Even regular readers of The Shooter’s Log can’t read or respond to all of the comments, so we have started a new weekly feature that will recap a sampling of the most active, interesting, or on occasion, randomly selected comments from the previous weeks. Feel free to respond with your two cents at the bottom of this article or by clicking the story link and adding it directly to the discussion.
Reader Comments From Previous Weeks
I used to be a 911 operator and handled several calls from people who thought someone was breaking in. We were trained to always ask if there are any weapons in the house. Often they would tell me they had a gun. I would tell them to keep it with them, and maybe a quick instruction to keep their finger off the trigger until they saw an intruder in the house and actually had the gun pointed at him. I passed on to the responding officers they were armed and they were never upset about that. They’d just ask me to tell the caller, when they got there, not to answer the door with the gun in their hands.
My recommendation is to inform 911 you are armed with a gun. Remember, though 911 operators are not police officers, themselves. They aren’t trained in the law, and don’t have the authority of a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) to give you orders. Their own biases may affect what they say. I have heard my coworkers give a home owner an “order” to “put the gun away now.” You are under no obligation to obey that, if you truly believe you are in danger … and you must, or you wouldn’t have called 911. You are your OWN 1st line of defense. Politely tell the operator you are going to keep the gun on you until the police get there.
When the police arrive, DO obey all of THEIR orders.
You along with a few others here seem to insist as a general rule that property theft alone does not justify deadly force. But lawfully it does, can, and has. I’ve already previously stated in another post that laws exist which protect a citizen’s right to the use of deadly force over property for a good reason.
The purpose behind such legal wisdom stems from centuries of experience establishing that theft of certain property has in-fact led to the loss of victim’s lives or taken away their entire livelihoods; even if it is not realized immediately.
And since the law cannot possibly be written to foresee every possible theft scenario and its result, it is instead written to cover property theft in general which makes deadly force permissible. It is just a fact.
So while the theft of a vehicle may not be considered immediately life threatening to you, it would be to the mother with three children being carjacked at a desolate roadside stop in the middle of a desert. Such isolated abandon could easily lead to that family’s death.
Or maybe an heirloom ring taken by a fleeing burglar also may not be worth a life to you, but it certainly would be to the man needing such an heirloom as collateral to pay for the cancer treatment of his little girl.
Neither of these cases are immediately life threatening, but could still ultimately result in a death later on. The statutes do not expect law abiding citizens to wait out such deadly fates, and thus are justified in taking action immediately, even if it is deadly action.
Simply stated, the law created by decades of wisdom knows best when it tells us we cannot make a blanket rule forbidding all deadly force over property. Because sometimes protecting the property or livelihood it represents is worth the life of the scumbag degenerate who is stealing it.
One last thing, I certainly could never live with myself knowing I was the only one with a gun to put down an “active shooter”, and instead fled leaving everyone else to be massacred. But that’s just me.
Good article. Two things to add.
You should also give a description of yourself to the 911 dispatcher, and what your wearing. That way you don’t get handcuffed or shot by mistake.
In addition, just because someone breaks a window and enters your house, this does not constitute a deadly threat. E.g. it could be a drunk teenager from next door thinking it’s his or her house. Use a bright LED light to blind the person and identify your target, only shoot to stop if its a threat.
NRA Instructor Pistol & Rifle
You are correct. The article is five years old. DRD does make some often rifle though. I have been fortunate enough to test a few. Click here to see all of Cheaper Than Dirt!’s current DRD Tactical offerings.
I am going to be the proverbial fly in the ointment and come off saying that there might just be another interpretation of the meaning of the word “state” and how it is used. What I believe the framers meant had a dual meaning “State” as in a physical manifestation and the “Mental” as in state of mind and or ell being All definitions would apply. When one is shackled by tyrannical edict there can be no “free state” of anything mind spirit body or reality!! I contend these conditions were on the framers mind when they authored the second amendment.
When we have morons who think they are the most important things in America is when we have issues of them trying to second guess what the framers had in mind putting themselves in their places and of course believing they are more intellectual and sophisticated.
NONE of these fools live’s are in jeopardy because of treason against the crown. Their treasonous acts are against the “People” and our Constitution and as most of America is apathetic they can fee free to usurp our tights with impunity!! Apathy gives tacit approval for what government does is acceptable!
Anyone who does not act or sits by waiting for others to act are themselves traitors, maybe not in the traditional sense but traitors to themselves and their ancestors.
~Force Recon Marine
I purchased one of the first P10Cs available in the Chicago area. I was looking to buy my first striker fired pistol, and the CZ did not disappoint. The trigger is excellent. As a lefty, I enjoy the firearm’s truly ambidextrous controls. After cleaning the CZ, I took to the range. I shot out the bullseye with my first full magazine from 10-15 yards. I’m very happy with my purchase!
