black powder, a lead bullet and a percussion cap, seated on the nipple, for each of its six chambers. A loading lever ram beneath the gun’s barrel was used to seat the ball. The loading process-as with other blackpowder front-end loaders-was lengthy and not easily performed on horseback at a full trot. Thus, most cavalry carried several loaded pistols into the fray.

The Colt Army weighs about 2 1/2 pounds, unloaded, fully 2 pounds lighter than the Colt Walker. It measures 14 inches overall with an 8-inch barrel (some had a 7 1/2-inch barrel). Depending on the powder charge, the 138-grain lead round has a muzzle velocity of approximately 750 feet per second.

In Civil War enactments and Hollywood films depicting that period, the Colt Army Model 1860 is the most common stage prop handgun. In the film The Outlaw Josey Wales, Wales carries a Colt Army in his waistband, and the Model 1860 was variously used by others characters in that film.

J-Frame carry gear Part 1

Last Tuesday, we talked about some of the accessories you’ll need if you choose to carry a pocket sized .380 ACP pistol. But what if you’re one of the old school guys that carries one of the jillions of S&W J-Frames out there? I still carry a Model 60 when I need to conceal my firearm, and have never felt under armed with 5 shots of .38 Special +P in the chambers. There is plenty of gear that you are going to need though if you do make the decision to tie on a wheelgun as your defensive firearm. The first decision of course being “what kind of holster should I get?” On the blog yesterday we had a great look at inside the waistband holsters, which are probably the best option for concealed carry for a compact revolver. Another option of course are pocket holsters; however these will only work if you have large pockets and choose to carry one of the superlight aluminum framed guns or the polymer framed Ruger LCR.

The J-Frame and Ruger LCR are best carried in an inside the waistband holster like this Bianchi Holster pictured.  The small size and weight of the gun can be concealed even on the hottest of summer days under an untucked t-shirt, and unlike the equivalently sized .380 ACP pistols, the DA revolver offers the option of .38 Special rounds or hot .357 Magnum rounds for personal defense.  Admittedly, a small revolver isn’t the best choice for everyone, as the DA trigger is difficult to master.  They require practice and training to be used to their full potential, but once you do reach that level you’ll find that your little J-frame is an incredibly accurate and powerful defensive firearm.

Next Tuesday, we’ll continuing looking at essential J-Frame gear, with the focus being on methods for getting your little gun back in the fight after you’ve depleted your five rounds.  This is one of the most critical skills to work on if you carry a roundgun, so make sure you check back next week for more!