Long Distance Personal Defense Guns

By John Bibby published on in Firearms, Safety and Training

Most of us who carry daily make a choice between comfort and ease of shooting with our choice in EDC pistols. I happen to carry a full size M&P 9mm. As an early concealed carry person, I was sure carrying such a gun would be super uncomfortable and noticed by everyone. Over time, I gradually learned how to conceal my sidearm better and more comfortably. It has also become plainly obvious to me that while open carrying, many people don’t see a full-size gun on my hip.

My girlfriend is an LEO. She carries a full-size gun as her duty weapon—Glock 22. For her concealed carry option, she is much more comfortable with a Glock 43. She is a small girl and concealing a full size is not realistic, especially in anything resembling fashionable women’s clothes. She is also a few months away from becoming an School Resource Officer (SRO) for her Sheriff department. That got me thinking about her other duty weapon, an AR-15.

I am a reluctant convert to the AR-15. For the longest time, I didn’t want a rifle with a bullet less than 130 grains. With the purchase of my first AR (about 10 years ago), it really began to change my mind. My late wife was able to utilize the AR (5.56) platform with much more accuracy, endurance, and no recoil pain or flinch. Then, I discovered non-standard calibers for ARs.

My collection has grown like a bunch of unattended rabbits. I currently have many 5.56 configurations and at least one AR in .300 BLK, 9mm, and .45 ACP.

The Sheriff department that my girlfriend works at has an SOP of keeping the issued AR in the trunk of the patrol car. This is as much to do with not scaring anyone by walking it into the school each day as it is with the budget not stretching far enough to have a gun safe and an onsite AR in the school SRO office. As often happens, my mind mulled over the concept of appropriateness of the AR as the choice for the tight confines of a school.

It occurred to me that the familiar manual of arms for the AR makes it a great choice; but the 5.56 caliber might not be optimal. The ballistics of 5.56 are not great for close work and offers a huge chance of over penetration, incredibly loud muzzle blast, and dramatic performance losses with less than a 16-inch barrel. By switching to a pistol round, most of those issues will be mitigated while still retaining the familiar manual of arms.

In a school setting, most engagements will be within 25-50 yards. That is definitely a long shot in a high stress environment with a duty pistol. Transitioning to a 10-12” barrel AR chambered in 9mm would make a lot of sense, especially when her department trades their Glock 22s for Glock 17s. They could have ammo and magazine compatibility quite easily. Making this choice would increase accurate engagement range and decrease the size of the platform for easier maneuvering in the tight confines of hallways and classrooms.

My suggestion would be to use an AR-15 pistol that runs Glock magazines. Equip the pistol with primary 1-4 x 24 scope from Vortex, Sun Optics, Leupold and / or a 45° offset reflex or red dot sight with instant on capability: Aimpoint, Holosun, Primary Arms… and a pistol brace such as the Gear Head Works Tailhook Mod 2. The brace would provide an adjustable stock option. Officers of different sizes can adapt the firearm to them instead of the other way around. Having the 10”+ barrel would match point of aim / point of impact (with a 25 yard zero) out to 100 yards, with Speer 124-grain short barrel cartridges. Other loads would provide similar performance.

Distance (Yards) Velocity (FPS) Energy (FT-LB) Trajectory
0 1,300 465 -2.5 in
25 1,228 415 0
50 1,165 374 1
75 1,112 340 0.4
100 1,062 313 -1.9
125 1,029 291 -6.1

For tight confines, such as a classroom or hallway, the disadvantages of the standard 5.56 AR-15 stand out. By switching to a pistol caliber (specifically 9mm), most of those disadvantages disappear and no real disadvantages occur. Even if you leave the tight confines for the more open space of the recess field, the range of the shots taken would rarely exceed 50-75 yards.

This would almost directly transfer to home defense, especially for those who live on a lot larger than .20 acres. I currently utilize a .300 BLK pistol for that purpose, mainly because I do not have a 9mm suppressor and I do have one in 30 caliber.

What is your opinion of a pistol caliber carbine for engagements out to 100 yards or a .300 BLK? Share your answers in the comment section.