I’ve learned that you should maintain a clean house. A few times I’ve heard loud noise at night and find myself stumbling over pairs of shoes and junk laying around compromising my pathway and extremely inhibiting my tactical advantage. And #2 having full time flash light permanently located right near you or on your gun. So many times I’ve hopped out of bed stumbled over a messy floor and neglected to have a flashlight , having to turn on wall light giving up my position. # in my experience even when extremely describing my appearance to the dispatcher the cops always act like they are in Vietnam . Once you take out the bad guy I’d just unload my weapon leave it on the counter and just wait sitting on your tailgate in the driveway in a non threatening manner until they show up. In my experience from multiple youth police academies cop training consists of assuming everyone is out to get you, it’s what is used still these days but in my opinion a monolithic training style like this probably should be looked into for updating.
I may not be able the have a “high cap” modern handgun here in Ca., but I can buy the same ammo the LEOs use here. If thier brand and style of ammo is legal for you to buy where you live, that would be great ammo to use for self defense.
Unless your handgun is modified beyond the minor cleanup a gunsmith might do, you should be safe from malicious intent.
I am not a lawyer, but killing someone with a weapon that says “Die MF” written on it, or something in that vein, or using non standard ammo could give the DA and a lawyer in a civil suit a way to ruin your life even more than normally.
I have more of a conflict with employing “deadly force” in some attempt at preventing theft. ‘Things,’ including vehicles are replaceable/retrievable, once you ventilate some ‘human,’ in a ‘deadly’ fashion, they are not! Of course, any use of force by the thief changes that paradigm. I carry 24/7, and by God’s grace have never encountered a situation that required I access that ‘deadly’ piece. It is there, primarily and ONLY, to defend my life or that of another against some “life threatening” event. Many advise, even in an ‘active shooter’ situation, that you first look to “escape,” getting yourself and yours to safety, only engaging as a LAST resort to save your life or another’s when escape is not available! In this ‘theft of a vehicle,’ or other items, the possible best outcome would be some warning given, from cover, the perp bailing, or, you simply being the BEST witness to the event, paying close attention to any details you might pass on to the “authorities!”
This has been great read. I think we can all agree no one gun is right for all, just know how to use what you carry. I don’t think I am an armchair commando, I am a retired Police Officer and still work part-time as a Deputy Sheriff (yes I know, it’s that in the blood thing). I have carried several issued weapons in my career the longest of which was a Beretta 92FS. Liked that gun very much but didn’t like the 9mm so much (my opinion) but the gun was great. At that department we were incouraged to make use of the range. The instructors would work with you one on one to correct any problems you encountered, you just had to show up. We quailified twice a year day, night and combat and still people failed because they would not take advantage of an open range and good instructors. I loved to shoot (and you can’t beat free) so I was there as much as I could manage. I learned my weapon front to back and inside out, how in reacts and what did and did not like. And yes the 92s had a slide mounted safety but I NEVER EVER carried it on safe, if you had to draw you gun it was for a reason. Training and knowing your carry gun will stop the, IT MIGHT GO OFF, bullshit. I trusted my gun through training, training and more training and it kept me alive. I was able to earn “EXPERT” status but that was due the great instructors and my time spent on the range.
Because I carried a 92FS on duty I bought a Beretta Cougar in .45 for off duty. While smaller and in .45 it had all the same features and controls and was easy to master due to my training with the 92FS. I still carry it to this day it came with great sights and good grip and feel. It has very soft recoil for a .45 due to it’s twin captured recoil springs and rotating barrel lockup which keeps the barrel on axis with your line of sight and sight picture. Great for making follow-up shots and staying on target. All my carry guns have been stock because if you pick a good gun, most will have what you need like good sights. You will notice I said a “good” gun not high dollar “trick trap”. It is up to you to train with what you have and learn how to use it. Most stock guns will shoot better than the people shooting them because they will not train with them. However, they will buy a truck load of stuff to put on them they don’t need and still don’t shoot any better.
We were one of the first departments in our area to use Simunitions in combat training. That was some of the most real training I have ever experienced. All you had to do is change your barrel and you were ready. You trained with your gun, your holster and your mags. When you fired your gun cycled and you could and did run your ammo dry when stressed. This training was very real because there is a pain factor, you did not want to get shot with these things. They hurt like hell and would draw blood (I still have the scars to prove it). You treated the bad guys like real bad guys because you did NOT want to get shot. There were no training Rambo’s in these classes.
Sorry I went so long. I said all that to say this, It’s not the fancy gun, it’s the shooter. I am not a “John Wick” but I you make yourself put in the time you will get good and be ready when the time comes. And training does not mean drop a lot of cash on ammo there are all kinds of training systems that cost nothing. Dry firing for trigger control, draw practice from different clothes and holsters to acquiring your sights and sight picture when dry firing. All these things will make you a better no matter what you shoot. TRAINING, TRAINING and more TRAINING then go to training. Thanks Rick.
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