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Comments (70)

  • Emery F Rice III

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    MJ, I am not trying to pick a fight, with any one. I simply offered what the Author asked for, an opinion, nothing more. As to your Parkland tragedy, I cant tell you how sorry I am , that that had to even happen. But, having said that, I , in fact, did call Peterson a coward. I just happened to have done it , in a different way. I am not in the habit of calling, any man a coward, that I have never met, I was not there, and I do not know the full story, but, I felt I was close enough to make the point. If I am going to call a man a coward, I am going to do it face to face. Hanging the coward logo on a mans head, is an awful heavy load, for him to carry, given the fact, that it is going to stick to him like glue, that is never, ever going to come off, even after he is dead. His family, is going to be destroyed, for something, they had no control over. When you add up all of the people that you could hang some blame on, it ends up to be a boat f]load of people. Add in the David Hoag thing, and you have a really ugly tragedy. I am truly sorry your community, and the rest of the nation had to go thru that. Good luck gentlemen. I really hope you find the answer to this problem, because I don’t have it !, only an opinion, and that is all I was asked for

    Reply

  • Emery F Rice III

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    Gentlemen, I am going to back out of this, It just accured to me that the individual with 28 years as a school administrator, just trumped my 50+ years of building my own weapons, and a least half of that time loading my own ammo. I also just realized that I wasted an awful amount of range time, and money in getting to the point of being able to shoot MOA. I guess I shouldn’t have spent the last 15 years working as a defense subcontractor either. Because all you really need is a magic 6 Inch circle, that you are likely to hit a vital spot with., and you are good to go. Thanks for all the latest and greatest Intel.

    Reply

    • Jaron

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      No, you’re bowing out because you spouted a lot of indefensible nonsense and you’re claiming that people calling you out on it are “attacking” you, despite you insulting them.

      You embarrassed yourself, twice, trying to correct Belcher on bullets but didn’t bother to notice he was responding to the article, not you.

      Then you flat out made a fool of yourself with your “1 inch at any distance” statement. ANY distance? You want +/- 1″ groups at 600 yards? 1000 yards? Even assuming you meant “You have no business taking a shot unless you know you can hit within 1″ of your intended target using whatever weapon you have at the time, at your current distance to target, and any other factors of your current situation,” that’s still ridiculous. These are beat cops armed ( at best ) with lightly customized carbines, not SEAL snipers with $5000 bolt rifles.

      Instead of clarifying your meaning, you doubled down by throwing out “1 MOA” everywhere. Yes, we have lots of MOA capable shooters in America. I’m one of them. The vast majority of them depend on at least four things in order to do it: specialized firearms with high magnification optics, specialized ammo, a stationary target, and a fully supported bench rest shooting position. You’ll notice that’s almost the exact opposite of how someone will likely engage an active shooter: standing, possibly walking, shooting off hand, reflex or low-level prism optic ( or possibly stock irons ), using issued bulk ammo, moving target, and possibly while under fire. But according to you, they should be able to do all that and still hit a lima bean at 50 yards every time. You first, chief. As interesting as it might be to have all our SROs carrying DMRs and be able to pass FBI HRT quals, that’s completely unrealistic.

      Add to this your idiotic idea that you have to be a 1 MOA shooter to hit a 6″ target ( see a 6″ target at 100 yards is actually 6 MOA, meaning a 5 MOA shooter would have a really good chance of hitting it ), and statements like “we have LOTS of MOA capable cops and border patrol” followed immediately by “LEOs and deputies shooting point blank hitting nothing” and you could see why someone might doubt your knowledge and experience on the topic.

      There may be a small chance you have the experience you claim you do and are hampered by not being able to express yourself clearly. But as is, you’re coming off like a keyboard warrior that’s played too much CoD and watched too many wannabes on YouTube.

      Reply

    • dprato

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      Great reply to a guy whose ego is far larger than his ability to apply what he has learned over the years in a common sense way. He is obviously more interested in his opinions however indefensible then those who can look at a situation and come up with a reasonable solution and explanation.
      Great job!!!!

      Reply

  • Craig C.

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    PTR PDW fitted with an modified HK91 collapsible stock. While requiring a NFA, You have an MP5 size .308 win. Accurate well beyond 200 yds with muzzle energies that exceed any 5.56, 7.62×39 or enimic 9mm.
    The recoil is suprisingly light, with the only draw back being muzzle flash.

    Reply

  • HW Stone

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    I am trying not to dive into this thread, but somehow I get the feeling that “1 MOA” is being misapplied here.

    At one hundred yards one MOA shooting means all rounds fired are found within a circle somewhat smaller than 1.1 inches in diameter.

    Reply

    • dprato

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      You are correct about the 1 MOA and that is precisely why in my own comments I totally disagree with Emery Rice III.

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      HW, I am not sure that it is being misapplied, as much as it is not understanding what I am referring to. With a few individuals twisting anything I give input on, into something that I never said, its kinda hard keeping up with all the bullshit, that’s going on here. The only point I wanted to make, is that if I was going to have someone, other than myself protecting any of MY children, then, I wanted that person to be capable of placing that round, where is was intended to go. Not, just a guess, or likely to go. If your willing to let just anybody out there, going for the good oll spray and pray. Then by all means, go look at your 99%, but, just not around our local school, as we feel that we have a few better options. The vast majority of the people that make up our county, are, either LEO’s, Border Patrol, Sheriffs Deputy’s, Ice personnel, Swat personnel and a very large group of people who are trained, and conceal carry licensed. Nice problem to have.

      Reply

    • HW Stone

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      The point that I keep getting hung up on is a situation where distances are unknown, targets require sorting, identification, and confirmation, and you might be subject to hostile fire from the original intruder(s) and possible incorrect identification of you by another responder– and trying to apply known ranges, distances and target fully identified beforehand, the rounds to be fired at your leisure with no one shooting at you.

      I am just unable to translate that one minute of angle taking your time in comfort at the range to apply to99% unknown situations where a few seconds of doubt might wind up with another one or two of the persons on site dying.

      Reply

  • Mark

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    I wonder about the initial question, especially from a “school protection officer” standpoint.
    Inside a school, I would prefer to see .45ACP or 10mm rather than 9mm, even with the new Honey Badger ammo.
    Outside the building, why are you engaging at 100 yds?
    The only time I could see that would be at a football game, across or down the field…and maybe at track and field events. At that point, larger caliber and maybe even a bit slower moving might fit the bill.
    Your job should be training the teachers to barricade in place, and making the perp come to you. If the perp is 100 yds out, that is a job for the LE.

    Reply

  • JD

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    FN answered this question a long time ago, 5.7 in a P90. Its what all the Euro police use. Much shorter than an AR, very low recoil, 50rds per mag, and LE ammo can penetrate low level armor. There are more guns out there than ARs and Glocks…

    Reply

    • HW Stone

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      My first quibble with the P90 is the proximity of the muzzle blast to your face. It is one weapon that should have had that as an SOP option. The second quibble is the light weight of the rounds, and a serious downslide in velocity.

      Semi is much easier to handle than full, but you either need a suppressor or a sixteen inch barrel, both of which detract from the small size advantage. I got to watch a Sheriff’s Department demo of the P90 where the Sheriff was less tech and more demo. The FN guy thought they were going to a range, but the Sheriff headed out to a farm where there had been major wild hog issues.

      The 5.56x45mm was marginal, the little super light 31 grain bullet out of the P90 really was not enough.

      On the other hand, I sincerely doubt any of us will find ourselves defending students against a herd of wild hogs, so that might be moot.

      Reply

    • Jaron

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      The reason the Euros use the P90 is because it’s a local company, not because it’s so much better than the AR-15/M4 platform ( they’re both great in their own ways ).

      A big reason listed here in favoring the AR, and a reason I agree with, is the manual of arms. A lot of Americans and LEOs already know how to handle an AR. Safety switch, magazine swap, charging, etc. That’s not to say a P90 is difficult to use, but it still takes some training time to adjust proficiencies.

      Most law enforcement agencies also already have a stock of ARs. Their armorers can rechamber a few into SRO SBRs much cheaper than buying multiple new P90s.

      Reply

  • Maglige

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    I once was, but now I’m no longer fond of pistol calibers in long guns. If you are trying to put people down quickly, especially with multiple threats, or, a bullet at a velocity of 1300fps will not induce hydrostatic shock, and a CNS hit is necessary to immediately stop the threat. A drugged up or determined suspect can do a lot of damage hit with an eventually lethal round of handgun caliber in a non-CNS hit. When I switched our AR’s at the airport over to shorter barrels I did chronograph testing. In an airport across a tarmac or in a concourse we might engage at 100 yards, even more quite possibly. I wanted 2500 fps muzzle velocity to ensure impact velocity of a minimum of 2,000fps, with 2,200 being the ideal minimum at 100 yds.

    Reply

  • Emery F Rice III

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    Ladies, and Gentlemen, The main point, is not the weapon. It is, not possible to find the perfect weapon, to use for all of the different mass shootings. Look at Vegas, the bar, and sandy hook. All very different. The point, is, if you cannot hit within 1 Inch of you point of aim, at any distance, then you have no business taking the shot. The last thing you want, is to be the person who cause’s collateral damage. I have said it before, train with a weapon, that shoots straight, and train and train and train, some more. If you cannot understand this, then you should not be carrying the weapon, in the first place

    Reply

    • dprato

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      Well if you can’t shoot unless you are one inch within your point of aim you have just eliminated 99% of the people that I see shoot at the shooting ranges I have attended and that is a lot of people. Furthermore, if you aim center of mass or center of head, if you draw a four inch to six inch circle you are very likely to hit a vital organ. That being said I think your comment is off base and totally out of the reality of what has happened in the real world. I do agree one always has to be concerned about collateral damage since you are responsible for the bullets and where they go. Also, if you over penetrate even in that one inch guideline you have set for us, you can have collateral damage. I am just wondering what your own personal experience has been to give us advice like that.

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      Well, I think your 99%, is off base. I sure don’t see that at the ranges, that I use. Did it ever occur to you, that the people at your range, were practicing, so they could shoot 1 MOA ? We have LEO;s, Border patrol agents, and several other civilians, that shoot MOA, All the way out to 300 yards. But, that takes practice, and a lot of it.Further more, if you draw a 6 inch circle, on a mans head, if you cant shoot 1 MOA, your very likely to miss him. So, how many shots are you willing to take, guessing on where your bullet is going, in a school full of children and adults ? I am sorry that you have a problem with my advice on training and practicing, but, that is how you have to do it, if you want to shoot better. As far as the real world goes, we have LEO’s hiding behind trees, State police shooting Sheriff’s Deputy’s and point blank range shoot out where 23 rounds were fired, and NOBOGY, hit anything.
      My point is, that if your not capable of shooting 1 MOA, at least 50 yds,, then keep your weapons away from my kids school. You, just missed the whole point. The schools don’t need special weapons, what they need are people who can shoot straight, hit what they are aiming at, and have the balls to face the shooter. I resent the comment that I set a bar for you. Every man and women who chooses to EDC, sets there own bar. War can teach you some very ugly things

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      That, dprato, is exactly what I am getting at. Using your statement that 99% of the people you see at the range, cannot shoot 1 MOA. Those people do not belong in a school with a gun. Having said that, it still leaves the other 1%. There are 347 million guns in the USA. 40 million more that people. So, taking that 1% that can shoot less 1 MOA, or better, gives us a 1 million person bank of people to make SRO;s out of them. Those are the people that I want protecting my children. It takes a lot more than a good shot to be a qualified SRO. I would love to continue this, but, there are some things , you just cant fix.

      Reply

    • mj

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      Dude…nobody else around…take the shot…take the shot!

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      Well, mj, if that’s the way you look at it, I would be wearing body armor, if I were you. because if you cant shoot 1 MOA, you had better hope, that he cant either, But, to an extent, I would most likely agree with you. Why do you think the LEO in Florida, hid, Most likely because he knew he could not shoot straight, or that he knew he was going to get shot, himself. Unfortunately, you are never going to have a school shooting, exactly the same way. The majority of the shooters, are taking their own lives. All I tried to do, was offer the author an alternative. NOT advice, as one has said. But, I thank you for your opinion.

      Reply

    • mj

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      Emery, your statements aren’t quite accurate about Florida, if you’re referring to my backyard, Parkland.

      LEO was allowed to either enter or not thanks to the piece of shit Sheriff Israel who literally changed their directive from “Shall” engage to “May” engage.

      The pussies there that day especially Officer Scot Peterson (what is it about people named (scott peterson/lacy, drew peterson etc)…
      Scot decided he’d rather NOT engage letting kids die so he can collect $10k a month in his pension. Just like the following other BCS’s. A bunch of PUSSIES!!!

      Coral Springs arrived, pushed them out of the way and ran in to fully engage the spineless worthless shooter whom already left the building.

      Had they engaged, missed, even hit an incorrect target, the outcome surely could have been much more favorable. We’ll never know, but NOT engaging is never an option when you take an oath…uh, unless your weakling Sheriff makes it an ‘option’.

      Reply

    • dprato

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      First off I think you need to get into the real world. The fact that a person is a police officer doesn’t make them a better shot. Check out the video where the cop was teaching a firearm safety class and shot himself in the foot or the video of the Vietnam Veteran who killed a cop who did everything wrong on a traffic stop.
      Then consider what usually is going on in a school shooting with the chaos and confusion and tell me that a cop shooting under those circumstances and most likely form a standing position shouldn’t shoot unless he is sure of his 1moa. I worked with school resource officers when I volunteered for my local police department over a 4 year period of time. My background was as a school administrator for 28 years so I worked with them on things like school security. I doubt seriously that any of those folks would agree with you that they had to be able to shoot 1moa during a shooting emergency or wait for someone who could which is ridiculous. I bet there are plenty of people including myself who can shoot better than most cops. You never mentioned what your own experience or background is or where you get your information from. So in essence you are saying if you can’t shoot 1 moa then let the shooter keep shooting. Where did you get this notion that most situations involve a 25 to 50 yard shooting distance? Personally, I don’t think you have a clue about what you are talking about. I would love to see those border patrol people get that 1 moa in a free standing position with people running all over the place. Who are you kidding?

      Reply

    • mj

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      @ Dprato, you nailed it. Active shooter ain’t about hitting a piece of paper. As taught in self defense, do something, not nothing.

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      dprato, or what ever your name is. I have a quick question, for you, before I dropout of this. WHERE do you get the pure crap, that flows out of your mouth, so easily? You learn that as an administrator? You, really, need to learn to read, again. No where did I ever make the comment, that I thought Police officers were good shots. As an awful lot of them, cant hit anything at PBR. NO Where did I ever say that most school shootings happen at 25 to 50 yards. So, twisting some ones words around to make you look brighter than you are, is insulting. But it does reinforce , not only mine, but an awful lot of people around this country, on our views of just what we think of some of the School administrators, that have managed to slip into their positions, under the radar, one way or the other. However should you ever feel the need to test my experience with fire arms, then feel free to stop into our range, for your very own demonstration. Just, bring a lot of cash, cause this, sir, is gonna cost you now. So, Who is kidding who, now ?

      Reply

    • dprato

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      Still haven’t identified yourself or your credentials to give us your expert advice on something you know nothing about. Diversion doesn’t work nor your BS. Have a good day and save us the pontification. Obviously the number of people on here who disagree with you should be enough to convince you we don’t agree with your nonsense.

      Reply

    • Emery F Rice III

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      Still no comment from you as to offering, nothing of your own to the Author, or is your claim to fame spreading false and misleading statements about quotes I have never made. I also see, that you still haven’t learned to read. I did offer up my credentials, just not to your dumb ass, given the fact, that you cant read. There on the blog. I also noticed that you didn’t accept my invitation for a little demonstration? What’s the matter, having a problem putting your money where your mouth is? Mr. Administrator/expert on SRO’s, that you have only talked to. Don’t your local deputies seek you out at your range, to zero their service AR’s, like mine do ? You, talk about Diversion, your badgered replies to me are so full of shit, I am surprised that you found the room in your reply to fit that in. When you get the balls, and the cash, get back in touch. I will give you the time and location, but until then kYFMS
      Like I said before, You just cant fix, some things, like being stupid. As far as not knowing what I am talking about, your simple mind couldn’t hold half of what I know about weapons, and that doesn’t even touch shooting ability, or knowledge on building them, or repairing them. instead of badgering people who try to offer their opinion on things, without offering anything of your own, try reading up on a few things. never mind, that’s going to be a problem because of your reading ability. Before you attempt to take me up, on my offer, you might want to check out some ballistics on the Ar15 10.5 running the new Speer 308150blkgdb. pretty impressive. When its chambered up in the 16 INCH, its pure Gold. Oh, one last thing. I found out where you came up with all of the crap, that you said I said. You picked the 25-50yd up from the author, you then picked the 100yd thing up from another post reply, from someone. I believe that you just made the shit up in your head about saying that I thought all cops were good shots, cause you sure as S–T didn’t get it from me. Guess we all know who’s kidding who ! I do. I would add a little more, but my side is starting to hurt, from LMAOAY

      Reply

    • Jaron

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      You know, acting like the victim of slander while you’re completely badmouthing someone back tends to be hypocritical. “How dare you not respect me and my legendary knowledge, you ignorant, insignificant maggot?!?” Yeah, real productive and convincing.

      And despite your bravado and smoke screens, the only credentials you’ve provided are vague:
      50+ years building your own firearms
      25 years hand loading ammo
      15 years as defense contractor

      Just like most everything else you’ve said, these are pretty meaningless w/o extra context. Building firearms does not automatically translate to firearm shooting skill. It doesn’t guarantee the quality of the arms you built, good or bad. It doesn’t say how many you’ve built or how many different types/platforms. And just because you may have been doing it for 50 years doesn’t mean you’re better at it than someone who only built their first AR last year. I’ve seen college sophomores with better technical insight and instincts than 30 year database veterans.

      Same goes with hand loading. Just because you’ve been doing it doesn’t mean you’re particularly good or bad at it. It could mean you have advanced knowledge of pressure, burn rates, free bore, and ballistics. It could also mean you do nothing more than follow Hornady recipes in Quick Load.

      A “defense contractor” is a nebulous term that could mean anything from a PMC commander stationed in downtown Mosul to the volunteer night security guard at the local assisted living center. It doesn’t guarantee any leadership abilities, tactical expertise, marksmanship, or really anything else.

      Now, since I have a hunch you won’t try to verifiably prove your experience, I suggest, if you want to be taken seriously, you demonstrate your expertise by putting forth and demonstrating points with logically reasoned arguments backed up by supporting facts. Simply yelling, “This is how it has to be and how dare you question my brilliance!” isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself.

      Whether or not you’re actually a sub-MOA shooter is irrelevant, and I don’t think anyone is questioning that. What we are questioning is your requirement of being a 1 MOA shooter before engaging an active shooter. Just because someone is a good shot from the bench doesn’t mean they’re a good shot while standing and moving around. Just because someone can shoot a precision rifle with a huge scope doesn’t mean they’re proficient with an iron sight carbine. Just because someone’s a good shooter at a calm, leisurely range doesn’t mean they can do it quickly in high stress situations. Expecting someone to shoot MOA or better off hand while standing is already unrealistic ( if you want me to explain the biomechanic reasons why, I’d be happy to, but right now I’d rather save the time and space ). Expecting them to do it all the time, every time, under pressure, when lives are on the line, and they’re possibly taking fire is absolutely asinine.

      Reply

    • dprato

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      You are right on once again. The interesting thing is that the philosophy of dealing with an active shooter has changed from the police departments no less. Back a while they would say call the police and then realized in most cases it was impossible for them to respond in time to do anything but clean up and investigate. Now the philosophy is to engage the shooter if at all possible to minimize the damage. And just for the record, I have an uncle, and four cousins in law enforcement and when I volunteered for the Longmont, CO PD one of the things I did with them was to be an observer of their in school building training for dealing with active shooters. I wonder if our friend Emery can say the same and by the way the issue of being a 1 MOA shooter never came up in any of that training. So your analysis of Emery is right on target.

      Reply

  • Emery F Rice III

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    Mr. Belcher, If you would take the time, and research the CORRECT bullet, that I am referring to, you will find you a wrong ! The Bullet that I was speaking about is the NEW Speer 308150BLKGDB. That stands for ” 308 caliber, 150grain bullet, made, especially for 300 Black out, and it is Gold Dot Bonded. It is NOT a 3″ short barrel cartrage.

    Reply

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